Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=mooby]i have one question, i'm not getting into the middle of this or anything, but here goes.

For all you Ramsey lovers out there, please answer this:

If, and if, we beat Dallas this Monday Night what will you think about the situation between Ramsey and Brunell? Will you still think Ramsey got shafted, or will you say Brunell is the better option?[/QUOTE]

I think the issue is more loyalty and being able to see if ramsey could do anything with the upside he may still have... brunell is clearly on the downside of his career and may not even be capable of managing games, we'll have to wait and see.

I just don't see why gibbs spent 7 months promoting ramsey every chance he got and naming him the unquestioned starter when he didn't have to. Yet he seems so insasnely loyal to brunell and goes to press conferences ssaying he fights his guts out etc.

brunell might be the best choice for now, but this whole QB situation has been handled very poorly.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

I don't care if Gibbs was loyal or not in todays NFL no team is loyal to any player and few players are loyal to teams. Players go where they can get money and teams will dump players who have been the cornerstone of there team because of money. Gibbs learned in the offseason when Pierce and Smoot left that you can't pay everyone and players are not loyal enough to stay. Loyalty will lose you games he was loyal last year to Brunell and it was a mistake. Gibbs rarly makes mistakes twice he will not be to loyal to someone he does not see performing in a way to benifit the team. I mean one fumble and Brown was not only benched but was cut. I liked Ramsey I bought my girl a ramsey jersey. I wanna win and I think with our defense and running game Brunnell if healthy will be smart and not force balls. Ramsey trusted his ability to much at times. But hopefully we will all see Gibbs is right cause that means we are winning.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Good post, Mattdouthat! Welcome to the board.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=mattdouthat]I don't care if Gibbs was loyal or not in todays NFL no team is loyal to any player and few players are loyal to teams. Players go where they can get money and teams will dump players who have been the cornerstone of there team because of money. Gibbs learned in the offseason when Pierce and Smoot left that you can't pay everyone and players are not loyal enough to stay. Loyalty will lose you games he was loyal last year to Brunell and it was a mistake. Gibbs rarly makes mistakes twice he will not be to loyal to someone he does not see performing in a way to benifit the team. I mean one fumble and Brown was not only benched but was cut. I liked Ramsey I bought my girl a ramsey jersey. I wanna win and I think with our defense and running game Brunnell if healthy will be smart and not force balls. Ramsey trusted his ability to much at times. But hopefully we will all see Gibbs is right cause that means we are winning.[/QUOTE]

but gibbs is known for being honest, why couldn't he just say its an open competition or whatever? I don't see why he couldn't just do something as simple as that, cause it was obvious who he wanted.

brunell has probably played better, but it wouldn't have been hard to avoid a lot of this.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Well i think he knew Ramsey was not very confident and he wanted him to feel reassured. He said Ramsey would start but he also said he is in business of winning games said this many times. And he will do whatever is necessary in his mind to take us back to the top but we will see if it works

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=mattdouthat]Loyalty will lose you games he was loyal last year to Brunell and it was a mistake. Gibbs rarly makes mistakes twice...[/QUOTE]

???

Re: Brunell Starting
 

He did not stick with Ramsey cause he keeps turning ball over. If Brunnel does the same I believe he will pull him and we will see Cambell. If Portis starts fumbling you will see Betts starting. Just ask Antonio Brown how serious Gibbs is this year about eliminating turnovers

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=mattdouthat]He did not stick with Ramsey cause he keeps turning ball over. If Brunnel does the same I believe he will pull him and we will see Cambell. If Portis starts fumbling you will see Betts starting. Just ask Antonio Brown how serious Gibbs is this year about eliminating turnovers[/QUOTE]

brunell had 9 turnovers in 9 games last year though... and portis fumbled a ton and gibbs kept him in too.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Here's the bottom line. We all wanted to see Ramsey last year after we witnessed Brunell throwing weak ducks all over the field. Once Ramsey came in what did he do??? Not much. As much as myself and most of you wouldn’t like to admit it, this year in Preseason Ray Charles could have seen who the better QB was. And in the first quarter that trend of erratic, and turnover bound play continued. If Gibbs says Brunell was hurt last year after watching his improved play in Preseason its hard to argue with the HOF legend coach that won us three superbowls.

