Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=punch it in;1132965]JR is that you?
What do you mean exactly by as good as he is going to get throwing the ball? All these other things you refer to him getting better at certainly will improve "throwing" the ball?? I remind you again to go back and look at Drew Brees when he was 30 games into his career. It was not good. He is not the only one who improved after such a short time but he is the big name.
Edit: I will say again that I do not necessarily think KC is going to be Drew Breese - I like using Breese as an example though because of the amazing turnaround his career took when he got players around him. Does that make him a "game manager who is not capable of carrying a team on his own"? No. It makes him a quarterback that got a chance to showcase his capabilities thanks to a TEAM around him.[/quote]

What I mean more specifically is physically. His physical abilities are what they are and we have seen enough to have a good idea of his capabilities.

I am assuming that QB's even if they start out rough and inefficient, from the get-go you see the physical gifts there. Andrew Luck for example has been a bit of a turnover machine but the physical tools are present and weren't something that were "coached up"

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=NoCalHail;1132970]What I mean more specifically is physically. His physical abilities are what they are and we have seen enough to have a good idea of his capabilities.



I am assuming that QB's even if they start out rough and inefficient, from the get-go you see the physical gifts there. Andrew Luck for example has been a bit of a turnover machine but the physical tools are present and weren't something that were "coached up"[/QUOTE]


So he can throw the ball further from a standing position? I guess if this were American gladiator id take more stock in a quarterbacks physical attributes. KC has proven he can take a hit. He moves well. He can throw the ball plenty far. Dont have to be too tremendously physically gifted to play quarterback. Just have to be able to .......play quarterback.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

KC's arm strength is not top-tier. It's not a "candy-ass" arm talent either. It is - like all things Kirk, somewhere in the middle. Certainly good enough to be an NFL starter.

Physically, in response to your earlier question, yes. Kirk has reached his ceiling.

As to the mental aspects of the game, he has improved his "floor" significantly in that we have not had a "Oh-Dear-God" game in quite since the Jets.

Has he reached his ceiling as to the mental aspects? I am willing to reconsider, but still think what we have seen since the Jets game is what he is - Solid starter but very scheme and personnel dependent. I just don't think any substantial growth beyond what we have seen is likely to occur.

Again, what have seen since the Jets game is solid starting QB who, with the right scheme and personnel, is a QB that could take a team deep into the play-offs and possibly win a SB w/out the need for a Ravenesque defense or Beast Mode back.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1132978]KC's arm strength is not top-tier. It's not a "candy-ass" arm talent either. It is - like all things Kirk, somewhere in the middle. Certainly good enough to be an NFL starter.

Physically, in response to your earlier question, yes. Kirk has reached his ceiling.

As to the mental aspects of the game, he has improved his "floor" significantly in that we have not had a "Oh-Dear-God" game in quite since the Jets.

Has he reached his ceiling as to the mental aspects? I am willing to reconsider, but still think what we have seen since the Jets game is what he is - Solid starter but very scheme and personnel dependent. I just don't think any substantial growth beyond what we have seen is likely to occur.

Again, what have seen since the Jets game is solid starting QB who, with the right scheme and personnel, is a QB that could take a team deep into the play-offs and possibly win a SB w/out the need for a Ravenesque defense or Beast Mode back.[/quote]

watching the Carolina vs Skins game, its painfully clear. Watching Cam throw and watching Cousins throw....Cam can make every throw and has amazing arm strength. Cousins...well....not so much

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

We should all know by now that you need more then arm strength to be a NFL QB. (RG3)

As long as Kirk can make all the throws (which he can), it shouldn't matter if he can throw it to the moon.

Also, most QB hit their ceiling in physical traits once the get to NFL. It's the mental aspect that sets the bar for an NFL QB. I would hope everyone on this board knows that

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1132979]watching the Carolina vs Skins game, its painfully clear. Watching Cam throw and watching Cousins throw....Cam can make every throw and has amazing arm strength. Cousins...well....not so much[/QUOTE]


Cam has been terribly inaccurate for years until now. He has always been physically gifted but until he learned how to read the field and make his throws he was never this good.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

What amazing arm strength buys you is the ability to zip the ball in even when you're off balance. And when are you most often off balance? When you're being pressured.

That's what Jay Cutler gives the Bears, he can be falling back on his ass as a double A gap blitz comes in his face, and do a 3/4 motion and still zip it in tight coverage. But as we know, that's only a small part of the QB equation, and nobody would anoint Cutler just because of that.

Cousins won't be able to give us that. But must he to succeed? I don't think so.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

Right, as some have brought up examples already (at work sorry with the slow response).

