Tiered minimum wage?
 

Hey guys, thought I'd run an idea a colleague and several others were discussing...

The subject of minimum wage and education came up. One guy brought up an idea that minimum wage should be tiered to represent your education level. Ungraduated from high school would be the base, GED would be the next level and high school diploma would be next. The idea would be to encourage students to at least finish their high school education.

Any thoughts on this?

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

Naw...I don't buy that one at all. For a lot of different reasons really. But I think the current system works well.

People haven't finished high school for a lot of different reasons, so bringing them in at lower rate could actually be a disincentive to finish high school.

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Actually the thought is raising the rate for the GED and HS graduates, the current base rate would be for non-high school graduates.

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All I know is the current min. wage rate is a joke. Let's get it raised to a decent level first and go from there. It's not a livable wage as is.

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Not necessary...most minimum wage jobs are FOR non-high school graduates anyways. There's no reason to have any qualification system for minimum wage and really, no reason to raise it. Working at these jobs are not permament arrangements, not intended for or used for raising a family (mostly kids looking for their first job or a summer job and retired people looking for something to do take the jobs) and it would actually hurt the entire US economy to raise the min wage. It would force the employers and businesses to raise prices to make up for their lost profits from the government-mandated payroll expense. McDonald's wouldn't pay for the rate hike, their customers would. Also, it would make a lot of employers have to cut the number of minimum wage employees they can afford to keep, so the "feel good" political tactic of raising the minimum wage would end up puttting a lot of the people they want to help out of work instead. We haven't even gotten into the higher-paid employees' demands of raises to stay the same "value" ahead of the kids at the counter or cleaning the windows.

If you have ANY skills at all, you can do better than a minimum wage job. Sure there are a lot of kids having babies, but they better not be relying on burger-flipping to support the child.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;266995]All I know is the current min. wage rate is a joke. Let's get it raised to a decent level first and go from there. It's not a livable wage as is.[/quote]

As I said, it's not INTENDED to be.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

Most jobs these days start at well above the minimum wage, so it really shouldn't be an issue.

As Buster said, minimum wage is not intended to be a livable wage. It's routinely for kids working part time while in high school/college to earn a few bucks. It should be incentive for those making minimum wage to bust their asses to make more money. I almost equate it to the newer grading systems in school...trying to get everyone to pass so they don't feel the negativity of failing. Raising the minimum wage will only help those people squeek by instead of working harder to gain their own incentives.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

They do something like this in Europe and some countries factor in age as well.

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Education should not drive the level of minimum wage. Think about it, if you're McDonalds and you need to hire cashiers, are you going to hire the ones that cost $9.00 an hour or the ones that cost $7.00 an hour?

It doesn't take a high school education to work a cashier at McDonalds, so they're going to hire the cheaper labor.

Besides, education is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Education is designed to give you more skills, which makes you a more desireable employee. But if you come out of high school without any skills, you're still no more deserving than the guy who dropped out and doesn't have any skills.

You also must leave room for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Some high school dropouts work their ass off and gain skills, and move up the old fasioned way.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=saden1;267009]They do something like this in Europe and some countries factor in age as well.[/quote]

The 14th Amendment to the US Constitution prevents age from being a factor in employability or wage rates. AKA the Civil Rights amendment.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=Buster;266998]Not necessary...most minimum wage jobs are FOR non-high school graduates anyways. There's no reason to have any qualification system for minimum wage and really, no reason to raise it. Working at these jobs are not permament arrangements, not intended for or used for raising a family (mostly kids looking for their first job or a summer job and retired people looking for something to do take the jobs) and it would actually hurt the entire US economy to raise the min wage. It would force the employers and businesses to raise prices to make up for their lost profits from the government-mandated payroll expense. McDonald's wouldn't pay for the rate hike, their customers would. Also, it would make a lot of employers have to cut the number of minimum wage employees they can afford to keep, so the "feel good" political tactic of raising the minimum wage would end up puttting a lot of the people they want to help out of work instead. [B]We haven't even gotten into the higher-paid employees' demands of raises to stay the same "value" ahead of the kids at the counter or cleaning the windows.[/B]

If you have ANY skills at all, you can do better than a minimum wage job. Sure there are a lot of kids having babies, but they better not be relying on burger-flipping to support the child.[/quote]

I agree with all of this... except the bolded part. Salary inflation in the country has been about 2-3% per year over the last 7 years. Over that time, the minimum wage has not been raised, not even to adjust for inflation. So speaking in relative terms, the working poor have lost value to the higher paid employees. To be truly fair, we should give minimum wage a boost to make up for 7 years of inflation. I don't think minimum wage should be raised in that min wage employees should have more money in their pockets, but they certainly shouldn't have less than they did 7 years ago, which is exactly what happens when the wage doesn't keep pace with inflation. A 14.8% boost in the min wage would put employees on the same footing as they were 7 years ago, assuming inflation was 2% per year.