Ramsey in his forth year still doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL QB. He unsure, unaware, and doesn’t have a general feel for the game. He’s got a great arm but as Heath showed us that dosen’t' make a good QB. I understand those that feel Ramsey wasn't given a fair shake and hasn’t' been during his stint here in Washington but this is business. Its not our concern or Gibb's concern on being fair its about winning ball games. Right now like it or not with the Defense we have and the improved O-line Brunell is the correct choice for the Skins winning games this year. It’s the blueprint of the 2000 Ravens. Bottom line is if we can beat Dallas MONDAY NIGHT everyone will be back on the bandwagon. Don't feel bad for Ramsey he's a damn Millionaire and he's got more coming from the Bears or Miami next year. Then we will all see that he's just not cut out for the NFL.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]Here's the bottom line. We all wanted to see Ramsey last year after we witnessed Brunell throwing weak ducks all over the field. Once Ramsey came in what did he do??? Not much. As much as myself and most of you wouldn’t like to admit it, this year in Preseason Ray Charles could have seen who the better QB was. And in the first quarter that trend of erratic, and turnover bound play continued. If Gibbs says Brunell was hurt last year after watching his improved play in Preseason its hard to argue with the HOF legend coach that won us three superbowls.

Ramsey in his forth year still doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL QB. He unsure, unaware, and doesn’t have a general feel for the game. He’s got a great arm but as Heath showed us that dosen’t' make a good QB. I understand those that feel Ramsey wasn't given a fair shake and hasn’t' been during his stint here in Washington but this is business. Its not our concern or Gibb's concern on being fair its about winning ball games. Right now like it or not with the Defense we have and the improved O-line Brunell is the correct choice for the Skins winning games this year. It’s the blueprint of the 2000 Ravens. Bottom line is if we can beat Dallas MONDAY NIGHT everyone will be back on the bandwagon. Don't feel bad for Ramsey he's a damn Millionaire and he's got more coming from the Bears or Miami next year. Then we will all see that he's just not cut out for the NFL.[/QUOTE]

Nice take, welcome to the board!

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]Here's the bottom line. We all wanted to see Ramsey last year after we witnessed Brunell throwing weak ducks all over the field. Once Ramsey came in what did he do??? Not much. As much as myself and most of you wouldn’t like to admit it, this year in Preseason Ray Charles could have seen who the better QB was. And in the first quarter that trend of erratic, and turnover bound play continued. If Gibbs says Brunell was hurt last year after watching his improved play in Preseason its hard to argue with the HOF legend coach that won us three superbowls.

Ramsey in his forth year still doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL QB. He unsure, unaware, and doesn’t have a general feel for the game. He’s got a great arm but as Heath showed us that dosen’t' make a good QB. I understand those that feel Ramsey wasn't given a fair shake and hasn’t' been during his stint here in Washington but this is business. Its not our concern or Gibb's concern on being fair its about winning ball games. Right now like it or not with the Defense we have and the improved O-line Brunell is the correct choice for the Skins winning games this year. It’s the blueprint of the 2000 Ravens. Bottom line is if we can beat Dallas MONDAY NIGHT everyone will be back on the bandwagon. Don't feel bad for Ramsey he's a damn Millionaire and he's got more coming from the Bears or Miami next year. Then we will all see that he's just not cut out for the NFL.[/QUOTE]

RE: Trent Green, RICH GANNON

Re: Brunell Starting
 

What do Trent Green and Rich Gannon have to do with anything?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]What do Trent Green and Rich Gannon have to do with anything?[/QUOTE]

Former Redskins quarterbacks that were not given an adequate chance..... How long have you been a fan? To be starters that is..... :)

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Wow... I go away for a couple of days and come back and have to read a 17 page thread just to get warmed up, and then find out we're getting quoted on the news. In your face xtremeskinners lol.

As some of you know I've been caught up in this contraversy since before the season and have taken the side of Ramsey. I never thought he was given a supportive chance. Supportive being the operative term. However, he has proven that he does not have what it takes to be strong enough to manage a game when his support falters, so if Gibbs says he goes he goes...

BUT Scott Brunell (lol) has not shown me anything more than ramsey has. He played decent against some second stringers in the preseason. I'm all for starting him when we have a second string team on the schedule, but until that happens I think Brunell is not the answer. He was basically handed the job last year and even before the hammy pull he sucked. The injury was an excuse. He sucked in the QB challenge before camp; he sucked in camp; he sucked in preseason; he sucked in the regular season. I don't get how people are giving a 35 year old veteran who had the worst stats in the league last year every excuse for playing terribly, but ousting a young guy who has been shit on his entire career.

