F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

So I'm reading this [URL="http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=24186"]TJ Duckett article[/URL] on Redskins.com, and he says "I thought I'd be able to have more of an opportunity here, but it didn't work out that way. Everything happens for a reason, and I'll find out what that is."

I am SOOO tired of hearing the phrase "everything happens for a reason." Yeah TJ, there was a reason. Betts was better than you, that's why you didn't get an opportunity. This did not happen to you because fate is somehow directing you to a new team with a new opportunity.

I HATE the concept of fate, or that anything is predetermined, or that people don't control their own lives. One of the worst things in the world is to hear someone crying about how their boyfriend broke up with them, "but everything happens for a reason."

YEAH, IT DOES. The reason is he didn't want to date your ass anymore, not because God or fate has some master plan for you.

UGH. F that!

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

i hate it because some people think it happens for a GOOD reason and lots of people feel everything will turn out good. I find it hard to think that way, but thats just me.

I'm not against thinking there is fate or thinking stuff is supposed to happen but I don't think all fate is good like some people think. Its just a way that people rationalize their problems or shortcomings

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

Whole-heartedly agree with this. Everything happens. Period. Not for a reason that is predetermined (IMO). I tend to have a positive outlook when something unfortunate does happen by saying "at least I have opportunity for something better now" but by no means do I think that it was supposed to be this way.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

I'm not big on fate but one of my views on life is everything comes out in the wash. It's one of those small things that gets me through tough things sometimes. I just think well this shitty thing may have happened, but if you just plow through and keep chugging good things will happen. You learn and move on.

'Everything happens for a reason' isn't always to be taken literal, I think it's just something that people say sometimes when there's nothing left to say.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

What I hate is when a guy scores a TD and then thanks Jesus, as if Jesus was watching the game and decided it was time for Keyshawn Johnson or whoever to take one to the house. Why doesn't anyone ever thank Jesus when they lose?

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=djnemo65;266943]What I hate is when a guy scores a TD and then thanks Jesus, as if Jesus was watching the game and decided it was time for Keyshawn Johnson or whoever to take one to the house. Why doesn't anyone ever thank Jesus when they lose?[/quote]

That reminds me of the Chris Rock CD skit where he plays a boxer that loses to the champ. The champ says "I'd like thank God for being in my corner" The loser then says something like "How the heck am I supposed to beat him AND GOD?"

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;266943]What I hate is when a guy scores a TD and then thanks Jesus, as if Jesus was watching the game and decided it was time for Keyshawn Johnson or whoever to take one to the house. Why doesn't anyone ever thank Jesus when they lose?[/QUOTE]

This post is a vast oversimplification.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=djnemo65;266943]What I hate is when a guy scores a TD and then thanks Jesus, as if Jesus was watching the game and decided it was time for Keyshawn Johnson or whoever to take one to the house. Why doesn't anyone ever thank Jesus when they lose?[/quote]
colbert did a skit on this on one of his "this week in god" segments. It was pretty funny as i remember.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5;266949]This post is a vast oversimplification.[/QUOTE]

I guess I have to ask you to elaborate?

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;267008]I guess I have to ask you to elaborate?[/QUOTE]

I would say that for the most part, the 'thanking God' celebrations are an act. It's just a way to draw attention to themselves after *they* just scored a TD. Those that are sincere in their gratitude are not thanking God for that one play. They are acknowledging what God has given them that allowed them to make such a play.

As for thanking/praising God when things aren't going your way, it does happen all the time. Joe Gibbs is a good example. It may not be as flamboyant as some sort of TD dance, but there is no doubt that it exists with some players.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

Schneed, are you religious? I would assume not, based on your post. For those who are religious, I think it's a statement of their faith. Of course, that opens a can of worms if we're talking about religion.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5;267015]I would say that for the most part, the 'thanking God' celebrations are an act. It's just a way to draw attention to themselves after *they* just scored a TD. Those that are sincere in their gratitude are not thanking God for that one play. They are acknowledging what God has given them that allowed them to make such a play.

As for thanking/praising God when things aren't going your way, it does happen all the time. Joe Gibbs is a good example. It may not be as flamboyant as some sort of TD dance, but there is no doubt that it exists with some players.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I completely agree. Gibbs is an example of a guy who, even though things are pretty bad, continues to give glory to God every chance he gets. Seems like that is more consistent with what Jesus actually teaches. Still, I wouldn't say it happens all the time. Gibbs is one hell of a guy, obviously, but I can't think of a single athlete off the top of my head who has thanked God after a loss. I'm sure Brunell probably has. It's rare though.

