Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;640439]I am quickly coming to this decision myself. Not just because of that, but because of his defense of playing ARE, his comments on Davis - to the effect that it was Davis' fault for his lack of production because until Cooley went down the coaches couldn't get Davis going. Everything Zorn defends comes from the over cautious approach of leaving the veterans in to the DETRIMENT of the rookies/2nd year class' progress. I gave a lot of credit to SLewis(still do) but I wonder if Zorn would have been an obstacle if the season ending injuries hadn't taken place. In Zorn's statement on ARE, he took responsibility, and said that it was because he is confident in ARE, but why??? because no one else had given him that confidence, but if ARE is not executing after several games, you pull him, it shouldn't take a season meltdown for a younger player to get a chance, even if he is going to make some mistakes, he might learn from them, as opposed to ARE who is not learning anything new, just making the same mistakes over and over. (sorry for the run on sentence!) Zorn made basically the same justification for not getting FD involved, but now we see that may have been a big mistake. Same with DT, get him involved and use him even if he's not 100% pro bowl yet.

[B]All our griping about the slow development period seems to fall onto Zorn's shoulders once you listen to his defense/explanations about why FD and ARE are doing what they are doing.[/B]

And that is the HC responsibility above and beyond playcalling, and because of his defense of the indefensible I would say Zorn needs to go.[/quote]

There is no defense for having ARE return punts. He also returned them for Cowher and Joe Gibbs. He did alright for Cowher, but not for Gibbs, and he never stopped it even though we wondered why. I expect Zorn to be the one to put an end to it. Why it has taken this long I don't know but Gibbs kept him there throughout his second stint as HC as far as I can remember and he wasn't much better then. Zorn has said repeatedly it would take 2 years for the receivers to become efficient in this system as well as the QB. Trent Dilfer has commented on how complex this system is when in full force and other QB's familiar in this offense put 2-3 years as the timeline for becoming efficient in it. Could it be that as some players have said, the game is slowing down for them and they're starting to get it? I often think this staff is too cautious myself but someone like DT who acts like all he needed was the chance, couldn't even run the correct route half the time. I'm glad to see he's coming on but I find it hard to blame Zorn for him taking this long to do so. Even his own father said it takes DT 2 years to understand what to do and predicted this year he would come out strong. Davis seemed to have a case of the fumbles earlier this year, glad to see he's worked harder on holding on to the ball and put in extra time on his blocking. I guess he was just waiting to start to improve? Zorn has made mistakes but I'm not sure changing coaches is the answer at this point. As the HC he has to shoulder some blame, but not all of it. We're having growing pains but as of late, at least it appears we're growing. We're showing signs of what he said we would.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=53Fan;640467]There is no defense for having ARE return punts. He also returned them for Cowher and Joe Gibbs. He did alright for Cowher, but not for Gibbs, and he never stopped it even though we wondered why. I expect Zorn to be the one to put an end to it. Why it has taken this long I don't know but Gibbs kept him there throughout his second stint as HC as far as I can remember and he wasn't much better then. Zorn has said repeatedly it would take 2 years for the receivers to become efficient in this system as well as the QB. Trent Dilfer has commented on how complex this system is when in full force and other QB's familiar in this offense put 2-3 years as the timeline for becoming efficient in it. Could it be that as some players have said, the game is slowing down for them and they're starting to get it? I often think this staff is too cautious myself but someone like DT who acts like all he needed was the chance, couldn't even run the correct route half the time. I'm glad to see he's coming on but I find it hard to blame Zorn for him taking this long to do so. Even his own father said it takes DT 2 years to understand what to do and predicted this year he would come out strong. Davis seemed to have a case of the fumbles earlier this year, glad to see he's worked harder on holding on to the ball and put in extra time on his blocking.[B] I guess he was just waiting to start to improve?[/B][/quote]