The main reason I don't want to see brunell starting, though, is his age. At 35 he may be able to play still, but for how long? We're gonna have to go throught this same crap in a couple of years and I as a skins fan am sick of having a QB contraversey every year. Thats the one thing I think I want more than anything now that we have a little stability in the coaching ranks, is a steady option at QB. Not even a superstar, but just someone who wont go in and blow games. I think the high turnover rate of QBs in our franchise is a direct result of itself, (meaning every QB is so concerned about keeping a job here that it affects their play and they lose it [trent green, brad johnson, tony banks, gus ferrotte, etc]) and sometimes a team will stick it out with a promising young talent throught a tought year and build around him and the position will stabilize itself.

Right now, basically if Jason Campbell doesn't become the next Daunte Culpeper, we're screwed in a year or two down the road, because we have no other option, and no real bargaining chips for next year.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201]Former Redskins quarterbacks that were not given an adequate chance..... How long have you been a fan? To be starters that is..... :)[/QUOTE]

I think it would be naive to expect every player that leaves our team especially at a position like QB to be a bum. Teams often have players that don't fit well in a particular style of play, or simply do not demonstrate the capabilties they have, or just don't progress in a timely fashion. Hindsight is 20/20, and to say that this or that player should have been kept longer is diificult because these players played themselves out of jobs. This isn't pop warner where the coaches drinking buddy's fat, stupid, slow son is the "star" running back. It hurts to see a player you once threw away become a star but every team has a couple of those guys.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=STPainmaker]I think it would be naive to expect every player that leaves our team especially at a position like QB to be a bum. Teams often have players that don't fit well in a particular style of play, or simply do not demonstrate the capabilties they have, or just don't progress in a timely fashion. Hindsight is 20/20, and to say that this or that player should have been kept longer is diificult because these players played themselves out of jobs. This isn't pop warner where the coaches drinking buddy's fat, stupid, slow son is the "star" running back. It hurts to see a player you once threw away become a star but every team has a couple of those guys.[/QUOTE]

To be honest those guys actually were starting to experience success, and the Redskins decided to trade them instead.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201]Former Redskins quarterbacks that were not given an adequate chance..... How long have you been a fan? To be starters that is..... :)[/QUOTE]

Well I liked, still like, Trent Green and wish we could have kept him. But, I'm sure you'll recall that he was a free agent during the time the franchise was transitioning ownership from the Cooke family to Howard Millstein. Then that fell through and Dan Snyder bought the team. But with all the uncertainty about who the owner would be and not knowing what the financial situation would be, Green had no choice but to leave. I think he would have been more likely to stay if there was some ownership in place while he was on the free agent market.

Gannon was an average QB for over a decade in this league. Good for him that he was able spend the last years of his career on a high note. But he only played half a season here (the Petitbon year), his sixth I believe in the NFL, and had given no indication before hand he would be anything special and didn't for several years after that.

In fact in those 8 games he played with the Skins he had 704 yards passing (5.6 ypa), with 3 TDs and 7 INTs. Last year in 9 games Brunell had 1194 yards passing (5.0 ypa) with 7 TDs and 6 INTs. If you're going to say we should have given Gannon a chance you might as well say the same for Brunell.

Been a fan since '82

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Well I liked, still like, Trent Green and wish we could have kept him. But, I'm sure you'll recall that he was a free agent during the time the franchise was transitioning ownership from the Cooke family to Howard Millstein. Then that fell through and Dan Snyder bought the team. But with all the uncertainty about who the owner would be and not knowing what the financial situation would be, Green had no choice but to leave. I think he would have been more likely to stay if there was some ownership in place while he was on the free agent market.

Gannon was an average QB for over a decade in this league. Good for him that he was able spend the last years of his career on a high note. But he only played half a season here (the Petitbon year), his sixth I believe in the NFL, and had given no indication before hand he would be anything special and didn't for several years after that.

In fact in those 8 games he played with the Skins he had 704 yards passing (5.6 ypa), with 3 TDs and 7 INTs. Last year in 9 games Brunell had 1194 yards passing (5.0 ypa) with 7 TDs and 6 INTs. If you're going to say we should have given Gannon a chance you might as well say the same for Brunell.

