H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

I just read a story on redskins.com:
[URL="http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=17177"]http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=17177[/URL]

In part of the story, it talks about Manuel White, Jr. relearning the fullback position in Saunders's offense instead of h-back, which he was learning last year with Gibbs's offense.

This makes me wonder if h-back as a position going to disappear in the redskins offense. In its place would be the true tight end and fullback positions.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

From what I read, in rookie camp the Skins didn't run the H-back at all.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

Wouldn't that be a major change ? H-back is the staple of a gibbs offense.

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I don't think it would be major. It's also NOT a staple of Saunder's offense.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]Wouldn't that be a major change ? H-back is the staple of a gibbs offense.[/quote]What you really want to say is, 'Is Cooley going to be omitted from the playbook?"

The anwser is no.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

Basically Cooley moves to tight end and catches passes from there...

:oink:

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

What I mean is: doesn't this change signify that Saunders will have complete control of the offensive philosophy and game-planning as opposed to "most of the control" of the offense (like jordan's 99.9% chance of not returning from retirement).

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

warriorzpath -- we've already established that Saunders has free reign of the offense. He wouldn't have come if not. Saunders has had the number 1 offense numerous times and always in the top 5. I'll let him do whatever he wants.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=Daseal]warriorzpath -- we've already established that Saunders has free reign of the offense. He wouldn't have come if not. Saunders has had the number 1 offense numerous times and always in the top 5. I'll let him do whatever he wants.[/quote]

I guess in my mind, I wasn't convinced that Saunders would be in total control of the offense. Of course I knew he could do what he wanted to do with the offense, but complete rein (sp) ? I wasn't so sure of (complete rein).

And to me, free reign and complete control are 2 different things. One being the ability to change anything you want to something, the other being yours and yours only.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

This says to me that Saunders owns the offense and gibbs has major input. Before it could have been the other way around to me. But the article has basically said that it's Saunders's offense.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath]I guess in my mind, I wasn't convinced that Saunders would be in total control of the offense. Of course I knew he could do what he wanted to do with the offense, but complete rein (sp) ? I wasn't so sure of (complete rein).

And to me, free reign and complete control are 2 different things. One being the ability to change anything you want to something, the other being yours and yours only.[/QUOTE]

I think they are basically the same thing. I mean if Saunders "can do what he wants to with the offense" then Im assuming its his.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=Warpath]I think they are basically the same thing. I mean if Saunders "can do what he wants to with the offense" then Im assuming its his.[/quote]

Semantics or not - to me it's like you being able to change what you want with my car. But at the end of the day my name is still on the title.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

I dont think it will be a complete offensive overhaul. If theres anything we dont need its that. We dont really want that. The system could have got us to the Super Bowl last year, but we ran out of gas and we ran out of WR's in the end. There will still be some Gibbs plays. He is the head coach, if he doesnt like the play he will overule it and change it to whatever he wants. I think we will see a slow transition from Gibbs offense to Saunders', until Gibbs retires when Saunders will have total control and Williams is the head coach.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

BRUNELL ran out of gas. I place that solely on him.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]BRUNELL ran out of gas. I place that solely on him.[/quote]

Well thats not fair, he was injured, and I'm sure Gibbs did not want to take a chance with Pat Ramsey

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=dirthogs311]I dont think it will be a complete offensive overhaul. If theres anything we dont need its that. We dont really want that. The system could have got us to the Super Bowl last year, but we ran out of gas and we ran out of WR's in the end. There will still be some Gibbs plays. He is the head coach, if he doesnt like the play he will overule it and change it to whatever he wants. I think we will see a slow transition from Gibbs offense to Saunders', until Gibbs retires when Saunders will have total control and Williams is the head coach.[/quote]

From just the simple reason that there will be no h-back, says to me that gibbs won't be able to overrule anything because Saunders will have complete control. Why the h-back reason ? Simply because they took away the one position that was the trademark of a gibbs offense- and how would he know more about Saunders's offense than Saunders (to overrule him) ?

