If the extension to the CBA can't get done, then what?
 

So if the CBA is not done by friday march 3rd what will the Redskins have to do? I have seen that the Redskins are 21 million over the cape. Who will be cut or how will we get below that! I saw VP of football operations V.Cerrato say the if the is no CBA the the team[Redskins] would do most of thier player acquisitions in the draft not free agency! That kind of cape short fall is no small matter! A new WR or what ever seems way off!!! We will be lucky to keep what we have on the team now.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

already being discussed in multiple threads on both the (non) progress of CBA talks and salary cap analysis...

beyond projected cuts, starters would have to go. 10-12million is easy to toss, beyond that its cutting good players or having people actually give back real money.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]already being discussed in multiple threads on both the (non) progress of CBA talks and salary cap analysis...

beyond projected cuts, starters would have to go. 10-12million is easy to toss, beyond that its cutting good players or having people actually give back real money.[/QUOTE]

I see something being said about it but not about if a deal is not made! So lets say you are right and the projected cuts are made and some money is redone in player contracts that leaves us a long way from 0 cape short fall. What I was trying to say who do you think would be let go along with the projected cuts? Isn't it right to say that this all needs to be done by march 3rd?

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=RedskinPete]I see something being said about it but not about if a deal is not made! So lets say you are right and the projected cuts are made and some money is redone in player contracts that leaves us a long way from 0 cape short fall. What I was trying to say who do you think would be let go along with the projected cuts? Isn't it right to say that this all needs to be done by march 3rd?[/QUOTE]

it could be pushed back... you can look at the cap sheets to see some examples... but guys like brunell would cosst 300k to cut, jacobs (who not only sucks, but is also a huge pansy) only saves 117k to cut (and rookie vet min is 230k, meaning that keeping him is the cheapest way to fill that roster spot).

bowen, harris, noble, ramsey, raymer, hall, tupa (who may still have years left, but is expensive and lost last season to IR), among others... beyond that, wynn would save 396k, thrash would save 875k.

guys that you'd like to keep that could save money (and this is why its a big problem, look how little you save with each starter you cut):
jansen: 800k
samuels: 300k
M washington: 500k
P daniels: 800k
patten: 650k
rabach: 1.15mill
prioleau: 550k
salave'a: 500k
betts: 550k
lemar marshall: 400k
sellers: 500k
dockery: 460k
cooley: 220k

and that's about it... there's some nobodies that can be ditched for much younger nobodies to save 100-200k per roster spot, but making up the difference with the tiny amount of savings made by cutting starters is going to be harsh... you have to cut down even more to have space to sign rookies from the draft, and we're going to need them. Maybe we'll have to have a fire sale for draft picks :/ cause its kinda hard to make 8million pop out of that list up there.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

we can get decent #4 type WRs undrafted (D quillien etc) an a great punter (sam koch)... there' only one kicker that's decent and he'll be drafted, though next year 2 amazing kickers are coming out (one is absolutely insane and has made something like 4/6 57+ yard FGs)

of course, no CBA and decertification of the player's union means federal anti-trust charges are leveled at the NFL and if a new union can't be convinced to form, the draft and non guaranteed contracts may be history.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

hmm.... hey guys, i think if the CBA really does fail, we're going to be in it REALLY deep.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]hmm.... hey guys, i think if the CBA really does fail, we're going to be in it REALLY deep.[/QUOTE]
For 2006 I would agree, but moving forward in an uncapped environment, is there an owner that you would rather root for than Daniel Snyder? Who is going to out-spend him? Hopefully Gibbs will temper some of his outrageous spending (see 2000 & 2002) and make smart roster choices. I seriously doubt the owners will let it get to an uncapped system.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

It's simple, with no CBA the Skins are gonna have to cut quite a few guys and do some major restructures.

Should be an interesting week leading up to March 3rd.

Here's a question though, could the Skins cut a player and then immmediately re-sign them? There must be something that wouldn't allow that I would guess.

I'm thinking that if the Skins do have to cut a bunch of guys, they'll try to re-sign some of them as soon as possible.

