Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Daseal;1074984]I'll take it back. The Military wasn't as high in the spending as I thought. I guess the statistic was government employees, which included Military. 104M worth of food stamps used on Military bases in 2012, which I believe is the most recent number.

A Private is given approximately 20K in salary and approximately 20K in food/housing incentives from the military.

I'll take back my statement.[/quote]


maybe we should be talking about Wal-Mart who's employee need welfare to survive yet work full time .

[URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/walmart_n_4466850.html"]How Walmart's Low Wages Cost All Americans, Not Just Its Workers[/URL]


The size of Wal-Mart is sometimes difficult to visualize. To put it into some context, consider the following: 100 million U.S. shoppers patronize Wal-Mart stores every week. Wal-Mart has twice the number employees of the U.S. Postal Service, a larger global computer network than the Pentagon, and the world's largest fleet of trucks. Americans spend about $36 million dollars per hour at the stores. Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other company in the world, capturing one of every four dollars spent on food in the U.S. The average American family of four spends over $4,000 a year there. Each week, it has 200 million customers at more than 10,400 stores in 27 countries. If the company were an independent country, it would be the 25th largest economy in the world.
Given the sheer size of Wal-Mart, how it pays "associates" is likely to have an outsized impact on their local and state communities, according to a number of studies.
Wal-Mart's low wages have led to full-time employees seeking public assistance. These are not the 47 percent, lazy, unmotivated bums. Rather, these are people working physical, often difficult jobs. They receive $2.66 billion in government help each year (including $1 billion in healthcare assistance). That works out to about $5,815 per worker. And about $420,000 per store. But the federal and state aid varies widely; in Wisconsin, a study found that it was at least $904,542 a year per store. (See the accompanying chart.)

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Yup...

I know someone with 2 kids working at walmart. She has a degree in dental hygiene, but she refuses to give up her walmart job.

Why?

Because if she did she'd get just enough of a raise to no longer qualify for gov't assistance, which would net out as less money for her and her kids.

I tried to explain the longer term benefits of moving into an actual career and off of gov't assistance... within 2 or 3 years she should easily be paid enough to net out ahead - not to mention the non-monetary benefits of moving your household off the welfare program.

She can't process it. Can't risk going a year with slightly less money.

So she's forever stuck at walmart, and on Gov't assistance.

I know the GOP gets lambasted for the way they characterize welfare recipients - in many ways it's ignorant. But the cry from the left that the abuse and incentive to stay on the system doesn't exist is equally as ignorant.

And so far the only real answer the left has given is to raise minimum wage. And the people pushing for it the most (ie: the people actually on minimum wage) don't seem to get how that nets out long term for them (not very good...)

Instead of this person being a productive member of our society and raising 2 kids in such a household, she's living off gov't assistance and raising her kids in the same manner. We're paying for 1/2 of their 'household income' instead of it being earned via a job she's perfectly capable of doing.

The. System. Is. Broken.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

the system is broken.

reducing the amount of food stamps a recipient gets isnt fixing the problem though.

complex issue.

a politically unfavorable issue as well imo.

If you are for welfare reform = mean and out-of-touch. Against welfare reform = bleeding heart politician letting tax money go to waste.

a lot like the runaway costs of healthcare before ACA, a president/party needs to step up and make some unfavorable decisions to try and reform welfare. a lot like the runaway cost of healthcare, someone needs to put their head on the chopping block and do the right thing for this country.

unfortunately that person will take a lot of immediate attacks and wont be in office in 10-20 years when the benefits of those tough decisions can be appreciated.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=over the mountain;1075020]the system is broken.

reducing the amount of food stamps a recipient gets isnt fixing the problem though.

complex issue.

a politically unfavorable issue as well imo.

If you are for welfare reform = mean and out-of-touch. Against welfare reform = bleeding heart politician letting tax money go to waste.

a lot like the runaway costs of healthcare before ACA, a president/party needs to step up and make some unfavorable decisions to try and reform welfare. a lot like the runaway cost of healthcare, someone needs to put their head on the chopping block and do the right thing for this country.

unfortunately that person will take a lot of immediate attacks and wont be in office in 10-20 years when the benefits of those tough decisions can be appreciated.[/quote]

I agree completely. It would seem to be a situation ripe for compromise in the interest of what is best for the country... for whatever reason compromise has been made a dirty word (not just by politicians - there are a lot of actual voters that are firmly entrenched in one side so much they view compromise as a synonym for defeat...)

