Commanders Post at The Warpath - Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

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Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=SmootSmack;293707]brevity is the soul of wit[/quote]Sometimes, I have stuff to say.

*shrugs*

I'm no english major.

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=GTripp0012;293708]Well, no. I think they are evaluated improperly which is something completely different. The ultimate effect is that the guys who are evaluated to be the really, really cream of the crop best of the best are probably no better than the next tier. The success-failure rates of most top ten picks support my theory. Don't generalize when it isn't necessary.

Getting an Anquan Boldin impact from a 2nd round pick such as...Anquan Boldin is really good value. Getting equal production from a top 3 pick isn't all that special, and with our current D Line situation a WR that is of Anquan Boldin's caliber just doesn't improve our team much at all. It's not like we are a team without any receiving options--not even close.

Tell Kansas City and San Diego that ignoring WRs early in the draft can bottleneck your offense.[/quote]

1200-1400 yards/season consistently is nothing special?
when exactly did KC or SD win their last SB? lack of a true grade-A #1 WR has definately hurt their offenses, though both have monster TEs to help.

what about the certain super bowl with 3 1,000 yard WRs? what about the colt's 3 target passing attack? It certainly didn't hurt them.

DE bust rate is about 50%, it's really not any better than QBs or WRs. I mean, if you want we can throw straw men around all day about why drafting any position other than offensive guard in the first round is likely to be a bust, but that'd be fairly pointless (and yeah, OGs and Cs bust rate are SUPER SUPER low cause very very few go in the 1st round, and those that do go that high are rate VERY highly, like hutch).

I do agree that DEs are always higher priority at equal talent, and even for us it'd probably be a better pick, since our need is dire. That doesn't mean CJ wouldn't help, that he's not the best WR prospect in quite a few years, or that we don't have a gaping hole at the #2 WR spot.

a true #1 WR beats an overpaid LB or a high contract SS, etc though. While signing ian scott and drafting adams or carriker would be much smarter in terms or winning games next year, this deal would beat the briggs or landry rumors in terms of usefulness.

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=GTripp0012;293715]Actually, in the Lions case, they took mega hyped wide receivers (one of the critical errors of building a franchise), a mistake they made way too many times. In defense of Matt Millen, it's just horrible luck that his WR crop of 2003-2005 was as crappy as it was. However, that was 3 years in a row where he passed on players at impact positions on a team that had a lot more serious issues than WR. Even if he had gotten something out of Rogers and Williams, he still made 3 critical errors. Roy Williams appears to have himself a career, but he's going to have to pick up his play in order to justify the 7th overall pick. The other two are just inexcusable.[/quote]

Roy Williams looks like he can be a great WR. Charles Rodgers, Mike Williams, etc.... I don't have the info in front of me, but I'm sure there were some solid QB's, RB's, and O-lineman taken long after them that would be helping that team a ton if their FO had any brains. Point being, the Lions are just an example of how you need to address needs in the draft, not just make that sexy pick.

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=That Guy;293720]1200-1400 yards/season consistently is nothing special?
when exactly did KC or SD win their last SB? lack of a true grade-A #1 WR has definately hurt their offenses, though both have monster TEs to help.

what about the certain super bowl with 3 1,000 yard WRs? what about the colt's 3 target passing attack? It certainly didn't hurt them.

DE bust rate is about 50%, it's really not any better than QBs or WRs. I mean, if you want we can throw straw men around all day about why drafting any position other than offensive guard in the first round is likely to be a bust, but that'd be fairly pointless (and yeah, OGs and Cs bust rate are SUPER SUPER low cause very very few go in the 1st round, and those that do go that high are rate VERY highly, like hutch).

I do agree that DEs are always higher priority at equal talent, and even for us it'd probably be a better pick, since our need is dire. That doesn't mean CJ wouldn't help, that he's not the best WR prospect in quite a few years, or that we don't have a gaping hole at the #2 WR spot.

a true #1 WR beats an overpaid LB or a high contract SS, etc though. While signing ian scott and drafting adams or carriker would be much smarter in terms or winning games next year, this deal would beat the briggs or landry rumors in terms of usefulness.[/quote]Both Briggs and Landry are defensive players, so I'd have to assume they'd bring more help than CJ. Still, the correct move is to go DT or at the very least DE.

Every year, 31 teams do not win the super bowl. That doesn't mean Kansas City and San Diego did not create cream of the crop offenses over the past few years without paying too much attention to WRs. The Patriots and Eagles don't overvalue WRs either and their track record is even more successful than KC or SD overall, just not on the offensive end.

Again, the Colts did not invest top 10 picks into highly hyped wide receivers. They obviously value the position, but when they got those top picks, they made selections like Edgerrin James, Peyton Manning, and Dwight Freeney (who was the 11th pick in 2002 I think).

Bust rate...it happens. When you aren't talking about QBs, drafting the right guy is at least somewhat a function of luck. But you can always increase your chances of drafting quality players by focusing on the guys with the most college experience. Once a guy hits the NFL, he's going to be subjected to the same amount of practice time as every player of his class, so it's impossible to make a gain on experience on someone after draft day. Obviously, injuries are relatively unpredictable and will hinder development (see: Grossman, Rex), but if a guy only started for 2 seasons in college and then came out, your team is better off looking at a 4 year starter.