This [url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=11150"]article[/url] from the Post sums things up pretty well

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

What's really interesting about this is that if 2007 is uncapped then players could restructure and then not have to worrry about being cut based on their cap #. Come 07 it won't matter, that would be odd.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

I really think they'll work something out at the last minute, or extend the deadline to get things done. I just can't see the NFL going uncapped, but we'll see.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]it could be pushed back... you can look at the cap sheets to see some examples... but guys like brunell would cosst 300k to cut, jacobs (who not only sucks, but is also a huge pansy) only saves 117k to cut (and rookie vet min is 230k, meaning that keeping him is the cheapest way to fill that roster spot).

bowen, harris, noble, ramsey, raymer, hall, tupa (who may still have years left, but is expensive and lost last season to IR), among others... beyond that, wynn would save 396k, thrash would save 875k.

guys that you'd like to keep that could save money (and this is why its a big problem, look how little you save with each starter you cut):
jansen: 800k
samuels: 300k
M washington: 500k
P daniels: 800k
patten: 650k
rabach: 1.15mill
prioleau: 550k
salave'a: 500k
betts: 550k
lemar marshall: 400k
sellers: 500k
dockery: 460k
cooley: 220k

and that's about it... there's some nobodies that can be ditched for much younger nobodies to save 100-200k per roster spot, but making up the difference with the tiny amount of savings made by cutting starters is going to be harsh... you have to cut down even more to have space to sign rookies from the draft, and we're going to need them. Maybe we'll have to have a fire sale for draft picks :/ cause its kinda hard to make 8million pop out of that list up there.[/QUOTE]
Those sound like release fees. Thats what we have to pay not save. We would save what their contract pays this year, but i could be wrong.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

Doesn't it depend on what agreements are met just as much as 1 being made?

Yet cba is through next season so how does that change our situation now anyway?:insane: :censored:

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]It's simple, with no CBA the Skins are gonna have to cut quite a few guys and do some major restructures.

Should be an interesting week leading up to March 3rd.

Here's a question though, could the Skins cut a player and then immmediately re-sign them? There must be something that wouldn't allow that I would guess.

I'm thinking that if the Skins do have to cut a bunch of guys, they'll try to re-sign some of them as soon as possible.

This [url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=11150"]article[/url] from the Post sums things up pretty well[/QUOTE]

you can't cause the players wont go for it. The skins would have to eat thier release fee AND pay them a new contract with bonus on top of it. All they can do is hope that some players will literally give back money promised to them for both 2006 and probably 2007 as well (cause of the 30% rule).

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=44deisel44]Doesn't it depend on what agreements are met just as much as 1 being made?

Yet cba is through next season so how does that change our situation now anyway?:insane: :censored:[/QUOTE]

extensive rules on the year before a dead cba exist so teams can't just give everyone 1$ contracts this year and 20mill$ next year.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=44deisel44]Those sound like release fees. Thats what we have to pay not save. We would save what their contract pays this year, but i could be wrong.[/QUOTE]

no, the release fees are up to 5million for the guys i listed, those figures are (release fees - 2006 salary = savings). marcus washignton for example, counts 5.162mill against the skins cap in 2006 (even though he only makes 1.5mill base salary), but releasing him would cost 4.6mill on the cap, saving an amazing 500k :P

signing bonus proration etc are all screwed up due to being so close to an expiring cba. If a new cba gets done, re-working all the bonuses to pro-rate over the entire reamaining length of the contract will save a ton of room. right now that can't be done though.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]no, the release fees are up to 5million for the guys i listed, those figures are (release fees - 2006 salary = savings). marcus washignton for example, counts 5.162mill against the skins cap in 2006 (even though he only makes 1.5mill base salary), but releasing him would cost 4.6mill on the cap, saving an amazing 500k :P

signing bonus proration etc are all screwed up due to being so close to an expiring cba. If a new cba gets done, re-working all the bonuses to pro-rate over the entire reamaining length of the contract will save a ton of room. right now that can't be done though.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Guy! You helped me out alot.........can't say you cheered me up............
But thanx. :biggthump

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=44deisel44], but i could be [size=3]wrong[/size].[/QUOTE]:rofl: [size=3]cousin [/size]bite your toungue ,did i understand you correctly you could be [size=3]what [/size]???Looks like we'll be depending on coaching and paying lots of cap :oink: penalties

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]you can't cause the players wont go for it. The skins would have to eat thier release fee AND pay them a new contract with bonus on top of it. All they can do is hope that some players will literally give back money promised to them for both 2006 and probably 2007 as well (cause of the 30% rule).[/QUOTE]

but if there's no cap why would the Skins care about paying all that extra $$?

