Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

i am a big Bill Clinton supporter. with that out of the way, NAFTA is the worst piece of... well, i don't know what to call it. other then trash. thats one place to start. get rid of it. the playing field is too uneven. they can pay people $4.00 an hour, or whatever, with no over head( emissions, workers regulations, etc.) there is practically NO safety regulations anywhere, except for the good old U.S.A. until the trade deficit starts to balance out, something must be done. or this country will be back to square one, with unions making a big comeback

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

and its not that i make bad money. its the way inflation is growing. take a trip to the grocery store. or fill up your gas tank. or take your son or daughter to the doctors. at an average of 3% pay raise, i basically cant afford the luxuries that I'm used to. and inflation is one issue the government can do something about
ps- i love your sig

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=dblanch66;320586]
war on terror: what does that mean? and where oh where IS Osama???[/quote]
So you aer basing this war on Osama being caught? All the great things that have been done to stop terrorism (Hussien, the 90% of top terrorists caught and or executed, the tightened security, the extra funding to border patrol) well, I guess that means nothing cause Osama (who is likely dead) might still be in a hole shaking in fear of the USA. Yeah, good point dblanch.

[quote]no child left behind: take a good look at the public school system. you obviously have no children.[/quote]

My mother in law is a principal, and while the system does have flaws, the overall point is quite good for children. Just like anything, you can't expect it to be perfect from day 1. Well, maybe you do, but trust me, things always need to be tweeked.

[quote]unemployment: ask middle to lower middle class folk about jobs. [/quote]
Umm what? I am middle class, and things are GREAT. I live in a lower class town, and guess what...things are great. Unemployment rates are at an all time low here. If you alway look for the negative, just take a wild guess at what you will find? Try looking for positive and you might not think he was the worst president ever. But you choose not to look any positive cause you "I hate bush" glasses are on. No one is really saying he has no flaws, but I will still point out, that our other option was Kerry, and I am absolutely, 110% positive we have the better option in the white house right now. Don't like it? Well, give the USA better options.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;320612]and its not that i make bad money. [/quote]

That's good.

[quote]its the way inflation is growing. [/quote]

Actually it's going down. Look at the housing markets for instance, they are all dieing. My brother's house, outside of Boston, he bought for $610k, now he can't even get $550k for it. (serves him right, I think the house sucks)

[quote]take a trip to the grocery store.[/quote]

If this is a major issue, blame the greedy people SELLING the product. Nothing the government can do here. Farmers can be very greedy...we have MILLIONAIRE farmers here...seriously.

[quote]or fill up your gas tank.[/quote]

I'll give you that one cause I am firm believer that we need to use alternative fuels, and reduce our dependancy on foriegn oil. However, think this wouldn't have happened on someone else's watch, you're mistaken. It sucks that it costs me $80 to fill up, and it doesn't look like it's going to get better. But we as consumers have JUST AS MUCH IF NOT MORE TO DO WITH THIS! We still buy gas at wasteful rates, and the gas companies are making record profits 300% higher than last year. Is this Bush? HELL NO. It's we as citizens. Put the blame where it belongs.

[quote]or take your son or daughter to the doctors.[/quote]

It only costs me $20. That doesn't break anyone's bank. So why is this an issue for you?

[quote]at an average of 3% pay raise, i basically cant afford the luxuries that I'm used to. and inflation is one issue the government can do something about[/QUOTE]

What luxuries are you referring to? Eating caviar on your yacht? The majority of the country is living well. I know this doesn't make anyone feel better, but it's true.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

i can tell by this post that you and i have a totally different outlook on life.i worry about the single mother of 3, doing every thing she can to keep it all going.i look back on my life, and realize how lucky i have been. at what might have happened if i wasn't so lucky. i always look at the big picture. i don't think any American can look in the mirror, and say this country is better off now, then opposed to 8 or 10 tears ago. this idiotic thing that we are involved in is keeping our country separated. it is not a war. in a real war, you always know who the enemy is. the president refuses to listen to those who have put him in office. we ARE one divided mess of a country

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;320671]i can tell by this post that you and i have a totally different outlook on life.i worry about the single mother of 3, doing every thing she can to keep it all going.i look back on my life, and realize how lucky i have been. at what might have happened if i wasn't so lucky. i always look at the big picture. i don't think any American can look in the mirror, and say this country is better off now, then opposed to 8 or 10 tears ago. this idiotic thing that we are involved in is keeping our country separated. it is not a war. in a real war, you always know who the enemy is. the president refuses to listen to those who have put him in office. we ARE one divided mess of a country[/QUOTE]

Yes, we are a divided mess. But we were all agreed to go to this war, some just decided to quit early. The ones that are quitting are dividing the country. Why start something you don't intend to finish?

