Rooting for Goliath
 

Some recent threads reacting angrily to news articles blasting the Redskins on their free agency spending inspired these thoughts.

The New York Yankees have been buying the best players in the league for 75 years. Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for Goliath.

If our free agency spending strategy leads to a dynasty, we can't expect the Redskins organization to be admired in the way that the Patriots organization has been admired in recent years. Outsmarting your opponents is thought of as being competitive within the spirit of the rules. Using your ability to outspend your opponents is considered by most to be taking an unfair advantage.

Redskins' fans are going to need to become thick-skinned about criticism of our team in the media and on the message boards of fansites across the country. Dan Snyder is their target now but, if this year's team can't cut it, we can expect some of them to develop the bravado to take some shots at the stewardship of Joe Gibbs despite his Hall of Fame reputation.

If we win, don't expect most Americans to be standing in line to congratulate us. If we lose, expect them to rejoice. It's just human nature to root against Goliath.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

everyone follows the same cap .(period)

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=BigSKINBauer]everyone follows the same cap .(period)[/quote]

On a Redskins' fansite your argument is sufficient to close the discussion. But I was talking about other fans around the league.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

its different. you can't outspend consistantly with a cap and its nearly impossible to field a team that's in the superbowl even 2 years in a row. People jab synder anyways, worst case, nothing changes... but i don't you'll see anything like the anti-yankee anti-duke stuff. Its not like we're playing by different rules or we're going to go to 10 super bowls in a row.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Huddle]On a Redskins' fansite your argument is sufficient to close the discussion. But I was talking about other fans around the league and the media.[/quote]

Edited...Huddle

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=That Guy]its different. you can't outspend consistantly with a cap and its nearly impossible to field a team that's in the superbowl even 2 years in a row. People jab synder anyways, worst case, nothing changes... but i don't you'll see anything like the anti-yankee anti-duke stuff. Its not like we're playing by different rules or we're going to go to 10 super bowls in a row.[/quote]

We have had the highest actual payroll for several seasons though...haven't we?

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Huddle]We have had the highest actual payroll for several seasons though...haven't we?[/quote]

maybe, i know we lead in 2004, but not before then. usa today hasn't posted info on 2005 or 2006, though we didn't sign many people in 2005 (patten, moss, and rabach - pretty cheap) and without huge signing bonuses, its hard to lead in payroll. I'm sure we'll lead this year, but 2005 i'd be a bit surprised.

the other side is we lead in deadcap every year, and that's definately not a good thing. next year we won't have space to hand out another 40$mill in bonuses though, so it's pretty hard to lead multiple years in a row when offseason spending is so peaked in one season.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

a win is a win is a win.to me,winning cures everything.i really dont care what other fans think

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=That Guy]maybe, i know we lead in 2004, but not before then. usa today hasn't posted info on 2005 or 2006, though we didn't sign many people in 2005 (patten, moss, and rabach - pretty cheap) and without huge signing bonuses, its hard to lead in payroll. I'm sure we'll lead this year, but 2005 i'd be a bit surprised.

the other side is we lead in deadcap every year, and that's definately not a good thing. next year we won't have space to hand out another 40$mill in bonuses though, so it's pretty hard to lead multiple years in a row when offseason spending is so peaked in one season.[/quote]

Well, our reputation for being big spenders goes back to 2000.

I was using the Yankees purely as analogy. With the cap, we cannot achieve their dominance, nevertheless we are creating a similar reputation. I'm not upset by the flack we get but others here seem to be.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

All teams have the same amount of money to spend. Some teams chose to spend it all and some don't. The joke is that you get critisized for being agressive and trying to put together a great group of players. Fact is that all those players are independant contractors and are trying to work for the most money possible. I don't think there is one team that has a player playing for nothing. Based on playoff wins and championships I'd have to say the Mannings are overpaid yet nobody seems to be critical of the Colts or the Giants.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

They key thing to remember is there is no franchise in the NFL that is incapable of turning a profit by spending up to the salary cap. The salary cap is set at such a level that even Arizona can turn a profit by spending that money. Therefore, money doesn't enter the equation with football like it does in baseball.

There are plenty of teams that whine and cry about big market teams, but the truth is they have the funds to pay for players too. Many just choose not to. So let the uninformed say what they want.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

I said it before on here, I will gladly take an owner that is not afraid to spend the $$ money on the team like Snyder does. Atleast he is trying to put a winning team on the field. Back in 2000 he didnt fair well with his spending but so what you make mistakes and learn, thats the only way to truely learn.