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]but if there's no cap why would the Skins care about paying all that extra $$?[/QUOTE]

i must misunderstand what your asking... i thought you ment cutting them now and resigning them right away... you mean cutting them now and resigning them in 2007 after they've been picked up by other teams?

please clarify.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]i must misunderstand what your asking... i thought you ment cutting them now and resigning them right away... you mean cutting them now and resigning them in 2007 after they've been picked up by other teams?

please clarify.[/QUOTE]

I meant cut them now and then sign them again right away, I thought I saw an article somewhere that mentioned this possibility.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=44deisel44]Thanks Guy! You helped me out alot.........can't say you cheered me up............
But thanx. :biggthump[/QUOTE]

That Guy's post actually did cheer me up. The post shows that key players (i.e. Marcus Washington) won't be cut because it wouldn't help us to do so.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I meant cut them now and then sign them again right away, I thought I saw an article somewhere that mentioned this possibility.[/QUOTE]

So create a contract that basically pays them the minimum based on their experience in 2006 and pays an insane amount in the uncapped 2007 year?

I don't know as much as I would like an uncapped year we can't lose guys like Jansen and Washington.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

I took a long and hard look at the salary cap (the cap figures and the release fees) and have realized that if a CBA doesn't get done, we are totally toast. I have no clue where the money is going to come from. We better hope that Shawn Springs can also play wide receiver, Santana Moss can also play corner, and Clinton Portis can play defensive end, because we're going to be strapped.

I am wrong about a lot of things, but I was dead on in saying for years now that our cap problems were going to come back to haunt us. If the CBA gets renewed, then I will be wrong. But, right now it's unfortunately looking like I am going to be right. 2006 might be the most painful year in our franchise's history (as it will be effectively demolished).

We can cut out roughly $13 million of cap space by cutting guys like Bowen, Wynn, Harris, Ramsey, etc. But, my problem is finding a way to cut out the additional $7-10 million that we will need in order to get under the cap and save room to sign rookies. We can either start axing key guys like Jansen (in his case it would save roughly 500K) or we can reduce our roster to about 40 players. In either case, we are going to have a tough time fielding a good starting lineup, let alone a complete roster with adequate depth.

People might be interested to note that if 2007 is in fact an uncapped year, the free agent pool will be far more limited than in years past. Under the current deal, players are eligible for unrestricted free agency after four years. In 2007, players will be unrestricted for free agency only if they have played six seasons. Thus, the players who will hit the market in 2007 will likely be older and fewer in number.

Plus, when you factor in (1) that the NFLPA is threatening to strike in 2008 in no CBA extension is reached and (2) that our team would likely lose key guys this offseason, it is unclear how anyone would think that our franchise would benefit from the lack of an extension.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]It's simple, with no CBA the Skins are gonna have to cut quite a few guys and do some major restructures.

Should be an interesting week leading up to March 3rd.

Here's a question though, could the Skins cut a player and then immmediately re-sign them? There must be something that wouldn't allow that I would guess.

I'm thinking that if the Skins do have to cut a bunch of guys, they'll try to re-sign some of them as soon as possible.

This [url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=11150"]article[/url] from the Post sums things up pretty well[/QUOTE]

I had been wondering something a bit similar Matty. I was wondering if, for example, Brunell could "retire" then unretire later on this summer.

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

i picked "The team will suffer in 2006, but benefit in 2007 "

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

You guys got to remember. If there is no CBA extension by 3/1/06 they still have until 3/1/07 to avoid an uncapped year and extend the agreement. If Upshaw and the players really wanted to get rid of the cap they wouldn't be working to extend it. It looks more and more like it could be worse case scenario for the Skins which would be ripping up the team to get under by 3/1 and then sometime after comes an extension to the cap avoiding an uncapped year and ending the possibility of an uncapped league. I think both sides do well with the cap and it might bring the drop dead date of 3/1/07 to bring about a settlement. Be thankful you have a great coaching staff that may be able to overcome lack of depth by coaching up the players they can afford although this is not Gibbs preferred style[he likes his vets]....

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

Pocono,

My understanding is that Upshaw has said that if the deal is not renewed this year, it will not be renewed next year. I don't think he's just bluffing because he has stated as much categorically numerous times. He would lose tremendous face and negotiating power were he to reneg on his explicit statements.

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Pocono,

My understanding is that Upshaw has said that if the deal is not renewed this year, it will not be renewed next year. I don't think he's just bluffing because he has stated as much categorically numerous times. He would lose tremendous face and negotiating power were he to reneg on his explicit statements.[/QUOTE]

He's a union boss so he doesn't have any "face" to save.....His job is to say whatever benefits his membership the most. He'd like the deal now because the % of DGR actually drops in the final capped year so his union is getting a 1% smaller piece of the pie than last year

2. [b]Salary Cap Percentages[/b] The Salary Cap percentage shall be as follows:



[center][i]old[/i]

[i]new[/i]
[/center]




2002[center]63.5%

64%
[/center]




2003[center]64%

64.25%
[/center]




2004[center]NA

64.75%
[/center]




2005[center]NA

65.5%
[/center]




2006[center]NA

64.5%
[/center]



And it would make things easier for FA's but I highly doubt they would abandon a system which has increased the amount spent per team from about 30M in 93 to 85M in 05. The cap has been very very good to players.

