Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1078436]How much straw did you use to make that strawman???[/quote]same amount as TG used to say I'd put us in full scale war with Russia.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=tshile;1078437]I think the budget is a little more complicated than that. There's quite a few departments with access to those resources and lots of budget games are played to hide the true cost.

I seem to recall higher-ups specifically saying they obfuscate the spending specifically citing keeping adversaries from being able to tell what our abilities are by looking at spending by department/project as the reason. In addition to that there's a quite a history of the government admitting to 'off the books' spending specifically in this area.

I'm not exactly well educated on the issue, but I have a feeling simply looking at SOCOM funding would be quite misleading.[/quote]my numbers are high level, but they are pretty accurate. Most of the games with funding are done within the Intel community. I am fairly educated on DoD funding.

My point to TG is that Obama hasn't increased Spec Ops funding "a billion times over"....or anywhere near a significant percentage increase.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078452]my numbers are high level, but they are pretty accurate. Most of the games with funding are done within the Intel community. I am fairly educated on DoD funding.

My point to TG is that Obama hasn't increased Spec Ops funding "a billion times over"....or anywhere near a significant percentage increase.[/quote]
That's fair.

I'm admittedly ignorant on it. My post reflects my layman's view on things. That's all :)

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1078452]my numbers are high level, but they are pretty accurate. Most of the games with funding are done within the Intel community. I am fairly educated on DoD funding.

My point to TG is that Obama hasn't increased Spec Ops funding "a billion times over"....or anywhere near a significant percentage increase.[/quote]

i'm sorry, but my first hand experience is far different than your numbers on charts. manning levels and breadth of action vastly increased at ground level.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/american-man-suspected-fighting-islamic-state-killed-205440929.html]American man suspected of fighting with Islamic State is killed[/url]


Good. Glad he's dead. Piece of shit.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Now they have gone too far. Send in the marines!

The Islamic State is now burning marijuana fields in northern Syria: [url]http://t.co/zdJRiKaeOx[/url] [url]http://t.co/C5ZKvHkQ62[/url]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

This is what it's all about. To say any different is ignorance to say the least.

A land grab.

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29008045]BBC News - Israel to take over West Bank land[/url]

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/world/middleeast/israel-claims-nearly-1000-acres-of-west-bank-land-near-bethlehem.html?_r=0[/url]


At this point, I think we should halt all aid and put up sanctions against Israel. Never will happen because we have too many Israeli supporters in this country.

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/01/world/meast/mideast-israel-west-bank/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Israel slammed for West Bank land expropriation - CNN.com[/url]

UK and US aren't happy. Why are we putting sanctions against Putin but not Israel?


[url=http://news.yahoo.com/us-urges-israel-reverse-plan-seize-west-bank-182217661.html]US urges Israel to reverse Palestinian land-grab plan[/url]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1079907]This is what it's all about. To say any different is ignorance to say the least.

A land grab.

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29008045]BBC News - Israel to take over West Bank land[/url]

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/world/middleeast/israel-claims-nearly-1000-acres-of-west-bank-land-near-bethlehem.html?_r=0[/url]


At this point, I think we should halt all aid and put up sanctions against Israel. Never will happen because we have too many Israeli supporters in this country.

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/01/world/meast/mideast-israel-west-bank/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Israel slammed for West Bank land expropriation - CNN.com[/url]

UK and US aren't happy. Why are we putting sanctions against Putin but not Israel?


[url=http://news.yahoo.com/us-urges-israel-reverse-plan-seize-west-bank-182217661.html]US urges Israel to reverse Palestinian land-grab plan[/url][/quote]

NC, this is a huge issue and the illegal settlements have been unjustly going on for a long time.

The problem is this is under reported by the media because it a boring story for the middle east and has been for awhile.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1079907]This is what it's all about. To say any different is ignorance to say the least.

A land grab.

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29008045]BBC News - Israel to take over West Bank land[/url]

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/world/middleeast/israel-claims-nearly-1000-acres-of-west-bank-land-near-bethlehem.html?_r=0[/url]


At this point, I think we should halt all aid and put up sanctions against Israel. Never will happen because we have too many Israeli supporters in this country.

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/01/world/meast/mideast-israel-west-bank/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Israel slammed for West Bank land expropriation - CNN.com[/url]

UK and US aren't happy. Why are we putting sanctions against Putin but not Israel?


