Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

You know what i hate about Vinny Cerratto is his inability to see into the future ... he should only pick up HoF players with every pick ...

ASeriously though .. this is Vinnys first year fully in charge, I think he has done an okay job assembling his team of scouts and really it is too soon to judge him .

In the past he has been handcuffed a little by not really being the man, for most of his time with the skins we have adopted the NE/Philly approach and that is player acquisition by committee .

I think to judge him on that is a little unfair . It is also way to soon to jump on him for the 2008 draft ... give it a couple of years without major roster churn and coaching changes and we might actually see a good team in Washington ..

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

For god sakes this doesn't have to be an either or kind of thing!

The fact that the Skins have ignored the lines for so long probably DOES say a lot about the grading process that Vinny does and that he generally looks for flaws in highly qualified line prospects that he doesn't see in lesser qualified receiver prospects. The fact that Devin Thomas is on the Skins is evidence of this.

And I don't disagree that this fuels a lot of the anger in the Fire Cerrato crowds.

But even if Vinny's draft grades come out flawed every year (not a good sign), he's STILL right to grab the highest player on his board at a position of relative need (anything but TE, FB, S, and QB on this team). It would be irresponsble for him to do otherwise.

Hopefully there will be a consensus BPA lineman when we pick in the first round. Problem is, since those guys tend to be significantly overvalued, you know there won't be.

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

[quote=bedlamVR;513172]I do put "fans" in quotes because there are so many "fans" who just like to kick their team when they are down .. and my god it is easy to do just pile on. I have stopped posting on ExtremehissyfitohmygoshithinkihavehurtmymanginaasbadasthisteamsucksSkins message board because that is all that is there .

Larry Micheals - often seen as a propagandist for the FO said something interesting and he called out the fans in a recent radio show and he was right to do so . It is easy to hate on your team when things are going badly, say your going to burn your merchandise never watch another down etc etc that doesn't make you a fan ... fan is shortened from the word fanatic from fanaticism as defined as

[I]"Fanaticism is an emotion of being filled with excessive, uncritical zeal, particularly for an extreme religious or political cause or in some cases sports, or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby. Philosopher George Santayana defines fanaticism as "redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim"[1]; according to Winston Churchill, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject". By either description the fanatic displays very strict standards and little tolerance for contrary ideas or opinions.

The difference between a fan and a fanatic is that while both have an overwhelming liking or interest in a given subject, behaviour of a fanatic will be viewed as violating prevailing social norms, while that of a fan will not violate those norms "[/I]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanaticism]Fanaticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Essentially I would expect a fan to stand behind his team no matter what ... that separates fans from guys who just watch football on a sunday/monday. I am in the UK I stay up late to watch the Skins games when I can I track down game files on the internet I spend (too much) time and effort following the team I support the Redskins and all of their players and have done so since 1984 ... I don't enjoy being lumped into with people who have nothing better to do on a Sunday so watch the game ... so yes I do put "fans" in quotations


When we were 6-2 we had posters saying stuff like "Jim Zorn is excellent, Jason Campbell is fantastic everything is wonderful", and now we are 7-7 people are saying " everything sucks we are the worst team in the league Jim Zorn has no place in the NFL and Jason Campbell couldn't start for divison II collage team ..etc etc" The problem I have with that is it is the same "fans" ... fair weather knee jerk idiots who have as much right to call themselves fans as I do to call myself a hedgehog ...[/quote]

To listen to you and others, it seems that you cannot call yourself a fan if you dare to call out any facet of the team and criticize it. I've never believed that. Fans have a right to get mad at their team. And that's not peculiar to Redskins fans, as others have said.

When we were 6-2, yes people were happy, riding high, and enjoying life. Now that we're a 1-5 slide, you'll find that people are not as happy, and are critical of the team's play and front office decisions. That's called human nature. Being unhappy when things go wrong, and feeling good when things are going right.

Now about your statement here:

[I]"Some people point to the Tuna when talking about draft picks and that is the way to go... Parcells drafted all OL and DL and that is a good way to go about building a team from the ground up, he went a similar direction with the Cowboys, but he did not draft well he simply drafted a lot."[/I]

He didn't draft well? He built one of the best defensive front sevens in football from scratch. Marcus Spears, Demarcus Ware, Chris Canty, Jay Ratliff (a 7th round draft pick) Brady James -- those guys are going to us fits for years to come. And he did it all with just a few drafts. Jerry probably had a hand in it too. But I don't see how you can say he didn't draft well.

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

Cerrato is a hack, and should feel ashamed taking money for destroying a team....

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

"You don't draft for need", is that like swimming and not coming up for air? We've got to get fresh guys in their with some new talent.

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

Vinny Cerrato = The Peter Angelos (Baltimore Orioles owner) of the NFL?

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

I think GTripp said it best. The core philosophy of drafting the best player available is a very sound philosophy. However the problem is the guy creating the draft board (Mr Cerrato), either conciously or unconsiously, is constantly overvaluing skill players and undervaluing the guys up front.

Personally I don't believe in coincidences and I think the BPA available explanation for the three pass catchers is a PR stunt meant to justify the fact that the Redskins drafted for a weird combination of want and need rather then truly going after the BPA. To be honest if we had really gone after the BPA we probably would have ended up with at least a new linebacker and a center, as generally those are two positions that can see more talented players fall through the cracks.

