Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802219]I really don't care how many games we win next year cause this is not a playoff team. It's a REBUILDING JOB! What's the difference between 4-6 wins? Nothing. I'd rather just win 2 and better the draft position. I want a lot of young guys out there, not London Fletcher, Santana Moss, Casey Rabach and Jamal Brown.[/quote]

Well, here's a question for you, assuming the schedule is played as written:
are you rooting for the Skins to win week 1, to beat the Giants, OR are you rooting for the Giants, so that we keep our shot at getting Luck alive.

Anyone who could conceivably root for the Giants is not a smarter fan that i am. Sorry, that just ain't.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802219]I really don't care how many games we win next year cause this is not a playoff team. It's a REBUILDING JOB! What's the difference between 4-6 wins? Nothing. I'd rather just win 2 and better the draft position. I want a lot of young guys out there, not London Fletcher, Santana Moss, Casey Rabach and Jamal Brown.[/quote]

Orakpo might create a couple of wins. To realize your dream, we'll have to cut him.

TWilliams might create a couple of wins. To realize your dream, we'll have to cut him.

Cutting Rak and Trent sure sounds smart to me. :(

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;802222]Well, here's a question for you, assuming the schedule is played as written:
are you rooting for the Skins to win week 1, to beat the Giants, OR are you rooting for the Giants, so that we keep our shot at getting Luck alive.

Anyone who could conceivably root for the Giants is not a smarter fan that i am. Sorry, that just ain't.[/quote]

well as always i will root for washington. but i've grown real tired of this team not having a plan. right now it's starting to look like we have one. but that plan may take a few years and i'm ok with that as long as they stay committed to it. that may mean a few tough years. no more quick fix mgt. style.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802240]well as always i will root for washington. but i've grown real tired of this team not having a plan. right now it's starting to look like we have one. but that plan may take a few years and i'm ok with that as long as they stay committed to it. that may mean a few tough years. no more quick fix mgt. style.[/quote]

Right, and I think most of us agree, but skinster was saying he wants us to go 0fer, or maybe win 1, simply to get Andrew Luck. That is his plan. And truthfully that might have been Cerrato's plan with Zorn, and JZ screwed it up by winning 8 games his first year.

No fan of a team wants their team to draft number 1 the following year, before one game has been played in the season. It just can't be. Especially when you just brought in 12 potential solid rookies that we want to see add quality, not learn that losing is acceptable if "your guy" is high on the draft boards...

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802240]well as always i will root for washington. but i've grown real tired of this team not having a plan. right now it's starting to look like we have one. but that plan may take a few years and i'm ok with that as long as they stay committed to it. that may mean a few tough years. no more quick fix mgt. style.[/quote]

than what are we really discussing? I don't think anyone doubts that. I think what people doubt is what skinster is saying. Basically abandon all plans, and just suck for the sole purpose of drafting Andrew Luck. Our team has gotten much younger and is already in a rebuilding process, what needs to happen now is for them to understand that winning is the ultimate goal, that competing is the name of the game, and that no matter what you never stop working. What kind of message would it send if our goal was to suck so we can draft luck.

I really think some people are mixing up 'work now, be better later' with 'suck now, be better later'.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;802151]Let's just tank 5 seasons in a row and build up a hell of a roster with all the top picks we'll have! Watch out NFL in about 10 years![/quote]

Bruce Allen says he does not believe in rebuilding. When the question was put to him, this is what he had to say [quote]

"I don't know what rebuild is. I think there's an opportunity each week to do well in the NFL. Last year we had a chance to do better, we had a chance to do worse than our 6-10 record. And every opportunity that we're gonna be given this year, we've got to compete. I don't think it's fair to a veteran player to say that we're gonna worry about 2014 instead of 2011. London Fletcher deserves the opportunity to try and win every game we play, and that's what our organization is gonna focus on." [unquote]

The quote further dispells that notion of not wanting to win each and every game regardless of what may happen in the future.

[url=http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/5/10/2163535/to-rebuild-or-not-to-rebuild-the-dumbest-question-ever-asked-at]To Rebuild or Not to Rebuild: The Dumbest Question Ever Asked At Redskins Park - Hogs Haven[/url]

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=drew54;802182]Here are some statistics to add to this.

Drafted #1 Superbowl Winners

1970 (Steelers) -- Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech
[B]1983 (Colts) -- John Elway, Stanford *[/B]
1989 (Cowboys) -- Troy Aikman, UCLA
1993 (Patriots) -- Drew Bledsoe, Washington State **
[B]1999 (Colts) -- Peyton Manning, Tennessee[/B]
2004 (Chargers) -- Eli Manning, Mississippi *

*Drafted #1 and then traded.
** Lost starting job due to injury.[/quote]I understand what skinster is trying to say, I agree with the broad premise (play youth, gain experience and better draft position for a run later), but I could [B]never[/B] root for the Skins to lose or tank the season even it it was in their best interest long term. As others have said, too many variables that could derail the strategy, plus it's just wrong.

That all being said, Luck has the talent to be a multiple Pro Bowl level player who can carry a mediocre team to the playoffs and take a solid team to multiple SBs. That type of QB, that you can identify coming out of the NCAA, only comes along once every 11-13 years or so.

