Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

I never thought I'd say this but Joe has to go. He simply has not adjusted to today's NFL. And Vinny Cerato is just Dan's raquetball butt buddy who has not proven anything.

1. Why is he so loyal to an average and aging Brunell?
2. His play calling during the regular season and play-offs last year was terrible and too conservative.
3. Why does he believe that you MUST run the ball to win. Sometimes good teams stack the line and you have to pass downfield, like yesterday.
4. Why trade draft picks for Brunell when you could have got him for nothing.
5. Why trade a 2nd round pick to move up to get Macintosh and then not play him over Holdman?
6. The whole Jason Campbell situation is a joke. Look at all the young QB's that are playing now. Plus they gave up another 1st rounder to get him.
7. Giving up a 3rd and 4th rounder for LLoyd. Bad move! How about drafting a big young WR like Colston on New Orleans?
8. We only made the play-offs becasue of a soft schedule playing teams without their starting QB's.
9. Too many penalty's.
10. Not paying Pierce, Bailey, Smoot and Clark while paying less talented players from other teams.
11. Giving up a 3rd round draft pick for TJ Duckett.
12. Need I go on???

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

What has Vinny done?

As for Gibbs, do we really want to start all over again?? He signed a 5 year deal. I for one would like to see him have the chance to right the ship. Blowing it all up will put us back at square one. I hope you're ready for that if that's what you really want.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;232798]I never thought I'd say this but Joe has to go. He simply has not adjusted to today's NFL. And Vinny Cerato is just Dan's raquetball butt buddy who has not proven anything.

1. Why is he so loyal to an average and aging Brunell?
2. His play calling during the regular season and play-offs last year was terrible and too conservative.
3. Why does he believe that you MUST run the ball to win. Sometimes good teams stack the line and you have to pass downfield, like yesterday.
4. Why trade draft picks for Brunell when you could have got him for nothing.
5. Why trade a 2nd round pick to move up to get Macintosh and then not play him over Holdman?
6. The whole Jason Campbell situation is a joke. Look at all the young QB's that are playing now. Plus they gave up another 1st rounder to get him.
7. Giving up a 3rd and 4th rounder for LLoyd. Bad move! How about drafting a big young WR like Colston on New Orleans?
8. We only made the play-offs becasue of a soft schedule playing teams without their starting QB's.
9. Too many penalty's.
10. Not paying Pierce, Bailey, Smoot and Clark while paying less talented players from other teams.
11. Giving up a 3rd round draft pick for TJ Duckett.
12. Need I go on???[/quote]


Truly Inspirational!

Who among us thought we could get through the day with the Dumbass card being thrown?

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

please no more starting over. vinny has a good track record on higher draft picks and last offseason they made significant changes to the scouting, so can we wait more than a year to see how that pans out? as for gibbs, matty pretty much said it.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

What has Vinny done???? He has done NOTHING! Since Dan has this money why doesn't he hire the best GM money can buy? Can you mention one mid to late round draft pick that has turned out to be any good the last 6 years? Personally I would hire Gregg Williams or Russ Grimm. The players simply don't fear the head coach with all these stupid ass penalty's. And where are the half time adjustments???? He use to be a master at this. If I see that stupid ass WR screen I'm going to throw my remote through the TV screen. 7-8 men on the line of scrimage means THROW THE FRICKIN BALL DOWN THE FRICKIN FIELD.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=T.A.P.O.A.F.O.R.;232814]please no more starting over. vinny has a good track record on higher draft picks and last offseason they made significant changes to the scouting, so can we wait more than a year to see how that pans out? as for gibbs, matty pretty much said it.[/quote]

By bring back Joe Gibbs in the first place, we knew we'd be starting over, with a new coach anyway, in four or five years. So, it's inevitable that we'll start over within two years. At that time, I hope we hire a young coach who can be here for years.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

Starting over isn't a bad idea, if we keep this Offensive line together and start over in every other area, it might not take more than a season to get things together. We are in a worse position than square one right now, we LOST to the Titans, who arent even to square one right now. We got nothing goin for us currently, starting over is the way to go. liquidate the defense and skill positions and invest in draft picks, very simple.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;232817]What has Vinny done???? He has done NOTHING! Since Dan has this money why doesn't he hire the best GM money can buy? Can you mention one mid to late round draft pick that has turned out to be any good the last 6 years? Personally I would hire Gregg Williams or Russ Grimm. The players simply don't fear the head coach with all these stupid ass penalty's. And where are the half time adjustments???? He use to be a master at this. If I see that stupid ass WR screen I'm going to throw my remote through the TV screen. 7-8 men on the line of scrimage means THROW THE FRICKIN BALL DOWN THE FRICKIN FIELD.[/quote]

Vinny really doesn't have any power anymore, he hasn't since Gibbs came back. He's a scout and helps in player evaluation. Getting rid of him won't accomplish much at all.