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[quote=onlydarksets;267018]Schneed, are you religious? I would assume not, based on your post. For those who are religious, I think it's a statement of their faith. Of course, that opens a can of worms if we're talking about religion.[/quote]

I'm not religious, no. But I do know a lot about Christianity (though that's just one religion). The Christian faith isn't about God and how He controls your life. It's about how He gives you the strength and courage in trying times to control your own life.

Let's not open the religious can of worms, because that's just going to involve people arguing about their core beliefs, which is pointless.

Religion and pre-determined fate are two separate things. You can be religious without thinking your life is planned out for you. So let's discuss them as separate issues.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

BTW, I just read this the other day. Einstein, agreeing with most scientists of his day that free will was completely illusory, was said to take great comfort in knowing that everything was predetermined. It took the pressure off of what otherwise would be some pretty high stakes decisions. Something like that.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=Schneed10;267022]I'm not religious, no. But I do know a lot about Christianity (though that's just one religion). The Christian faith isn't about God and how He controls your life. It's about how He gives you the strength and courage in trying times to control your own life.

Let's not open the religious can of worms, because that's just going to involve people arguing about their core beliefs, which is pointless.

Religion and pre-determined fate are two separate things. You can be religious without thinking your life is planned out for you. So let's discuss them as separate issues.[/quote]

That's just not true. Many religions ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination#Predestination_in_Christianity"]Christianity included[/URL]) believe their respective God possesses infinite intelligence (i.e., omniscience). With omniscience, everything that will happen is known. Thus, we are free to "choose", but, in fact, someone knows how it will all turn out. You can argue semantics, but a known ending, even if we believe we are "choosing" it, is fate.

It's a topic that confuses people far more intelligent than me, but certain religions are intertwined with fate. When someone says "Everything happens for a reason," it can often be a statement of faith.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

Once, I heard something pretty profound, and it kinda relates:

I was told that everything everyone does their first choice. Every action somebody performs is their first choice, given the circumstances. For example, a homeless person is homeless, because it's their choice -- not due to some external events.

Here's the reasoning:
Nobody does anything they don't want to do. Sure, there are things we don't want to do -- but if we do them, it's for a reason. Usually, when we do something we don't "want" to it's because we'd rather not face the consequences of neglecting to do them. Therefore, everything we do is because we choose to -- mostly because we are trying to avoid worse circumstances. So, a homeless person is homeless because they would rather not face the consequences/responsibilities of not being homeless. Their first choice is to be homeless.

This can be carried to the point of absurdity, so let's not get too literal. Of course my first choice would be to win the lottery and never work again. However, I choose to work everyday because the outcome is more predictable and more certain. Therefore, work [I]is[/I] my first choice -- d'oh!

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;267036]Once, I heard something pretty profound, and it kinda relates:

I was told that everything everyone does their first choice. Every action somebody performs is their first choice, given the circumstances. For example, a homeless person is homeless, because it's their choice -- not due to some external events.

Here's the reasoning:
Nobody does anything they don't want to do. Sure, there are things we don't want to do -- but if we do them, it's for a reason. Usually, when we do something we don't "want" to it's because we'd rather not face the consequences of neglecting to do them. Therefore, everything we do is because we choose to -- mostly because we are trying to avoid worse circumstances. So, a homeless person is homeless because they would rather not face the consequences/responsibilities of not being homeless. Their first choice is to be homeless.

This can be carried to the point of absurdity, so let's not get too literal. Of course my first choice would be to win the lottery and never work again. However, I choose to work everyday because the outcome is more predictable and more certain. Therefore, work [I]is[/I] my first choice -- d'oh![/quote]

That's basically Hobbes.

The first time I heard it I thought it was bunk. Over time, though, I've come to realize that it is true. Everyone is supremely self-interested. Sometimes their interests are noble - they enjoy the feeling of helping others. However, they do what they do because it's their choice. I've yet to think up an exception, although I would love for there to be one.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5;267045]I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.[/QUOTE]

Just as Austin Powers did thinking about time travel and his mojo, I have now gone cross eyed thinking about this.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5;267045]I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.[/QUOTE]

I was tempted to approach this from a physics standpoint, but I couldn't even figure out how to explain it. You did a pretty good job.

