Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url=http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/isis-spokesperson-reportedly-killed-syrian-army]ISIS Spokesperson Reportedly Killed By Syrian Army[/url]


Looks like one asshole isn't going to be making his trip to DC to hang the Islamic State flag at the White House.


Toodles bitch. I'm glad your dead.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/08/20/u-s-military-announces-14-airstrikes-in-iraq-following-james-foley-execution/]U.S. military announces 14 airstrikes in Iraq following James Foley execution - The Washington Post[/url]


I guess the US is going to put these assholes in check.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078238]For the record, anti-palestinian genocide has been going on since old testament times, and Israel continues it today with US help......[/quote]I hate the moral equalization of Christians/Jews to Muslims as it relates to the violence of the 20th & 21st centuries....based on Bible quotes from the Old Testament. That was THOUSANDS of years ago and the Israelites were struggling for survival in a very violent world....in which BTW they were subjugated for a significant amount of time by Egypt, Babylon, Rome, etc.

Please cite examples of Christian or Jewish organizations (not an individual whacko) that have carried out murder/execution/rape/beheadings/etc. on a systematic basis against Muslims within the last 50 years.

[quote]There is no correct side in that land[/quote]Yes there is, the side that is simply fighting for their existence, not the side that kidnaps and murders schoolboys and indiscriminately launches rockets into civilian cities. Israel uses very targeted airstrikes to avoid civilian casualties, they call cell phones and alert people to leave, they then fire a dummy "soft" bomb that lets the people in the target know a strike is imminent, and then they finally strike. It is Hamas (aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood) who puts weapons/facilities amongst Palestinian civilians. THERE IS IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

What if you and your family had to hit the bomb shelter multiple times per day....despite doing nothing but trying to LIVE and knowing your country had given in to almost every demand from the folks lobbing rockets at you? Would the folks showering rockets down on you and your family have moral equivalence to you?

[quote]yet the US is up in arms because one video of a man was beheaded?[/quote]Some of us were up in arms long before this happened because we're aware of the threat violent fundamentalist Muslims pose to all of us in the U.S. Christian, Jew, Agnostic, White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, everyone. How do you think these animals treat women? A quick Google search on FGM is a start.

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[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078308]I hate the moral equalization of Christians/Jews to Muslims as it relates to the violence of the 20th & 21st centuries....based on Bible quotes from the Old Testament. That was THOUSANDS of years ago and the Israelites were struggling for survival in a very violent world....in which BTW they were subjugated for a significant amount of time by Egypt, Babylon, Rome, etc.

Please cite examples of Christian or Jewish organizations (not an individual whacko) that have carried out murder/execution/rape/beheadings/etc. on a systematic basis against Muslims within the last 50 years.

Yes there is, the side that is simply fighting for their existence, not the side that kidnaps and murders schoolboys and indiscriminately launches rockets into civilian cities. Israel uses very targeted airstrikes to avoid civilian casualties, they call cell phones and alert people to leave, they then fire a dummy "soft" bomb that lets the people in the target know a strike is imminent, and then they finally strike. It is Hamas (aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood) who puts weapons/facilities amongst Palestinian civilians. THERE IS IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

What if you and your family had to hit the bomb shelter multiple times per day....despite doing nothing but trying to LIVE and knowing your country had given in to almost every demand from the folks lobbing rockets at you? Would the folks showering rockets down on you and your family have moral equivalence to you?

Some of us were up in arms long before this happened because we're aware of the threat violent fundamentalist Muslims pose to all of us in the U.S. Christian, Jew, Agnostic, White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, everyone. How do you think these animals treat women? A quick Google search on FGM is a start.[/quote]

hundreds of Palestinians have been killed by indiscriminate airstrikes of the IDF. Thousands more wounded. Many innocent children and women killed while in refuge. How many Israeli's have lost there lives in the ongoing rocket attacks? How many innocents? I'll let you look it up and see if you are willing to post the comparison numbers, and still say there is no moral equivalence. I will go further, what Israel has done to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip is as bad as what the Nazi's did to the Jews. Mass exterminations are mass exterminations. Just because a bomb falls from a fighter jet doesn't make the death the child suffers any less brutal than the beheading of the reporter.

I said it earlier, the Gaza strip can be compared to the land bordered by DC, Baltimore, Route 29 to the north, Route 295 to the south. (139 sq. miles for the record) Baltimore has a population of 600K approx. same with DC, the Gaza Strip has a population of 1.8 Million. Imagine dropping bombs from the air everyday over that stretch of land, with the population of DC, Baltimore, and a clone of Baltimore. Further, imagine setting up blockades, and closing all borders and making those 1.8 million people live only off of the land between DC and Baltimore, or else allowing things only at your whim. Imagine if the inhabitants of Philadelphia set up air defenses, had huge military outposts to prevent you from leaving that small area that is your home. Imagine that the leaders of Philly could strike you with impunity because they had NY keeping the rest of the world away. You might feel the need to launch rockets, even if futile. You might dig tunnels or do whatever you can to get rid of those Philly SOB's.