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

[QUOTE=Pocono]He's a union boss so he doesn't have any "face" to save.....His job is to say whatever benefits his membership the most.[/QUOTE]

Well regardless of the "face" issue, he certainly will lose negotiating power if he bluffs and is called on it. I guess we just differ about that and the degree to which Upshaw is serious about his threats. I have read or heard nothing that leads me to believe that Upshaw is really just kidding about his threats.

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

Clearly the best course of action for the skins is to go to well paid players and beg them to restructure for the sake of the team. Tell them that you have never had problems paying in the past (except with the Lavar gaff) and you don't intend to stop in the future. Please, please, please help us get under the cap we can make another run at the SB. Thank you!

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]We can cut out roughly $13 million of cap space by cutting guys like Bowen, Wynn, Harris, Ramsey, etc. But, my problem is finding a way to cut out the additional $7-10 million that we will need in order to get under the cap and save room to sign rookies. We can either start axing key guys like Jansen (in his case it would save roughly 500K) or we can reduce our roster to about 40 players. In either case, we are going to have a tough time fielding a good starting lineup, let alone a complete roster with adequate depth.
[/QUOTE]

I think John Hall is gone, as is Cory Raymer, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Big Samoan and Ladell Betts gone as well.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I think John Hall is gone, as is Cory Raymer, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Big Samoan and Ladell Betts gone as well.[/QUOTE]

My $13 million figure included axing Hall and Raymer. I just don't see where we are going to get the other $7-10 million.

I wouldn't be surprised to see either Salave'a or Betts gone. However, cutting both of them would only save roughly $1 million (looking at their salaries minus their release fees). Then we'd have to sign two guys to replace them. I doubt we'd get anyone worth looking at for $500K a pop.

If someone could come up with a list of cuts that gets us under the cap, I'd love to look at it. I spent a long while today trying to create such a list, and I can't figure out how it is going to happen.

Re: If No Deal is done when what????
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]My $13 million figure included axing Hall and Raymer. I just don't see where we are going to get the other $7-10 million.

I wouldn't be surprised to see either Salave'a or Betts gone. However, cutting both of them would only save roughly $1 million (looking at their salaries minus their release fees). Then we'd have to sign two guys to replace them. I doubt we'd get anyone worth looking at for $500K a pop.

If someone could come up with a list of cuts that gets us under the cap, I'd love to look at it. I spent a long while today trying to create such a list, and I can't figure out how it is going to happen.[/QUOTE]

Well I think as you mentioned earlier, a big problem is going to be depth. We can put in someone like Nemo (or one of those Canadians we signed) for Betts, or Aki for Salave'a. Serious drop-offs but I think that's what we'll see for this year at least. Not much depth, and pray we don't have too many injuries.

Here's another question. And I don't want to think this way, but how much do we save if Sean Taylor is spending the 2006 season in prison?

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

This could get us into the Friday Compliance. Then, they would need to work on the veterans to take pay cuts to get some guys back. I'm sure they will be working hard to have a few pay cuts worked out so some of these guys don't have to go. Yes I know that this leaves us with a skeleton roster, but I think that it may be just that come Friday.

Cap Now
116793
Bowen
2000
Harris
2000
Ramsey
1688
Noble
1700
Thrash
875
Sellars
495
Prielou
550
Betts
545
Hall
1180
Raymer
985
Tupa
601
Farris
460
Brown
460
Riley
460
Sykes
385
Carter
385
Burns
385
Johnson
385
All Mins at 310 4030
All Mins at 235 2350






94874 95000

If someone could tell me how to paste excel data in here and make it look better I would really appreciate it! It always screws up the format.

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

I will be crushed if the Big Samoan is not a Skin next year.

The only way that the Redskins can prevent a total roster demolition is if players are willing to somehow restructure their contracts so that we can comply with the 30% rule and all the other 2006 oddities. I don't know if that's possible without them taking major pay cuts so I don't know how likely it is to happen. Player's don't usually mind restructuring because it means a big chunk of up-front money in the form of a signing bonus. This time, I'm guessing they would have to make real sacrifices.

If there is no extension, all the progress that has been made over the last two years may have been wasted. We may go straight to cap jail without passing go or collecting $200.