Been a fan since '82[/QUOTE]


Great post.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]In fact in those 8 games he played with the Skins he had 704 yards passing (5.6 ypa), with 3 TDs and 7 INTs. Last year in 9 games Brunell had 1194 yards passing (5.0 ypa) with 7 TDs and 6 INTs. If you're going to say we should have given Gannon a chance you might as well say the same for Brunell.

Been a fan since '82[/QUOTE]

The difference is the age. As I posted, Brunell offers no long term solution to solidify the position. Gannon had troubles when he was young, and often times they work out. When someone gets to the end of their career and their talent and physical attributes begin to fail them, and they don't realize it, jerry rice for instance, and they can't let go, people still install faith in them and carry them through a couple of lousy years and call hindsight 20/20 when they don't produce and leave you scratching your head and smelling your finger.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Let me also add that Gannon didn't even play in the league at all in 1994, that's how little he was thought of league-wide

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=STPainmaker]Great post.[/QUOTE]

Gannon, at the very least was still in the early part of his career, and with the possibility of greatness, while Brunell is essentially supposed to be the teacher of the tricks of the trade since we all know he doen't have much left in the tank and injury prone.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna]The difference is the age. As I posted, Brunell offers no long term solution to solidify the position. Gannon had troubles when he was young, and often times they work out. When someone gets to the end of their career and their talent and physical attributes begin to fail them, and they don't realize it, jerry rice for instance, and they can't let go, people still install faith in them and carry them through a couple of lousy years and call hindsight 20/20 when they don't produce and leave you scratching your head and smelling your finger.[/QUOTE]

A fair argument. I just don't see the Trent Green scenario as being the same. I wish we kept him but we just couldn't realistically. And I don't think people can say we drove Gannon out of town. He didn't show anything here. I mean people can say it, they have already. I just disagree

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Exactly... and if he had been 35 at the time he would've never gotten the chance.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201]Gannon, at the very least was still in the early part of his career, and with the possibility of greatness, while Brunell is essentially supposed to be the teacher of the tricks of the trade since we all know he doen't have much left in the tank and injury prone.[/QUOTE]

Tim Hasselbeck is in an even earlier part of his career. Greatness could be bestowed upon him in 2012. Should we have held onto him?

How about Tony Banks?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Hell why dont we go get Kordell Stewart. He was decent once and he's over the hill now...

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Tim Hasselbeck is in an even earlier part of his career. Greatness could be bestowed upon him in 2012. Should we have held onto him?

How about Tony Banks?[/QUOTE]

Hasselback does not possess the physical tools of any of the quarterbacks mentioned previously.

Speaking of feelings, when the physical tools are not there and you are not in the league of Joe Montana in reading the field and knowing the opponents like the back of your hand you will probably have problems being successful in the NFL.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201]Hasselback does not possess the physical tools of any of the quarterbacks mentioned previously.

Speaking of feelings, when the physical tools are not there and you are not in the league of Joe Montana in reading the field and knowing the opponents like the back of your hand you will probably have problems being successful in the NFL.[/QUOTE]

I respect your point, but I think simply that Gannon and Green were with us when either we couldn't keep them or we saw no reason to keep them. If not the front offices that made these decisions were several regimes ago anyway, we can only hope to minimize letting good players go.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201]Speaking of feelings, when the physical tools are not there and you are not in the league of Joe Montana in reading the field and knowing the opponents like the back of your hand you will probably have problems being successful in the NFL.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean "speaking of feelings"?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Speaking of feelings, I think that the Redskins knew that Hassleback more than likely did not have what it takes to be a starter in the NFL anytime soon.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna]Scott Brunell (lol) has not shown me anything more than ramsey has. He played decent against some second stringers in the preseason. I'm all for starting him when we have a second string team on the schedule, but until that happens I think Brunell is not the answer. He was basically handed the job last year and even before the hammy pull he sucked. The injury was an excuse. He sucked in the QB challenge before camp; he sucked in camp; he sucked in preseason; he sucked in the regular season. I don't get how people are giving a 35 year old veteran who had the worst stats in the league last year every excuse for playing terribly, but ousting a young guy who has been shit on his entire career.