Just because it's not one man taking another man's life makes it no less brutal. Just because you don't see the bombs tearing at a child's chest or a father or mother's arms makes it no less real to those who are living under the fear.

I hate how people defend Israel and disregard their fundamental beliefs (and the actions of slaughter of the palestinians that flows from it) while yet call the islamists who are slaughtering far fewer people by tally for the same basic beliefs held by Israeli's.

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My problem is the way Israel behaves when they're not fighting.

People seem to ignore (or at least I don't hear them ever mention it) what it is that makes Hamas behave the way it does. Israel has pushed them into a corner and has complete control over what enters and exist their land and has done a lot to create this situation.

Which is not to excuse what Hamas does, it just seems like the two sides spend an awful lot of time condemning each other and completely ignoring their own role in things. The problems do not solely exist when they're shooting each other or launching rockets - the problems exist every day of every year for quite a long time.

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[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078308]...

Yes there is, the side that is simply fighting for their existence, not the side that kidnaps and murders schoolboys and indiscriminately launches rockets into civilian cities. Israel uses very targeted airstrikes to avoid civilian casualties, they call cell phones and alert people to leave, they then fire a dummy "soft" bomb that lets the people in the target know a strike is imminent, and then they finally strike. ...[/quote]

Hey Baltimore, we are launching concentrated airstrikes that are going to lay waste to the triangulated area of Howard/MLK Blvd and Green Street. You have 15 minutes to evacuate Md Gen Hospital, the shops, the schools, and all the housing. If you can't, then it's your fault that there are so many of you in that area (even though we have blockaded the exits). Don't worry, the first bomb is fake so just ignore it when it hits.

Keep in mind that Gaza has 3 times the population of Baltimore. Where are these people that have so been notified supposed to go. How about give them an iron dome system, and that way when the incoming missiles approach they know they are safe? Again, how many Israelis were killed by Hamas infiltrators or rockets? How many Palestinian non-combatants were killed by IDF airstrikes? How many new children have developed a life long hatred to kill the Israelis who were responsible for the deaths of their sisters or mothers? How many suicide bombers has Israeli attacks spoon fed new reasons to hate and distrust them?

You won't answer those numbers even though the deaths and wounded comparison is as simple as saying Ok Google How many deaths in Gaza from Israeli air strikes, and comparing that too Ok Google How many deaths in Israeli

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[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078209]The adults that VOLUNTEERED for military service. The military isn't a social program, it's a fighting force.

So your stance is to stand back and watch tens of thousands get slaughtered/beheaded/crucified when we have the capability to stop it? If that's your stance it's disgusting.

How would you feel if IS was running rampant through NoVA and the only people that could stop them decided it "wasn't worth it" to end mass genocide.[/quote]

then why aren't you in africa right now? or syria? or the ukraine? or dealing with the hidden protests in saudi arabia?

if we want to stop all the bad situations and genocides in the world, we need to adds millions of soldiers and trillions to the budget. there's already enough people talking a big game, what's your magic plan for achieving it? reinstating the draft? 80% tax rates? where's your outrage about the world's failure to contain ebola or aids or the genocide in sudan? we could stop that too, but i guess when it's happening in africa it doesn't count. you're lack of outrage makes me sick.

and the next time ISIS is rampaging down K street, please be sure to let me know.

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SS, it's really funny that you're defending a state founded on a terrorist bombing campaign and don't understand why the people that were made homeless/landless when the brits pulled out (after the americans decided to give away their land without bothering to talk to them) might be a little peeved...

not that hamas/plo/etc etc are in any way blameless, but they aren't exactly well treated 1st first world citizens in the tiny plot of land they've been relegated to.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078310]hundreds of Palestinians have been killed by indiscriminate airstrikes of the IDF. Thousands more wounded. Many innocent children and women killed while in refuge. How many Israeli's have lost there lives in the ongoing rocket attacks? How many innocents? I'll let you look it up and see if you are willing to post the comparison numbers, and still say there is no moral equivalence. I will go further, what Israel has done to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip is as bad as what the Nazi's did to the Jews. Mass exterminations are mass exterminations. Just because a bomb falls from a fighter jet doesn't make the death the child suffers any less brutal than the beheading of the reporter. [/quote]As I already stated, the Israeli airstrikes are not "indiscriminate", they are as precise as our own. The Palestinian people's deaths are attributable to Hamas and the other Muslim terrorist organizations that know they cannot defeat Israel in a war, so they put innocent Palestinians in danger.... strategically and purposefully.

You are so far off-base claiming "what Israel has done to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip is as bad as what the Nazi's did to the Jews." This is incredibly disrespectful to the memories of those butchered in the Holocaust and those that lost their lives fighting for their freedom. A quick search through wiki shows a hell of a lot of terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians and an Israeli response. There are thousands killed on both sides of the conflict, but I sure a hell didn't find anywhere that Israelis were sending millions of Palestinians to concentration camps and ovens.