The teams track record in going after recievers since Snyder got the team is a testement to how badly the team wants a Randy Moss, T.O., or god forbid an Ocho Cinco within their ranks. Yet I hope that with all the bitching from the fans this season the team will finally start to take the status of our front lines seriously, and right now I'm hoping that come April either Michael Oher, Terrance Cody, or Michael Johnson is a Redskin. Either way this obcession with finding skill players has to be put on hold till we get our priorities in order and right now that priority is our front lines.

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;512813] Keep in mind I have no objection to Vinny's 2nd round trade down. Personally I thought it was one of the great moves in the draft.

So in retrospect, knowing how the draft turned out and looking at how this season turned out I think our ideal draft should have been as follows.

[B]34th - Jordy Nelson - WR - Kansas State [/B]- They get the big productive Reciever they want, complete with a team first attitude. Not that Thomas has this problem, then again Kelly might but he hasn't shown it since he's been here.
[B]48th - Pat Sims - DT - Auburn - [/B]We get the big guy up the middle to help create a push and take pressure off our DE's.
[B]51st - Jerremy Zutah - OL - Rutgers[/B]- Would have been perfect for us this year, especially considering he can play everywhere. Probably would be starting at RT this week.[/quote]


I also thought the trade down effort was a great move, but I didn't care for the 2 WRs and 1 TE picks at the time. I was hoping for the WR/DT/OL combo you show!
Best assessment of this entire thread! Great job Dirtbag! Major props!

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

You guys realize that this team isn't going to the promise land unless they fire Vinny, and hire a new president and GM. In other words, redoing the entire front office.

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

[quote=bedlamVR;513174]Do you just block out 1998 ? Okay it was a terrible season but the guy wasn't even playing football when we picked him up . He was drafted by the chargers in 1994 was cut in 1995 played for the British Columbian lions for a while then came into the skins as the emergency starter and put up massive stats for a redskins QB ..

3,441 yards, 23 touchdowns, and 11 interceptions and ran in 2 more behind a very leaky cobbled together offensive line.

We offered him 12 million over 4 years ...he went to the rams ...

That was also the year we "found" Stephen Davis, though he was mostly used as a FB making holes for Skip Hicks ...

Okay I have a counter question ... did we have a glut of tall athletic WR's on the team before the 2008 draft ... ? I get your point You can if you solely go off PFW draft preview end up getting into trouble drafting BPA (see the lions), but the problem with the Lions is they did nothing to sure up the rest of the team and did nothing to really scout the players they were drafting and were wowed by the highlight reels . You cannot ignore need but really in these days of free agency unless you are picking in the top 5-7 then you shouldn't be going into the draft with a desperate need position ...[/quote]

No, we did not. But I'm not talking last year. Last year WR was a need(though TE wasn't). I'm talking the philosophy in general

But my point is what if a tall athletic WR is the best available player in the upcoming draft when it's time for the Skin's to pick?

Re: Cerrato Vaguely Explains Draft Strategy (with Questionable Evidence)
 

I think GTripp said it better than me ... it is a combination of need and BPA .

If you draft soley on need then you run the real risk of reaching for players of not good value .

If you go solely off BPA then you have chance of being Matt Millen .

The trick comes how you grade the players . The grade should be based on the kinds of players and ages you have on your roster and the grades players have coming out of the draft .

If you have a pro bowl starter then the grade for any player has to start low... if you have an aging average injury plagued starter then the grade at that position should start higher .

Then you have to go about grading players from the draft and how each team does that is different . Remember Parcells for example graded Cooley as a 6/7th round pick but picked Frasno in the second round ..

Usiong this year as an example the highest rated players based on the roster probably included WR,DT, OG and LB .

Had Mayo or Branden Albert fallen in the fist to 21 or within reach I am pretty confident they would have been the guy, we had shown interest in both . I think it is interesting that of all the player Vinny singled out we Calais Campbell and Philip Merling which makes me think we were at least looking at them . The FO spent time with Merling when the scouted Kelly . It is possible that the Skins were looking at Campbell at 50 .

Another problem with the draft you can target a player think he would go around a specific part of the draft and then see him picked one place ahead of you whcih meens your assesment was right but is fustrating .

OL and DL are notoriously hard to draft because thier value varies from team to team depending on what they are asked to do and the system they ran in collage . Look around the league and you see a smattering of high round picks that turn to nothing ( Jacob Rodgers - taken in the 2nd round with Parcells out of the league in 2 years) and undrafted FAs who start for years (Saturday of the Colts for example) .

I don't think we were looking specifically for a RT, i think they thought they had a guy in Heyer who could come in and be solid ... he is a one dimesnional player however and his run blocking does not compare to his pass blocking skills . any OL prospects they were looking at were primarily guards with both Thomas and Kendell reaching the end of the line.

I also don't think draft picks would have helped the line right now . I think the problem lies in overcomplicated blocking schemes and injuries to key players on the line (Samuels) . If you loose a top 5 LT the rest of the line is going to look an awful lot worse no matter who comes in to replace him .

To answer your question though if a stud athletic WR is availble when we pick he must at least be considered . To dismiss the player out of hand is irresponsible, but you have to look at who is on the roster and if you think Thomas and Kelly are the guys for the future ..