[url=http://news.yahoo.com/us-urges-israel-reverse-plan-seize-west-bank-182217661.html]US urges Israel to reverse Palestinian land-grab plan[/url][/quote]That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit. Yes, the cycle of violence continues. Ultimate responsibility lies with the group that has it in their charter to obliterate the other side, keeps breaking the ceasefires, and makes no effort to avoid civilian casualties.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1079959]That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit. Yes, the cycle of violence continues. Ultimate responsibility lies with the group that has it in their charter to obliterate the other side, keeps breaking the ceasefires, and makes no effort to avoid civilian casualties.[/quote]

blame game is what holds everything back. This both need to come clean and bear some responsibility, both are in the wrong. Once that happens, then they can move forward.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Fuck isis

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1079959]That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit. Yes, the cycle of violence continues. Ultimate responsibility lies with the group that has it in their charter to obliterate the other side, keeps breaking the ceasefires, and makes no effort to avoid civilian casualties.[/quote]

That describes both sides...

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1079959]That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit. Yes, the cycle of violence continues. Ultimate responsibility lies with the group that has it in their charter to obliterate the other side, keeps breaking the ceasefires, and makes no effort to avoid civilian casualties.[/quote]


Gaza has nothing to do with the West Bank. You do realize they are two separate areas right? (apparently not) The land the Israelis are stealing isn't even remotely close to the Gaza strip where the conflict occurred.


[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/West_bank_and_Gaza_Governotates.jpg[/IMG]


For the those lacking knowledge of the area. Hamas doesn't govern nor control the West Bank. That territory is broken down into different Governorates with those being governed by the Palestinian National Authority.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governorates_of_Palestine]Governorates of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority]Palestinian National Authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]


[quote=Chico23231;1079978]blame game is what holds everything back. This both need to come clean and bear some responsibility, both are in the wrong. Once that happens, then they can move forward.[/quote]


He doesn't understand that the West Bank and Gaza are two different areas. No offense to HailGreen, but it's ignorant people like him that continue to excuse the crimes of Israel.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Another you got to realize that the Palenstinein authority runs West Bank and Hamas runs Gaza...i might have vice versa that...but thats the thing most dont realize. And because of that, there is an obvious power struggle.

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Looks like Israel is backing down. They'll just wait till it blows over and take the land without it going reported.

[url=http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-cancels-settlement-plans-due-international-pressure-1015162706]Israel cancels settlement plans due to international pressure | Middle East Eye[/url]

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[quote=donofriose;1079996]That describes both sides...[/quote]Really, not saying Israel is perfect, but what other army calls up the home/businesses/whatever they are attacking to warn the occupants to leave, before attacking?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1080002]Gaza has nothing to do with the West Bank. You do realize they are two separate areas right? (apparently not) The land the Israelis are stealing isn't even remotely close to the Gaza strip where the conflict occurred.

He doesn't understand that the West Bank and Gaza are two different areas. No offense to HailGreen, but it's ignorant people like him that continue to excuse the crimes of Israel.[/quote]No offense, NCSkins, but you are an idiot if you think Gaza and the West Bank are completely divorced from each other, that the faction in the West Bank hasn't launched intifadas in the past, and things are settled in either territory.

One terrorist attack was enough for us to invade afghanistan. How many rocket attacks does it take for Isreal to say that obviously Palestinians aren't yet willing to make lasting peace like the Egyptians did?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1080055]Really, not saying Israel is perfect, but what other army calls up the home/businesses/whatever they are attacking to warn the occupants to leave, before attacking?[/quote]

you mean like 2008 when they told everyone they wouldn't be attacking the UN school compound, people went there, and then they bombed it anyways?

or when they use white phosphorus and accidentally burnt the palestine food aid?

you're taking one detail that they sometimes give warning and ignoring the other details involving thousands of detentions, hundreds of civilian deaths, and a planned overt land grab over 3 dead israelis. the reaction is just not proportional.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1080064]you mean like 2008 when they told everyone they wouldn't be attacking the UN school compound, people went there, and then they bombed it anyways?

or when they use white phosphorus and accidentally burnt the palestine food aid?

you're taking one detail that they sometimes give warning and ignoring the other details involving thousands of detentions, hundreds of civilian deaths, and a planned overt land grab over 3 dead israelis. the reaction is just not proportional.[/quote]Not just "one detail", you are the one cherry picking, as far back as 2008, to try making Isreal look as bad as the Hamas terrorist organization.

Keep in mind all of the above, even spun as you did, is in response to unprovoked rocket and other terrorist attacks by Palestinians. (Unprovoked, because they occur whether Israel withdraws from or occupies land, and simple existing isn't justifiable provocation to be attacked.)