One thing I would add: Due to the principle of uncertainty, nobody can ever know the outcome of every event (even though all events are based upon natural laws). As we discover more about quantum physics it seems that there is a great deal of chaos in the universe, and not as much order as we thought. Then there's that idea of order in chaos -- that a state of chaos is the most ordered state -- I still can't comprehend that one.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;267053]I was tempted to approach this from a physics standpoint, but I couldn't even figure out how to explain it. You did a pretty good job.

One thing I would add: Due to the principle of uncertainty, nobody can ever know the outcome of every event (even though all events are based upon natural laws). As we discover more about quantum physics it seems that there is a great deal of chaos in the universe, and not as much order as we thought. Then there's that idea of order in chaos -- that a state of chaos is the most ordered state -- I still can't comprehend that one.[/QUOTE]

But is it really chaos? I'm not saying I'm right, but to me chaos is a good label for things that we don't understand.

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[QUOTE=cpayne5;267054]But is it really chaos? I'm not saying I'm right, but to me chaos is a good label for things that we don't understand.[/QUOTE]

It's definitely just a label. I don't know much about chaos, or the uncertainty principle, so I'm pretty much talking outta my ass. We are so obsessed with answers, we've got to make some up. I'm willing to believe we don't know, and that we made some lame excuse for being ignorant. Why can't we just be satisfied with not knowing? I like mysteries. :)

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i was going to post something, but after reading some of this, i am not sure if im on this level. let me say, that i am not sure about predetermined fate. but on the flip side, i do think that good things happen to good people. if its those good people making it happen....

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[quote=onlydarksets;267026]That's just not true. Many religions ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination#Predestination_in_Christianity"]Christianity included[/URL]) believe their respective God possesses infinite intelligence (i.e., omniscience). With omniscience, everything that will happen is known. Thus, we are free to "choose", but, in fact, someone knows how it will all turn out. You can argue semantics, but a known ending, even if we believe we are "choosing" it, is fate.

It's a topic that confuses people far more intelligent than me, but certain religions are intertwined with fate. When someone says "Everything happens for a reason," it can often be a statement of faith.[/quote]

If you read down a bit further through that very link, you see all the conflicting thoughts and views on predestination in Christianity. It's all over the map, there is not one generally accepted view.

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[quote=dmek25;267063]i was going to post something, but after reading some of this, i am not sure if im on this level. let me say, that i am not sure about predetermined fate. but on the flip side, i do think that good things happen to good people. if its those good people making it happen....[/quote]

Not intended as an argument, dmek, but good things happen to bad people with about as much regularity as good people. Bad things happen to good people with about as much regularity as bad people.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

I'll stick with my trusty stand-by:

"Shit Happens"

Whether it's good shit, bad shit, or indifferent shit, shit happens. Does it happen for a reason? Sure. Does it happen because of fate? Sure. As far as I know, I'm along for this roller coaster ride called life, and whatever happens...happens.

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[quote=BDBohnzie;267090]I'll stick with my trusty stand-by:

"Shit Happens"

Whether it's good shit, bad shit, or indifferent shit, shit happens. Does it happen for a reason? Sure. Does it happen because of fate? Sure. As far as I know, I'm along for this roller coaster ride called life, and whatever happens...happens.[/quote]

UGH.

NO. Shit just happens. Period. That bumper sticker never said anything about fate. It just meant Shit Happens, deal with it. Roll with the punches.

If fate is predetermined, please go outside right now, get in your car, and run over the first police officer you see. If there is a grand master plan for you, and none of your choices matter, then who cares if you run over a police officer? You're going to end up with the same situation, no matter what you choose to do, right?

Better yet, hey guess what, your fate is predetermined! Might as well drink and smoke and eat McDonalds everynight! After all, fate already knows how you're going to die right? So doing all those things won't affect anything. It won't increase your chances of a heart attack, it won't increase your chances of emphysema, it won't increase your chances of lung cancer. Just do whatever you want, your free will has no affect on your fate. How many doctors would say that makes any sense?

F that kind of thinking.

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[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion"]The God Delusion[/URL] makes perfect sense to me. Just remember kids, everyone is trying to f'you out of your hard earned dollars and God is the friend of scam artists.

p.s. I use to be religious until I started thinking for myself instead of soaking the BS my parents were feeding me.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

I never said a thing about fate being predeterminded, and there being a grand master plan...I think you are clearly looking way too deep into what I said. Ask AMD. I'm a pretty simple guy, with simple intentions, and I try to lead a pretty simple life.

