Dolphins & Ogunleye talks reaching an impasse
 

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1820188[/url]

I know he wouldn't come cheap at all, just wondering what your guys thoughts are, should we try to go after him?

I want him here in D.C. It's true that he won't come cheap, especially in a year where free agent pass-rushing DEs are few and far between. But, I think he should come for the following reasons:

1. I strongly believe that pressure on opposing quarterbacks is the key to any defense. Our dline is pathetic and I don't buy into that stuff about bringing heat around the edges with the LBs. Remember how well that worked last season?

2. Hey, if we're already screwed with our cap in two years, why not go all in?

3. I don't want to see 5 or 6 no-name backups brought in. 5 or 6 2nd rate backups doesn't equal one good DE or DT. (See Martin Chase, Jermaine Haley, Bernard Holsey, Lional Dalton, James Cannida (sp?))

Yes he won't come cheap, but since when has that ever stopped Danny Boy?
Miami needs a wideout, right? We need a DE (Wynn is good enough) and a DT
(Griffin is good enough) right? The Fins have a good Dline, we have a good WR corps, so let's work something out.

There's no way we can afford him. And the logic that we alread screwed our camp, which we did does not mean, we should screw it more.

My logic that the cap is screwed so why not screw it some more was a bad attempt at black humor. Ultimately, we are going to have to pay top dollar to get a good D-lineman. There is no question, in my mind at least, that we need a guy of Ogunleye's calibre on the line.

Draft picks are nice if you are building a team with adequate starters, but we need immediate help on the dline and in a big way. Dlinemen draft picks take too long to develop, probably more so than any other position.

So, unless you think that our pass-rush was adequate last year, that Griffin will make the difference this year, or that Williams' coaching will make up for massive holes on the dline, I would think you'd agree with me.

this move is not going to happen. no one is making a move for him this season, except for the dolphins. Wait till next year when hes unrestricted to have this conversation

As far as "no way to afford him", there is always a way with Snyder LOL. Those of you that have followed some of the other threads know how I feel about Gardner. If Miami has a problem that they can't solve, a trade may become an attractive alternative... That is one way we could afford it. We definitely need a top-notch pass rusher more than we need a so-so WR, as deep as we are there.

Exactly Hogskin, just look at the way Snyder structures his deals with players.

Below are just a few examples of players' salaries that will double, or even triple, between this year and next year:

Jon Jansen $2M to $4M
Randy Thomas $1M to $2.6M
MLB 59 Micheal Barrow $760K to $1.74M
WR 80 Laveranues Coles $535K to $1.5M
Renaldo Wynn $2M to $3.5M

Now, I understand that many deals are backloaded, but it seems like our entire roster is full of backloaded deals. Can't we squeeze another one in for a VITALLY important position?

Plus, we might want to trade Gardner (which I opposed doing before we got Thrash - who I think is just as good) while teams still want him when he's young, cheap (2 years left on the deal), and his value isn't set in stone as being a decent #2.

I'm normally a cap-conservative guy, but I think the Dline needs special attention.

Great point on the salary structuring, Ramseyfan. Also, the point you made about trading Gardner while his value is up, I will take a step further. Gardner is absolutely no shoe-in for keeping a starting job. If he loses it before or during the season, his value could plummet. Right now, he may have some fairly decent value on the market.

I'm probably one of the few in the pro-Gardner camp. I think he can still be an effective no. 2 receiver. That being said, I'm more concerned with the greater good and that's the Redskins. So yeah I'd do a Gardner/Ogunleye deal. Gardner could go to the Dolphins and replace another former Redskin, Derrius Thompson, who was a total bust for the Fins last year.

By the way, Matty and Smack, don't you think my AGE alone should qualify me to be rid of that BLUE hat?? It's just not right having that thing on an OLD FART... LOL

Hogskin, you may think you're up there in age but you're young in mind and spirit so blue hat it is

no way to afford him,, but never hurts to wishfully think.

yes, even snyder couldnt pull this off unless we cut some high priced guys. pull your heads out of your *** and come back to reality. we're gonna get stuck with a old ass vet , if that

why would you think we couldnt afford him, we hvae six million in cap space. If we gave him a 16 million dollar bonus over an 8 year deal and he had the league minimum for this year he would could for what, like 2.6 against this years cap. he could count for nothing over the next three years if we wanted to give him a lot of upfront money, and Snyder is all for giving up his money up front. he wants a superbowl and dosent care what money he has to throw out to get it. We all know Snyder doesnt care about eight year investments, his all about throwing out lots of money to get a guy. If we wanted him we could afford him salary wise, its just a matter of meeting the dolphins wants for him.

[QUOTE=jrocx69]yes, even snyder couldnt pull this off unless we cut some high priced guys. pull your heads out of your *** and come back to reality. we're gonna get stuck with a old ass vet , if that[/QUOTE]

Hmmmmmmmmm... wonder where YOUR head is??? Did you not see that the conjecture involved TRADING for him? I believe Gardner is over $2M against the cap, plus we have at least $1M more room left than we need to sign the rookies. I really think for less than the $3M in 2004 that we would have in the trade scenario, we could sign Ogunleye to a Snyder-type contract. No stretch AT ALL.

This is all just talk anyway - no need to get ugly. I REALLY don't think Snyder is checking here to see what he should do next LMAO.