You have to find a way to de-incentivize being on the system without doing harm to those that truly need it.

I have ideas... how about being on gov't assistance = doing work for the government? You need tax payer money to 'live' - then pick up trash on the side of the road 10 hours a week, etc. What they're doing and how much they have to do can easily be modified to strike a balance between pushing people towards getting off the program and recklessly punishing people for falling on hard times.

Or how about making a stamp on your ID that means you're not on welfare? Restrict the purchasing of certain items to those with the stamp - alcohol, cigarettes, etc. Lottery tickets... god, the number of people that waste money on lottery tickets... We can't make those on welfare get that stamp, that would be too 'humiliating', so why don't we do something to those not on the system?

We need to cut where food stamps are accepted... My local pizzeria should not have a sign that says "Now Accepting EBT Cards!" EBT cards should not have transactions from strip clubs on them...

The problem of solving poverty in the US is hard and complicated, and ultimate probably only gets solved by having an education system that's worth a crap (lol - good luck.)

But there's plenty we can do to curb the waste and make the system more efficient and/or have better results. But first we need to determine an acceptable level of waste so we have a goal to shoot for and a way of measuring our progress towards that. We also need an acceptable level of hardship we place on legitimate welfare users (those not abusing the system) because that's going to happen and without know what is acceptable to our society we have no way of measuring success/failure of changes and we continue in this blind-monkey-throwing-darts mentality that got us in this mess to start with.

Those are hard conversation to have, so I have zero faith they'll ever happen.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

there are 2 separate social welfare programs - food stamps (SNAP) and cash assistance. I believe both can be used/accessed on a person's EBT card.

food stamps cant be used at ATMs or used at strip clubs etc. pretty sure you cant buy prepared food or sweets etc. fairly restrictive.

Cash assistance money (however) can be withdrawn from pretty much any ATM (i think). its like the gov't deposits $180/mo in a person's debit card account. they should just do away with cash assistance and make it all SNAP .. but then ppl wouldnt be able to buy gas ... and if you allowed ppl to used SNAP for gas there would be a ton of people standing at gas stations offering to buy you $20 worth of gas on their EBT card for $10 cash etc ...

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Every natural born US citizen gets 1 million dollars at birth from the government and nothing else the rest of their life ,how about that ?:food-smil

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

I wonder what would happen if all these giant corporations all started paying their employees actual livable wages and maybe scarified a small % of their profits. Does a CEO of a company really need to make 300 times more than their bottom level employees? How much is enough?

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Mattyk;1075249]I wonder what would happen if all these giant corporations all started paying their employees actual livable wages and maybe scarified a small % of their profits. Does a CEO of a company really need to make 300 times more than their bottom level employees? How much is enough?[/quote]

One of the many "benefits" of capitalism. Makes sure the rich only get richer and the poor get poorer.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

it seems that US companies are doing these "inter-mergers" with foreign companies to avoid paying taxes in the US since the corporate loop holes are being targeted for reform.

[url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/02/big-pharma-skips-to-the-u-k-to-avoid-taxes.html]Big Pharma Skips to the U.K. to Avoid Taxes - The Daily Beast[/url]

[url=http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-companies-want-to-ditch-america-to-cut-taxes/]More companies want to ditch America to cut taxes - CBS News[/url]


who knew ireland was a corporate tax dream land?

world economics, corporate tax structures, inflation etc is all to complicated for a guy like me.

im too distracted chasing that lone dollar dangling in front of me.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=over the mountain;1075287]it seems that US companies are doing these "inter-mergers" with foreign companies to avoid paying taxes in the US since the corporate loop holes are being targeted for reform.

[URL="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/02/big-pharma-skips-to-the-u-k-to-avoid-taxes.html"]Big Pharma Skips to the U.K. to Avoid Taxes - The Daily Beast[/URL]

[URL="http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-companies-want-to-ditch-america-to-cut-taxes/"]More companies want to ditch America to cut taxes - CBS News[/URL]


who knew ireland was a corporate tax dream land?

world economics, corporate tax structures, inflation etc is all to complicated for a guy like me.

im too distracted chasing that lone dollar dangling in front of me.[/quote]





This is not new ,my company got dragged into this shit years ago(1998/99) .Royal Ahold based in the Netherlands bought Giant of Carlisle ,Giant of Maryland and Stop and Shop, Martins , Peapod plus others they have sold off to improve the bottom line . We get put on the tight budget line while all earned monies go over seas .