You are also right that we have a different outlook on life. I firmly beleive in self responsibility and everything in your life, you have attracted to yourself, good or bad.
Do I feel bad for the single mother with 3 kids... well maybe. Are they from the same father? Did the HUSBAND die? Cause if she is just sleeping around and not taking resposibility for her actions, why does that responsibility fall on me and my tax dollars? I have no problem helping a woman that started a family and had a wonderful loving relationship in marriage, then the husband dies and she can't take care of that family. I feel for that. I have NO SYMPATHY what-so-ever for the single mother with 3 kids from different fathers that has never been married. NONE. Does that sound cold? Maybe...but again...I work and bust ass so that my family is taking care of, I shouldn't have to worry about what people with no morals or cares, or the people that have no responsibility are doing. My money should stay with me. I EARNED it, they did not earn my money.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;320678]Yes, we are a divided mess. But we were all agreed to go to this war, some just decided to quit early. The ones that are quitting are dividing the country. Why start something you don't intend to finish?

You are also right that we have a different outlook on life. I firmly beleive in self responsibility and everything in your life, you have attracted to yourself, good or bad.
Do I feel bad for the single mother with 3 kids... well maybe. Are they from the same father? Did the HUSBAND die? Cause if she is just sleeping around and not taking resposibility for her actions, why does that responsibility fall on me and my tax dollars? I have no problem helping a woman that started a family and had a wonderful loving relationship in marriage, then the husband dies and she can't take care of that family. I feel for that. I have NO SYMPATHY what-so-ever for the single mother with 3 kids from different fathers that has never been married. NONE. Does that sound cold? Maybe...but again...I work and bust ass so that my family is taking care of, I shouldn't have to worry about what people with no morals or cares, or the people that have no responsibility are doing. My money should stay with me. I EARNED it, they did not earn my money.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure you're not a Cowboy fan?

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

This is still a great country. Thank your lucky stars you're not a Palestinian or a Russian or even a Frenchman where unemployment is perpetually in the double digits. Or you could have been born in Africa where they don't even have potable water and AIDS is epidemic. I can't imagine any other place I would want to live. The rest of the world is a first class shithole compared to us. This is why I don't give a flip what they think of us. If they don't like it, they can lump it and then take it down the street and dump it.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfAdDHcTwq0]YouTube - All in The Family - Flashback 2-2[/url]

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=dblanch66;320682]Are you sure you're not a Cowboy fan?[/QUOTE]

Why? Cause I practice and preach self responsibility?
You are obviously a democrat...only dems beleive in taking money from the hard workers.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=70Chip;320683]This is still a great country. Thank your lucky stars you're not a Palestinian or a Russian or even a Frenchman where unemployment is perpetually in the double digits. Or you could have been born in Africa where they don't even have potable water and AIDS is epidemic. I can't imagine any other place I would want to live. The rest of the world is a first class shithole compared to us. This is why I don't give a flip what they think of us. If they don't like it, they can lump it and then take it down the street and dump it.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfAdDHcTwq0"]YouTube - All in The Family - Flashback 2-2[/URL][/quote]
this is a stout republican thought process. because i complain about MY country, i must want to live somewhere else. i never mentioned moving, or living anywhere else. but because i disagree, i am wrong. just like being a democrat, and anti Christian. only republicans believe in god? and i am against the war, so i don't support our troops? i was never in favor of occupying Iraq. and now that we know it was a mistake, its time to fix our screw up, and try a different approach

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

I am re-retiring from political threads on this site. This thread is 22 pages of bumper sticker slogans that has gone absolutely nowhere.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;320686]Why? Cause I practice and preach self responsibility?
You are obviously a democrat...only dems beleive in taking money from the hard workers.[/QUOTE]

No sense of humor. You must be a republican.
I'm done with this.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=djnemo65;320696]I am re-retiring from political threads on this site. This thread is 22 pages of bumper sticker slogans that has gone absolutely nowhere.[/quote]

As opposed to the non-political threads that have helped solve world hunger and cured all manner of disease. How is this thread any worse than the others?