I'm not saying this is a bad thing or it's going to be major transition/change (a bad choice of words earlier). But I don't think it's going to be a slow transition; it's Saunders's offense now.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=dirthogs311]Well thats not fair, he was injured, and I'm sure Gibbs did not want to take a chance with Pat Ramsey[/quote]

Sure it's not fair, but I'm entitled to my opinion. I think he should have taken himself out of the game if he knew he was going to play like that.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=dirthogs311]There will still be some Gibbs plays.[/quote]

I think there would be some Gibbs plays, if Saunders allows it or it happens to be in Saunders's playbook.

But I'm wondering: how can Gibbs really add plays or call plays without an h-back ?

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

Saunders and Gibbs branch from the same tree, so chances are the differences we see won't be too huge. I predict a bit more inspired playcalling, increased Portis and Cooley production. I wonder what our WRs will do this year, Saunders WRs never really did a whole lot.

As far as the Brunell issue goes. Im sure we can all agree when he's healthy hes a decent QB in the league. Good enough to manage games, not exactly someone I want to force to win a game (MNF Week 2 is the only one I can remember) but once Brunell gets a little nicked up he plays AWFUL, and nothing changes. That Tampa Bay playoff game made me vomit.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]BRUNELL ran out of gas. I place that solely on him.[/quote]

I say that if Randy didn't get hurt we would be there. Our run offense struggled and Brunell wouldn't have gotten hurt had there been Randy on the line. Thomas is a beast and its arguable that he is the best player on this offense, though we have Moss, Lloyd, Samuels, Cooley, and CP. Man we are going to be so fucking good next year.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

Yeah, Thomas had a LOT to do with it. He's diesel. I don't think any of us can deny though that Thomas or not, Brunell's throws were not even close in many situations.

That being said, I don't want to take ANY credit away from the year he had last year. He was one of the single reasons we played as well as we did (and one of the reasons we lost to Seattle).

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=Daseal]That Tampa Bay playoff game made me vomit.[/quote]

Yeah me too - it wasn't so much that I accidently swallowed it though :). Maybe because they still won the game.

[quote=Daseal]I wonder what our WRs will do this year, Saunders WRs never really did a whole lot.[/quote]

Yup, I was wondering the same thing.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[URL="http://www.redskins.com/team/default.jsp?sortBy=title"]http://www.redskins.com/team/default.jsp?sortBy=title[/URL]

The h-back position has been gone. I don't know if any of you noticed that on their roster page , but it has said TE and FB for a while. The system is not going to change that much though....and cooley is a TE

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

Let's get back to this H-back position dissappearing.... All you are talking about to me is trying to create mis-matches. You can line Cooley up as a FB to block or run little playaction flat passes, a TE to run short routes and in the slot to run more intermediate routes. He had to learn 2-3 positions. This year he may be more of a TE and just have life simplified. I guess I keep thinking about Tony Gonzales and the way he is used. I think Cooley will be able to focus more on catching the ball and not blocking from the FB position and we will go back to having more legit FBs who just block and catch passes from the back field.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

saunders has never had a WR like santana... he tried 18,000 different ways to turn dante's speed into production and it never worked. It'll probably be a bit more spread than last year (where it was moss, cooley, throw it away).

this change happened months ago btw.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=That Guy]this change happened months ago btw.[/quote]

When did they announce it ?

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath]When did they announce it ?[/QUOTE]
When Saunders was brought in it was in the middle of several HC openings. He turned down the Oakland job in favor of this job. Gibbs stated in no uncertain terms that he was assuming a more mangerial function seeing as how is President of football OPS and HC. He said Saunders would have complete control of the offense and based on the fact that Saunders turned down a HC job I'd say he was quite sure he indeed would. Saunders is the offense now. Gibbs may say "hey what do you think of this?" but Saunders is the man with the plan.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

And I'm perfectly fine with that. Just remember, number one offense in the league with KANSAS CITY'S skill position players. They had Gonzo and Holmes. That's IT.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]And I'm perfectly fine with that. Just remember, number one offense in the league with KANSAS CITY'S skill position players. They had Gonzo and Holmes. That's IT.[/quote]oh , come on.... Eddie Kennison???:)

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

And an amazing Oline...