As for the neverending GM thing, if Gibbs wanted a GM I'm sure Snyder would gladly sign a check for anyone that he wanted. But Gibbs has repeatedly said that he's happy with the personnel decision process as it currently is.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=Twilbert07;232826]By bring back Joe Gibbs in the first place, we knew we'd be starting over, with a new coach anyway, in four or five years. So, it's inevitable that we'll start over within two years. At that time, I hope we hire a young coach who can be here for years.[/quote]

yeah, but the transmission could be smoother. someone who wants to keep most of the current staff and schemes, and who the coaching staff wants to stick around for. promote williams or saunders, maybe? even if they were this bad next year i'd still be for continuity. then again, i still haven't thrown out the best of ABBA album on my shelf, and i have no excuse for that.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

Oh yeah. I almost forgot. Didn't Joe Gibbs once say Desmond Howard had no weakness'????? If we had a legit GM we would have kept Champ Bailey, paid him the frickin money and drafted Tatum Bell. Bell and Betts would be a nice 1-2 punch and you could pay them 1/2 the money that Portis is making and kept the 2ndary together.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=T.A.P.O.A.F.O.R.;232840]yeah, but the transmission could be smoother. someone who wants to keep most of the current staff and schemes, and who the coaching staff wants to stick around for. promote williams or saunders, maybe? even if they were this bad next year i'd still be for continuity. then again, i still haven't thrown out the best of ABBA album on my shelf, and i have no excuse for that.[/quote]

I agree about continuity. But the way the offense and defense are playing, I certainly hope neither Gregg Williams nor Al Saunders is seriously considered to replace Gibbs.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

tatum bell sucks, and betts cant read blocks. Ron Dayne has had good games for the broncos, all you need to be able to do is make one cut and run straight up field on that team. We need portis badly, however, he keeps taking himself off the field. I don't wanna hear anything about him not getting enough carries when he's voluntarily on the sideline most of the game.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;232835]As for the neverending GM thing, if Gibbs wanted a GM I'm sure Snyder would gladly sign a check for anyone that he wanted. But Gibbs has repeatedly said that he's happy with the personnel decision process as it currently is.[/quote]


that'd be all well and good, except that, whoever's in charge on personnel sucks at it. he may not want it, but he needs help there that he's not getting from his scouts or whoever is helping him now.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

I didn't read the whole thread because I'm lazy, so if somebody else brought this up, I apologize.

Basically, the most consistently productive franchises have long-tenured coaches. Changing the coaches every 5 years, doesn't help things -- it hurts.

It seems obvious to me: the salary cap introduces more change in the NFL from year to year. So, the teams who are best able to deal with that change (read: minimize the change) are the teams who have the best likelihood of producing.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;232844]Oh yeah. I almost forgot. Didn't Joe Gibbs once say Desmond Howard had no weakness'????? If we had a legit GM we would have kept Champ Bailey, paid him the frickin money and drafted Tatum Bell. Bell and Betts would be a nice 1-2 punch and you could pay them 1/2 the money that Portis is making and kept the 2ndary together.[/quote]

yes, and hindsight, though many people did think bailey should be paid, once that wasn't possible, the skins had to move on.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=That Guy;232855]that'd be all well and good, except that, whoever's in charge on personnel sucks at it. he may not want it, but he needs help there that he's not getting from his scouts or whoever is helping him now.[/quote]

Is personnel really our problem though?

Perhaps this is deserving of it's own thread... but when I look at our roster I see a talented team. Talented enough to be playing a HELL of a lot better than they are. This team was good enough to win 11 games last year including the playoffs. They added a few guys in the offseason and all of a sudden talent is our main problem?

I'm not buying it.

Injuries, a new offense, and guys underperforming are all reasons I can buy. But talent? C'mon, we've got playmakers all over on offense. Something else is at play here.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

I said in a couple posts last week that changes need to be made, but those changes have to be made to the mindset of the FO. Gibbs realizes he's not going to be able to coach much longer and the idea is to win now. With that idea comes the abandonment of the draft because it dwarfts the win now syndrome. Gibbs does not have the time or patience to develop players because it's going to take more time than he has to win. I've said it before, Gibbs, Cerrato and Snyder are all lovers of the free agent route to team building and it's not goin g to work for a multitude of reasons. That's why I say the mindset of the FO must change for this team to move foreward in a positive direction.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

The problem is that the team has no talent! That is why we lose to a 0-5 team with a rookie qb at home. We are below average at QB, the o-line can't pass protect, the d-line does not have a pass rusher, no real playmakers at linebacker, and the 2ndary is a frickin joke. Arch and Rodgers and cover my mother and no depth at any positions on the team. And if the idea is to win now then why draft Campbell in the first place? Why not take those two picks and get 0-line and d-line help?