[quote]I said it earlier, the Gaza strip can be compared to the land bordered by DC, Baltimore, Route 29 to the north, Route 295 to the south. (139 sq. miles for the record) Baltimore has a population of 600K approx. same with DC, the Gaza Strip has a population of 1.8 Million. Imagine dropping bombs from the air everyday over that stretch of land, with the population of DC, Baltimore, and a clone of Baltimore. Further, imagine setting up blockades, and closing all borders and making those 1.8 million people live only off of the land between DC and Baltimore, or else allowing things only at your whim. Imagine if the inhabitants of Philadelphia set up air defenses, had huge military outposts to prevent you from leaving that small area that is your home. Imagine that the leaders of Philly could strike you with impunity because they had NY keeping the rest of the world away. You might feel the need to launch rockets, even if futile. You might dig tunnels or do whatever you can to get rid of those Philly SOB's.

Just because it's not one man taking another man's life makes it no less brutal. Just because you don't see the bombs tearing at a child's chest or a father or mother's arms makes it no less real to those who are living under the fear.[/quote]Hold on, the Israelis don't stop Palestinians from leaving Gaza, there is a border with Egypt that isn't controlled by Israel. The Israelis are protecting themselves from groups within Gaza (again Hamas, etc.) that want to "wipe them off the face of the earth" and liken them to "apes and pigs".

In 2005 Israel pulled out of Gaza and allowed them self rule. They also have provided means to build a successful society, but Hamas and other outsiders, hell bent on Israel's destruction, buy rockets, build tunnels with tons & tons of concrete, and the leaders skim millions for themselves. Israel and the U.S. have pumped billions of dollars into supporting the Palestinian people in Gaza.

[quote]I hate how people defend Israel and disregard their fundamental beliefs (and the actions of slaughter of the palestinians that flows from it) while yet call the islamists who are slaughtering far fewer people by tally for the same basic beliefs held by Israeli's.[/quote]I strongly suggest you read up on the history of this conflict.
[URL="http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/08/20/anti-semitic-history-is-greatest-obstacle-to-peace-for-israel-palestinians"]Anti-Semitic History Is Greatest Obstacle to Peace for Israel, Palestinians - US News[/URL]

The Palestinians have been offered everything they've wanted and more....all they have to do is accept Israel's right to EXIST....and they won't.

Since 1947 approximately 46K Muslim-Arab deaths are attributed to the conflict with Israel. 11,000 of these were during Israel's War of Independence. Since 1950, just in the Middle East, Muslims have killed over 1.65M other Muslims.

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And yet you still have not said how many deaths and wounded each on the two sides in the past 2 months of this onslaught. You spout us/Israeli lines like they are manna from heaven but the reality on the ground is that thousands of Palestinians have been wounded maimed and killed in these past weeks. If you think that they should just up and leave their homes and go to Egypt that is the height naivety. If your home was attacked would you just up and leave or would you support those who are fighting to protect it.
Why should they accept Israels right to exist? I ask in all seriousness. Did it exist before the UN decreed it? Was there a referendum of the local councils where all parties had an even stake and state and national borders were agreed to in advance? Or has the Palestinian land slowly been shrunk as Israeli control grew?

Would Israel exist as a natural state if the us withdrew its support and allowed boundaries to be re-established based on pre 1947 history?

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part of the problem is that the previous US interventions have caused some of the current problems too.

the US and brits knocked over a democracy in iran in the 50s and installed a dictator that was willing to abuse human rights and suppress opposition and stay in power (and we supported him, where's the outrage over that, or US "pay for toture" black sites?). he got overthrown, guy we didn't like came to power (though if we stayed out in the 50s, this probably wouldn't be the case).

fast forward, being afraid of iran's growing power, we decided to give saddam billions in weapons and military command and control systems to help keep them in check. also supporting another dictator that wasn't afraid to commit genocide on his own people.

fast forward again, we spent a LOT more money removing those weapons and systems to put a sectarian leader in place that spent a lot of time removing sunni voices from power... and now you've got an ISIS army formed in syria's war that's gained a lot of traction due to Nouri al-Maliki's actions.

it's kind of like 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. and every time americans hit the ground, jihadii's from far and wide start flooding in to get their shots off. we're like a magnet for chaos. and we're doing it with your kids money too, cause none of this has been paid for yet.

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[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078324]As I already stated, the Israeli airstrikes are not "indiscriminate", they are as precise as our own.[/quote]

Is that why Israel used cluster bombs for the longest while?


[IMG]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/ot53beec06.jpg[/IMG]


Precise my ass.