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;320699]As opposed to the non-political threads that have helped solve world hunger and cured all manner of disease. How is this thread any worse than the others?[/QUOTE]

Um, my standard for a thread is not solving world hunger, but rather, entertaining and/or enlightening me. This thread has done neither. So there you go.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=70Chip;320161]Would you be willing to give your definition of "neo-con"? I'm curious as to what different folks think it means. I first heard the word in 1985 from my 9th grade World History teacher and it seems to have undergone quite an evolution.[/quote]

Ron Paul defines neo-con best:

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYdxD8UgG3A&mode=related&search="]YouTube - Neo-CONNED! by Congressman Ron Paul - Part 4 of 11[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w_aT6L44Mg&mode=related&search="]YouTube - Neo-CONNED! by Congressman Ron Paul - Part 5 of 11[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i_TmD1Y9tc&mode=related&search="]YouTube - Neo-CONNED! by Congressman Ron Paul - Part 6 of 11[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EDScCuh4bw&mode=related&search="]YouTube - Neo-CONNED! by Congressman Ron Paul - Part 7 of 11[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el8evuL5Sr4&mode=related&search="]YouTube - Neo-CONNED! by Congressman Ron Paul - Part 8 of 11[/URL]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR31DZrrYDI&mode=related&search=]YouTube - Neo-CONNED! by Congressman Ron Paul - Part 9 of 11[/url]

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

Great videos. Thanks for the links, Saden.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=jsarno;320678]Yes, we are a divided mess. But we were all agreed to go to this war, some just decided to quit early. The ones that are quitting are dividing the country. Why start something you don't intend to finish?

You are also right that we have a different outlook on life. I firmly beleive in self responsibility and everything in your life, you have attracted to yourself, good or bad.
Do I feel bad for the single mother with 3 kids... well maybe. Are they from the same father? Did the HUSBAND die? Cause if she is just sleeping around and not taking resposibility for her actions, why does that responsibility fall on me and my tax dollars? I have no problem helping a woman that started a family and had a wonderful loving relationship in marriage, then the husband dies and she can't take care of that family. I feel for that. I have NO SYMPATHY what-so-ever for the single mother with 3 kids from different fathers that has never been married. NONE. Does that sound cold? Maybe...but again...I work and bust ass so that my family is taking care of, I shouldn't have to worry about what people with no morals or cares, or the people that have no responsibility are doing. My money should stay with me. I EARNED it, they did not earn my money.[/quote]

Your money is currently being used to fight a war against a country that did not attack us and has never used terrorists against us. It is also being used to fund tax breaks for the super wealthy, with the added insult that the resultant national debt will have to be paid off by you and your children. It is also true that a catastrophic illness can destroy you economically or kill you because of poor insurance; insurance companies are big contributors to the Republican party. While you're worries about the nickles and dimes that support the poor, you're being robbed by Halliburton and numerous other corporations who have their hands in your pockets. Further, your income is suppressed by non inforcement of anti-trust laws, as well as outsourcing and numerous bought and paid for governmental policies from the middle-ages that are designed to keep wages as low as possible.
Further, schools are terrible in most areas of the country, justice is obtainable only by the rich, your rights are being violated on a daily basis:
you are being spied upon, you are subjected to indefinate detention and torture if the government suspects you of being a terrorist, and your children are cannon fodder or potential cannon fodder while the children of the wealthy are ice skating in the alps.
As a fairly rich man, I can tell you that I have many tax breaks you can only dream about, enjoy the protection of the judicial system you could only enjoy by moving to a country like Sweden, and work only a couple of hours a day. I, in fact, think it both sad and faintly amusing when the middle class starts crying about giving the usual pennies to the welfare state and refers to me as "hard working" and deserving of the many thousands of dollars a year you dump in my pockets and actually believe things like the deficit doesn't really matter or that the Iraq invasion had something to do with democracy or terrorism.
We are in the middle east for power and money, and it's the middle-class and lower classes paying the fright.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

Politics are corupt and have been since the beginnigng. No matter who you put into a government office they always will be. Nobody truly knows why we went to war. All anyone can conjure up is their own theory, but not one person can provide substantial proof. You never go to war for one reason, there are a multitude. It wasn't one man that made the decision, it was several. Everybody is just pissed off because we are still there. Well guess what folks? You cannot go into any country on a large scale operation and destroy the whole country without helping to rebuild it. Even after the Civil War the south had to be reconstructed, but the job wasnt ever fully accomplished for nearly a century. However it is expected that we rebuild somebody elses country in a couple of years.