What Israel is saying:

[URL="http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2012/11/15/how-does-the-idf-minimize-harm-to-palestinian-civilians/"]Methods of Avoiding Civilian Casualties
1. Phone calls: (snip)
2. Leaflets: (snip)
3. 3. Diverting missiles in mid-flight (snip)[/URL]


What Hamas is saying:

[URL="http://www.moi.gov.ps/En/Details.aspx?NID=67875"]First, the ministry calling all our people not to deal or pay attention to the psychological warfare carried out by the occupation through rumors that broadcast across his media and delivering publications and communications on the phones of citizens, and the lack of response for each of these means, which aims to weaken the domestic front in light of great steadfastness of our people to face the aggression.[/URL]

So to recruit more terrorists, Hams is less concerned about Palestinian civilians than Israel is. And don't forget the total indiscriminate Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

And aside from the difficulties in hitting target accurately, Hamas hiding behind civilians and other "safe" areas, makes it harder to avoid civilian casualties.

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/"]The United Nations has found troves of rockets hidden in three of its schools since the conflict began. “We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school,” Chris Gunness, spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, said in statement published Wednesday by the Times of Israel. “This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of U.N. property.”

Earlier this month, the United Nations also found rockets piled inside one of its vacant schools — near other schools used to accommodate displaced people.[/URL]

So quit pretending that Hamas isn't the party actually responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza. In addition to being responsible for their own attacks on Israel.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Sometimes, I think the warnings are just an additional psychological warfare.
A) it reinforces the fact that the Palestinians can't stop it, which is humiliating and degrading
B) it rarely affords enough time for true evacuations, so you have x number of minutes waiting whether or not the bombs will come. For example they demolished a 12 story building a few weeks ago with 15 minute warning. I am sure that the Palestinians had plenty of time from that to have an orderly and systematic exit from their residence. Heck, I evacuate all my belongings in 10minutes every other Saturday - just for fun [/sarc]

I mean imagine a burglar so confident that he was untouchable that he tells you he is going to come in, take all your money and kill your wife in 20 minutes. You would do everything you could to make sure he couldn't. But suppose he had done it to every other house in your neighborhood, and never been stopped, or arrested. Then maybe you just feel terror that it's happening to you this time. And maybe if a group of people tell you, we can't stop the burglar but we could hurt his family, or his community, maybe you don't consider it as wrong to support that group as an outside viewer might. Maybe you just want vengeance and outsiders that don't even share your basic life views can piss in the wind.
Maybe.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

How many Israeli civilian deaths have occurred from the indiscriminate rocket fire? How many Palestinian civilian deaths from the announced "targeted" air strikes?

I get that Hamas is guilty too. Neither side has blood free hands. But it amazes me the lengths supporters of Israel go to negate the obvious control Israel has over the whole situation. When Egypt and Jordan were part of it, Yeah, Israel was fighting for survival, but that's not the case now. Israel Egypt and Jordan have a basic understanding. Israel as a state isn't going to go extinct because Hamas is sending volleys of rockets to their doom and useless end.
Israel wants the extinction of Hamas as much as Hamas wants Israel's extinction, the only difference is Israel's attacks don't end in useless boom's, they take down 12 story buildings with civilians in them as well. They take out UN supported shelters filled with women, seniors, and children. And once in a blue moon they actually take out a leader of Hamas.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

And this is exactly what keeps the israel and palestine conflict rolling

Re: All things Middle East related
 

"as far back as 2008" so, how often should they be invaded and bombed out? every 6 years isn't soon enough for you? 3 israeli lives are worth an invasion and 1300+ lives in palestine (palestinian territories)?

i'm not saying hamas is right or good or anything like that. i think you're viewing this issue too emotionally though, cause nothing you posted is new or refutes anything i've said.

and it's nice that they're giving warning, but again, there are still plenty of misidentified targets leading to lots of civilian collateral damage, which has been evident.

add to that the encroachment and seizing of land that they have no legal right to (the settlements) and whose displaced owners are not compensated, and it's creates an endless circle of grievances.


btw, what's the death toll of those "indiscriminate Palestinian rocket (and mortar) attacks?" 1300? nope. 130? no, it's 33 since 2001. that's quite a bit more than 0, which is what it should be. again, rocket attacks are bad, but the response seems like taking a sledgehammer to a thumbtack.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1080056]No offense, NCSkins, but you are an idiot if you think Gaza and the West Bank are completely divorced from each other, that the faction in the West Bank hasn't launched intifadas in the past, and things are settled in either territory.