All I'm saying is that whatever floats your boat, however you see the world is fine by me. If you think it's fate, good for you. If you think there's reason behind everything, good for you. If you think you have the worst luck in the world, so be it. All I know is, I stand by my decisions, no matter what, I rarely regret the decisions I make, and I'm just livin' life. L-I-V-I-N'.

My decisions guide me onto the path that's best for me. If it's predetermined, so be it. If it's fate, great. I am in control of my own destiny, as my destiny is best suited by the choices I make. I can either blindly believe that my decisions are already decided for me, or I can throw a goddamn curve ball at life. Either way, I gladly stand behind what I decide.

Everything does happen for a reason. It's each of us that determines what that reason is.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;267101]I never said a thing about fate being predeterminded, and there being a grand master plan...I think you are clearly looking way too deep into what I said. Ask AMD. I'm a pretty simple guy, with simple intentions, and I try to lead a pretty simple life.

All I'm saying is that whatever floats your boat, however you see the world is fine by me. If you think it's fate, good for you. If you think there's reason behind everything, good for you. If you think you have the worst luck in the world, so be it. All I know is, I stand by my decisions, no matter what, I rarely regret the decisions I make, and I'm just livin' life. L-I-V-I-N'.

My decisions guide me onto the path that's best for me. If it's predetermined, so be it. If it's fate, great. I am in control of my own destiny, as my destiny is best suited by the choices I make. I can either blindly believe that my decisions are already decided for me, or I can throw a goddamn curve ball at life. Either way, I gladly stand behind what I decide.

Everything does happen for a reason. It's each of us that determines what that reason is.[/quote]

OK you confused me. The post I reacted to said "shit happens. Does it happen for a reason? Sure. Does it happen because of fate? Sure."

You clearly said things happened because of fate. Maybe poor choice of words and you were trying to say something like "if you want to think of it as fate, be my guest?"

I'm on the same page now though. You determine your fate based on what you decide to do.

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[quote=cpayne5;267045]I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.[/quote]

If we knew where every piece of matter was, and we could predict every reaction amongst every molecule, atom, and synapse in every animal's brain; wouldn't we essentially be omniscient beings?

You're essentially saying if we could get to that point, we'd be like a god. If we knew how EVERYTHING worked, and we could predict how it would work, then we could change how it worked (Neo in the Matrix). And if humans can predict and change all matters of science, then aren't we really exercising our own free will over the universe?

Knowledge is power.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

And now some levity:

[IMG]http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7199/4490722200x150tv9.jpg[/IMG]

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;267108]If we knew where every piece of matter was, and we could predict every reaction amongst every molecule, atom, and synapse in every animal's brain; wouldn't we essentially be omniscient beings?

You're essentially saying if we could get to that point, we'd be like a god. If we knew how EVERYTHING worked, and we could predict how it would work, then we could change how it worked (Neo in the Matrix). And if humans can predict and change all matters of science, then aren't we really exercising our own free will over the universe?

Knowledge is power.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm not at all saying we'd be like a god. A god creates or controls. By knowing everything there is to know about physics would not make us a god.

I never used the word "change". All I basically said was that if you knew how every piece of matter reacted to every single possible condition, you would be able to predict the future. It would be easy. Simple as y = 2x. If you knew what x was, you could reliably predict what y would be. It would just become a huge storyboard where everything is laid out and there is only one scenario for every situation.

Since our brains, and everything else known to us is composed of a matter that we think we understand, and can therefore can act only one way for each specific condition, then our brains are also controlled by simple physics. If we truly are controlled by nothing more than a physical world, how can we possibly think for ourselves when the very things we are composed of is not capable of doing more than one thing in one specific situation?

I'm not saying I believe this; I'm saying that if we are controlled solely by nothing more than what we can see (ie, no God), then this is how I believe we would be.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

I would like to know why a big nail put a fat hole in my cars back tire last week? What's the rational behind that? Perhaps god decided that the guy running the repair shop I went to needed more customers.

Shit happens and god has nothing to do with it. If anything he/she/it is a spectators. And if you believe in the notion of "things happen for a reason" then I'd like to know what your take on fortune cookies and horoscope are.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=cpayne5;267241]No, I'm not at all saying we'd be like a god. A god creates or controls. By knowing everything there is to know about physics would not make us a god.