Put aside why we went to Iraq and realize that what we did was already done. Whether or not the reason we did it was justified or not. It is not right to just back out now and leave the country in ruin. Our doing has to be undone. Anything else would be inhumane.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;321871]Your money is currently being used to fight a war against a country that did not attack us and has never used terrorists against us. [/quote]

LOL...you must be a comedian. I suppose Hussien was executed for cussing. If you want to think that Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism, then we really have no need to go on from here. That is laughable. On top of that, once we were in Iraq, there was PLENTY of discoveries about terrorism. How many of the top 100 terrorists were from Iraq by the way? (that's rhetorical)
ps- your democrats agreed with this war too...don't forget that and think just cause Bush is the one that finally pulled the trigger, that he is to blame. You can't go to war by waking up one day and say "Hmmm, I think I'll go to war today" (strategery like)

[quote]It is also being used to fund tax breaks for the super wealthy,[/quote]

OK, I will comment on this one cause it disturbs me that you or anyone feel that the wealthy should be over taxed just cause they are wealthy. It's not right. The wealthy worked for their money (in most cases) so why are they being punished with a 35%+ tax rate when the normal citizens are paying 20% or so? ANy way you try to slice it, it is wrong. It's not right to single out a group of people and over tax them cause "they can afford it".

Also, MY TAXES are not being used to give a tax break to the wealthy, get your facts right. The middle class go a tax BREAK, not a hike.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;321871]
We are in the middle east for power and money, and it's the middle-class and lower classes paying the fright.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I forgot about this one...how is it exactly the lower and middle class are paying the "fright"? They both got tax BREAKS. We are paying less in tax now than when Clinton was in office...so what exactly is your point there?

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;321874]Politics are corupt and have been since the beginnigng. No matter who you put into a government office they always will be. Nobody truly knows why we went to war. All anyone can conjure up is their own theory, but not one person can provide substantial proof. You never go to war for one reason, there are a multitude. It wasn't one man that made the decision, it was several. Everybody is just pissed off because we are still there. Well guess what folks? You cannot go into any country on a large scale operation and destroy the whole country without helping to rebuild it. Even after the Civil War the south had to be reconstructed, but the job wasnt ever fully accomplished for nearly a century. However it is expected that we rebuild somebody elses country in a couple of years.[/quote]

Very good points angry.
Also noteworthy is to say, if clinton took care of the issues during his presidency, then the towers would still be up, and we wouldn't be in this mess. But that's what happens when your head is in the sand (or a female section)

[quote]Put aside why we went to Iraq and realize that what we did was already done. Whether or not the reason we did it was justified or not. It is not right to just back out now and leave the country in ruin. Our doing has to be undone. Anything else would be inhumane.[/QUOTE]

100% agreed.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;321871]As a fairly rich man, I can tell you that I have many tax breaks you can only dream about, enjoy the protection of the judicial system you could only enjoy by moving to a country like Sweden, and work only a couple of hours a day.[/quote]

If you don't like the Bush taxcuts, have your accountant figure up what you would have owed under the old tax regime and send the government a check. Better yet, figure out what you would have owed before JFK cut taxes, when the top rate was 90%. As a fairly poor man I sure would appreciate it and you will sleep better at night and have one less thing to complain about.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=jsarno;322087]Very good points angry.
Also noteworthy is to say, [B]if clinton took care of the issues during his[/B] [B]presidency,[/B] then the towers would still be up, and we wouldn't be in this mess. But that's what happens when your head is in the sand (or a female section)



100% agreed.[/quote]
oh, how easy it is to deflect the blame. is that also like saying if senior Bush would have finished what he started in Iraq, 3000 American soldiers would still be alive? and correct me if im wrong, but during Bill Clintons tenure, the republicans controlled congress. they could have done pretty much what they wanted. how is that , tit for tat?