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you know smart bombs are only smart 40-60% of the time right?

despite the popular misconception, "smart" weapons miss all the time. like when we had 300+ taliban prisoners in afghanistan that broke lose and were hiding in a single building inside a palace (old fortress) compound. 6 airstrikes later, their single building was fine, but we managed to blow up a kurdish tank and a bunch of kurds in the attempt.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qala-i-Jangi]Battle of Qala-i-Jangi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]


there are literally a million other examples. in armed conflicts, the wrong people get dead quite regularly. bad intel, miscommunication, ordinance landing off target. s#$% happens.


also if you had done any research, you'd know that egypt closed their border with palestine for over a year, and before that it was only open for 4 hours a day and only letting in 500-1000 a day max. so that's not a valid option.

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kinda shocked how people are anti israel in this latest escalation. Hamas senior official just yesterday confirmed that someone in their orgainization kidnapped these 3 boys and killed them. thats what started this whole thing. Its Hamas's contining inability to hold their own accountable and bring them to justice when they break obvious laws that perpetuates this stuff. Yeah but go ahead and blame the israel

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3 dead equals justification for wholesale destruction, since SS33 doesn't want to seem to put up the numbers here are the latest reports (I doubt they are exact, but the enormity of the scale is clearly represented).
Gaza residents dead 2050+, 550+ of whom are children, approx 350 women and seniors.(Come on, Grampa you should have moved your wheelchair faster). So if as SS33 proclaims, these are super accurate missiles, only hitting the targets of Israeli vengeance, then Israel has purposefully killed nearly 900 non combatants in response to 3 dead teens. I think the world should be outraged.

As for Israeli deaths in that same time, including the 3 above, less than 64 soldiers and 6 civilians. No reported attacks have come through the "terror tunnels".

images are graphic, and not suitable for work, or really for any civilized nation to abide by:
[URL="https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza+death+toll&safe=off&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=7k73U4TFN4TdoASw9oDABg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1067&bih=511"]https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza+death+toll&safe=off&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=7k73U4TFN4TdoASw9oDABg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1067&bih=511[/URL]

Not to mention reportedly 2Billion dollars worth of infrastructure damage, that will take 3-5 years or more to rebuild, just so Israel can destroy it again, as it has done twice this century already.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078356]3 dead equals justification for wholesale destruction, since SS33 doesn't want to seem to put up the numbers here are the latest reports (I doubt they are exact, but the enormity of the scale is clearly represented).
Gaza residents dead 2050+, 550+ of whom are children, approx 350 women and seniors.(Come on, Grampa you should have moved your wheelchair faster). So if as SS33 proclaims, these are super accurate missiles, only hitting the targets of Israeli vengeance, then Israel has purposefully killed nearly 900 non combatants in response to 3 dead teens. I think the world should be outraged.

As for Israeli deaths in that same time, including the 3 above, less than 64 soldiers and 6 civilians. No reported attacks have come through the "terror tunnels".

images are graphic, and not suitable for work, or really for any civilized nation to abide by:
[URL="https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza+death+toll&safe=off&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=7k73U4TFN4TdoASw9oDABg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1067&bih=511"]https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza+death+toll&safe=off&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=7k73U4TFN4TdoASw9oDABg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1067&bih=511[/URL]

Not to mention reportedly 2Billion dollars worth of infrastructure damage, that will take 3-5 years or more to rebuild, just so Israel can destroy it again, as it has done twice this century already.[/quote]

What about the illegal tunnels dug into israel to transport terriost, weapons, etc? Not to mention the rocket attacks which routinely break ceasefire.

Its the principal of accountability. You know what Hamas should have done was arrest the kidnap (cough, killers) hand them over for a proper trial. All this could have been avoided.

Hamas could have said no we are not in the business of killing children for political gain.

Sorry, there is no excuse.

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As I said, no terror tunnels were used for attacks. As for the rockets fired routinely, it's like a 50 lb weakling pounding on the bully's chest and saying that it's his fault that the bully smashed his face in. Hamas and the Palestinians could fire rockets forever and not cause 1/100th of the damage of the IDF.

Saying it's accountability, without holding Israel accountable for the death, destruction, and wholesale savagery of their inordinately extreme bombardments is, to me, mixed up.

To be clear, I am not saying the Palestinians are without fault, but to somehow say 70 dead Israelis, all but 3 of whom are soldiers is justification for the killing of over 2000 and wounding over 8000 Palestinians is horrific logic.

In terms of the ceasefire, if the rockets that Hamas fires were causing equivalent death and destruction to Israeli's then yes I would get that Israel had to respond to it, but they don't, and 60 rockets shot down and no-one hurt ought not give Israel license to go kill another 1-200 Palestinians. At somepoint, you have to tell Israel, put the attack guns down, we will supply your Iron dome, and help with defensive responses in any way possible, but there will be no peace if you continue the mass killings of Palestinian's. Those should be unacceptable. And if Israel can't accept that killing 900 innocent women,children, and seniors is an unacceptable response, than we ought to use our influence and ask them flat out, if we drop our support, how long will you survive.

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Back to the bully example.
A tiny kid gets angry, and throws pencils at a top athlete in school.

