Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;708371]Not executing the murderer shows that society has no power (or will) to provide restitution and justice to a victim's family. This is an issue of displaying to the people governed that their justice system will provide appropriate restitution and there is no need to resort to vigilantism, which if a society devolves to that, is much worse than a death penalty execution.

And from a strictly non-spiritual view, being alive and locked up is a lot better than being dead. If being locked up was so terrible, near the same as death, why are there not more suicides in jail?[/quote]

As if executing the murderer is the only form of justice? To paraphrase Joe: everyone has a different idea of justice.

Prison is not a nice place. There are murders, rapes and suicides among all sorts of other terrible things. Ask anyone who has been to prison how great it is.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;708376]Yes. He is. The murderer took an [I]innocent[/I] life from the societal whole and society owes a duty to its remaining citizens.

As a society, we place a paramount value on the protection of innocent life. We believe, it is fundamental and necessary to our existence as a society and to those fundamental truths articulated in our founding documents: "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

When someone demonstrates that they are willing to disregard/attack the core beliefs of our society, it is our duty, as a society, to make them pay the paramount penalty in order to [I]demonstrate the value[/I] we as a society place on [I]innocent [/I]life. Permitting a guilty murderer to live devalues the innocent life wrongly taken and, some would say, condones the taking of innocent life.

Again, is compassion and forgiveness an element of "justice", if so, who decides when compassion is appropriate? Which is more important - condoning societal compassion to a murderer or making a clear and consistent statement that, in our society, innocent life is our most treasured possesion?[/quote]

Innocent life is clearly not valued and protected as much as you make it out to be when society enacts laws and punishments which inevitably lead to the death of innocents.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708378]I agree that we should get prisoners to work.

But somehow you missed the "life in prison" phrase in the original post. We're not talking here of turning murderers loose.[/quote]

They get turn loose everyday even when they get a life sentence. The only 100% way to know that they will not kill again is by the death sentence. Also an inmate serving a life sentence is the most dangerous person in the prison system because they know they are in there for life and what do they have to loose.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

Lots of thoughtful posts going back and forth, but in the end I'm not sure this one is about thinking as much as it is feeling.

Seeing a murderer/rapist executed feels good to me. Makes things feel right.

Setting laws/punishment in a society is not a science. It comes down to the majority's wishes. Right now, a majority of people in a number of states feel good about executing these criminals. That's all that matters.

Where to draw the line as to who gets executed? Where the majority feels right about it. I think it's in a good place.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Schneed10;708403]Lots of thoughtful posts going back and forth, but in the end I'm not sure this one is about thinking as much as it is feeling.

Seeing a murderer/rapist executed feels good to me. Makes things feel right.

Setting laws/punishment in a society is not a science. It comes down to the majority's wishes. Right now, a majority of people in a number of states feel good about executing these criminals. That's all that matters.

Where to draw the line as to who gets executed? Where the majority feels right about it. I think it's in a good place.[/quote]

Good post, and 100% agree. Well thought out arguments on both sides, but in the end, I feel the same as you do. It's probably in a good place.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

Off topic, and that was a very interesting dialogue on the Death Penalty in society, but here is some interesting details on Hitler's prison time:

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100623/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_hitler_in_jail]New documents surface on Hitler's jail time - Yahoo! News[/url]

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;708407]Off topic, and that was a very interesting dialogue on the Death Penalty in society, but here is some interesting details on Hitler's prison time:

[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100623/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_hitler_in_jail"]New documents surface on Hitler's jail time - Yahoo! News[/URL][/quote]

See look how many lives would have been saved if he had been executed.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=firstdown;708394]They get turn loose everyday even when they get a life sentence. The only 100% way to know that they will not kill again is by the death sentence. Also an inmate serving a life sentence is the most dangerous person in the prison system because they know they are in there for life and what do they have to loose.[/quote]

No. We are talking about life in prison WITHOUT PAROLE. And in maximum security. This set-up protects society from deviants every bit as much as executions.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=firstdown;708423]See look how many lives would have been saved if he had been executed.[/quote]

Yes, lives would have been saved if Hitler had been killed in 1923. But Hitler was not in prison for first-degree murder or some other death penalty offense. It is not the same thing.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Schneed10;708403]Lots of thoughtful posts going back and forth, but in the end I'm not sure this one is about thinking as much as it is feeling.