I would rather sit here and bitch about the media haters than bitch about an owner that wont try...

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

Goliath - shmoliath. Like NYG/NYJ, DaBears, Pats and Fish have no poplulation to draw from; paaalease. Snyder is pulling his weight...what about the other owners?

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You know, I admit that when Snyder was making all of those big spendings like Deion and so forth I was impressed that he even tried to get big name players. He was at least trying to improve his team. He could not help the fact they were out of their prime time. Since he took over we have always had a kick ass off season.The sad part was that it didn't always translate into wins. I am happy to say that with Joe Gibbs's return improvements have been made. And to the credit of the spoiled rich kid it is finally starting to work out for him. All he has ever wanted for the Skins is to bee winners, and he has proven that. He has done nothing more than any of us have done while playing Madden football. Hiring the best free agents in order for us to easier win the Super Bowl. Yet we criticize him constantly. One day all of that spent money is going to translate into a Super Bowl. So stop complaining about his open pockets, and welcome them. We will thank him later!

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

Okay, as a Red Sox fanatic, I immediataly resent any comparisons of the Redskins to the Yankees.

The reality is that you cannot compare the Redskins to any baseball team. There is no cap in baseball and so Steinbrenner can outspend other teams by twice as much if he so chooses. In football, each team is held to the same annual spending limit. Granted, you can spend creatively, but everyone in the end is allowed exactly the same amount.

What is more curious to me is the criticism of the signings. Snyder, in my opinion, just completed one of the most targeted and well conceived free agent signing periods of his ownership. He gave a lot of up front money, but the overall contracts were reasonable. And yet we have Dallas signing players like Fabini (3 years up to $7.5M) who is physically questionable at best, Owens ($10M per), who needs no description of his risks, and Ayodele (5 years $17M), who is a pure 4-3 LB to insert into a 3-4 scheme (note: Fujita had to be cast off from Dallas this offseason for the very same reason). How is it that the former poster boy for excess (Jerry Jones) has avoided the same criticisms?

Jack Kent Cooke used to spend money like he was printing it and would routinely have one of (if not THE) highest payrolls in the NFL. Yet people loved him and the Skins. Was it because he was the cantankerous old curmudgeon? And Snyder is the brash young executive? To be honest, they are a lot more alike than many recognize. Above all, both love(d) this team and they would spend whatever it took to get the talent needed to win.

The Skins have been a goliath for the past 30 years. The only thing that has changed is the media's perception of the goliath.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

didn't jerry win a SB ;)? I figure that can take some pressure off you.

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[quote=dmek25]a win is a win is a win.to me,winning cures everything.i really dont care what other fans think[/quote]

Yours is the thick-skinned attitude Redskins fans will need.

My remarks are meant for those more sensitive to criticism. We aren't going to be admired if we win; we will be laughed at if we lose. Let's get used to it.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Kope]Goliath - shmoliath. Like NYG/NYJ, DaBears, Pats and Fish have no poplulation to draw from; paaalease. Snyder is pulling his weight...what about the other owners?[/quote]

It isn't good for the league if the small market teams run losses as they did in the NHL.

Bear in mind, it's not the cap limit that counts but the actual payroll limit. Are all the owners with lower payrolls than the Redskins simply tight-fisted? Probably not.

But the real issue for Redskins' fans is not whether the criticism our team gets is fair or unfair. The point is that we are not going to be admired if we win and we'll be trashed if we have the league's highest payroll and still lose. That being the case, a thick-skinned attitude for Skins' fans works best.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

Sociofan

[QUOTE]Okay, as a Red Sox fanatic, I immediataly resent any comparisons of the Redskins to the Yankees.
[/QUOTE]

Relax. I used the Yankees as an analogy to help explain the reasons for the public attitude. The use of an analogy does not imply that its author is drawing comparisons beyond the idea presented.

[QUOTE] Jack Kent Cooke used to spend money like he was printing it and would routinely have one of (if not THE) highest payrolls in the NFL. Yet people loved him and the Skins. [/QUOTE]

Free agency makes Snyder's spending more obvious.

The Skins [U]were[/U] criticized for keeping the most players on IR year after year (there was no limit then).