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=70Chip;322099]If you don't like the Bush taxcuts, have your accountant figure up what you would have owed under the old tax regime and send the government a check. Better yet, figure out what you would have owed before JFK cut taxes, when the top rate was 90%. As a fairly poor man I sure would appreciate it and you will sleep better at night and have one less thing to complain about.[/quote]
ill tell you what. if its that easy, ill send my tax cut money back, if bush brings the troops home. i cant understand why he cant hear the american people calling for the end. he is supposed to be the voice of his people, right?

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;322102]oh, how easy it is to deflect the blame. is that also like saying if senior Bush would have finished what he started in Iraq, 3000 American soldiers would still be alive? and correct me if im wrong, but during Bill Clintons tenure, the republicans controlled congress. they could have done pretty much what they wanted. how is that , tit for tat?[/QUOTE]

SO sn. Bush was wrong for backing out, yet GW gets blasted for not backing out?????? Do dems even have a clue what they really want?

(I'm not deflecting the blame, I say Clinton sucked, and Bush had to clean up the mess...that's not deflection, that's Bush stepping up to the plate.)

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;322104]ill tell you what. if its that easy, ill send my tax cut money back, if bush brings the troops home. i cant understand why he cant hear the american people calling for the end. he is supposed to be the voice of his people, right?[/QUOTE]

The people are wrong. You don't back out now.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=dmek25;322104]ill tell you what. if its that easy, ill send my tax cut money back, if bush brings the troops home. i cant understand why he cant hear the american people calling for the end. he is supposed to be the voice of his people, right?[/quote]

What could be easier? Do you think the IRS will return your money? They don't care if you overpay.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

This thread reminds me of:
[IMG]http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/Thread-Sucks-ComeFor-Bush.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=jsarno;322107]The people are wrong. You don't back out now.[/quote]
so, you're right, and 80% of America is wrong?

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=jsarno;322106]SO sn. Bush was wrong for backing out, yet GW gets blasted for not backing out?????? Do dems even have a clue what they really want?

(I'm not deflecting the blame, I say Clinton sucked, and Bush had to clean up the mess...that's not deflection, [B]that's Bush stepping up to the plate[/B].)[/quote]
taking us into Iraq, when the united states had no business being there. whose mess is he cleaning up? maybe his old mans. for some strange reason, this president really doesn't understand the meaning of politics. so now we have a mess in Iran. oh, what to do? who can we blame this on? i sure for some stupid reason, that this, and any other problem, is Bill Clinton's fault. because he surely is the root of all evil. and the republicans still haven't been able to accept the fact that even they are wrong every once in a while

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=dmek25;322161]taking us into Iraq, when the united states had no business being there. [B]whose mess is he cleaning up?[/B] maybe his old mans. for some strange reason, this president really doesn't understand the meaning of politics. so now we have a mess in Iran. oh, what to do? who can we blame this on? i sure for some stupid reason, that this, and any other problem, is Bill Clinton's fault. because he surely is the root of all evil. and the republicans still haven't been able to accept the fact that even they are wrong every once in a while[/quote]


Ours because we put that evil dictating SOB in power! As a matter of fact Jimmy Carter (A Democrat) was the President in office at the time. So we have been trying to clean up his mess for three decades!

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=jsarno;322106]SO sn. Bush was wrong for backing out, yet GW gets blasted for not backing out?????? Do dems even have a clue what they really want?

(I'm not deflecting the blame, I say Clinton sucked, and Bush had to clean up the mess...that's not deflection, that's Bush stepping up to the plate.)[/quote]