[QUOTE=smootsmack]I'm probably one of the few in the pro-Gardner camp. I think he can still be an effective no. 2 receiver. That being said, I'm more concerned with the greater good and that's the Redskins. So yeah I'd do a Gardner/Ogunleye deal. Gardner could go to the Dolphins and replace another former Redskin, Derrius Thompson, who was a total bust for the Fins last year.[/QUOTE]

I am also pro-Gardner. I believe he will have a breakout season this year. I get that you all think he drops the ball a lot, which is true he has dropped a good amount. But the fact is, we werent sayin this stuff 2 years ago when he was a 1,000 yard reciever. He had one down year, but it wasnt a bad year, 60 catches 600 yards. Give this guy a break, dont give up on young talent, and ride it out. He isnt hurting us whatsoever.

I have no doubt that Gardner is a good WR. I think he has be given less credit than he deserves. I also remember how he was the only WR two years ago who got consistent separation despite being occasionally double-teamed.

However, I think our need for a pass-rusher greatly exceeds our need for Gardner. Again, that is no knock on Gardner, it's simply a reflection of our team's current state. We've got Coles (enough said), Thrash (who I think is a much better WR than people give him credit for), McCants (a very good #3 who we just signed to a new deal), and Jacobs (a very promising 2nd year vet).

To me, it makes too much sense to not at least try to trade Gardner for Ogunleye (whether Miami would accept or not is another question). Trust me, our capologists could make the cap situation work.

ogunleye and gardner are not even close to being on the same plane. This is rediculous to even speculate this trade.

Big C, why not speculate about a trade like this? There may be no merit to it, but why not entertain the idea? There are a number of intelligent people on this board and everyone comes up with viewpoints that are pretty damn unique and informed. I continually glean bits and pieces of new information and points of view from debates like this that help me to see the bigger picture of what is going on with our beloved 'Skins.

Rediculous (sic) debates like this are part of what makes this board great!

throw in a draft pick and you have an argument, but i see what u mean

[QUOTE=Big C]ogunleye and gardner are not even close to being on the same plane. This is rediculous to even speculate this trade.[/QUOTE]

C: I was the one that originally suggested a trade a few posts back. Where did you get the idea I suggested a one-for-one straight up trade? And in addition to that, if you read my post, the basis for the trade was, "IF Miami has a problem they can't solve...". In that situation, a team almost never receives full value for the player. There was nothing at all ridiculous about the original post, even though it is doubtful that we will be lucky enough to actually see this come to pass. Of course if it does happen, the primary components of the trade would be Gardner and Ogunleye. I personally believe the Redskins sent out feelers for a Gardner trade around the time they signed Thrash, and did not get offered enough. (That is strictly MY conjecture). So I agree, even with Miami in a bind, Ogunleye has more value than Gardner straight up.

i agree

NO....We Could Afford Ogunleye, but its gonna be the last big name we sign...But he's WELL worth it.....REMEMBER...3 years...not 5.

Big C, you are right that Miami would never go for a Gardner-Ogunleye straight up trade. However, as Hogskin pointed out, the point of mentioning Gardner was that Miami needs a second wideout and Gardner seems disposable at this point. Miami would especially like a guy like Gardner since they already have a speedy WR in Chambers and need a possession WR like Gardner. Though Miami would have a ton of suitors trying to get Ogunleye, I think that we definately would have a shot at him. A trade for Gardner and a 2nd rounder might suffice and though I hate how we give up picks every year, this one can be justified.

As some of the "old Warpathers" might remember from what I said in the preseason last year (I was constantly bit-hing about our crappy front four), I am a FIRM believer that the dline is perhaps the most important "group of positions." I think that defense is the foundation of any solid team, the dline is the most important part of the defense, and the dline's ability to rush the passer and cause disruption in the backfield is key to winning any matchup.

Griffin is a nice addition and Wynn is a decent run-stopper, but we don't have any true pass-rushing threat. No, Arrington does not count since he's a LB and anytime we bring him to the line, our D's "backfield" is that much weaker. Noble is coming off a catastrophic injury. Upshaw didn't show much, besides getting flagged a lot, last year. And our only pass rushing threat from last year, a guy old enough to be some posters' dad, has retired.

Basically, we need help on our dline and bad. Analysts said that Dallas needed help on their dline and they have Glover and Ellis. Who do we have?

NO PASS RUSH=TIME FOR QB=COMPLETIONS=POINTS FOR DALLAS
NO RUN STUFFING DTS=POOR RUN DEFENSE=TIRED 'SKINS D

We need some help, so I say go get Ogunleye. I don't think it's possible that we could overpay for him considering our dline's sad current state.

Sorry guys this gardner trade would be a no go... remember the name Boston? well he's in Miami now, forget ogi I say if we are going to trade get sam Adams the ends would have a monster year with him and griffin colgging up the middle. I think we drafted a big d-linemen 300+ he may be a sleeper this year mark my words

I've been thinking about O lately because it is so rare that a pass rushers hits the market.
However, the way Rosenhause is working, he won't report to a new team either unless his salary demands are met. Might as well wait a year, no point in giving up any value and getting worked by the agent.

I'm not sure Miami would be interested in Gardner, they already have Boston and Chambers.

I would love to get that guy!!! But It isn't going to happen!

this is true

you guys arent paying attention to how much the guys we signed last year and the year before are going to sky rocket... our cap is in enough crap for the future. we have about 2 years before we have to do some major restructuring and waivers to come close to getting under. remember how snyder stays under... its like balloon payments... pay a little now, and a crap load later