Kirk doesn't have a noodle arm, but his arm strength isn't towards the top either. No one doubts his ability to take a 5-7 step drop and heave the ball downfield to an open D-Jax. We've seen him do it.

But there are other routes, especially crossing patterns where the QB has to get the ball to the WR with a lot of zip not because it is a deep pass but because of the route, and the coverage and the fact that the catch will be made with the WR running towards the sideline with little room to get feet down after the ball hits his hands.

He simply doesn't have the zip on his throws that elite arm-strength QB's do. It doesn't negate everything else about him it's just simply an observation.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=NoCalHail;1132986]Right, as some have brought up examples already (at work sorry with the slow response).



Kirk doesn't have a noodle arm, but his arm strength isn't towards the top either. No one doubts his ability to take a 5-7 step drop and heave the ball downfield to an open D-Jax. We've seen him do it.



But there are other routes, especially crossing patterns where the QB has to get the ball to the WR with a lot of zip not because it is a deep pass but because of the route, and the coverage and the fact that the catch will be made with the WR running towards the sideline with little room to get feet down after the ball hits his hands.



He simply doesn't have the zip on his throws that elite arm-strength QB's do. It doesn't negate everything else about him it's just simply an observation.[/QUOTE]


"Elite arm strength QB's" any better than "elite quick release qb's", "elite read the field qb's" or "elite stay healthy qb's"? Granted one who has it all is the undisputed king. However I think its silly to suggest that being in the middle of the pack for any one of several categories that make up a good qb is even an issue. If KC had a noodle arm than it would be worthy of discussion. Although i seem to be very involved with what i deem an un worthy discussion so.....

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1132979]watching the Carolina vs Skins game, its painfully clear. Watching Cam throw and watching Cousins throw....Cam can make every throw and has amazing arm strength. Cousins...well....not so much[/quote]

I hate to harken back to RGIII glory days, but I am going to. (sidenote: ugh, close the thread to keep nimwits like me from posting!!!)

I remember being at training camp and watching RGIII and Cousins side by side dropping back, turning and releasing on the throws. RGIII was just a much more smooth performer. That's what I think of when I see JR talking about ceiling vs floor. Cousins is never going to be that fluid all in one package with great arm strength smooth release and an ability to make "magic" happen. What he is, is a QB that can be a consistent starter with enough mojo to win the games his team should win. Right now that's where I see his ceiling.

As for his floor, it continues to rise. and that's a good thing.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

I'm about to go to sleep while lying on Kirk's floor looking up at his ceiling.

I agree that Kirk is probably scheme and personnel dependent. But that works for me because he is good in the scheme we run and SM will continue to upgrade the personnel.

I'd like to suggest a simple test to determine if Kirk should be our guy moving forward. The test is: Observe how he performs in the next three games with the division title on the line. That should tell us what we need to know.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=Bucket;1132980]We should all know by now that you need more then arm strength to be a NFL QB. (RG3)





As long as Kirk can make all the throws (which he can), it shouldn't matter if he can throw it to the moon.





Also, most QB hit their ceiling in physical traits once the get to NFL. It's the mental aspect that sets the bar for an NFL QB. I would hope everyone on this board knows that[/QUOTE]



This.. If I remember correctly Jeff George could throw the hell out of the football..

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=NoCalHail;1132986]Right, as some have brought up examples already (at work sorry with the slow response).





Kirk doesn't have a noodle arm, but his arm strength isn't towards the top either. No one doubts his ability to take a 5-7 step drop and heave the ball downfield to an open D-Jax. We've seen him do it.





But there are other routes, especially crossing patterns where the QB has to get the ball to the WR with a lot of zip not because it is a deep pass but because of the route, and the coverage and the fact that the catch will be made with the WR running towards the sideline with little room to get feet down after the ball hits his hands.





He simply doesn't have the zip on his throws that elite arm-strength QB's do. It doesn't negate everything else about him it's just simply an observation.[/QUOTE]



Watch Joe Montana run the west coast offense.. Strong arm is overrated.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

This division is there for the taking and know one is stepping up.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

I just cant believe the double standard. I believe JC was a check down QB and people screamed at him yet KC is doing the same thing and most people are praising him. He reminds me of Chad Pennington smart QB arm not strong enough and looks like an NFL QB. I hope we don't make the same mistake Miami made with Tannenhill and sign KC to a stupid contract extension. Everyone is entitled to there opinion and our best QB doesn't dress on Sunday. Please come up with something better than is that Griffin must be Griffin typing that. Sheep.