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]And I'm perfectly fine with that. Just remember, number one offense in the league with KANSAS CITY'S skill position players. They had Gonzo and Holmes. That's IT.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but their O-line was also one of the best in the league.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

Yup, and so is ours.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=FRPLG]When Saunders was brought in it was in the middle of several HC openings. He turned down the Oakland job in favor of this job. Gibbs stated in no uncertain terms that he was assuming a more mangerial function seeing as how is President of football OPS and HC. He said Saunders would have complete control of the offense and based on the fact that Saunders turned down a HC job I'd say he was quite sure he indeed would. Saunders is the offense now. Gibbs may say "hey what do you think of this?" but Saunders is the man with the plan.[/quote]

I don't think it was very clear what was said of the duties and responsibilities. I don't think they had a clear and defined understanding themselves when he was first hired.

To me, the h-back position disappearing cleared this up for me.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

I don't remember Cooley ever running the ball last year. Was Larry Centers a HB? While he didn't do a lot of shifting he ran the ball and caught the ball too.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

Here's a link from the press conference of Saunders's hiring.

[URL="http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=15160"]http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=15160[/URL]

This is what Gibbs says on his role:
[I]"Basically, he will oversee and direct the offense. It will free me up to do some other things. I plan on keeping abreast of what's going on, but it will allow me to have more flexibility here." [/I]

But with Al Saunders, he kind of leaves his and gibbs's roles a little open.
On his title:
[I]"It's not about titles it is about production. We are going to work together as a staff and we are going to share in the responsibilities. Everybody on that offensive staff will have tremendous value. I'm sure I will call the first play of the first game of the season and then Joe (Gibbs) might get on that headset and call the rest of them. I am looking forward to working with everybody." [/I]

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]Sure it's not fair, but I'm entitled to my opinion. I think he should have taken himself out of the game if he knew he was going to play like that.[/quote]Part of being a good quarterback is the desire to always be the man no matter what happens. That doesn't mean not being a team player. It means that if it was your decision to play or not, you play. Every snap. It's on the coaching staff to replace him if they didn't believe he was ready to go. Gibbs played him (presumably for offensive continuity and game management), and that's good enough for me.

I'd be far more worried about Brunell if he had pulled himself at the end of the year than I would be if he played through it poorly.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

Tell me if that doesn't make you wonder how their roles were going to play out and who gets what responsibility.

This is just the first time I clearly noticed that hb was gone from the offense and Al Saunders taking the offensive reigns in the same story.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

For sake of arguement, let's say Cooley plays a Richardson style FB on some plays, and a pre2006 Cooley style H Back on others.

I think his role, which in great part determines the direction of the offense, will slowly go one way or the other as Saunders learns how to best utilize the talent. If Saunders thinks he's a more successful H, he will work that in. If Cooley works on his drive blocking, and becomes a FB, then he will play more of that. Either way, expect a diet of both in the preseason and early in the regular season.

Don't expect him to play an in line TE. That's why Fauria was brought in. When Fauria isn't in, Lloyd/Randle El will be in a 3 wide.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

When Cooley lined up at TE last year, it was a shotgun situation, meaning either pass or draw. Cooley is a pretty good pass blocker for a TE/FB/H-B.

Re: H-back Position Disappearing ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]This is just the first time I clearly noticed that hb was gone from the offense and Al Saunders taking the offensive reigns in the same story.[/quote]

the change on the team's roster (at redskins.com) changed almost immediately to remove all H-backs and list them as either FBs or TEs. cooley missing the pro-bowl due to being mislabelled as a FB probably also had something to do with it.