One terrorist attack was enough for us to invade afghanistan. How many rocket attacks does it take for Isreal to say that obviously Palestinians aren't yet willing to make lasting peace like the Egyptians did?[/quote]


I think it's you that doesn't have a clue about the situation in Palestine/Israel. The fact you don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza tells me everything, and the fact you think it's ok for them to steal land (in a completely different area not even relating to the conflict) confirms that notion.

Can you tell me the last time a rocket attack came from the West Bank?

Notice you don't see Israel stealing Egypt's land. How much peace do you think there will be if Israel starts trying to take land in Lebanon or Egypt?


Here is some more information I suggest you read so you can be informed.

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14630174]BBC News - Palestinian territories profile - Overview[/url]


[quote]Separate factions

The Fatah faction of the PLO ran the PNA until 2006, when Hamas won a majority in Legislative Council elections. Uneasy co-existence between PNA President Mahmoud Abbas and a Hamas-led government led to violence between armed wings of Fatah and Hamas, culminating in Hamas seizing power in Gaza in June 2007 and President Abbas dismissing the government. [/quote]


They are supposedly trying to work out a unified government via this deal they agreed to in April, but I don't see it happening really.

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27128902]BBC News - Hamas and Fatah unveil Palestinian reconciliation deal[/url]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1080109]I think it's you that doesn't have a clue about the situation in Palestine/Israel. The fact you don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza tells me everything, and the fact you think it's ok for them to steal land (in a completely different area not even relating to the conflict) confirms that notion.

Can you tell me the last time a rocket attack came from the West Bank?

Notice you don't see Israel stealing Egypt's land. How much peace do you think there will be if Israel starts trying to take land in Lebanon or Egypt?


Here is some more information I suggest you read so you can be informed.

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14630174]BBC News - Palestinian territories profile - Overview[/url]

They are supposedly trying to work out a unified government via this deal they agreed to in April, but I don't see it happening really.

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27128902]BBC News - Hamas and Fatah unveil Palestinian reconciliation deal[/url][/quote]Re-read what I posted, NCSkins, so you don't look so foolish next time. Where the hell did you get the warped idea that I don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza?

But thanks for posting links that the two territories are trying to work together.

If Eygpt started rocket attacks on Israel, how peaceful do you think things there would be?

When you get more informed, maybe we can have a more productive discussion. Right now you are lagging way behind the times.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1080087]Sometimes, I think the warnings are just an additional psychological warfare.
A) it reinforces the fact that the Palestinians can't stop it, which is humiliating and degrading
B) it rarely affords enough time for true evacuations, so you have x number of minutes waiting whether or not the bombs will come. For example they demolished a 12 story building a few weeks ago with 15 minute warning. I am sure that the Palestinians had plenty of time from that to have an orderly and systematic exit from their residence. Heck, I evacuate all my belongings in 10minutes every other Saturday - just for fun [/sarc]

I mean imagine a burglar so confident that he was untouchable that he tells you he is going to come in, take all your money and kill your wife in 20 minutes. You would do everything you could to make sure he couldn't. But suppose he had done it to every other house in your neighborhood, and never been stopped, or arrested. Then maybe you just feel terror that it's happening to you this time. And maybe if a group of people tell you, we can't stop the burglar but we could hurt his family, or his community, maybe you don't consider it as wrong to support that group as an outside viewer might. Maybe you just want vengeance and outsiders that don't even share your basic life views can piss in the wind.
Maybe.[/quote]Lol. Nice spin, that warnings are bad. You should start a political career.

Sure, the Israelis should give a week's notice. Give plenty of time for Palestinians to call U Haul, arrange to turn off the utilities, etc. It's not like this is a shooting war or anything.

Oh, wait, the Palestinians' own government has recommended they ignore the warnings.

So, what do you recommend the Israelis do? Bear in mind everything done already in the past.

Your analogy is flawed. The homeowner in your example has pledged death to a group of people worshiping a different god than him. And has fired wildly at said people across the street. But sure, it's the people across the street that are bad for not giving enough warning, before firing back. Right?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1080151]Lol. Nice spin, that warnings are bad. You should start a political career.

Sure, the Israelis should give a week's notice. Give plenty of time for Palestinians to call U Haul, arrange to turn off the utilities, etc. It's not like this is a shooting war or anything.

Oh, wait, the Palestinians' own government has recommended they ignore the warnings.

So, what do you recommend the Israelis do? Bear in mind everything done already in the past.