I don't know where the interview is, but Zorn said that they had been wanting to get FD involved but he wasn't showing enough, but once Cooley went down and he was forced in, FD stepped up. But the way Zorn said it made it sound like it was FDs fault. I am saying by looking at the repeated decision by Zorn to hold off on putting a young player in, FD knew he wasn't going to get the chance regardless. Look, Cooley and JC had a great timing, so back off their practice [U]a little[/U] and put FD in to force him to prepare. That's a coach's job, maybe not the HC, but again, if the coaches and players know that the younger guys aren't getting in even if a player takes all the practices off, then why are they going to try to get in. It was the atmosphere Zorn thrived in, where the senior class was gonna get everything, and the freshman had to wait, regardless of how they practiced.

and also just realized this is way :offtopic: sorry guys.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=SmootSmack;640456]When the Browns talk to Holmgren it's "The Browns are taking decisive action now to make fundamental changes to the organization" When the Redskins talk to Shanahan it's "Dan Snyder has no patience, he's always meddling"[/quote]

Smack, I would actually enjoy the privledge of being able to ask Mr. Snyder what he considers his credentials to be that favors him being so heavily involved in the day to day operation of the team.

I know it's his team and he can do what he wants, but he does not have a football resume, his success is rooted elsewhere. He's a ten year owner now, and I'm convinced that had he had some history where professional sports are concerned, the team would not have been and continue to be a revolving door.

He consistently maintains the fact he want's to win and I really believe he does. What's so difficult for him to take a step back, hire the people who know how to do what he's "trying" to do and evaluate it's success or failure? I would think even he would look at his body of work since becoming owner and say to himself this is not working, and ask himself what can I do to make it better as oposed to constantly dismissing personnel when the team fails to win on a timeline.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=Longtimefan;640479]Smack, [B]I would actually enjoy the privledge of being able to ask Mr. Snyder what he considers his credentials to be that favors him being so heavily involved in the day to day operation of the team.[/B]

I know it's his team and he can do what he wants, but he does not have a football resume, his success is rooted elsewhere. [B]He's a ten year owner now[/B], and I'm convinced that had he had some history where professional sports are concerned, the team would not have been and continue to be a revolving door.

He consistently maintains the fact he want's to win and I really believe he does. What's so difficult for him to take a step back, hire the people who know how to do what he's "trying" to do and evaluate it's success or failure? I would think even he would look at his body of work since becoming owner and say to himself this is not working, and ask himself what can I do to make it better as oposed to constantly dismissing personnel when the team fails to win on a timeline.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure he'd give you the answer you gave yourself. He's been an owner for the past 10 years, spending each and every day involved in football operations. He'd say he understands the NFL and how it works and he has a vision on how to build a winner. Like it or not, he's got a decade of experience with players, coaches, front office, the salary cap, league personnel, etc. He has 'credentials' on paper. Now the reality is that the results have been mediocre. 2 playoff appearances, 1 playoff win is not getting it done. He will admit he's made mistakes and strongly state his desire to win (which I believe) but will also remain committed to doing it his way.

At the end of the conversation you'd probably wish you hadn't had it because you'd be more frustrated than you were before!

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=SmootSmack;640461]Like Bruce Allen[/quote]

He would be perfect!

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=celts32;640488]He would be perfect![/quote]

I think he will always be someone who is in Snyder's ear because they're good friends. But I don't know that he would be employed under Snyder

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;640477]I don't know where the interview is, but Zorn said that they had been wanting to get FD involved but he wasn't showing enough, but once Cooley went down and he was forced in, FD stepped up. But the way Zorn said it made it sound like it was FDs fault. I am saying by looking at the repeated decision by Zorn to hold off on putting a young player in, FD knew he wasn't going to get the chance regardless. Look, Cooley and JC had a great timing, so back off their practice [U]a little[/U] and put FD in to force him to prepare. That's a coach's job, maybe not the HC, but again, if the coaches and players know that the younger guys aren't getting in even if a player takes all the practices off, then why are they going to try to get in. It was the atmosphere Zorn thrived in, where the senior class was gonna get everything, and the freshman had to wait, regardless of how they practiced.

and also just realized this is way :offtopic: sorry guys.[/quote]