[url=http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/20/business/royal-ahold-set-to-acquire-giant-food.html]Royal Ahold Set to Acquire Giant Food - NYTimes.com[/url]

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[url=http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Anti-government-citizen-militia-groups-want-to-5604303.php]Anti-government citizen militia groups want to 'secure the border' in Texas - San Antonio Express-News[/url]

I've mentioned a couple times that I'm not to crazy about anyone aligned with Far-Left/Right views but in regards to the far-right, the views on illegal immigrants particularly irks me.

All to often I hear complaints about how the reason this country is going downhill is people are turning away from Christianity and how people aren't willing to work hard. Then a large demographic made up of numerous hard working devout Christians tries to come here to provide a better life for their families and they're greeted with guns at the boarder by the same people that scold the government for trying to control their lives. The same people that are all to eager to en-state martial law and provide law enforcement with the authority to card anyone at the drop of a hat to prove their a citizen.

I realize the boarder can't just be left wide open and I certainly understand the level of violence employed by drug cartels, particularly the ones connected with Tijuana. However there seems to be little distinction between the people I see in my posh part of town doing backbreaking labor in 90+ heat, possibly for below minimum wage and the guys that are willing to kill at the drop of a hat.

Usually I could care less about the religious aspect but it makes me think that if a large group of people meeting key criteria from far right critics aren't able to gain acceptance then whats the chance they can be pleased at all.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/16/us-russia-cuba-base-idUSKBN0FL1LZ20140716]Russia set to reopen Soviet-era spy post on Cuba - source | Reuters[/url]

I guess at this point Putin can do about anything he wants knowing obama aint gonna say ish

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Oh ... I disagree. Obama will say something: "Thank you sir! May I have another?"

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1075681]Oh ... I disagree. Obama will say something: "Thank you sir! May I have another?"[/quote]

It's crazy to me how aggressive Russia has been in the last 5 years. At home they have really restricted basic freedoms of its own people and abroad their influence is seen in every corner of the world, now again 100 miles off our boarder. We kinda need to wake up.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075687]It's crazy to me how aggressive Russia has been in the last 5 years. At home they have really restricted basic freedoms of its own people and abroad their influence is seen in every corner of the world, now again 100 miles off our boarder. We kinda need to wake up.[/quote]


I ,like the two of you don't like it but I will ask you what it is you want him to do ? Do we go to war with Russia ,do we go to war with Cuba , the US has been reducing it's military for years B.R.A.C has been going on for years (Bush and Obama ) , my question is what is it he should do ?

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Giantone;1075689]I ,like the two of you don't like it but I will ask you what it is you want him to do ? Do we go to war with Russia ,do we go to war with Cuba , the US has been reducing it's military for years B.R.A.C has been going on for years (Bush and Obama ) , my question is what is it he should do ?[/quote]

I think we are losing behind the scenes. Slipping. Even in Europe now. What progress have we honestly made with all the focus and money we've spent over in the Middle East in ten years? That Isis shit going on right now is serious. Meanwhile we've slipped.

Go to war with Russia? Come on, that's not an option

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Giantone;1075689]I ,like the two of you don't like it but I will ask you what it is you want him to do ? Do we go to war with Russia ,do we go to war with Cuba , the US has been reducing it's military for years B.R.A.C has been going on for years (Bush and Obama ) , my question is what is it he should do ?[/quote]

asking what he should do on a football internet forum is going to solve the world problems. Clearly, he should simply say welcome as Russia opens the mission in Cuba. There are no past experienced politicians from either side that have ever managed to keep an aggressive Russian policy in check, and we are obviously doomed to the clever Putin and his happy Bear policy.