[B]Your analogy is flawed. The homeowner in your example has pledged death to a group of people worshiping a different god than him. And has fired wildly at said people across the street. But sure, it's the people across the street that are bad for not giving enough warning, before firing back.[/B] Right?[/quote]
Sorry, but this goes for both sides. [LIST][*]They both hate each other, [*]They both worship a different God [*]They both believe the other side should be abolished (Israel being under the Talmud, not accepting the New Testament, would believe that they have to wipe everyone out just as the example of Jericho that I posted earlier displayed) [*]They both fire across the street, [*]One side has a relatively impenetrable defense, and has lost nearly no innocents in the last 15 years[*]One side can't protect themselves from attack, and has lost thousands of innocents over the last 15 years.[/LIST]Of course they recommend to ignore the warnings. THEY CAN'T PROTECT THEMSELVES ANYWAYS. Look through some psych warfare ops, and through books on domination. There are psychological and emotional attacks far more crippling then a rocket, especially when used on mass targets. Helplessness, and control play a large part in all of that. I will admit that I am kind of fascinated by this subject right now, and have looked into basic books on it, so I am certainly keen to see that perspective, BUT, that said, when you look at it from that angle, the warnings, soft bombs, et al, very easily fit that pattern of warfare.


One internet argument I hate, is so what should x do. I'm not sitting in the NSA war room, like JR said earlier, let me - a Redskins fan on an internet board - dictate the policies of the whole world, cuz like I'm just that good. NOT.

My point isn't to describe a new world peace path, but to point out that at the very least, attacks on innocents, by all sides, should be held to judgement and international outrage. And if the Hamas total innocent deaths were 30, and Israel's were thousands, I would be saying that Hamas should be condemned. I did say that in the late 90's. But now, Hamas attacks are as ineffective as throwing stones against a Giant, well if you aren't Israel - that strategy works for them.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1080149]Re-read what I posted, NCSkins, so you don't look so foolish next time. Where the hell did you get the warped idea that I don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza?

But thanks for posting links that the two territories are trying to work together.

If Eygpt started rocket attacks on Israel, how peaceful do you think things there would be?

When you get more informed, maybe we can have a more productive discussion. Right now you are lagging way behind the times.[/quote]


You still have avoided that fact that Israel had planned to steal land from the Palestinians that weren't even involved in the Gaza conflict.

LOL. I'll just laugh at the rhetoric you just spewed. It was obvious by your comment trying to justify Israel's land grab because you thought it was some concession for the Gaza conflict. (as noted in your quote)

[quote]That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit. [/quote]

Since no rockets or attacks have come from the West Bank, exactly how is it you see Israel has a right to land grab from the West Bank?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1080159]You still have avoided that fact that Israel had planned to steal land from the Palestinians that weren't even involved in the Gaza conflict.

LOL. I'll just laugh at the rhetoric you just spewed. It was obvious by your comment trying to justify Israel's land grab because you thought it was some concession for the Gaza conflict. (as noted in your quote)



Since no rockets or attacks have come from the West Bank, exactly how is it you see Israel has a right to land grab from the West Bank?[/quote]NCSkins, you're displaying your ignorance again. If a direct link is what you need, here you go:

[URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/30/bodies-missing-israeli-teenagers-found-west-bank"]Monday 30 June 2014 - Bodies of three missing Israeli teenagers found in West Bank

Naftali Frankel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach were kidnapped while hitchhiking back from their religious schools[/URL]

And the land isn't stolen, it's been in dispute. Guess which side would rather launch rockets than make a permanent peace deal?

Like I said, you are way behind recent events, NCSkins. Quit while you are behind.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1080155]Sorry, but this goes for both sides. [LIST][*]They both hate each other, [*]They both worship a different God [*]They both believe the other side should be abolished (Israel being under the Talmud, not accepting the New Testament, would believe that they have to wipe everyone out just as the example of Jericho that I posted earlier displayed) [*]They both fire across the street, [*]One side has a relatively impenetrable defense, and has lost nearly no innocents in the last 15 years[*]One side can't protect themselves from attack, and has lost thousands of innocents over the last 15 years.[/LIST]Of course they recommend to ignore the warnings. THEY CAN'T PROTECT THEMSELVES ANYWAYS. Look through some psych warfare ops, and through books on domination. There are psychological and emotional attacks far more crippling then a rocket, especially when used on mass targets. Helplessness, and control play a large part in all of that. I will admit that I am kind of fascinated by this subject right now, and have looked into basic books on it, so I am certainly keen to see that perspective, BUT, that said, when you look at it from that angle, the warnings, soft bombs, et al, very easily fit that pattern of warfare.