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

The team had enough talent to go 10-6 last season and to the second game in the playoffs. the offseason moves were very positive. The result is not

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

put in JC.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

No talent? Are you kidding me? That is NOT one of this teams problems. I am going to stop there and just hope JG rights this ship before season's end.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

Do you remember how they went 10-6?? Barely beat a beat up Philly team w/out McNabb, barely beat Arizona, beat St. Louis playing it's 3rd string QB. And the playoff game??? Do you remember 41 yards passing?? The only reason that game was won was on turnovers and the d-fense scored a TD.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;232866]Is personnel really our problem though?

Perhaps this is deserving of it's own thread... but when I look at our roster I see a talented team. Talented enough to be playing a HELL of a lot better than they are. This team was good enough to win 11 games last year including the playoffs. They added a few guys in the offseason and all of a sudden talent is our main problem?

I'm not buying it.

Injuries, a new offense, and guys underperforming are all reasons I can buy. But talent? C'mon, we've got playmakers all over on offense. Something else is at play here.[/quote]

probably does. depth has always been a concern, and injuries show how terrible our backups are. the playcalling does seem arbitrary and predictable, the screens and outside runs seem to be 50% of our playbook, and the shotgun and audibles (that turned brunell from shite to useful) are no where in sight.

A lack of (player) leadership may also be a problem, but i can't really be sure.


the problem with the FO were the huge contracts to worthless players. 1 for 4 (and overpaying that one too) just isn't good, and the depth at LB isn't good. expensive mistakes bad going foward :/.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;232817]What has Vinny done???? He has done NOTHING! Since Dan has this money why doesn't he hire the best GM money can buy? Can you mention one mid to late round draft pick that has turned out to be any good the last 6 years? Personally I would hire Gregg Williams or Russ Grimm. The players simply don't fear the head coach with all these stupid ass penalty's. And where are the half time adjustments???? He use to be a master at this. If I see that stupid ass WR screen I'm going to throw my remote through the TV screen. 7-8 men on the line of scrimage means THROW THE FRICKIN BALL DOWN THE FRICKIN FIELD.[/quote]


You cant blame Joe for the playcalls. He has handed that to Al. Al is a little stubborn, he has seen his system work and work great. he is not going to change it unless Joe tells him to change it. Joe isn't going to do that. He trusts the people he brings here, and will stay loyal to those people. As far as halftime adjustments, that is Al again. Joe is simply there to oversee everything, make 4th down calls, challenge plays ect.. that is the monster that has been created in Redskin land/.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;232897]Do you remember how they went 10-6?? Barely beat a beat up Philly team w/out McNabb, barely beat Arizona, beat St. Louis playing it's 3rd string QB. And the playoff game??? Do you remember 41 yards passing?? The only reason that game was won was on turnovers and the d-fense scored a TD.[/quote]

But you know what?

They found ways to win.

I really don't care how they looked, the bottom line was they won games.

There's a very fine line between winning and losing, and right now we are finding ways to lose where last year's team found ways to win.

For the record I also recall them trouncing Dallas and NY late in the year.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=#56fanatic;232900]You cant blame Joe for the playcalls. He has handed that to Al. Al is a little stubborn, he has seen his system work and work great. he is not going to change it unless Joe tells him to change it. Joe isn't going to do that. He trusts the people he brings here, and will stay loyal to those people. As far as halftime adjustments, that is Al again. Joe is simply there to oversee everything, make 4th down calls, challenge plays ect.. that is the monster that has been created in Redskin land/.[/quote]

again, your acting like these are hard facts. saunders has already said that gibbs intervenes and can veto plays, and he (saunders) isn't allowed to choose the players he wants to play (from the current roster).

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;232908]But you know what?

They found ways to win.

I really don't care how they looked, the bottom line was they won games.

There's a very fine line between winning and losing, and right now we are finding ways to lose where last year's team found ways to win.