No reputable historian blames Clinton for causing the mess that led to 911. Most hold that American foreign policy since the end of the cold war fueled it (through many presidencies). It's not helpful to oversimplify, childish even, and reflective of an emotional need to distort. The metaphor of Bush stepping up to the place is also of such making. Bush might be said that Bush stepped up to the plate in regard to Afghanistan and Osama at first is appropriate, but to let the methaphor also seemingly apply to the attack on Iraq is a ludicrous disservice to the truth. You apparently actually believe that Iraq aided in the 911 attack and/or had terrorists conducting anti-American activities, as well-- even thought absolutely neither of the above has ever been shown to be even remotely true.
Try to let this sink in. Bush and Chaney are liars and deliberately mislead the public and Congress in relation to WMD's and Iraq's involvement in 911.
There's already half a library on the subject, as well as numerous witnesses. That is the way reputable scholars and historians see the matter now, and that is the way they'll see it in the future.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;322197]No reputable historian blames Clinton for causing the mess that led to 911. Most hold that American foreign policy since the end of the cold war fueled it (through many presidencies). It's not helpful to oversimplify, childish even, and reflective of an emotional need to distort. The metaphor of Bush stepping up to the place is also of such making. Bush might be said that Bush stepped up to the plate in regard to Afghanistan and Osama at first is appropriate, but to let the methaphor also seemingly apply to the attack on Iraq is a ludicrous disservice to the truth. You apparently actually believe that Iraq aided in the 911 attack and/or had terrorists conducting anti-American activities, as well-- even thought absolutely neither of the above has ever been shown to be even remotely true.
Try to let this sink in. Bush and Chaney are liars and deliberately mislead the public and Congress in relation to WMD's and Iraq's involvement in 911.
There's already half a library on the subject, as well as numerous witnesses. That is the way reputable scholars and historians see the matter now, and that is the way they'll see it in the future.[/quote]


First of all you have no way of proving that they are liars. Well maybe Cheney, but I believe that Bush might have been mislead just as our Secretary of State was at the time. Once again you cannot change the past, but you can still impact the future. What good other than shutting up the American People does pulling out of Iraq right now provide? Absolutely none.

By the way, the War is called Operation Iraqi Freedom. I want you to think about that for a couple of seconds.



Now, does it say anything about fighting terrorists in the name? No, it doesnt. The only thing that you can gather from the title is the liberation of Iraqi people. Liberating them from an Asshole that we gave the power to overthrow another asshole 28 years ago. It had to be done sooner or later.

One more thing. If Sadam wasn't hiding WMD's, then why was I over there during Clinton's term as well? Because of his refusal to cooperate with UN inspectors. No wait a minuite,thats right, the President was trying to take the country's mind off of the fact that he was getting BJ's from Monica!

There were and are WMD's. They may have been moved (maybe to another country, hmmm Iran is awfully suspecious), or they are still hidden, but they exist. What in the hell do you think that they launched into Israel in 91? Confetti!

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;322197]No reputable historian blames Clinton for causing the mess that led to 911. Most hold that American foreign policy since the end of the cold war fueled it (through many presidencies). It's not helpful to oversimplify, childish even, and reflective of an emotional need to distort. The metaphor of Bush stepping up to the place is also of such making. Bush might be said that Bush stepped up to the plate in regard to Afghanistan and Osama at first is appropriate, but to let the methaphor also seemingly apply to the attack on Iraq is a ludicrous disservice to the truth. You apparently actually believe that Iraq aided in the 911 attack and/or had terrorists conducting anti-American activities, as well-- even thought absolutely neither of the above has ever been shown to be even remotely true.
Try to let this sink in. Bush and Chaney are liars and deliberately mislead the public and Congress in relation to WMD's and Iraq's involvement in 911.
There's already half a library on the subject, as well as numerous witnesses. That is the way reputable scholars and historians see the matter now, and that is the way they'll see it in the future.[/QUOTE]

I love the "Bush lied" crowd. When did he lie? Did he get everyone else to lie too? Because it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of decision makers both Rep and Dem agreed. There is a gigantic difference between being wrong and lying. Mistaking one for the other is a "disservice" to the truth. As long as the extremists keep yelling about Bush lying they won't get traction in this country. The American people don't care whether he lied or not. They care about how it is going and what the plan is from here. That is where the politcal traction lays and no one seems to want to take a ride on it.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=dmek25;322102]oh, how easy it is to deflect the blame. is that also like saying if senior Bush would have finished what he started in Iraq, 3000 American soldiers would still be alive? and correct me if im wrong, but during Bill Clintons tenure, [B]the republicans controlled congress. they could have done pretty much what they wanted[/B]. how is that , tit for tat?[/quote]

Yes, Congress is the only branch of Government that can declare war, however Clinton was still the Commander In Chief.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=dmek25;322104]ill tell you what. if its that easy, ill send my tax cut money back, [B]if bush brings the troops home. i cant understand why he cant hear the american people calling for the end[/B]. he is supposed to be the voice of his people, right?[/quote]

Yes it is sad that Americans are dying. We all want the rest of our boys home. But how are their lives any more significant than the lives of the natives of that country that do need our help and actually have more freedom now because we are there. Freedom isn't free you know.