I never used the word "change". All I basically said was that if you knew how every piece of matter reacted to every single possible condition, you would be able to predict the future. It would be easy. Simple as y = 2x. If you knew what x was, you could reliably predict what y would be. It would just become a huge storyboard where everything is laid out and there is only one scenario for every situation.

Since our brains, and everything else known to us is composed of a matter that we think we understand, and can therefore can act only one way for each specific condition, then our brains are also controlled by simple physics. If we truly are controlled by nothing more than a physical world, how can we possibly think for ourselves when the very things we are composed of is not capable of doing more than one thing in one specific situation?

I'm not saying I believe this; I'm saying that if we are controlled solely by nothing more than what we can see (ie, no God), then this is how I believe we would be.[/quote]

I know you didn't say anything about change. I did.

If you know everything, and can mathematically predict exactly how everything is going to react with each other, then you can do something to make any reaction happen that you want.

For example, we don't know everything about medicine. But we do know some things. For instance, we know what causes the flu. It's a virus. We know how it attacks our body and we know how it chemically multiplies. Because we know this, we were able to create a vaccine to prevent the flu from attacking our body. The knowledge of the flu enabled us to prevent it.

We also now know enough about genetics to be able to clone animals. We know how cells multiply and that if you use the same genetic code, you can recreate an exact copy of an organism. So what do we do with that knowledge? We clone cows and chickens for sale in our grocery store.

Now imagine we know EVERYTHING and can predict all human behavior in all instances, as well as all animal behavior in all instances. With that knowledge, we can intervene all we want, and make any reaction happen that we want. We'd essentially be all-powerful, exercising our own free will over anything we chose.

The story may be all laid out for us. But we'd be able to read it all. And we'd be able to rewrite the story in any way we see fit.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;267269]I know you didn't say anything about change. I did.

If you know everything, and can mathematically predict exactly how everything is going to react with each other, then you can do something to make any reaction happen that you want.

For example, we don't know everything about medicine. But we do know some things. For instance, we know what causes the flu. It's a virus. We know how it attacks our body and we know how it chemically multiplies. Because we know this, we were able to create a vaccine to prevent the flu from attacking our body. The knowledge of the flu enabled us to prevent it.

We also now know enough about genetics to be able to clone animals. We know how cells multiply and that if you use the same genetic code, you can recreate an exact copy of an organism. So what do we do with that knowledge? We clone cows and chickens for sale in our grocery store.

Now imagine we know EVERYTHING and can predict all human behavior in all instances, as well as all animal behavior in all instances. With that knowledge, we can intervene all we want, and make any reaction happen that we want. We'd essentially be all-powerful, exercising our own free will over anything we chose.

The story may be all laid out for us. But we'd be able to read it all. And we'd be able to rewrite the story in any way we see fit.[/QUOTE]

No. You're not understanding what I'm saying, yet.

All of this is a logical IFF, btw, dependent upon the existence of no God/Creator.

If we are nothing more than physical beings composed of physical matter, then we are nothing more. We cannot rewrite anything. We cannot learn anything. We do not have a free will. We cannot predict. We can do nothing on our own. We are simply compositions of matter and the resulting actions or reactions of said matter. Nothing more.

If everything is guided by physics and the properties of every building block to the universe is constant, then there is one and only one course of action all matter can take. Everything is dependent upon everything else (because everything influences everything, according to physics, correct?). There are no forks in the road. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Disclaimer - Again, I do not believe this. I'm just saying that if our world (not only Earth, but WORLD) is nothing more than a physical world, then this is how I believe it would be governed.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=cpayne5;267322]No. You're not understanding what I'm saying, yet.

All of this is a logical IFF, btw, dependent upon the existence of no God/Creator.

If we are nothing more than physical beings composed of physical matter, then we are nothing more. We cannot rewrite anything. We cannot learn anything. We do not have a free will. We cannot predict. We can do nothing on our own. We are simply compositions of matter and the resulting actions or reactions of said matter. Nothing more.

If everything is guided by physics and the properties of every building block to the universe is constant, then there is one and only one course of action all matter can take. Everything is dependent upon everything else (because everything influences everything, according to physics, correct?). There are no forks in the road. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Disclaimer - Again, I do not believe this. I'm just saying that if our world (not only Earth, but WORLD) is nothing more than a physical world, then this is how I believe it would be governed.[/quote]

I don't understand why we couldn't rewrite things? Please explain that to me. If EVERYTHING is governed by physics and mathematical equations, why couldn't we get to a point where we COMPLETELY understand that mathematical equation?