Luck - 2012
Manning - 1999
Elway - 1983
Bradshaw - 1970 (although I give more credit to the Steelers D and running game)
Len Dawson - 1957 (drafted 5th overall)
Otto Graham - 1948 (drafted 4th overall)
Sammy Baugh - 1937 (drafted 6th overall)

Are there other players drafted later who reached this level, absolutely. But Luck is a can't miss franchise QB as long as he doesn't go to a "turrible" and mismanaged team (Cincy/Oakland).

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

I agree with the youth movement. The best way to get (most) players and positions settled is to let them play. There has to be a certain amount of leadership and mentoring that happens with the vets. Film study, work ethic, smarts, etc should be instilled in the young guns, but give them significant playing time. Design more plays for the young guys, etc.

If given two scenarios:
Scenario A. 2011: 9-7 2012: 9-7
Scenario B. 2011: 5-11 2012: 13-3

Same number of games won over a two year period, but one looks significantly better than the other. Do what we need to do now to get a young base, then grow from there. We've tried this semi-rebuilding bullshit before and it has us where we are now. Lets bust it down, get rid of the mentality around Redskins park and start fresh.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;802262]

Luck - 2012[B]/2013? [/B]
Manning - 1999
Elway - 1983
Bradshaw - 1970 (although I give more credit to the Steelers D and running game)
Len Dawson - 1957 (drafted 5th overall)
Otto Graham - 1948 (drafted 4th overall)
Sammy Baugh - 1937 (drafted 6th overall)

[/quote]

Fixed

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

@ Slingin Sammy

You forgot to add Sam Bradford to that list, I think Sam is better than Luck and will be for their entire careers just watch. He took a horrible Rams team from 1-15 to 7-9 I mean can Luck do that? I doubt it.

As a Freshman at OU Sam had 36 Tds to 8 Int's, in his second year he helped set a College football record for most points scored for a team in a season. 50 Td passes to 8 Ints. He could have won back to back Heismans if he didn't get hurt in his JR season. He is as often compared to Peyton Manning which says a lot obviously. Luck had a damn good season last year but let's see what he does this season before we jump the gun

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Longtimefan;802260]Bruce Allen says he does not believe in rebuilding. When the question was put to him, this is what he had to say [quote]

"I don't know what rebuild is. I think there's an opportunity each week to do well in the NFL. Last year we had a chance to do better, we had a chance to do worse than our 6-10 record. And every opportunity that we're gonna be given this year, we've got to compete. I don't think it's fair to a veteran player to say that we're gonna worry about 2014 instead of 2011. London Fletcher deserves the opportunity to try and win every game we play, and that's what our organization is gonna focus on." [unquote]

The quote further dispells that notion of not wanting to win each and every game regardless of what may happen in the future.

[URL="http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/5/10/2163535/to-rebuild-or-not-to-rebuild-the-dumbest-question-ever-asked-at"]To Rebuild or Not to Rebuild: The Dumbest Question Ever Asked At Redskins Park - Hogs Haven[/URL][/quote]

this is a rebuild, even though allen doesn't want to say it, he's certainly thinking it.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Daseal;802263]I agree with the youth movement. The best way to get (most) players and positions settled is to let them play. There has to be a certain amount of leadership and mentoring that happens with the vets. Film study, work ethic, smarts, etc should be instilled in the young guns, but give them significant playing time. Design more plays for the young guys, etc.

If given two scenarios:
Scenario A. 2011: 9-7 2012: 9-7
Scenario B. 2011: 5-11 2012: 13-3

Same number of games won over a two year period, but one looks significantly better than the other. Do what we need to do now to get a young base, then grow from there. We've tried this semi-rebuilding bullshit before and it has us where we are now. Lets bust it down, get rid of the mentality around Redskins park and start fresh.[/quote]

I think most fans would take B.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802274][quote=Longtimefan;802260]Bruce Allen says he does not believe in rebuilding. When the question was put to him, this is what he had to say

this is a rebuild, even though allen doesn't want to say it, he's certainly thinking it.[/quote]

Rebuild is not a good sell so perhaps he prefers to use a different term. It would be difficult to judge what we're doing now as anything but that.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;802267]@ Slingin Sammy

You forgot to add Sam Bradford to that list, I think Sam is better than Luck and will be for their entire careers just watch. He took a horrible Rams team from 1-15 to 7-9 I mean can Luck do that? I doubt it.[/quote]I didn't forget Bradford. I don't see him as a multiple Pro Bowl QB that elavates his team. Do I see him growing into a solid starter, yes.

Bradford didn't "take" STL to 7-9. The improved defense and weak schedule did that. The Rams were 26th in scoring Off and 12th is scoring D. Bradford's QB rate was only 76.5. Who did the Rams beat; Skins, SEA, SD, CAR, DEN, AZ, SF. One playoff team, who went at 7-9.

I know you're a Bradford homer, and that's OK. I'm a ND fan who still supports Clausen. We'll come back to this thread in a 2-3 years. :food-smil

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

Bradford did a great job last year but I didn't see him as a guy that necessarily elevated the team or carried them either. They were pretty conservative with him and didn't ask him to do much, smartly so. Could he end up being a star gunslinger that can carry a team? Sure, but last year he was more of a game manager and I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I thought the Rams handled him very well.