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

angryssg says:

[QUOTE]Yet we criticize him [Snyder] constantly. One day all of that spent money is going to translate into a Super Bowl. So stop complaining about his open pockets, and welcome them. We will thank him later![/QUOTE]

I don't think you'll find too many Redskins fans complaining but that's not what we're talking about here.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

i live in the heart of eagle country and they despise dan snyder.they will not admit to it,but the reason is pure jealousy.year after year us redskin fans know that our owner will spend every nickel that he is allowed to put the best,most competitive team on the field.in the eagles situation,they know that their owner will try to shortcut the cap,make low ball offers to players,and really not be a major player in free agency.they are happy to be 10-12 million under the cap every year(im not sure why?)

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

I'll find the numbers later but the "cheap" eagles outspent the skins last year. The skins cannot spend money every year. OVer a course of 5 years the spend the same amount as all teams. They, however, decide to spend extra one year and less another. Just a system, no advantage. This system has yet to prove itself.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=dmek25] in the eagles situation,they know that their owner will try to shortcut the cap,make low ball offers to players,and really not be a major player in free agency.they are happy to be 10-12 million under the cap every year(im not sure why?)[/quote]

With the on-field success the Eagles have enjoyed in recent years, their fans have no reason to be unhappy. They will sing a different tune if their team suffers some lean years.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

I agree the eagles have been the beast of the east for a few years now. But that is about to change!

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they have been very lucky as far as drafting and plugging holes after some of their people left.i think their window is closing and they are heading towards the eagles of old(we all remember the years not long ago when they SUCKED)

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[quote=Huddle]With the on-field success the Eagles have enjoyed in recent years, their fans have no reason to be unhappy. They will sing a different tune if their team suffers some lean years.[/quote]

I live in the Philly suburbs, and I think what gets to the fans around here more than anything is that no pro sports team here has won a title since the Phillies in 1980. The town has been teased by the 1983 Phillies, 1993 Phillies, 2001 Sixers, and 2004 Eagles all making it to the finals and losing. They're upset because they get so close to winning it all and then lose it.

PS Nothing is better than tuning into WIP (Philly's sports talk radio station) the day after they lose a title game. Grown men call in and break down in tears over the air. Some sound like they're ready to jump off a building. It's fantastic.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Huddle]With the on-field success the Eagles have enjoyed in recent years, their fans have no reason to be unhappy. They will sing a different tune if their team suffers some lean years.[/quote]

If I were an Eagle fan I'd actually be extremely upset right now. They have major problems along both their offensive and defensive lines. They got Darren Howard which helps a lot, but they needed to do some things along the offensive line big time. They didn't land LeCharles Bentley and they didn't even try for Steve Hutchinson. They resigned Runyan which helps, but they're still going to be starting Artis Hicks, Hank Fraley, and Shawn Andrews in the interior of the line. That's terrible, considering how much cap room they have.

Eagles fans are very frustrated because they know their team is not what it once was, and yet the team isn't willing to pay for upgrades despite ample cap room. I'd be very frustrated with that too. It shows arrogance on the part of Eagles' management, they seem to be convinced that what they have on hand is good enough, and that they don't have to spend the extra money to compete. It's like they think a guard (Hutchinson) isn't worth $49 million a year. My response to that is WHO CARES WHAT IT COSTS WHEN YOU HAVE $25 MILLION IN CAP ROOM. And a lot of Eagles fans feel the same way.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Huddle]With the on-field success the Eagles have enjoyed in recent years, their fans have no reason to be unhappy. They will sing a different tune if their team suffers some lean years.[/quote]

What success? The only thing Philly cares about is finally getting a championship again......and it's a pretty bitter pill to swallow when you come up just short for four straight years and you look at your cap situation and realize that you're 15 million under the cap. Then the "what if's" start coming into play. What if they had actually spent some of that money on getting a 2nd top-rate WR, or a better pass rushing DE opposite Kearse, or keeping Trotter the first time around, or getting a stud RB, or .....

The "what if's" are neverending because the fans all know that their owner is not doing everything he can to get over that final hump. If you lose in the super bowl, and spent every last dime you had on getting the best talent available, then you can't point the finger at the greedy owner. However, if you lose in the Super Bowl in a close game with cap room left, you can't help but wonder if that cap space could have gotten you those one or two players that could have made the difference between winning and losing.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Schneed10]I live in the Philly suburbs, and I think what gets to the fans around here more than anything is that no pro sports team here has won a title since the Phillies in 1980. [/quote]

Actually, didn't the Sixers win in 1983? Your point still stands though, its been over 2 decades......the worst drought of any city with the four major sports teams.