[/sarc]

You don't stop it by allowing a Russian takeover of a sovereign nation's port and ignoring standing bilateral agreements. I actually like the targeted sanctions, but they should have been stronger at the point of taking over Crimea. You make a daily UN Security Council proposal condemning Russian occupation of Crimea. You send non-lethal military aid from day one, and position a force in international waters of the Black Sea. Yes it's teetering, much like JFK teetered at the cuban missile crisis, but fact is Russia will not win a war right now, and they know that, but if they get what they want with minimal costs then you only encourage bolder actions.
Some knock Pres Obama's Syrian redline, but fact is it worked to get the chemical weapons cleared out. That same resolve should have been used to back up the agreements on Ukranian sovereignty. When Iraq invaded Kuwait the world rallied around the US and the air war was like 3 weeks. An immediate response at the time of the Crimean takeover would have had similar backing for tough actions, but the US would have had to lead. I am not saying an air war, but again, there were options for quick decisive responses and "red lines" instead, Pres Obama didn't even attend specific meetings, that sends a signal to a realpolitik ex KGB leader like Putin.

BRAC and military reductions are red herrings. The US military still outspends the rest of the world combined, and could put enough air and fire power into any active hotspot so as to stare down a threat from any serious opponent.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

So we gonna let Russian backd forces shoot down commercial aircraft. Putin response of course disgusting blaming the Ukraine

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Assuming for a second Russia shot it down with a missile (I don't believe there is proof yet?)

What is it we're supposed to do without essentially starting another war?

Or are we supposed to start a war?

I'm genuinely curious.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075736]Assuming for a second Russia shot it down with a missile (I don't believe there is proof yet?)

What is it we're supposed to do without essentially starting another war?

Or are we supposed to start a war?

I'm genuinely curious.[/quote]

Lol it's so funny people just jump to "start a war". Like I said above, we are not going to war,...is war the only option?

So I guess the Obama supporters will continue to advocate our strategy: "sitting on our hands"

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075740]Lol it's so funny people just jump to "start a war". Like I said above, we are not going to war,...is war the only option?

So I guess the Obama supporters will continue to advocate our strategy: "sitting on our hands"[/quote]

So what would you recommend be done?

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075741]So what would you recommend be done?[/quote]

Sanctions, sit on hands, mean email to Putin. The status quo.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075741]So what would you recommend be done?[/quote]

[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9VA4W1wDMAk[/ame]

Remember when we had a president who stood up to things?

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

So you want a strongly worded public address?

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075744]So you want a strongly worded public address?[/quote]

Lol yeah. That's [B]exactly[/B] how Reagan handled the Russians. :laughing2

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075746]Lol yeah. That's [B]exactly[/B] how Reagan handled the Russians. :laughing2[/quote]

So you think the appropriate response would be to join/create/participate in another cold war?

You've yet to answer the question. Give me something actionable as a response to this. If you were president, what would you do?

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[QUOTE=tshile;1075747]So you think the appropriate response would be to join/create/participate in another cold war?

You've yet to answer the question. Give me something actionable as a response to this. If you were president, what would you do?[/QUOTE]
It is dumb to presume any internet user could craft the specific response the US President ought to make. We do not have the access to the intelligence and readiness status of forces in the area. That said, the Russians are not a superpower yet, and if we through back channels used our strengths against their weaker areas(directly or indirectly related to Ukraine) we could create a condition which let the Russian president know that we find their current path unacceptable. Most likely this should have been in the form of deeper sanctions earlier, but forgetting hindsight and rrecognizing that a passenger air liner being shot down should be a game changer where we should call for immediate UN peacekeepers on the ground in eastern Ukraine.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Soviet Russia was already on the brink by the time Regan got into office. The best you could attribute to Regan was he may have sped up the collapse by a couple of years and even that seems generous.

I'd argue that the Chernobyl incident with it's tremendous cost and the animosity created by the subsequent cover up did more damage to Soviet Russia then Reagan could have ever hoped to take credit for. And even then with a $15 billion direct loss it was a small part of the eventual collapse.

The Soviets dedication to communism, as least in principle, is what did them in. I remember seeing documentaries about East Germany where a child recalled asking his teacher when the world would be rid of currency and the teacher something akin to likely by the turn of the century. Such was the mindset of the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact countries though it was no secret that the party members were living well.

Had they embraced the hybrid system that China did post-Mao they likely would still be a major world power.

Personally in regards to Russia I would prefer to stick with the international community and let Russia make a fool of itself. The end result of Russia messing up is likely to happen regardless. Military action at this point will likely only cost American lives and if anything serve as propaganda fodder for the Ultra Nationalist in Russia which could possibly lead to a more dangerous conflict. Plus keep in mind the Ukraine crisis is currently costing Russia a lot of money in direct cost (ie not including possible embargos and sanctions). This latest incident is going to make the situation worse for Russia across the board.