The athlete can:
A) break the pencils, walk over and pound the kid into the ground, and leave him disfigured for life.
B) break the pencil, get a drink and get help from others to get the kid to stop throwing pencils

Yeah the kid shouldn't be throwing pencils, and yeah maybe one gets the athlete good in the ear, or worst case eye. But at no point does throwing ineffective pencils justify the athlete using his superior strength to mercilessly abuse the weaker kid.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078365]Back to the bully example.
A tiny kid gets angry, and throws pencils at a top athlete in school.

The athlete can:
A) break the pencils, walk over and pound the kid into the ground, and leave him disfigured for life.
B) break the pencil, get a drink and get help from others to get the kid to stop throwing pencils

Yeah the kid shouldn't be throwing pencils, and yeah maybe one gets the athlete good in the ear, or worst case eye. But at no point does throwing ineffective pencils justify the athlete using his superior strength to mercilessly abuse the weaker kid.[/quote]

we are just going to disagree, you can side with the terriost. Politically, both are wrong.

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[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/21/world/meast/iraq-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Pentagon chief: ISIS 'beyond anything we have seen' - CNN.com[/url]

this is why ive grown to hate this administration. Hagel is trying to sell me on something Ive known about for about a year. And now instead of doing something about Isis initially, we've let them now come into Iraq and embed themselves in the region, gain iraqi support, more international support and prepare themselves for a fight. Hagel and Obama negligence will cost more civilian causalities and american soliders lives.

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[quote=Chico23231;1078371][url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/21/world/meast/iraq-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Pentagon chief: ISIS 'beyond anything we have seen' - CNN.com[/url]

this is why ive grown to hate this administration. Hagel is trying to sell me on something Ive known about for about a year. And now instead of doing something about Isis initially, we've let them now come into Iraq and embed themselves in the region, gain iraqi support, more international support and prepare themselves for a fight. Hagel and Obama negligence will cost more civilian causalities and american soliders lives.[/quote]

We can agree on this. I also hated that they came out and said the special forces failed on the rescue attempt. I can't see any reason, other than covering political a** that you would put that in the world press.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078372]We can agree on this. I also hated that they came out and said the special forces failed on the rescue attempt. I can't see any reason, other than covering political a** that you would put that in the world press.[/quote]

Seriously. Hagel trys to cover his ass with the headline grabbing "nothing we've ever seen".

So Mr. Hagel, why havent you seen this coming and effectively prepared for it? Another failure

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Chico23231;1078371][url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/21/world/meast/iraq-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Pentagon chief: ISIS 'beyond anything we have seen' - CNN.com[/url]

this is why ive grown to hate this administration. Hagel is trying to sell me on something Ive known about for about a year. And now instead of doing something about Isis initially, we've let them now come into Iraq and embed themselves in the region, gain iraqi support, more international support and prepare themselves for a fight. Hagel and Obama negligence will cost more civilian causalities and american soliders lives.[/quote]

Yup.

Key leaders on the left (Hagel, Obama, Kerry, Clinton, Feinstein) are all saying how caught-off-guard they were about this, meanwhile anyone who has been paying attention has seen republicans lambaste the policies for withdrawal for YEARS for exactly this reason. They didn't say which organization would do it, but many of them, along with higher-ups in the military, said this is exactly what would happen with a time-tabled withdrawal.

We keep half-assing the whole thing. We need to decide if we want to continue to intervene in the ongoings of the middle east or not, and behave accordingly. This path we've been on for at least the last 50 years of funding/equiping one side to fight someone to only have power structures develop that are anti-US, or worse have the people we directly gave the money/weapons to turn around and uset hem against us, is not working.

It's. not. working.

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i wouldn't be lambasting libs while exonerating republicans over this. 10 years of unfunded war isn't sustainable either, and sanctioning torture isn't exactly a high water mark. plenty of blame to go around based on short term thinking and short sighted goals.

also, the spec ops team didn't fail, the intelligence did. the biggest failure we've had over there is the inability to create a good human intelligence network to provide accurate information.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1078379]i wouldn't be lambasting libs while exonerating republicans over this. 10 years of unfunded war isn't sustainable either, and sanctioning torture isn't exactly a high water mark. plenty of blame to go around based on short term thinking and short sighted goals.

also, the spec ops team didn't fail, the intelligence did. the biggest failure we've had over there is the inability to create a good human intelligence network to provide accurate information.[/quote]

I'm not giving the republicans across the board credit here.

I'm just saying there's a whole lot of people in very important/high positions telling us they didn't see this coming when anyone who's been paying attention has watched certain people scream for years that this would happen. We also have a lot of normal people on a certain side of the aisle pretending this was unforeseeable.

Those same people pretending to be so surprised were the ones years ago lambasting the republicans for their concerns. So I find it ridiculous they now shrug and pretend this was not foreseeable.