For the record I also recall them trouncing Dallas and NY late in the year.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. And if you look around the league, a lot of teams "back their way" into victories. At the end of the day what matters is the W, not how you got it.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=TAFKAS;232914]Exactly. And if you look around the league, a lot of teams "back their way" into victories. At the end of the day what matters is the W, not how you got it.[/quote]
Look at INDI...

they win pretty, they win ugly, but they win.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

Good teams find a way to win, even when they don't play well! Currently, we are not that team

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=Hog1;232930]Good teams find a way to win, even when they don't play well! Currently, we are not that team[/quote]

shoot... look at that bears game. 4 ints, 2 fumbles, victory?

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

Too much emphasis is being placed on what the team did last year. Last year is dead and gone, every year in the NFL is different. Every year there is some team that plays above and beyond expectations, and some team that does not live up to expectations, we happen to be in the latter category. There's much to be seen yet with the remainder of this season and it all does not have to do with winning and loosing. I'm more inclined to think about possible ways to improve the team and get better as opposed to just continuing to bash the team about it's poor play because that's certainly not going to make it any better. Now I know we're all frustrated (including me) but to go through the team with the constant bashing ceremony has gotten old. We've said everything negative we can possibly say, now on with the positives providing we can find any.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;232908]But you know what?

They found ways to win.

I really don't care how they looked, the bottom line was they won games.

There's a very fine line between winning and losing, and right now we are finding ways to lose where last year's team found ways to win.

For the record I also recall them trouncing Dallas and NY late in the year.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, its about winning. Thats why I get so upset when I hear Al Saunders talk about offensive stats and we played a good game, blah, blah, well guess what Al, the team lost the game, nobody cares how the stats looked the game was lost.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=Longtimefan;232947]Too much emphasis is being placed on what the team did last year. Last year is dead and gone, every year in the NFL is different. Every year there is some team that plays above and beyond expectations, and some team that does not live up to expectations, we happen to be in the latter category. There's much to be seen yet with the remainder of this season and it all does not have to do with winning and loosing. I'm more inclined to think about possible ways to improve the team and get better as opposed to just continuing to bash the team about it's poor play because that's certainly not going to make it any better. Now I know we're all frustrated (including me) but to go through the team with the constant bashing ceremony has gotten old. We've said everything negative we can possibly say, now on with the positives providing we can find any.[/quote]
And past accomplishments too.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;232866]Is personnel really our problem though? But talent? C'mon, we've got playmakers all over on offense. Something else is at play here.[/quote]
I have to agree....

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;232798]I never thought I'd say this but Joe has to go.[/quote]

I think you're speaking out on emotion instead of commonsense. Joe Gibbs still gives us our best chance to win. Now, all the Redskins fans last year begged for a new Offensive coordinator, and we got 'em....the best one in the league. But, has it really helped us? I'm telling ya....if we had made no changes from last season...aside from upgrading our wide receivers...we'd be at least 5-2 right now. But, hiring a brand new head coach who brings in his own coordinators, and getting rid of half the team is going to do nothing more but to remind us of the Redskins of the 90's. Constantly rebuilding and never getting close to being a good team.

Joe stays.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

Read the first post. Gibbs is part of the problem! The whole time he has been here ( the 2nd time around) he plays not to loose instead of stomping on the opponents throat. And I'm tired of the Sanders bashing. Look at KC's offense the last few years? This guy knows how to coach offense. It's not Sanders fault that the QB can't get it done. And I'm sure Gibbs is telling him to call short passes becasue that is mostly how Gibbs called the game the last two years.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

I like Al Saunders, he runs an effective offense, an offense that is designed to possess the ball and score on long time consuming drives. The problem is TALENT. Our offense is no worse than it was last year, it's actually better. We just have no defensive talent. Could someone name me one good D-lineman we have? did you know that lemar marshall didnt have a tackle this week, and holdman had 2!!!!! We need some help for marcus and taylor, who are great players but cannot be an entire defense.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

[QUOTE=The Zimmermans;232979]I like Al Saunders, he runs an effective offense, an offense that is designed to possess the ball and score on long time consuming drives. The problem is TALENT. Our offense is no worse than it was last year, it's actually better. We just have no defensive talent. Could someone name me one good D-lineman we have? did you know that lemar marshall didnt have a tackle this week, and holdman had 2!!!!! We need some help for marcus and taylor, who are great players but cannot be an entire defense.[/QUOTE]

lamar didnt play. but i agree about our entire d-line minus Griff.

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

Let's replace Gibbs with Janky Spanky!

Re: Joe And Vinny Must Go.
 

Marshall didn't have a tackle because he didn't play. Cornelius Griffin is pretty good from what I remember.