After all it doesn't matter what your intent is. When a child sees an American solider in his back yard it doesn't take much for an adult to convince them that they're evil imperialist hell bent on taking over the world. Also another thing to keep in mind is that many Putin supporters are ultra nationalist hoping for a chance to cry victim should America exceed its reach. Part of the reason Putin has been able to keep power up to this point is that he's convinced the Russian people that everyones out to get them, particularly the US, and only a "strong" leader such as himself can protect the people. You know someone like.....
[YT]gncW1zqMFgs[/YT]
[I]For the lulz. By the way this wasn't a parody, it was a random song praising Putin that was [URL="http://boingboing.net/2010/09/16/vladimir-putins-pop.html"]embraced by Putin and his camp following the songs popularity in 2002[/URL].[/I]

In other words to give Regan credit for taking down the Soviet Union by employing a 'tough foreign policy' is akin to giving Clinton full credit for the tech boom in the mid to late 90's. The point being Presidents get way to much credit and blame for virtually everything that takes place when they're in office. Especially when there are billions of other factors in play for any given situation.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075748]It is dumb to presume any internet user could craft the specific response the US President ought to make. We do not have the access to the intelligence and readiness status of forces in the area. That said, the Russians are not a superpower yet, and if we through back channels used our strengths against their weaker areas(directly or indirectly related to Ukraine) we could create a condition which let the Russian president know that we find their current path unacceptable. Most likely this should have been in the form of deeper sanctions earlier, but forgetting hindsight and rrecognizing that a passenger air liner being shot down should be a game changer where we should call for immediate UN peacekeepers on the ground in eastern Ukraine.[/quote]

Thank you.

So, basically, you think we should be doing exactly what we're probably doing. If we're not doing it, there's certainly no evidence that we're not and there ideally never would be until well after the issue is over.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[QUOTE=tshile;1075750]Thank you.

So, basically, you think we should be doing exactly what we're probably doing. If we're not doing it, there's certainly no evidence that we're not and there ideally never would be until well after the issue is over.[/QUOTE]
No I didn't say that at all. The president was at fund raisers tonight and still hadn't commented on the plane being shot down. We are not advocating UN peacekeepers, which I think should atleast be in the discussion, and we are not putting any (real) pressure on Putin to change his tactics. We also aren't taking a leading role in denouncing the russian occupation of Crimea, nor are we assisting with meaningful defensive assistance a government in Kiev that has staked its future on a strong relationship with us. Because I don't sit in on national intelligence briefs I can't speak with any specificity of how some of these steps would happen, but I can certainly tell you that we are not publicly and repeatedly denouncing the Crimean debacle, that the House has not pushed forward an appropriations bill funding defensive weapons sales to Kiev(nor has the president sought one) and by Putin's actions you can infer that we are not putting pressure on any points that he respects or would cause him to cease and desist with his realpolitik approach to international rules and laws.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075752]No I didn't say that at all. The president was at fund raisers tonight and still hadn't commented on the plane being shot down.[/quote]


Not true I heard a comment from him about 2:40 pm driving home yesterday (99.1 wnew)

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075752]No I didn't say that at all. The president was at fund raisers tonight and still hadn't commented on the plane being shot down. We are not advocating UN peacekeepers, which I think should atleast be in the discussion, and we are not putting any (real) pressure on Putin to change his tactics. We also aren't taking a leading role in denouncing the russian occupation of Crimea, nor are we assisting with meaningful defensive assistance a government in Kiev that has staked its future on a strong relationship with us. Because I don't sit in on national intelligence briefs I can't speak with any specificity of how some of these steps would happen, but I can certainly tell you that we are not publicly and repeatedly denouncing the Crimean debacle, that the House has not pushed forward an appropriations bill funding defensive weapons sales to Kiev(nor has the president sought one) and by Putin's actions you can infer that we are not putting pressure on any points that he respects or would cause him to cease and desist with his realpolitik approach to international rules and laws.[/quote]
Hah, that's what i get for reading to fast. I mixed up names :)

He has spoken to the issue. The idea that being at a fundraiser is bad suggests there's some other actionable thing he should be doing - what is that?