Look, I wrote off those republican concerns at the time. I now fully admit they were right and I was naive/ignorant. But you wont catch me pretending people were not warning about this. They were. They were loud about it and they were chastised for it. Today it's clear they were correct all along.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1078322]then why aren't you in africa right now? or syria? or the ukraine? or dealing with the hidden protests in saudi arabia?

if we want to stop all the bad situations and genocides in the world, we need to adds millions of soldiers and trillions to the budget. there's already enough people talking a big game, what's your magic plan for achieving it? reinstating the draft? 80% tax rates? where's your outrage about the world's failure to contain ebola or aids or the genocide in sudan? we could stop that too, but i guess when it's happening in africa it doesn't count. you're lack of outrage makes me sick.[/quote]You have no idea what my views are on any of these subjects, so don't state my positions for me.

For those isolationists who like to use extreme hyperbole, this is directly from my post:
"however what needs to be done is for the POTUS to go to Congress and obtain a [I][B]declaration of war on any groups which openly have declared war/jihad on the U.S. or are involved in genocide. Once obtained, use Spec Ops and drone strikes to wipe these animals out whenever they raise their f-ing murderous heads.
[/B][/I]
If different factions of Islam want to fight amongst themselves, fine. But when groups like IS are flat our murdering/beheading innocents time to step in with extreme deadly force to deter the pieces of $hit from doing this stuff. [B][I]No massive 100K of troops sitting in the sand as targets, change the rules of engagement and let the military serve its purpose....to kill bad guys and destroy stuff."
[/I][/B]
To do what I stated would not require an increase in current DoD funding, we have the weapons systems and manpower, our C in C needs to take off the kids gloves and fight the war we're in (whether liberals/isolationists want to admit it). And I obviously need to clearly state; the war is with violent fundamental Islamist groups who are hell bent on the destruction of the U.S/western civilization and the establishment of an Islamic caliphate.

All that being said, for the record:
[B]Ukraine[/B] - Obama created this mess with his pulling back of the missle shield in Poland, open mike slip with the Russian President, "after I'm re-elected I'll have a lot more flexibility", and general foreign policy ineptitude/weakness. Putin sees this weakness as an opening to regain parts of lost USSR territory with no one to stop him.
With a strong POTUS this never would've happened. When Putin amassed troops on the border, prior to taking Crimea we should've let him know to either pull back or lose every piece of military hardware and troop near the Ukraine border. He would've never moved forward on Crimea.

[B]Protests by moderates in Iran[/B] - Everything short of direct military action should be done to help these folks. The Saudis are a more delicate situation, I don't know enough detail about these protests to state a strategy, but non-military/diplomatic/economic pressure should be applied to the Saudis to become better on Human Rights and crack down on jihadis within their borders.

[B]Syria[/B] - Assad is a murderous PoS, but do we step in a replace him with more murderous PoS people? I'd prefer to let them fight that out amongst themselves and if a new regime comes in that aligns with Muslim Brotherhood/violent Muslim types then we need to deal with that.

[B]Darfur/Sudan[/B] - Would've definitely stepped in to stop the genocide by the Arab Muslim based government against non-Arabs (many Christians)....hmmm do we see a common theme of violent Muslim actions???? I wonder if it was a Christian or Jewish gov't attacking a Muslim subculture what the world reaction would've been?

[quote]and the next time ISIS is rampaging down K street, please be sure to let me know.[/quote]They don't need to "rampage down K St." to do serious damage here. Just sayin...
[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/22/islamic-state-sympathizers-under-intense-scrutiny-in-us/"]Islamic State sympathizers under intense scrutiny in US | Fox News[/URL]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1078379]sanctioning torture isn't exactly a high water mark.[/quote]waterboarding isn't torture, our Spec Ops go through it in their training....and that waterboarding of three high level terrorists directly attributed to stopping planned terrorist attacks and saved American lives.

[quote]also, the spec ops team didn't fail, the intelligence did. the biggest failure we've had over there is the inability to create a good human intelligence network to provide accurate information.[/quote]We had good intel networks in the ME until.....Clinton weakened the military and tore them down, then if you remember it was Bush's CIA Director (Clinton appointee) who assured him and Congress there were WMDs in Iraq, now Obama has done nothing but defund and weaken the military and Intel agencies further. This POTUS can't even get a decorated Marine with PTSD out of a Mexican jail...but there's "plenty of blame" for the Republicans? It wasn't Republicans who elected Obama twice.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078381]...
They don't need to "rampage down K St." to do serious damage here. Just sayin...
[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/22/islamic-state-sympathizers-under-intense-scrutiny-in-us/"]Islamic State sympathizers under intense scrutiny in US | Fox News[/URL][/quote]

as long as they call our cellphones first to tell us they are gonna bomb us it's ok though right?

no reply needed, purely snark for snark's sake

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078327]Why should they accept Israels right to exist? I ask in all seriousness. Did it exist before the UN decreed it? [/quote]Yes it did.

[quote]Was there a referendum of the local councils where all parties had an even stake and state and national borders were agreed to in advance?[/quote]No, Israel was mandated by the UN in 1947.