But you are right, minimum wage is not intended to support a family, and it should not be expected by anyone to do so.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=Schneed10;267029]Education should not drive the level of minimum wage. Think about it, if you're McDonalds and you need to hire cashiers, are you going to hire the ones that cost $9.00 an hour or the ones that cost $7.00 an hour?

It doesn't take a high school education to work a cashier at McDonalds, so they're going to hire the cheaper labor.

Besides, education is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Education is designed to give you more skills, which makes you a more desireable employee. But if you come out of high school without any skills, you're still no more deserving than the guy who dropped out and doesn't have any skills.

You also must leave room for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Some high school dropouts work their ass off and gain skills, and move up the old fasioned way.[/quote]

I thought of a similiar point on my drive back to work. It would be difficult to prevent a company from employing "education level" discrimination. Why hire the hs grad when I can pay the 6th grade education guy a lesser rate?

Minimum wage may be a joke and also intended as a launch pad for teenagers but many adults earn minimum wage. Given their circumstances (single parent, medical problems, etc) their opportunity to further enhance their skill set or education is nigh impossible.

I'd rather have an increase in minimum wage instead of unlimited duration of welfare payments.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=Buster;266999]As I said, it's not INTENDED to be.[/quote]

Personally I think it should be, or at least a lot closer to being a livable wage than it is now.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

I've had a lot of 2 cents lately, why not another?

The reason for minimum wage is not to prevent people from being exploited by thier employers. The real reason is to get votes.

Having a minimum wage hurts the economy, by increasing the amount of unemployment. Bottomline: people will not take a job that's not worth the work. If there's a low paying job and there are people who are willing to work it -- why prevent that, even if the wage is lower than what some people think is acceptable? Minimum wage is a product of the employment market (much like all other markets). Setting it artificially high just means that companies cannot/will not employ as many people as they would like to.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

One could make a (weak) argument that a person earning more is happier and thus production increases. An increase in production yields greater output which could lower consumer costs.

Also, the people now earning more money have more spending power on luxury items (cars, electronics, etc) which increases overall revenue.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;267048]I've had a lot of 2 cents lately, why not another?



Having a minimum wage hurts the economy, by increasing the amount of unemployment. Bottomline: people will not take a job that's not worth the work. [/quote]
this statement drives me up a wall. let me see, i can take a job, and try to bust my tail. make my life better. or i can live off the system, and be one of the millions that live off the fat of the U.S. government, and complain about the crappy hand that i have been dealt. i worked 2 jobs for over 2 years. doesnt anyone have pride in their work habits anymore?

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;267048]I've had a lot of 2 cents lately, why not another?

The reason for minimum wage is not to prevent people from being exploited by thier employers. The real reason is to get votes.

Having a minimum wage hurts the economy, by increasing the amount of unemployment. Bottomline: people will not take a job that's not worth the work. If there's a low paying job and there are people who are willing to work it -- why prevent that, even if the wage is lower than what some people think is acceptable? Minimum wage is a product of the employment market (much like all other markets). Setting it artificially high just means that companies cannot/will not employ as many people as they would like to.[/quote]

Jacking up minimum wage does hurt the economy, but if people are working in jobs that can't even put a roof over their head or food on the table, they will begin to resort to crime.

It doesn't take a genius to realize why crime is so bad in our inner cities. The people there are poor and will resort to drugs, prostitution, theft, etcetera to make a decent living. The more people living below the poverty line, the more people will commit crimes.

You have a few ways of dealing with this: beef up the police force to try to deter crime, jack up the minimum wage so more people don't need to resort to crime, or offer welfare benefits to keep people from resorting to crime. No matter which method you employ, they all cost money. And really, you need a balance of all three.

It costs the economy, but that's the price of doing business, unless you want to have crime in our inner cities like in Mexico City. You think it's bad in NY or Philly, try heading down there.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

To add, there should be no excuse to commit crimes if you have a minimum wage job right now. The minimum wage is currently set at a level that makes life livable (though not comfortably). But it won't be that way for long, unless they do something to keep minimum wage on pace with inflation growth.

I take issue with those who say it should be jacked up to a more comfortable level. NO. Minimum wage is not supposed to be comfortable. It should provide the BARE essentials to help you get by: shelter, food, water, heat.