The UN announced yesterday they're having an emergency meeting today, presumably to discuss many options including putting peace keepers in. So, again, I'm not sure what more it is that should be done at this point.

I'm not sure what it is people want us to do about Ukraine and Russia. People keep saying they want *something* done but they lack specifics.

I get that this administration is borderline worst in history when it comes to foreign policy (at this point at least) and that it's really easy to lump it all together and decry the admin for it. But in this specific case - a commercial airliner is shot down - what is it that should be done? You'd think all the people being so highly critical of the issue would have an answer for that... but they don't.

We don't even have any proof (publicly) of who did it yet...

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075750]Thank you.

So, basically, you think we should be doing exactly what we're probably doing. If we're not doing it, there's certainly no evidence that we're not and there ideally never would be until well after the issue is over.[/quote]

Thank you for saying "sit on your hands" the Obama doctrine.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075763]Thank you for saying "sit on your hands" the Obama doctrine.[/quote]

i didn't say that.

you still haven't answered the question...

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075762]Hah, that's what i get for reading to fast. I mixed up names :)

He has spoken to the issue. The idea that being at a fundraiser is bad suggests there's some other actionable thing he should be doing - what is that?

The UN announced yesterday they're having an emergency meeting today, presumably to discuss many options including putting peace keepers in. So, again, I'm not sure what more it is that should be done at this point.

I'm not sure what it is people want us to do about Ukraine and Russia. People keep saying they want *something* done but they lack specifics.[/quote]

Again, you aren't getting specifics on the internet forums, but you are also quick to dismiss the specifics that I did mention. Being at a fundraiser reflects a lack of concern, could he have resolved the issue by skipping the fundraiser, maybe - maybe not, but he could have demonstrated to the parties involved that it was a serious incident to shoot down a civilian jet. He could have used that time to meet with national security and congressional national security representatives. Perhaps they sit on their thumbs and twiddle their fingers, but Russian and separatists would have to at least believe they were going over possible responses at the US could take, including, coordinating having FAA, Malaysian, and international crews on the ground in Ukraine controlled territory and waiting impatiently for the separatists to allow them onsite. We could have announced that we will seek permission from Kiev to allow AWAC overflight of West Ukraine. Going to a fundraiser, and not speaking publicly (not press releases that G1 referred to), sends a message to world community.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the President could have held a national telecast, instead of a fundraiser, and brought the shooting of a civilian aircraft, operating along a known civilian route, under the shining light of US auspices, or discussed how that act brings a new and dangerous dimension to the fight in Ukraine. He could have highlighted the peaceful election and the high percentage support for the new Kiev government and directly call on the separatists to lay down their arms and meet with Kiev. He could have been working with Merkel, and the other European national leaders, to craft a proposal that would entice the separatists to the table, or crafting a UN resolution to create a UN sponsored peace talks under UN auspices.

All of this is to say that there are specific and substantive acts that a US President can, and should, take when a hostile force attacks a civilian aircraft with reckless abandon, and these acts should be immediate, obvious, and carry the full weight and stature of the office of the President and the power and force of the US world status. Instead, this President chose to release a meaningless release saying we don't even know if any US citizens were on board (so the other 270 or so human beings aren't important?, or the free and safe passage of civilian airlines aren't important), and attend a fundraiser that does nothing to unite the nation, or bring this to the nation as a whole under the seal of the President of the United States of America.

It's easy to do nothing (hell I try and get away with it every day LOL) and it's safer to sit back and offer platitudes to international leaders. It's incumbent on the US President though to be a national LEADER of actions, and not a middle management zombie going through motions of a political hack.

and G1- this is how CBS reported the President's statement:
[quote]Earlier Thursday, President Obama said that the crash "looks like it may be a terrible tragedy," and offered U.S. assistance in determining what happened.

"Right now we're working to determine whether there were American citizens on board. That is our first priority and I've directed my national security team to stay in close contact with the Ukrainian government," Mr. Obama said during a speech in Wilmington, Del. "The United States will offer any assistance we can to help determine what happened and why and as a country our thoughts and prayers are with all the families of the passengers wherever they call home."[/quote]

Again, that's a Hallmark condolences card with a statement of American ignorance (why say we don't know if there were US citizens on the aircraft, it's a useless sentence and a silly first priority, whether or not US citizens were killed should be secondary to assuring safe passage of civilian aircraft at heights of 33,000 feet). That's NOT a US President acting as a leader on a world stage. If that and the condolences to Poreshenko and the Malaysian leader is all the US President needs to do, then we should just vote in the owner of Hallmark in the next election.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

going further, and I am not a Putin fan, but here is his statement to his economic advisors and published to the world:
[QUOTE]ou know that a terrible event occurred today in the sky over Ukraine, an awful tragedy -- a civilian plane was killed, 285 people, according to preliminary information, were killed.