One internet argument I hate, is so what should x do. I'm not sitting in the NSA war room, like JR said earlier, let me - a Redskins fan on an internet board - dictate the policies of the whole world, cuz like I'm just that good. NOT.

My point isn't to describe a new world peace path, but to point out that at the very least, attacks on innocents, by all sides, should be held to judgement and international outrage. And if the Hamas total innocent deaths were 30, and Israel's were thousands, I would be saying that Hamas should be condemned. I did say that in the late 90's. But now, Hamas attacks are as ineffective as throwing stones against a Giant, well if you aren't Israel - that strategy works for them.[/quote]Gee, why did Isreal withdraw from Gaza, rather than push the Palestinians into the sea?

So are you really saying Jericho being sacked over a thousand years ago equals this:

[URL="http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm"]On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



The Call to Jihad:

------------------

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)



'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses

everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the

call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will

reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is

achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.'

(Article 33)



Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

-------------------------------------------

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)



Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

----------------------------------------------

'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle

[against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The

Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar

agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)
[/URL]

The rest of your argument is equally bunk. Since when does winning a military confrontation automatically invalidate itself?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

At some point in internet arguments it becomes obvious that one is banging his head. That post was that point. I acknowledged Hamas wants to destroy Israel, yet you emphasize that when no one disagrees with that part of your premise. You refuse to see Israel as equally so motivated fine, I say that we live in a world where Israel is surrounded by Egypt and Jordan who would intervene if Israel had ever pushed Palestinians into the sea. So instead they kill as many innocents as they can and still have you and others so blinded touting their virtues.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1080168]NCSkins, you're displaying your ignorance again. If a direct link is what you need, here you go:

[URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/30/bodies-missing-israeli-teenagers-found-west-bank"]Monday 30 June 2014 - Bodies of three missing Israeli teenagers found in West Bank

Naftali Frankel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach were kidnapped while hitchhiking back from their religious schools[/URL]

And the land isn't stolen, it's been in dispute. Guess which side would rather launch rockets than make a permanent peace deal?

Like I said, you are way behind recent events, NCSkins. Quit while you are behind.[/quote]


You are grasping at straws. Big time.

So how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank. You STILL haven't answered that question yet.

In fact, you've side stepped and posted about the 3 teenagers murdered. Also, the teenagers killed is another fiasco that the Israeli government knew they were dead, yet acted as if they were still "missing" and used that to roam through the Palestinian villages breaking into people's homes and arresting people. (that had nothing to do with it)

Back to the story. How many rockets have been fired from the West Bank by the Palestinian Fatah?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1080177]You are grasping at straws. Big time.

So how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank. You STILL haven't answered that question yet.

In fact, you've side stepped and posted about the 3 teenagers murdered. Also, the teenagers killed is another fiasco that the Israeli government knew they were dead, yet acted as if they were still "missing" and used that to roam through the Palestinian villages breaking into people's homes and arresting people. (that had nothing to do with it)

Back to the story. How many rockets have been fired from the West Bank by the Palestinian Fatah?[/quote]Grasping at what straws? You have blatantly engaged in a strawman argument here. Why are you asking me how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank? Have I ever said rockets were fired from the West Bank? Are YOU confused which is the West Bank and which is Gaza Strip?

You did ask me if any rocket or other attacks had been launched from West Bank. I told you about one: 3 murdered teens found dead just recently. And yes, it was a terrorist act. [URL="http://www.newsweek.com/senior-hamas-official-claims-organisation-responsible-kidnapping-israeli-teenagers-266070"]LINK[/URL]

And oh, look. Hamas claimed responsibility, even though the teens were kidnapped on the West Bank.

Where the hell did you get the idea that the Israeli government already knew the teens were dead, while they were searching for them? Citation or link needed.

I have sidestepped nothing. You tried a blatant strawman argument, and displayed some pretty lazy ignorance on your part, on this issue.