Wouldn't that be the natural course of action? After all, we're doing research on physics and chemistry and medicine and genetics. We're learning more every day. Wouldn't the only course of action be that we try to figure everything out? And if everything is a mathematical equation, wouldn't we figure it all out eventually?

And once we did, couldn't we do what we wanted?

I get your logical premise: If everything is math, then there is only one answer. But I'm taking it a step further. If we figure out the mathematical equation, we could introduce variables to produce different results.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=cpayne5;267322]No. You're not understanding what I'm saying, yet.

All of this is a logical IFF, btw, dependent upon the existence of no God/Creator.

If we are nothing more than physical beings composed of physical matter, then we are nothing more. We cannot rewrite anything. [B]We cannot learn anything.[/B] We do not have a free will. [B]We cannot predict.[/B] We can do nothing on our own. We are simply compositions of matter and the resulting actions or reactions of said matter. Nothing more.

If everything is guided by physics and the properties of every building block to the universe is constant, then there is one and only one course of action all matter can take. Everything is dependent upon everything else (because everything influences everything, according to physics, correct?). There are no forks in the road. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Disclaimer - Again, I do not believe this. I'm just saying that if our world (not only Earth, but WORLD) is nothing more than a physical world, then this is how I believe it would be governed.[/quote]

Going back to your post, I'm noticing flaws in the logic, notably the bolded part.

Why can't we learn? The more research we do, the more we learn about the world.

Why can't we predict? We predict the weather with relative accuracy.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;267330]Going back to your post, I'm noticing flaws in the logic, notably the bolded part.

Why can't we learn? The more research we do, the more we learn about the world.

Why can't we predict? We predict the weather with relative accuracy.[/QUOTE]

You are still not understanding the fundamental principles I have laid out. You are thinking too high level. Start low and work your way up, keeping in mind the principles and fundamentals from the lower levels.

* It all starts with whether or not you believe we are totally based from a physical world with no God/Creator. If not, the following does not apply.
* There are basic building blocks to everything in our physical world.
* These building blocks/pieces have properties.
* These properties are constant. They do not act differently given the exact same situations. They only have one action for every situation.
* We are composed of these building blocks.
* The properties of these building blocks hold true while making up the composition of our being (mind, body) as well as everything around us and in the universe(s).
* Now if everything has only one and only action in accordance with the universe's current state, then there is only one [next] state that all matter in the universe can progress to. So forth and so forth. Basically a mathematical road map/storyboard.
* Now, our brain is made up of this matter that is (and can *only*, due to physics) act one way to a given state. So, essentially our brains are not acting on their own, but being controlled/reacting (as governed by physics) to the physical world around it. There is no thinking. There are no cognitive actions/reactions.

Re: F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"
 

[quote=cpayne5;267332]You are still not understanding the fundamental principles I have laid out. You are thinking too high level. Start low and work your way up, keeping in mind the principles and fundamentals from the lower levels.

* It all starts with whether or not you believe we are totally based from a physical world with no God/Creator. If not, the following does not apply.
* There are basic building blocks to everything in our physical world.
* These building blocks/pieces have properties.
* These properties are constant. They do not act differently given the exact same situations. They only have one action for every situation.
* We are composed of these building blocks.
* The properties of these building blocks hold true while making up the composition of our being (mind, body) as well as everything around us and in the universe(s).
* Now if everything has only one and only action in accordance with the universe's current state, then there is only one [next] state that all matter in the universe can progress to. So forth and so forth. Basically a mathematical road map/storyboard.
* Now, our brain is made up of this matter that is (and can *only*, due to physics) act one way to a given state. So, essentially our brains are not acting on their own, but being controlled/reacting (as governed by physics) to the physical world around it. [B]There is no thinking. There are no cognitive actions/reactions.[/B][/quote]

Yeah I definitely follow. But the last * is just bad logic.

Our brains may be controlled by the physical world in which we live. And I follow the point that if we see something happen, our brain reacts by learning how it happens. The physics in our brain create a record of what we saw, and the physics in our brain create a synaptic response that tells us, hey, if A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

The one natural course of action, which was guided by physics and mathematical equations, led to the only possibility: our brain creating a synaptic response telling us that A = C.

Now over time, the only course of action physics allows will be that our brains create more and more synaptic responses, telling us that we've figured out more of the physics of the universe.

We are learning. It's just that learning IS the natural course of physics for us humans. And I ask you, what happens when we learn everything?