On behalf of the Russian leadership and the Russian government, we express condolences to the bereaved families, the governments of those countries whose nationals were on that plane. I ask you to honor their memory.

(A moment of silence)

In this regard, I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.

I have already given instructions to the military departments to provide all necessary assistance in the investigation of this crime. And I also ask the government of the Russian Federation through the available civilian agencies that have the capability to do everything for a thorough investigation of this event. We will do everything -- everything that depends on us, anyway -- in order that the objective picture of what happened is part of the public domain here, in Ukraine and in the rest of the world. This is an absolutely unacceptable thing, and no one has the right to let this pass without the appropriate conclusions and without all of us having objective information about the incident.[/QUOTE]
Note, he didn't say his first priority was to see if any Russians were on board, instead he offered a line of condolences to everyone, and moved on. He then outlined his country's position(ridiculous as it is) laying the incident on Kiev's feet, then making a national directive to his equivalent of the FAA and other agencies to make their resources available and be ready, and finally stating that the act of shooting a civilian plane is an "absolutely unacceptable thing".

If someone doesn't see the difference the 2 leaders statements and actions present in terms of the gravity of the situation, then I don't know that any internet words ever would.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

A good start Tshile is single strong statement by the President stating those who shot down the plane will be held accountable period. Align yourself first and collect the facts.


My kneejerk impression is this will be anti aircraft missle fired by separtist either on the border or on the Russian side. Because the missile was supplied by Russia they bare ultimate responsibility. And that would be the next statement by the President and then you take the facts to the EU, Nato, United nations...

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075765]Again, you aren't getting specifics on the internet forums, but you are also quick to dismiss the specifics that I did mention. Being at a fundraiser reflects a lack of concern, could he have resolved the issue by skipping the fundraiser, maybe - maybe not, but he could have demonstrated to the parties involved that it was a serious incident to shoot down a civilian jet. He could have used that time to meet with national security and congressional national security representatives. Perhaps they sit on their thumbs and twiddle their fingers, but Russian and separatists would have to at least believe they were going over possible responses at the US could take, including, coordinating having FAA, Malaysian, and international crews on the ground in Ukraine controlled territory and waiting impatiently for the separatists to allow them onsite. We could have announced that we will seek permission from Kiev to allow AWAC overflight of West Ukraine. Going to a fundraiser, and not speaking publicly (not press releases that G1 referred to), sends a message to world community.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the President could have held a national telecast, instead of a fundraiser, and brought the shooting of a civilian aircraft, operating along a known civilian route, under the shining light of US auspices, or discussed how that act brings a new and dangerous dimension to the fight in Ukraine. He could have highlighted the peaceful election and the high percentage support for the new Kiev government and directly call on the separatists to lay down their arms and meet with Kiev. He could have been working with Merkel, and the other European national leaders, to craft a proposal that would entice the separatists to the table, or crafting a UN resolution to create a UN sponsored peace talks under UN auspices.

All of this is to say that there are specific and substantive acts that a US President can, and should, take when a hostile force attacks a civilian aircraft with reckless abandon, and these acts should be immediate, obvious, and carry the full weight and stature of the office of the President and the power and force of the US world status. Instead, this President chose to release a meaningless release saying we don't even know if any US citizens were on board (so the other 270 or so human beings aren't important?, or the free and safe passage of civilian airlines aren't important), and attend a fundraiser that does nothing to unite the nation, or bring this to the nation as a whole under the seal of the President of the United States of America.