[quote] Or has the Palestinian land slowly been shrunk as Israeli control grew?

Would Israel exist as a natural state if the us withdrew its support and allowed boundaries to be re-established based on pre 1947 history?[/quote]Invalid question, but based on its military strength probably yes.
In 1995 Israel and the PLO reached the Oslo II agreements and resolved a majority of past issues of conflict. Enter Hamas in 1996 and things begin to devolve.

My issue (and Israel's and many of the Palestinian people's) is with Hamas, an Islamist terrorist group. The blood of innocent civilians in Gaza is on Hamas' hands, not Israel's

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078384]as long as they call our cellphones first to tell us they are gonna bomb us it's ok though right?

no reply needed, purely snark for snark's sake[/quote]
:food-smil good one

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078365]Yeah the kid shouldn't be throwing pencils, and yeah maybe one gets the athlete good in the ear, or worst case eye. But at no point does throwing ineffective pencils justify the athlete using his superior strength to mercilessly abuse the weaker kid.[/quote]Problem is the weaker kid has sworn to kill the big kid and based on past history has shown the ability/will to kill when able. And if another kid (Iran/NK/Pakistan) on the playground give the little kid a grenade (suitcase nuke) and he sneaks it into the big kids backpack (via sleeper cell, tunnel, etc.) the big kid is hurt real bad or dead.

My original point in all this is for the U.S. to take seriously, target, and eliminate terrorist groups who have directly declared war (jihad) on us. If we keep looking the other way and not taking the fight to them, we will have another 9/11, or worse.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078387]Problem is the weaker kid has sworn to kill the big kid and based on past history has shown the ability/will to kill when able. And if another kid (Iran/NK/Pakistan) on the playground give the little kid a grenade (suitcase nuke) and he sneaks it into the big kids backpack (via sleeper cell, tunnel, etc.) the big kid is hurt real bad or dead.

My original point in all this is for the U.S. to take seriously, target, and eliminate terrorist groups who have directly declared war (jihad) on us. If we keep looking the other way and not taking the fight to them, we will have another 9/11, or worse.[/quote]

I get taking them seriously; I get the embargo, basically; I get destroying the tunnels (though I think it was an excuse more than necessity); I get a lot of it.

I don't get carte blanche approval of killing 2000+ people nearly half of whom are on the extremely innocent side (women although they aren't nearly as innocent as they claim!;) , babies, kids, and seniors). I don't get using the fallacy of the cellphone/soft bomb warnings, in an area where you can't reasonably seek shelter from the hundreds/thousands of airstrikes that have been carried out.

If you think beating the little kid to a pulp is gonna make him want to make peace with you, I think you are wrong, I think it's going to make other little kids want to gang up on you so that they can take you it.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078389]I get taking them seriously; I get the embargo, basically; I get destroying the tunnels (though I think it was an excuse more than necessity); I get a lot of it.

I don't get carte blanche approval of killing 2000+ people nearly half of whom are on the extremely innocent side (women although they aren't nearly as innocent as they claim!;) , babies, kids, and seniors). I don't get using the fallacy of the cellphone/soft bomb warnings, in an area where you can't reasonably seek shelter from the hundreds/thousands of airstrikes that have been carried out.

If you think beating the little kid to a pulp is gonna make him want to make peace with you, I think you are wrong, I think it's going to make other little kids want to gang up on you so that they can take you it.[/quote]I don't agree with the amount of civilian casualties either, I just don't know how Israel can get to Hamas targets without them. They can't go full-scale invasion into Gaza, civilian deaths would increase ten-fold along with Israeli deaths.

I don't want to beat the little kid (Palestinian people, because for the most part they want some concessions not Israel's elimination), but we've got to get after the other kids (Iran, Hamas, Mus BroHood, Turkey, etc.) that are giving the little kid the pencils (or grenades) and force them to stop, either diplomatically or by maybe some "accidents" to their military infrastructure.

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ukraine is obama's fault? if it were up to you, we'd be involved in yet another unfunded war, this time vs russians in crimea. that sounds... awesome.

and no, we already send spec ops teams and drones anywhere and everywhere doing "things". obama has increased the use and size of specs ops and drone programs a billion times over. if you don't know where your targets are, it doesn't get you the results you want, and it doesn't work against large movements or prevent invasions. it also makes plenty of people mad that your operating inside their borders without consent, and makes them feel like returning the favor.

and i wasn't talking about waterboarding, i'm talking about CIA black sites doing things with our permission for our money on our behalf.

and our lack of ME intel is clinton's fault? come on now. it must be nice to have such a simple world view where republicans are always right and military actions don't cost money or create blowback of any kind.

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[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078381]
"however what needs to be done is for the POTUS to go to Congress and obtain a declaration of war on any groups which openly have declared war/jihad on the U.S. or are involved in genocide.
[/quote]
you can;t declare war against non state actors, and dumping troops into countries without their consent is a very stupid idea.