It was wrong to pull out of Vietnam, when the complaints of the people forced the hand of the President. It would be wrong to pull out of Iraq now. As badly as we want it, for our own selfish reasons it is not the right thing to do.

History lesson. The North Vietnamese were never able to effectivly penetrate and push our forces back. It wasnt until our withdrawl that they were able move into the south. The fall of Saigon did not occour until the last US Soldiers left.

So should we withdrawl from Iraq now and leave the people in the hands of a dim fate, or do like we did in Nazi Germany and help them rebuild and establish a stable form of less corrupt Government?

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=angryssg;322230]Yes it is sad that Americans are dying. We all want the rest of our boys home. But how are their lives any more significant than the lives of the natives of that country that do need our help and actually have more freedom now because we are there. Freedom isn't free you know.

It was wrong to pull out of Vietnam, when the complaints of the people forced the hand of the President. It would be wrong to pull out of Iraq now. As badly as we want it, for our own selfish reasons it is not the right thing to do.

History lesson. The North Vietnamese were never able to effectivly penetrate and push our forces back. It wasnt until our withdrawl that they were able move into the south. The fall of Saigon did not occour until the last US Soldiers left.

So should we withdrawl from Iraq now and leave the people in the hands of a dim fate, or do like we did in Nazi Germany and help them rebuild and establish a stable form of less corrupt Government?[/quote]

We are the dim fate the people of Iraq have been are subjected to. We've killed over 200,000 of them just in the last few years, as well as tortured
approximately 50,000 non-terrorists just to be on the safe side. We've also established what were built to be permanent bases in Iraq and plotted to use its oil to pay for the war and stake a permanent claim on Iraqi resourses. We attacked Iraq for money and to get a foothold in the middle east in a neo-con effort to increase American hegemony, just as we did in Nam.
Try dealing with the bitter and increasingly obvious truth (as the evidence stacks up) that our leaders have never cared zip about Iraqis. Try to be as smart as a typical Iraqi ten year old and the rest of the civilized world, which now regards us as world threat No. 1. We have been bamboozled by our leadership, which has made repeated attacks on our own Constitution and Bill of Rights and tried to establish an executive branch that is beyond the law.
The current administration believes neither in Iraqi freedom or American freedom. Until you understand that, you are living in a state of delusion and have no real chance of saying anything meaningful about our current situation. The war in Iraq is terribly serious, but it is relatively meaningless in relation to what Bush and his administration has done and is still in the process of doing to our country.

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;322239][B]We are the dim fate the people of Iraq have been are subjected to.[/B] False, we are protecting them from each other.
[B]We've also established what were built to be permanent bases in Iraq and plotted to use its oil to pay for the war. [/B]True

[B]and stake a permanent claim on Iraqi resourses. [/B]False (your opinion)
[B]We attacked Iraq to get a foothold in the[/B] [B]middle east[/B] True
.
[B]Try dealing with the bitter and increasingly obvious truth (as the evidence stacks up) that our leaders have never cared zip about Iraqis.[/B] False, our leaders over there care.

[B]Try to be as smart as a typical Iraqi ten year old [/B]Ouch, not fair!
[B]and the rest of the civilized world, which now regards us as world threat No. 1.[/B] So why does UN always use more US troops than anyone elses for peace keeping missions?

[B]The current administration believes neither in Iraqi freedom or American freedom. Until you understand that, you are living in a state of delusion and have no real chance of saying anything meaningful about our current situation[/B]. Yor opinion once again, try pointing out a little bit of fact to support it next time.quote]

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;322209]I love the "Bush lied" crowd. When did he lie? Did he get everyone else to lie too? Because it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of decision makers both Rep and Dem agreed. There is a gigantic difference between being wrong and lying. Mistaking one for the other is a "disservice" to the truth. As long as the extremists keep yelling about Bush lying they won't get traction in this country. The American people don't care whether he lied or not. They care about how it is going and what the plan is from here. That is where the politcal traction lays and no one seems to want to take a ride on it.[/QUOTE]

Actually, Obama never agreed

Re: Let's impeach the president.
 

[quote=jdlea;322251]Actually, Obama never agreed[/quote]
Well we have something we can agree upon and if I'm correct he is the only person running for office that voted against the war.