It's easy to do nothing (hell I try and get away with it every day LOL) and it's safer to sit back and offer platitudes to international leaders. It's incumbent on the US President though to be a national LEADER of actions, and not a middle management zombie going through motions of a political hack.

and G1- this is how CBS reported the President's statement:


Again, that's a Hallmark condolences card with a statement of American ignorance (why say we don't know if there were US citizens on the aircraft, it's a useless sentence and a silly first priority, whether or not US citizens were killed should be secondary to assuring safe passage of civilian aircraft at heights of 33,000 feet). That's NOT a US President acting as a leader on a world stage. If that and the condolences to Poreshenko and the Malaysian leader is all the US President needs to do, then we should just vote in the owner of Hallmark in the next election.[/quote]

That's fair.

It just irks me when you see criticism with no real alternative suggested, especially in a situation like this. You want UN Peace Keepers on the ground? well... they're having a meeting about that today, I honestly don't know what you or anyone else could have done differently in that regard. You want sanctions? We're already doing that...

If the criticism is that he went to a fundraiser, then so be it. We have plenty of examples of other presidents doing similar things. It irked me just as much when people criticized Bush for continuing to read to the children after finding out about 9-11... it seems like shallow criticism from people without a clue as to what is actually going on in totality in that situation. As if the entire arm of military, foreign policy, and intelligence of the United States is temporarily disabled and on standby because the President went to a fundraiser; or chose to continue to read to the children.

If your additional criticism is that he gave a lackluster speech on the issue, or that he missed an important opportunity to be a leader, then I get that. It's ironic... the president that's known for being a great speech maker and not much else, can't seem to make a meaningful speech when it matters ;)

I have no idea what the right response to this situation is... I'd like to see the people responsible put on trial for high crimes and put to death if found guilty, but I don't know how we can do that if Russia decides to protect them (Maybe some of them are in Russia's military/political offices???)

In fact... if the interest is in punishing those responsible (assuming they were terrorists, or someone that made a mistake in the war going on in the area [on either side]) then we need Russia to cooperate and grandstanding and using this as a chance to take shots at them isn't going to help at all...

But it seems like every time something like this happens we hear a lot of crowing from whatever group is opposed to the sitting president when things like this happens, when the truth is majority of the people crowing don't have a clue of what is actually going on, much less what should be going on.

The idea of finding out all the facts before demanding action seems to be a lost virtue these days... it's always hurry up and do something, then criticize whatever that something is.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Well the fact is T this may have been avoided if Obama would have lead to begin with. Reactive policy isnt the way to lead, and thats where we are at.

You seen Iraq lately? the country is cut into 3 parts right now.

Obama policy tends to be stand at a dam wall and plug the holes with his fingers as leaks start appearing. You think thats the right way to do things? The administration is seriously lacking a third eye...piss poor is a better discription.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075770]That's fair.

It just irks me when you see criticism with no real alternative suggested, especially in a situation like this. You want UN Peace Keepers on the ground? well... they're having a meeting about that today, I honestly don't know what you or anyone else could have done differently in that regard. You want sanctions? We're already doing that...

If the criticism is that he went to a fundraiser, then so be it. We have plenty of examples of other presidents doing similar things. It irked me just as much when people criticized Bush for continuing to read to the children after finding out about 9-11... it seems like shallow criticism from people without a clue as to what is actually going on in totality in that situation. As if the entire arm of military, foreign policy, and intelligence of the United States is temporarily disabled and on standby because the President went to a fundraiser; or chose to continue to read to the children.

If your additional criticism is that he gave a lackluster speech on the issue, or that he missed an important opportunity to be a leader, then I get that. It's ironic... the president that's known for being a great speech maker and not much else, can't seem to make a meaningful speech when it matters ;)

I have no idea what the right response to this situation is... I'd like to see the people responsible put on trial for high crimes and put to death if found guilty, but I don't know how we can do that if Russia decides to protect them (Maybe some of them are in Russia's military/political offices???)

[B]In fact... if the interest is in punishing those responsible (assuming they were terrorists, or someone that made a mistake in the war going on in the area [on either side]) then we need Russia to cooperate and grandstanding and using this as a chance to take shots at them isn't going to help at all...[/B]

But it seems like every time something like this happens we hear a lot of crowing from whatever group is opposed to the sitting president when things like this happens, when the truth is majority of the people crowing don't have a clue of what is actually going on, much less what should be going on.

The idea of finding out all the facts before demanding action seems to be a lost virtue these days... it's always hurry up and do something, then criticize whatever that something is.[/quote]

Again you referencing war...you can be aggressive without firing a shot. How many times I gotta say this? War is reactive thinking, but the fact is you gotta do something...