I understand what you're saying C but Davis [B]was [/B]given chances. He also got a lot of practice, hence all the stories about how good he was. A healthy Cooley was not going to be benched for someone who, at the time, couldn't hold on to the ball. DT was given chances too but couldn't even run the correct route. Part of the reason DT said he's playing better is because he wanted his starting position back after it was given to Kelly. I've said before that players would step up more if given the responsibility, but if they don't, sometimes you need to sit them back down until they realize the jobs not theirs until they're willing to put the work in. I still think alot of it is just mental, and as Zorn has said, it would take a while to catch on. There's a lot of precision and detail in this offense and they just weren't getting it before. Now they are and it's starting to look pretty good. And to stay on topic, JC is getting it too and being benched probably helped him out.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=SmootSmack;640489]I think he will always be someone who is in Snyder's ear because they're good friends. But I don't know that he would be employed under Snyder[/quote]

Is that because he won't work for Snyder or because Snyder wouldn't hire him?

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=Paintrain;640486]I'm pretty sure he'd give you the answer you gave yourself. He's been an owner for the past 10 years, spending each and every day involved in football operations. He'd say he understands the NFL and how it works and he has a vision on how to build a winner. Like it or not, he's got a decade of experience with players, coaches, front office, the salary cap, league personnel, etc. He has 'credentials' on paper. Now the reality is that the results have been mediocre. 2 playoff appearances, 1 playoff win is not getting it done. He will admit he's made mistakes and strongly state his desire to win (which I believe) but will also remain committed to doing it his way.

At the end of the conversation you'd probably wish you hadn't had it because you'd be more frustrated than you were before![/quote]

I'm convinced you're right, and what you mention is probably why he's adopted the slogan of "if it ain't broke don't fix it." His philosophy has been steadfast even before he gained the experience he has over his period of ownership.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=celts32;640508]Is that because he won't work for Snyder or because Snyder wouldn't hire him?[/quote]

I don't think it's anything like that. I just think that Allen, for now at least, enjoys being in more of a "consultant" type role and keeping his options open.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=SmootSmack;640456]When the Browns talk to Holmgren it's "The Browns are taking decisive action now to make fundamental changes to the organization" When the Redskins talk to Shanahan it's "Dan Snyder has no patience, he's always meddling"[/quote]

It's a totally different situation. It looks like Lerner is trying to start from the very top and work his way down. Hire top football guy, let him hire the coach, scouts and so on. That's not the case here. Snyder is trying to get Shanahan DURING the season. Sorry but that's meddling.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=Texanskin;640429]Totally agree....what we SHOULD do (and we are missing out as i type) is bring back JC, keep Zorn and......hire Mike Holmgren as the GM!!!!! Since he ran the WC offense and knows Zorn very well...it would make a perfect match while keeping JC in the same system. Holmgren would be able to tell if Zorn is better or Sherm Lewis at calling plays (so you solve that issue). But.......we are sitting on our hands and the Browns are making moves....I really believe this would work....thoughts???[/quote]

I don't think bringing in MH is a good idea. One he wouldn't take any shit from Napolean. And two he's never run a front office before.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=skinsfan69;640529]I don't think bringing in MH is a good idea. One he wouldn't take any shit from Napolean. And two he's never run a front office before.[/quote]

He was GM/head coach when he first got to Seattle

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=Mattyk72;640552]He was GM/head coach when he first got to Seattle[/quote]

That's right. He treid to do both and it didn't work. My point was that the majority of his career he's been a coach. He's not true personel guy. I want a guy that's willing to go to the middle of no where and find Leon Lett or a Monte Colemen.

Re: Jurgensen thinks Campbell will be back
 

[quote=skinsfan69;640566]That's right. He treid to do both and it didn't work. My point was that the majority of his career he's been a coach. He's not true personel guy. I want a guy that's willing to go to the middle of no where and find Leon Lett or a Monte Colemen.[/quote]

I thought your point was he's never run a front office before.

He does have experience doing it and he's probably always had a significant say in personnel during his coaching years.