Obviously all the experience in the world won't make up for a significant gap in skill, but 4 year starters who become high draft picks don't bust all that often.

As I stated in prior posts, it's possible that CJ could hurt our offense as a rookie if the human nature of playcalling underutilizes Moss and Cooley upon his arrival. Additionally, it reduces the number of packages we can use when he, Moss, and Cooley all need playing time. No one is saying that he doesn't represent a significant upgrade over Randle El in a vaccuum, but the practical application of a "dominant" No. 2 receiver to this offense seems like the epitome of overkill.

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

I actually believe that you draft for value, but that value is relative to a players' position, and to your needs. If there were no good DL this year, I wouldn't be advocating the use of the #6 pick on a DLineman.

But there are some pretty good ones out there, and we can't justify passing on all of them.

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=GTripp0012;293725]I actually believe that you draft for value, but that value is relative to a players' position, and to your needs. If there were no good DL this year, I wouldn't be advocating the use of the #6 pick on a DLineman.

But there are some pretty good ones out there, and we can't justify passing on all of them.[/quote]

The depth at DL in this years' draft is absurd. Adams, Anderson, Okoye, Branch, Carriker, Moss, Crowder, Spencer, Harrell, DeMarcus Tyler, (the other) Calvin Johnson (DE)... I'm probably forgetting some people- It's one of the deepest drafts in years for D-line

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

I hate to use Albert Connell as an example, but '99 was a good year for him. He's one example of how a mid-round pick took a couple of years to develop, and came out of nowhere to provide a nice complimentary role opposite Michael Westbrook.

Turns out it was only pure luck that both of them finally found a groove both in the same season and allowed us to have the most explosive offense of 1999 second only to the St. Louis Rams.

Maybe it's a bad example because we all know what happened to both Connell and Westbrook. I think if Brad Johnson could have been more consistent, and Westbrook hadn't gotten injured in the second game of the 2000 season, we might have had yet another prolific duo at wideout and a strong campaign that year.

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

absolutely horrible trade. We dont address anything on the defensive side of the ball, and we lose our #2 RB?? that is absolutely ridiculous. Beside there is that thing again "Ladell is a core Redskin" that should tell you right now he is on the way out. I think this would be a HUGE mistake on our part. CJ is truely the best player available in the draft. Probably one of the most gifted WR to ever come out of the draft. I would be all for this deal if we could find a way to keep Betts. This would be different had we not given away every draft pick we have for this coming draft.

if they deal Betts, here is what we are stuck with : no true # 2 RB. No DL drafted. At least the Briggs deal gives a LB and a pick to get the DL.

HUGE MISTAKE

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=#56fanatic;293744]absolutely horrible trade. We dont address anything on the defensive side of the ball, and we lose our #2 RB?? that is absolutely ridiculous. Beside there is that thing again "Ladell is a core Redskin" that should tell you right now he is on the way out. I think this would be a HUGE mistake on our part. CJ is truely the best player available in the draft. Probably one of the most gifted WR to ever come out of the draft. I would be all for this deal if we could find a way to keep Betts. This would be different had we not given away every draft pick we have for this coming draft.

if they deal Betts, here is what we are stuck with : no true # 2 RB. No DL drafted. At least the Briggs deal gives a LB and a pick to get the DL.

HUGE MISTAKE[/quote]

true

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

Not saying I'd support this trade at all, but RBs are easy to come by and a third round pick could still nab a pretty good DE or DT.

Again, not saying I support this trade, but it wouldn't be the end of the world either.

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=Jigsaw1;293741]Well you know what i think

it would be pretty stupid of the redskins to trade with cleveland
just to get Calvin

because we all know thats what they want to do[/quote]
welcome, and i don't think the skins want anything to do with Johnson. right now it seems like every day the skins have a trade lined up with someone for their number 6 pick. this is good work by the front office. if someone really wants that pick, they are thinking there are some other suitors out there, that also want the pick. this way the skins get maximum value for their pick. and is your user name a reference to the saw movies?

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=dmek25;293750]welcome, and i don't think the skins want anything to do with Johnson. right now it seems like every day the skins have a trade lined up with someone for their number 6 pick. this is good work by the front office. if someone really wants that pick, they are thinking there are some other suitors out there, that also want the pick. this way the skins get maximum value for their pick. and is your user name a reference to the saw movies?[/quote]

naw that is my cousin it is his nickname

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

This proposed trade is another example of why I think the Redskins are the laughing stock of the NFL. The Skins are the Rodney Dangerfields of the NFL. They get no respect! The Lance Briggs deal is a joke. This rumor is even worse. No way in hell do you give up Ladell Betts, #6 overall pick and a second round pick for next year to draft a wide receiver. That's just stupid. I don't care how good Calvin Johnson is or could be. That's just dumb, when you have the worst pass rush in the NFL and its been that way for a couple of years. Whether the Skins move up or down or even stay put in the draft, they better pick a defensive linemen or else I will be sick.

Re: Thoughts on Potential Draft Trade With Cleveland!!!

[quote=hail_2_da_skins;293775]This proposed trade is another example of why I think the Redskins are the laughing stock of the NFL.[/quote]

What does that make the Raiders or the Cardinals then?