Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Kalisto2010;642205]I wish I lived in the world you lived in. Where institutional racism is non existent. However, in the real world where I reside it's still a pervasive problem, despite many falsely claiming that it's no longer a hinderance. Here's some facts to back up my thought processes, I'm getting tired of reading un-verifiable conjecture.

[B]Devah Pager[/B]

Princeton University [B]August 9, 2008[/B]

[B]Is racial discrimination a thing of the past?[/B]

Debates about the relevance of discrimination in today's society have been difficult to resolve, in part because of the challenges in identifying, measuring, and documenting its presence or absence in all but extreme cases. Discrimination is rarely something that can be observed explicitly.

The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record,[B] white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.[/B]

Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality:[B] Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.[/B]

[URL="http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/"]Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - Study: Black man and white felon – same chances for hire « - Blogs from CNN.com[/URL]

[B]This is why we need the Rooney rule[/B].[/quote]
So I'm guessing they all got interviewed by white people? Wonder what would have happened if they went to black owned businesses and did the same thing? I'm sure those results would then be flipped.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;642247]Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line.

Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.[/quote]
Professors just people who fail at doing what they teach and say they know so much about.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GMScud;642421]I gotta ask then, how do you feel about affirmative action in the schools/workplace? You think it's wrong (and I agree) that a white man with poor qualifications (i.e. felony conviction) is looked at on the same level as black man who is better qualified for a job. Ok.

So if affirmative action results in college admission to a black kid at the expense of a white kid who is slightly more qualified, is that wrong? Kind of a double standard, no?[/quote]But how do you measure a more qualified student? In a vacuum, test scores and GPA would be perfectly adequate to determine the best candidate for acceptance into a school, but the problem is that applicants don't come from the same vacuum, they come from different socio-economic backgrounds and levels of education (suburban vs. inner city), and then you have to determine who the most qualified candidate is when it may not be so obvious. Most standards would simply determine the most qualified candidate to be the one most similar to the selectors.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GTripp0012;642441][B]But how do you measure a more qualified student?[/B] In a vacuum, test scores and GPA would be perfectly adequate to determine the best candidate for acceptance into a school, but the problem is that applicants don't come from the same vacuum, they come from different socio-economic backgrounds and levels of education (suburban vs. inner city), and then you have to determine who the most qualified candidate is when it may not be so obvious. Most standards would simply determine the most qualified candidate to be the one most similar to the selectors.[/quote]

Well that's for the admissions committee of each school to determine. I'm sure they all have specific criteria they weigh in different ways, and they are obviously smart enough to consider things like suburbs vs inner-city, income levels, etc etc.

In the end what I'm talking about is, after the admissions committees finish evaluating applicants (including the factors you mentioned), is it not a double standard (compared to Kalisto's comments) to give admission to a black candidate they found to be less qualified than a white candidate simply because he's a minority?

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GMScud;642442]Well that's for the admissions committee of each school to determine. I'm sure they all have specific criteria they weigh in different ways, and they are obviously smart enough to consider things like suburbs vs inner-city, income levels, etc etc.

In the end what I'm talking about is, after the admissions committees finish evaluating applicants (including the factors you mentioned), is it not a double standard (compared to Kalisto's comments) to give admission to a black candidate they found to be less qualified than a white candidate simply because he's a minority?[/quote]Well, then I think it's a strawman. I mean, if the assertion is that they've concluded that the white student is more qualified, then no amount of affirmative action is going to change who gets accepted. It sounds like it's already been decided.

Even one step further, though, the Rooney Rule doesn't even go this far. It stops at the interview process. So if I have a problem with the Rooney Rule, it's that it doesn't actually accomplish what it's intended to. Too easy to get around it.

But, I mean, there's only so much the NFL can do if Snyder is going to hire Shanahan. They can't make it illegal for him to do that. At the end of the day, there's no actual meaningful interview process going on here, so the application of the Rooney Rule is not helpful.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GTripp0012;642444]Well, then I think it's a strawman. I mean, if the assertion is that they've concluded that the white student is more qualified, then no amount of affirmative action is going to change who gets accepted. It sounds like it's already been decided.

Even one step further, though, the Rooney Rule doesn't even go this far. It stops at the interview process. So if I have a problem with the Rooney Rule, it's that it doesn't actually accomplish what it's intended to. Too easy to get around it.

But, I mean, there's only so much the NFL can do if Snyder is going to hire Shanahan. They can't make it illegal for him to do that. [B]At the end of the day, there's no actual meaningful interview process going on here, so the application of the Rooney Rule is not helpful[/B].[/quote]

Not in this case, but that's the beauty of the rule. It doesn't force any team's hand when it comes to actually making a decision, but rather it encourages a more extensive search for qualified coaches. Critics of the rule have to come to grips with the fact that the rule in no way, shape, or form inhibits a team from making a head coaching decision. In other words, at best the rule accomplishes great things, while at worst it causes no damage.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=firstdown;642433]So I'm guessing they all got interviewed by white people? Wonder what would have happened if they went to black owned businesses and did the same thing? I'm sure those results would then be flipped.[/quote]

Thank you for illustrating why we need the Rooney rule. People are not to be trusted Black or White. I'm glad you agree.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=firstdown;642434]Professors just people who fail at doing what they teach and say they know so much about.[/quote]

Wow, so people who earn P.H.D's are considered failures in your opinion?

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

well according to PFT they would have followed the rooney rule..

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/19/redskins-wont-comment-on-blache-report/]Redskins won't comment on Blache report | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

if this is true..

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Coff;642447]Not in this case, but that's the beauty of the rule. It doesn't force any team's hand when it comes to actually making a decision, but rather it [B]encourages [/B]a more extensive search for qualified coaches. Critics of the rule have to come to grips with the fact that the rule in no way, shape, or form inhibits a team from making a head coaching decision. In other words, at best the rule accomplishes great things, while at worst it causes no damage.[/quote]

the simple fact is the nfl should let each team hire and fire who it wishes, without [B]forcing [/B](not encouraging) a team to interview someone just becuase of their skin color.
what if the lions decide they want tony dungy to be their next head coach, thats their guy, no ifs ands or buts about it. should the nfl [B]force [/B]them to interview a white candidate? why always black and white. why doesn't the nfl go ahead and [B]force [/B]each team to interview a hispanic or a female, i mean the whole thing is just a pile of crap. stay outta my buisness.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=firstdown;642434]Professors just people who fail at doing what they teach and say they know so much about.[/quote]

Sometimes professors, including myself, fail to practice what they teach. I don't think that they do this more than anyone else, though, leaving me to resent your anti-intellectual depiction.