Oh, and for the burbs, you can always count Villanova's last championship too (1985? I think). How sad is that though? Even when you throw in the colleges in the area you're still over 20 years.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Schneed10]If I were an Eagle fan I'd actually be extremely upset right now. They have major problems along both their offensive and defensive lines. They got Darren Howard which helps a lot, but they needed to do some things along the offensive line big time. They didn't land LeCharles Bentley and they didn't even try for Steve Hutchinson. They resigned Runyan which helps, but they're still going to be starting Artis Hicks, Hank Fraley, and Shawn Andrews in the interior of the line. That's terrible, considering how much cap room they have.

Eagles fans are very frustrated because they know their team is not what it once was, and yet the team isn't willing to pay for upgrades despite ample cap room. I'd be very frustrated with that too. It shows arrogance on the part of Eagles' management, they seem to be convinced that what they have on hand is good enough, and that they don't have to spend the extra money to compete. It's like they think a guard (Hutchinson) isn't worth $49 million a year. My response to that is WHO CARES WHAT IT COSTS WHEN YOU HAVE $25 MILLION IN CAP ROOM. And a lot of Eagles fans feel the same way.[/quote]

Agree 100% on all counts.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

I just know that I for one, don't give two craps or expect a congratulations from the rest of the league. A Super Bowl win for the Skins is for me and for fans of the Skins only. Other team's fans will give you excuses all day, and it doesn't make me proud when being able to talk shit to opposing team's fans. It gives me pride to be able to recount the Super Bowl win with other Skins fans.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]I just know that I for one, don't give two craps or expect a congratulations from the rest of the league. A Super Bowl win for the Skins is for me and for fans of the Skins only. Other team's fans will give you excuses all day, and it doesn't make me proud when being able to talk shit to opposing team's fans. It gives me pride to be able to recount the Super Bowl win with other Skins fans.[/quote]

Malcom's dead-on. Skins' fans are going to get it either way this season. If we do win it all, it will become in the eyes of other fans "the year the Redskins bought the Super Bowl". If we fall short, we'll be ridiculed for "The Deion Experiment pt. 2". Therefore all these fans & so-called "expert analysts" opinions mean squat to me.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Schneed10]They resigned Runyan which helps, but they're still going to be starting Artis Hicks, Hank Fraley, and Shawn Andrews in the interior of the line. That's terrible, considering how much cap room they have.
[/quote]

So why did they draft Shawn Andrews? So they could burn a top 20 pick on a guy with a weight problem, and then play him out of position because they don't need to run the ball anyway? He's a great interior pass blocker, because he doesn't need the quickness to block ends, but he's next to useless in the finesse run game (the kind they use).

Although I believe that if a team has the ability to run the ball, the defense will respect it even if they choose not to run, the Eagles DON'T have the ability to run consistently. They have to throw a high percentage of the time, and defenses know that.

Donovan McNabb, meet Andre Carter, Michael Strahan, and Demarcus Ware. You'll be seeing a lot of them this year. It's gonna be interesting to see how the guy responds to consistent pressure, something he's never had to face in his career.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=GTripp0012]So why did they draft Shawn Andrews? So they could burn a top 20 pick on a guy with a weight problem, and then play him out of position because they don't need to run the ball anyway? He's a great interior pass blocker, because he doesn't need the quickness to block ends, but he's next to useless in the finesse run game (the kind they use).

Although I believe that if a team has the ability to run the ball, the defense will respect it even if they choose not to run, the Eagles DON'T have the ability to run consistently. They have to throw a high percentage of the time, and defenses know that.

Donovan McNabb, meet Andre Carter, Michael Strahan, and Demarcus Ware. You'll be seeing a lot of them this year. It's gonna be interesting to see how the guy responds to consistent pressure, something he's never had to face in his career.[/quote]

Yeah I'd consider Andrews an average guard at this point in his career. Fraley is on the downside and Hicks just sucks. Overall it's a rough interior there. They could have used Hutchinson and Bentley.