BTW - Lost in the stupidity in some arguments this thread, just to bring up something I and CRedskinsRule seem to have forgotten about the warnings Israel gives before targeting buildings. The Israelis are targeting buildings where they think Hamas is hiding weapons. Buildings that Hamas has hid weapons like homes, schools, tunnels (built with how much construction material?). Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move all the weapons out would be pretty dumb.

edit 2: Another thin, CRedskinsrule. Interesting point about psychological warfare being used this conflict. Like the rockets Hamas has been firing a long time, despite the Israelis doing a pretty good job of minimizing casualties. Another aspect of Hamas' attacks that shouldn't get overlooked this discussion. Kinda sad, that Israel warning residents to evacuate from imminent attack, and Hamas firing indiscriminately at Isrealis, might be considered morally equivalent, but I guess if you blur your focus enough, everything looks the same. Kind of like saying we were as bad in Iraq as ISIS is now. Both groups blow up buildings and shoot people too. Or should finer distinctions be drawn?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1080199]...Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move all the weapons out would be pretty dumb.[/quote]

I am trying to be done, but this statements goes directly to the heart of the warnings being more for psych warfare than effective warning. Any effective warning would give the terrorist segment of the area time to flee (and they would be the most able to flee, leaving only innocents behind).

I don't know about anyone else, but I am not making Hamas out to be some sainted organization that is simply misunderstood. Their roots are founded in terrorism. AND I can certainly accept that Hamas bears some level (not 100%, but not 0 either) of accountability for the civilian deaths. But Israel needs to be accountable for it's acts too, and while the enemy is hiding bombs among civilians, that too seems to be an obvious given when you factor in the size of the region, the general support for palestinian organizations vs support for the israeli state, and the limited isolated areas in gaza. It's not like they have a Hamas Air Force Base, just outside of the population centers. (If they did, Israel would have destroyed it, and I would accept that as a consequence of battle)

And I don't maintain that it is an easy undertaking for Israel, but I DO maintain citing random ineffective rocket launches, which in 15 years have done little in the way of effective attacks, as somehow a valid rationale for launching attacks over those same 15 years that have killed and wounded 10's of 1000's of innocents, and minimal military gains, is much closer to mass murder, and not remotely something that can be cited as a military victory.

I will try to put my position (what would I, the fat internet redskin fan that spends far too much time debating topics I can never impact, do):
As the US, I would tell Israel the Gaza airstrikes need to stop immediately, restitution and rebuilding for UN and obvious civilian buildings, ie schools and senior housing, would come out of US aid to Israel. I would put a motion for a 2 state solution before the UN Charter immediately, and set up UN peacekeeping forces to monitor all borders. I would make it clear that the US position is that both Palestinian and Israel have a right to exist, and must find a way to acknowledge peaceful coexistence. I would seek Russian, Chinese, Jordanian, and Egyptian agreement on these principles. I would put forward a no tolerance proposal for a joint tribunal in Jerusalem consisting of 2 Israeli, 2 Palestinian and 3 neutral (Swiss, Chinese, and/or South African/German delegations) arbitrator where all "war crime" type acts, terrorist kidnappings, bombing of civilian schools, etc will be brought forward. Punishment would be determined by the law governing the victim(s). All of these things would be presented to Egypt and Israel as conditions for accepting US Aid in the future.
Further, if Israel refuses to buy in, we let them know that we will abstain from any future security council votes on Israel's right to exist, and at the same time we let Hamas/Palestinian organizations know that with their buy in, we will sponsor an equivalent right to exist act in the UN Security council as Israel currently has.

See solved, and all I had to do was stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1080201]... [The Hamas] roots are founded in terrorism. ...[/quote]

You mean like the Israelis? I mean, it worked for Menachim Begin, why not the Hamas?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1080201]I am trying to be done, but this statements goes directly to the heart of the warnings being more for psych warfare than effective warning. Any effective warning would give the terrorist segment of the area time to flee (and they would be the most able to flee, leaving only innocents behind). [/quote]Sorry I wasn't clear. I said "Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move [B][U]all the weapons [/U][/B]out would be pretty dumb." But this does bring up another macabre point. Who is making innocents stay behind in these buildings, after warnings have been issued?

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1080201]I don't know about anyone else, but I am not making Hamas out to be some sainted organization that is simply misunderstood. Their roots are founded in terrorism. AND I can certainly accept that Hamas bears some level (not 100%, but not 0 either) of accountability for the civilian deaths. But Israel needs to be accountable for it's acts too, and while the enemy is hiding bombs among civilians, that too seems to be an obvious given when you factor in the size of the region, the general support for palestinian organizations vs support for the israeli state, and the limited isolated areas in gaza. It's not like they have a Hamas Air Force Base, just outside of the population centers. (If they did, Israel would have destroyed it, and I would accept that as a consequence of battle) [/quote]When Hamas gets to the extreme of telling its supposed people to ignore the warnings, that's beyond mere consequences, that's direct responsibility for deaths as much as the guys dropping the missiles.