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

[QUOTE=GoSkins!]This could get us into the Friday Compliance. Then, they would need to work on the veterans to take pay cuts to get some guys back. I'm sure they will be working hard to have a few pay cuts worked out so some of these guys don't have to go. Yes I know that this leaves us with a skeleton roster, but I think that it may be just that come Friday.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, I do not know how to paste excel spreadsheets here. As you correctly point out, cutting those guys would leave us about 20 players short of a complete roster. Plus, we need to create about $2 million in cap space to sign draft picks.

I am sure the team will get under the cap somehow. I just don't see how they can do it without dismantling the team. Hopefully, vets ... and lots of vets ... will do the uncommon and take pay cuts ... and big ones.

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

I think if there is no CBA extension we'll be in cap hell and forced to cut LaVar who should have been starting over Warrick Holdman from day one if not for the fact Dan Snyder told Joe Gibbs not to start LA because Snyder, who should hire a GM, was upset about the grievance filed by the Poston brothers who also represent Kellen Winslow II, former college teammate of Sean Taylor who could be serving 43 years in prison which will totally screw up our defense that as it is is clearly missing a pass rusher to get to the quarterback, we couldn't even get to slow moving quarterbacks like our very own Patrick Ramsey, the boy genious who was robbed of his starting job by the Gibbs-Brunell conspiracy, and would have a much easier time getting the ball deep to our 2nd and 3rd receievers, but we still need new receivers anyway, since Taylor Jacobs is a total bust and David Patten is just a product of Tom Brady's success, but maybe we should start Jason Campbell who's more of an enigma right now than question 3, if he starts we would just hand the ball to Clinton Portis who should be running more zone plays, then we could get to the Super Bowl, where the refs would conspire against us anyway, but we'd still get to eat some super happy fun pie.


There, with that run-on sentence I think I covered just about every topic ever mentioned on this site.

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I think if there is no CBA extension we'll be in cap hell and forced to cut LaVar who should have been starting over Warrick Holdman from day one if not for the fact Dan Snyder told Joe Gibbs not to start LA because Snyder, who should hire a GM, was upset about the grievance filed by the Poston brothers who also represent Kellen Winslow II, former college teammate of Sean Taylor who could be serving 43 years in prison which will totally screw up our defense that as it is is clearly missing a pass rusher to get to the quarterback, we couldn't even get to slow moving quarterbacks like our very own Patrick Ramsey, the boy genious who was robbed of his starting job by the Gibbs-Brunell conspiracy, and would have a much easier time getting the ball deep to our 2nd and 3rd receievers, but we still need new receivers anyway, since Taylor Jacobs is a total bust and David Patten is just a product of Tom Brady's success, but maybe we should start Jason Campbell who's more of an enigma right now than question 3, if he starts we would just hand the ball to Clinton Portis who should be running more zone plays, then we could get to the Super Bowl, where the refs would conspire against us anyway, but we'd still get to eat some super happy fun pie.


There, with that run-on sentence I think I covered just about every topic ever mentioned on this site.[/QUOTE]
uuuhhh yea i think that covers it

wait you might just wanna add a T.O. in there somewhere

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I think if there is no CBA extension we'll be in cap hell and forced to cut LaVar who should have been starting over Warrick Holdman from day one if not for the fact Dan Snyder told Joe Gibbs not to start LA because Snyder, who should hire a GM, was upset about the grievance filed by the Poston brothers who also represent Kellen Winslow II, former college teammate of Sean Taylor who could be serving 43 years in prison which will totally screw up our defense that as it is is clearly missing a pass rusher to get to the quarterback, we couldn't even get to slow moving quarterbacks like our very own Patrick Ramsey, the boy genious who was robbed of his starting job by the Gibbs-Brunell conspiracy, and would have a much easier time getting the ball deep to our 2nd and 3rd receievers, but we still need new receivers anyway, since Taylor Jacobs is a total bust and David Patten is just a product of Tom Brady's success, but maybe we should start Jason Campbell who's more of an enigma right now than question 3, if he starts we would just hand the ball to Clinton Portis who should be running more zone plays, then we could get to the Super Bowl, where the refs would conspire against us anyway, but we'd still get to eat some super happy fun pie.


There, with that run-on sentence I think I covered just about every topic ever mentioned on this site.[/QUOTE]

It's great someone can lighten the mood as the ship may be going down! You should have been on the Titanic. Maybe you could have been in the band? With that thought we may need to use the band to fill out the roster! The great unsinkable ship went down as 1,502 went in to the water where only six were saved. I wonder after March 3rd just how many Skins will be on the roster?

Re: If extension to the CBA is done, then what?
 

[QUOTE=steveo395]uuuhhh yea i think that covers it

wait you might just wanna add a T.O. in there somewhere[/QUOTE]

and shame on me for forgetting to throw in a Spurrier reference.