[quote]Once obtained, use Spec Ops and drone strikes to wipe these animals out whenever they raise their f-ing murderous heads.[/quote]

already being done, you and obama seem to agree on tactics, but again, that wouldn't work in crimea, in syria, in saudi arabia or many many other places where the local government objects to troops/flyovers, where we don't have the intelligence to find and hit targets, and it doesn't stop invasions, large scale movements, etc. and it's also not cheap or fast (the strikes are, getting the intel to make sure you have a good target and locate them are not). also, spec op teams can't hold/occupy/garisson towns/cities/etc. which means no real security and insurgents just moving back in once they leave.

[quote]
To do what I stated would not require an increase in current DoD funding.
[/quote]
if you wanted to actually get involved in sudan/crimea/etc like you say, f yeah it would. we can't afford to deploy the military we have now, and we haven't even really started paying back china the money we used to go into afghanistan and iraq. so, the current level of activity you're not happy with that's already doing the things you suggested (which wouldn't work in most of the places actually you want them) is already unsustainable, and to think that going to war everywhere and all the time would magically not be is silly.

clinton's shrinking of the military to cut out the US's ability to provide it's own logistics means that deploying is REALLY expensive, since contracted bus drivers and termite exterminators in war zones make 100k+ compared to privates that get 40k or less total comp per year.

[quote]
I don't know enough detail about these protests to state a strategy, but non-military/diplomatic/economic pressure should be applied to the Saudis to become better on Human Rights and crack down on jihadis within their borders.
[/quote]

they've been trying, but kuwait and SA are two of the biggest outside funders, and if americans show up, donations go up. it's like the perfect self propagating endless war. politics aren't so cut and dry, and i'm not going to dump 500 pages to try explaining why things are the way they are, but the saudi's and others have a lot of competing interests that aren't "do whatever the americans tell us to do."

[quote]
[B]Darfur/Sudan[/B]hmmm do we see a common theme of violent Muslim actions???? I wonder if it was a Christian or Jewish gov't attacking a Muslim subculture what the world reaction would've been?
[/quote]

like israel vs palestine? world reaction is pretty damning vs israel. US going into iraq wasn't well liked either. but no one seems to care about africans.

and again, your logic for endless war isn't much different than the jihadii's. in a way it's treating the symptoms.

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[url=http://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east]40 Maps That Explain The Middle East[/url]

Good and informative history on the Middle East. (via maps)

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1078408][url=http://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east]40 Maps That Explain The Middle East[/url]

Good and informative history on the Middle East. (via maps)[/quote]

Excellent presentation. Thanks for linking that. It's a great starting point for any discussion of the region.

Couple of things that it emphasized to me:
1) the ethnic tensions aren't solely due to western influence, within the middle east there are equivalent nationality tensions that led to the European conflicts throughout 1600-1950 culminating in the 2nd world war.

2) Western and Russian arbitrarily drawing lines of demarcation, has certainly exasperated the factional divisions of the region.

3) the 1947/1948 map of the creation of Isreal, and the subsequent map showing recognition of israel and or palestine are stark evidences of a) the western intervention in the area, and b) the absolute rejection of that from almost the whole former muslim empire of 750 (map 20 compared to map 5)

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[quote=That Guy;1078401]ukraine is obama's fault? if it were up to you, we'd be involved in yet another unfunded war, this time vs russians in crimea. that sounds... awesome.[/quote] and if it were up to you we'd just all get on our prayer mats and convert to Islam under IS rule.

[quote]and no, we already send spec ops teams and drones anywhere and everywhere doing "things". obama has increased the use and size of specs ops and drone programs a billion times over.[/quote]You are incorrect. SOCOM funding for FY2012 was 5.091B (an additional $ 2.5B was added as a supplemental to support Iraq/Afghan), funding for FY2014 is $ 5.261B. Funding has increased 3%. In FY2012 SOCOM has a total of 73397 FTEs (Civ/DoD/Contractor), in FY2014 the total is 75985, an increase of 3.4%

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[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078429][B]and if it were up to you we'd just all get on our prayer mats and convert to Islam under IS rule.[/B]

You are incorrect. SOCOM funding for FY2012 was 5.091B (an additional $ 2.5B was added as a supplemental to support Iraq/Afghan), funding for FY2014 is $ 5.261B. Funding has increased 3%. In FY2012 SOCOM has a total of 73397 FTEs (Civ/DoD/Contractor), in FY2014 the total is 75985, an increase of 3.4%[/quote]

How much straw did you use to make that strawman???

Re: All things Middle East related
 

I think the budget is a little more complicated than that. There's quite a few departments with access to those resources and lots of budget games are played to hide the true cost.

I seem to recall higher-ups specifically saying they obfuscate the spending specifically citing keeping adversaries from being able to tell what our abilities are by looking at spending by department/project as the reason. In addition to that there's a quite a history of the government admitting to 'off the books' spending specifically in this area.

I'm not exactly well educated on the issue, but I have a feeling simply looking at SOCOM funding would be quite misleading.