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1080201]And I don't maintain that it is an easy undertaking for Israel, but I DO maintain citing random ineffective rocket launches, which in 15 years have done little in the way of effective attacks, as somehow a valid rationale for launching attacks over those same 15 years that have killed and wounded 10's of 1000's of innocents, and minimal military gains, is much closer to mass murder, and not remotely something that can be cited as a military victory.[/quote]I'm sure to the people being attacked both sides of the border, it's a military matter. Who says the rockets are ineffective, now that the Psy Ops aspect has been brought up? And which side is making an effort to reduce civilian casualties, while trying to strike at actual combatants?

Closer to mass murder? Than what? And which side are you accusing, the side that murders opposing factions and suspected informants. Or the first world military that takes more steps to reduce civilian casualties than we did in Iraq?

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1080201]I will try to put my position (what would I, the fat internet redskin fan that spends far too much time debating topics I can never impact, do):
As the US, I would tell Israel the Gaza airstrikes need to stop immediately, restitution and rebuilding for UN and obvious civilian buildings, ie schools and senior housing, would come out of US aid to Israel. I would put a motion for a 2 state solution before the UN Charter immediately, and set up UN peacekeeping forces to monitor all borders. I would make it clear that the US position is that both Palestinian and Israel have a right to exist, and must find a way to acknowledge peaceful coexistence. I would seek Russian, Chinese, Jordanian, and Egyptian agreement on these principles. I would put forward a no tolerance proposal for a joint tribunal in Jerusalem consisting of 2 Israeli, 2 Palestinian and 3 neutral (Swiss, Chinese, and/or South African/German delegations) arbitrator where all "war crime" type acts, terrorist kidnappings, bombing of civilian schools, etc will be brought forward. Punishment would be determined by the law governing the victim(s). All of these things would be presented to Egypt and Israel as conditions for accepting US Aid in the future.
Further, if Israel refuses to buy in, we let them know that we will abstain from any future security council votes on Israel's right to exist, and at the same time we let Hamas/Palestinian organizations know that with their buy in, we will sponsor an equivalent right to exist act in the UN Security council as Israel currently has.

See solved, and all I had to do was stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.[/quote]Israel bought into all the above. They just aren't going to surrender everything until the side that rejected an Egyptian proposed ceasefire, uses said UN buildings to store weapons, and keeps indiscriminately shooting rockets over the border, starts buying into it.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

amazing...

I'm out

Re: All things Middle East related
 

can we change the title to the thread "all things middle east retarded"

Re: All things Middle East related
 

again,

deaths to palestine rockets/mortars since 2001: 33
palestinian deaths due to israeli invasion since july 2014: 1340+
number of palestinians in israeli jails: 7000

years since last invasion of palestine: almost 6

majority of rocket attacks aren't even from hamas. (and again hamas isn't a great thing).

land grabbed by israel without compensation: a lot

israel was founded by terrorists. the arabs got along well with the brits etc, then (future israeli leadership) started a mad bombing campaign and the brits didn't want to put up with it any more, so they left. the palestinians weren't exactly pleased that the allied powered gave away their land without ever talking to them about it though.

been an issue ever since.

and saying israeli is doing more to eliminate civilian casualties than the US did in iraq is you just making things up. the main killer of iraqis was other iraqis, and that was a conflict where both sides had actual armies and there were lots of independent standing militias. i don't know why you keep harping on those warnings, cause the death toll is pretty terrible and one sided, so i don't see how dropping some paper can allow you to call it perfectly justified.

then you go on to talk about random quotes from hamas (which is not the unified voice of palestinians) as if that also somehow justifies 1300+ dead palestinians in the last 2 months... which is 608,400% more deaths per month than the rocket/mortar attacks (and that's only from the current action, not counting ANYTHING from the last 13 years).

let's get real.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1080256]again,

deaths to palestine rockets/mortars since 2001: 33
palestinian deaths due to israeli invasion since july 2014: 1340+
number of palestinians in israeli jails: 7000
[/quote]

You see this quite often... it implies that because a side is technologically inferior to another, the dominating side has to just take shit from them.

the terrorists we've been fighting are equally as inferior, and the ratio of kills to deaths is much more in our favor.

would you agree with the implication that it is us doing something wrong?

i'm not exactly a pro-Israeli person, I'm really not. But when you choose to shoot rockets into another country and you get your ass kicked for it then you deserve what you got. the fact that their rockets aren't as good as the other guys is irrelevant in my opinion.