Seeing a murderer/rapist executed feels good to me. Makes things feel right.

Setting laws/punishment in a society is not a science. It comes down to the majority's wishes. Right now, a majority of people in a number of states feel good about executing these criminals. That's all that matters.

Where to draw the line as to who gets executed? Where the majority feels right about it. I think it's in a good place.[/quote]

I respect your opinions and am not saying that you are wrong. But notice that the arguments made by those against the death penalty are rational arguments, not emotive ones. Herein lies a difference between the sides. I'm not saying better or worse, just different.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708434]No. We are talking about life in prison WITHOUT PAROLE. And in maximum security. This set-up protects society from deviants every bit as much as executions.[/quote]
We are? 14 or 15 states don't have a life sentence without parole.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708388]Innocent life is clearly not valued and protected as much as you make it out to be [B]when society enacts laws and punishments which inevitably lead to the death of innocents[/B].[/quote]

Fair enough and it is for that reason that I, personally, believe that the death penalty should be reserved for those cases where we have 100% certainty.

As to "feelings", without reposting lots o' quotes, I think there have been rational and emotive arguments by both sides. Ultimately, as Schneed pointed out, it comes down to each person's own determination (whether weighted more on emotion or on rationality or some combination of the two) and then that person's participation in the societal choice.

It is such an emotional issue and really cuts into the core of personal beliefs and how those beliefs are translated and absorbed into the society's actions.

Am I a killer b/c the State executed a prisoner? No, but I am a part (and choose to be a part) of a society that kills as part of its definition of justice.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708436]Yes, lives would have been saved if Hitler had been killed in 1923. But Hitler was not in prison for first-degree murder or some other death penalty offense. It is not the same thing.[/quote]

Well he was in jail for trying to mount a coup, which by our constitution is a death penalty offense (treason). But the German government was not stable enough at that time to try anything more than a minimal sentence. As the link showed, he had at least one top general visiting him for extended periods while he was in jail.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

Sometimes a life sentence isn't so bad!

[url=http://www.cnbc.com/id/37870056]News Headlines[/url]

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708438]I respect your opinions and am not saying that you are wrong. But notice that the arguments made by those against the death penalty are rational arguments, not emotive ones. Herein lies a difference between the sides. I'm not saying better or worse, just different.[/quote]

Right, because at the core of people's personalities and the way their brains are hardwired, some have a strong need for justice, and to see the score evened so to speak. If you profile Ghandi's personality, he would absolutely not be one of those people.

For those who have that strong need for justice, justice is not a value, it's an actual need. Meaning for them, it sits somewhere above food, shelter and safety in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. In other words, if people don't get justice, they actually have a physical reaction and get outraged. It's just the way their brains are wired.

For people like Ghandi, justice is a value. Something they strive to attain, but they're not going to get all pissed if it doesn't happen. Instead they'll turn the other cheek and move on.

So while you can make all the rational arguments you want, some sense of justice needs to be maintained to prevent those who need it from raging against the machine. There's a cost/benefit that has to be factored into the equation. And chances are that many people will react violently if the next Jeffrey Dahmer is given life in prison. Given that, it makes more rational sense to put him under the ground, because the will of the masses weighs heavier than the rational thoughts of the few.

In truth, not many people are sentenced to death, it really is only the most egregious of criminal acts that gets you there. Usually, if someone says they're sorry and admits wrongdoing, they'll get life in prison, even in Texas. That strikes a happy medium between maintaining a sense of justice amongst the people, and preserving the sanctity of all human life. That's why you don't see people raging over the issue these days. The line is drawn where society needs it to be.