Tra Thomas will be back healthy this year, and Runyan is back in the fold. Their tackles are definitely the strength of the line, so I think DEs aren't at the forefront of their concerns. Tra Thomas was hurt last year, that's why McNabb got pummelled so bad.

The Eagles can go pass happy when they have the protection and they have receivers who can get open and make plays (TO). But they don't have the receivers this year. The tackles are back, so pass protection should get better. But without good receivers, they're going to need to run the ball effectively at times. That interior line still isn't set up for it. They'll be better on offense this year than last, but I still see a pretty average offense, even with McNabb healthy.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Schneed10] Eagles fans are very frustrated because they know their team is not what it once was, and yet the team isn't willing to pay for upgrades despite ample cap room. I'd be very frustrated with that too. It shows arrogance on the part of Eagles' management, they seem to be convinced that what they have on hand is good enough, and that they don't have to spend the extra money to compete. It's like they think a guard (Hutchinson) isn't worth $49 million a year. My response to that is WHO CARES WHAT IT COSTS WHEN YOU HAVE $25 MILLION IN CAP ROOM. And a lot of Eagles fans feel the same way.[/quote]

Your take on the Eagles sounds like its right on the money to me with the exception of your final point about Hutchinson.

Let's say that X represents the team's payroll limit determined by the salary cap. If you overpay your roster by ten per-cent overall, you end up with a roster with a value of .9X.

If instead, you bargain-hunt for personnel and underpay your roster by ten per-cent overall, you end up with a roster with a value of 1.1X.

I think bargain hunting is the key to building the best roster in this salary cap era. Hutchinson isn't a bargain.

On the other hand, a policy of being continually under the cap doesn't cut it either.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

I honestly would rather have a superbowl than be the cheap loser in the NFL that everybody likes. I honestly would rather have an owner that spends all his money on the team rather than one that tries to horde it.

The Yankees spend lots of money and win they still have fans and the redskins spend lots of money and win some of the time but we still have fans.

While I do think there is a lot of anti-redskins sentiment out there I don't think it is as bad as we think. And even if it is so what, we are doing what we need to do to win and that is most important.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Huddle]Your take on the Eagles sounds like its right on the money to me with the exception of your final point about Hutchinson.

Let's say that X represents the team's payroll limit determined by the salary cap. If you overpay your roster by ten per-cent overall, you end up with a roster with a value of .9X.

If instead, you bargain-hunt for personnel and underpay your roster by ten per-cent overall, you end up with a roster with a value of 1.1X.

I think bargain hunting is the key to building the best roster in this salary cap era. Hutchinson isn't a bargain.[/quote]

But if you don't pay, like the eagles, you can have a very high roster value, and a not so talented roster. Which is what the eagles lack of talent thread was all about.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=GTripp0012]But if you don't pay, like the eagles, you can have a very high roster value, and a not so talented roster. Which is what the eagles lack of talent thread was all about.[/quote]

I added a line to the post you quoted before I saw yours. Naturally, to maximize the team's roster value, the money has to be spent up to the limit.

Re: rooting for Goliath
 

[quote=Huddle]Your take on the Eagles sounds like its right on the money to me with the exception of your final point about Hutchinson.

Let's say that X represents the team's payroll limit determined by the salary cap. If you overpay your roster by ten per-cent overall, you end up with a roster with a value of .9X.

If instead, you bargain-hunt for personnel and underpay your roster by ten per-cent overall, you end up with a roster with a value of 1.1X.

I think bargain hunting is the key to building the best roster in this salary cap era. Hutchinson isn't a bargain.

[B]On the other hand, a policy of being continually under the cap doesn't cut it either[/B].[/quote]

It's this last sentence that is the key here. The 1.1x and 0.9x makes the assumption that x = the salary cap limit. You're applying a salary constraint to a team that always has capacity, the Eagles don't ever take it up to that limit.

When ample salary capacity exists in your structure, there is no reason why you shouldn't go get the best player possible. Cost should not be an issue for you, you're not up against the cap constraint. So for the Eagles, whether Hutchinson is a bargain or not should not be an issue.

If we're talking about a team up against the salary cap, then player value relative to price has to enter the equation. But money should not be an object in this situation, yet the Eagles refuse to spend it, and it's easy to see why that would be frustrating.

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[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]What success? The only thing Philly cares about is finally getting a championship again.[/quote]

Still, they've had more to cheer about than the fans of 27 or 28 other teams in recent years. That's the success I was referring to.