The main reason I don't want to see brunell starting, though, is his age. At 35 he may be able to play still, but for how long? We're gonna have to go throught this same crap in a couple of years and I as a skins fan am sick of having a QB contraversey every year. Thats the one thing I think I want more than anything now that we have a little stability in the coaching ranks, is a steady option at QB. Not even a superstar, but just someone who wont go in and blow games. I think the high turnover rate of QBs in our franchise is a direct result of itself, (meaning every QB is so concerned about keeping a job here that it affects their play and they lose it [trent green, brad johnson, tony banks, gus ferrotte, etc]) and sometimes a team will stick it out with a promising young talent throught a tought year and build around him and the position will stabilize itself.[/QUOTE]

good to see i'm not the only one thinking this. even if Brunell magically got younger and better over this offseason what happens next season? back to the drawing board. maybe people will actually read through and understand the argument if its not just from me.

funny how a couple preseason games can make veteran Warpathers do complete 180s. talk about short sighted.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

BLAH BLAH BLAH !!!!
we seem to forget one man does not make a team, Gentelmen. (and i use that term loosely!!) Coach Gibbs is searching just like the rest of us for a answer and until they come together as a unit it will continue to Falter!! think back to Ryp and that superbowl team and tell me they didnt work as a unit, its time for all to step up and want to be The Washington Redskins!!! one of the best franchises, led by one of the best Coaches to ever coach the game!!!The right man will step up and lead us to the promise land. Whether it,s Brunell, or Ramsey, or Campbell or some other QB This is what coach means by CORE REDSKINS in the mean time we must continue to be the Greatest Fans In the NFL and stand by our Team and our Coach !!!
NUFF SAID
Hail to the Redskins
Skinfomaniac

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=Skinfomaniac]BLAH BLAH BLAH !!!!
we seem to forget one man does not make a team, Gentelmen. (and i use that term loosely!!) Coach Gibbs is searching just like the rest of us for a answer and until they come together as a unit it will continue to Falter!! think back to Ryp and that superbowl team and tell me they didnt work as a unit, its time for all to step up and want to be The Washington Redskins!!! one of the best franchises, led by one of the best Coaches to ever coach the game!!!The right man will step up and lead us to the promise land. Whether it,s Brunell, or Ramsey, or Campbell or some other QB This is what coach means by CORE REDSKINS in the mean time we must continue to be the Greatest Fans In the NFL and stand by our Team and our Coach !!!
NUFF SAID
Hail to the Redskins
Skinfomaniac[/QUOTE]

you're right that one man doens't make a team, but one man can ruin it, and right now i'm not sure we having a starting caliber QB. If we had a kitna or griese right now, i think we'd be 10-6 and playoff bound easily. QB is clearly our biggest question mark and weakest position as far as realized potential.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=steveo395]Gibbs said it in the press conference
i hate brunell!!!!
where does he live....im gonna go kill him

[url="http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=10258"]http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=10258[/url]

die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

I'm so glad you didn't find his house man! whew ... :lol:

Re: Brunell Starting
 

This thread is hilarious to read now.

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It is hilarious because I checked out the stats on NFL.com this morning and Brunell is the highest rated passer in the NFC!!!!!! You go Mark! 12 TDs and 2 INT! Oh by the way Santana Moss has more yards than anyone in the receiving category. I doubt Coles will catch him tonight. Ha! Ha!

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Soooo many people were so convinced that Gibbs had lost it, and that Brunell was done.

Many people were really fired up, funny to see that some of those people haven't posted much since then.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

That's always one thing that always gets me about message boards. The really off kilter members seems to come around to feast when it suits them but when things don't go their way they are nowhere to be seen. It'll be funny to see how many of our newest members that have 56 in their usernames sorta slid into oblivion if Arrington starts playing more. Nothing to complain about so I'd bet the attrition rate will be close to 80% Message boards aren't just for complaining guys!

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Soooo many people were so convinced that Gibbs had lost it, and that Brunell was done.

Many people were really fired up, funny to see that some of those people haven't posted much since then.[/QUOTE]

I feel so sorry for those "people" They really can't be enjoying this after spitting out so much hate, but I'm sure they are still compelled to watch!

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I am glad steveo395 didn't kill Brunell.

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[QUOTE=FRPLG]I am glad steveo395 didn't kill Brunell.[/QUOTE]

me too :food-smil