But if you want it to provide even the bare minimum, it needs to keep pace with inflation.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[url=http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm]DOL WHD: Minimum Wage Laws in the States[/url]

Over half of the states (and the District) in the Union have their state minimum wage set higher than the Federal law. And this is the level it should be at. The state should be able to take into consideration what bare minimum is for their area, and set it appropriately.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;267093][URL="http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm"]DOL WHD: Minimum Wage Laws in the States[/URL]

Over half of the states (and the District) in the Union have their state minimum wage set higher than the Federal law. And this is the level it should be at. The state should be able to take into consideration what bare minimum is for their area, and set it appropriately.[/quote]

Yes. But taking that even further, many states have not increased their own minimum wages over the last seven years. So even though they have a geographical adjustment for cost of living built into their minimum wage, they don't increase it for inflation every year.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

Devil's Advocate time:
Why would I as an employer care if my batallion of burger flippers has high school diplomas? I mean... they're flipping burgers. I just want them smart enough not to bob for french fries. Sure, I'll have one or two grads around in case the others have trouble making change, but I want to hire the cheapest labor I can get, leaving most of those pesky, expensive high school grads without jobs in a tiered system.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

But if you'll notice, there are several states looking to correct that trend over the next 6-12 months.

I just think it should be up to the individual state to make such a correction, rather than the Federal Government.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;267103]But if you'll notice, there are several states looking to correct that trend over the next 6-12 months.

I just think it should be up to the individual state to make such a correction, rather than the Federal Government.[/quote]

Yeah either way is fine with me, Federal or State level. I just think it should keep pace with inflation.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;267087]Jacking up minimum wage does hurt the economy, but if people are working in jobs that can't even put a roof over their head or food on the table, they will begin to resort to crime.

It doesn't take a genius to realize why crime is so bad in our inner cities. The people there are poor and will resort to drugs, prostitution, theft, etcetera to make a decent living. The more people living below the poverty line, the more people will commit crimes.

You have a few ways of dealing with this: beef up the police force to try to deter crime, jack up the minimum wage so more people don't need to resort to crime, or offer welfare benefits to keep people from resorting to crime. No matter which method you employ, they all cost money. And really, you need a balance of all three.

It costs the economy, but that's the price of doing business, unless you want to have crime in our inner cities like in Mexico City. You think it's bad in NY or Philly, try heading down there.[/QUOTE]

True. If people aren't satisfied with their lives and there is no visible hope, then they resort to whatever means are available. It's the foundation of communism -- people get so fed up with their employers eventually that they revolt against the people/system which holds them down. It's the minimum wage which makes them more complacent, and less willing to revolt. So, I guess maybe it's not just about votes?

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If you are over age 18 or 19 and making min wage its not an education issue but an issue of one lazy person.

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[quote=firstdown;267174]If you are over age 18 or 19 and making min wage its not an education issue but an issue of one lazy person.[/quote]

True that.

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[quote=firstdown;267174]If you are over age 18 or 19 and making min wage its not an education issue but an issue of one lazy person.[/quote]

Tell that to the single mom of 3 kids whose trash truck driving husband was killed in a random accident. Homemaker all her life with no education/skills. She's supposed to get a job earning higher than minimum wage because an employer believes she's not lazy? There are plenty of similiar situations in a recessed economic environment throughout the country.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=Schneed10;267034]I agree with all of this... except the bolded part. Salary inflation in the country has been about 2-3% per year over the last 7 years. Over that time, the minimum wage has not been raised, not even to adjust for inflation. So speaking in relative terms, the working poor have lost value to the higher paid employees. To be truly fair, we should give minimum wage a boost to make up for 7 years of inflation. I don't think minimum wage should be raised in that min wage employees should have more money in their pockets, but they certainly shouldn't have less than they did 7 years ago, which is exactly what happens when the wage doesn't keep pace with inflation. A 14.8% boost in the min wage would put employees on the same footing as they were 7 years ago, assuming inflation was 2% per year.

But you are right, minimum wage is not intended to support a family, and it should not be expected by anyone to do so.[/quote]
If a person has worked for 7 years and are making min wage then it is something they are doing wrong. Like not keeping a job, calls in sick all the time, does not even try at all, etc. Did you know that only 17% of people in poverty have a full time jobs so that means that 83% don't even work over 40 hours a week. I bet you cannot find me one person that has worked hard at a job for over a year and is making min wage that is just not the problem.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;267077]this statement drives me up a wall. let me see, i can take a job, and try to bust my tail. make my life better. or i can live off the system, and be one of the millions that live off the fat of the U.S. government, and complain about the crappy hand that i have been dealt. i worked 2 jobs for over 2 years. doesnt anyone have pride in their work habits anymore?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you mean ... can you elaborate?

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;267181]Tell that to the single mom of 3 kids whose trash truck driving husband was killed in a random accident. Homemaker all her life with no education/skills. She's supposed to get a job earning higher than minimum wage because an employer believes she's not lazy? There are plenty of similiar situations in a recessed economic environment throughout the country.[/quote]What you said may be true but I say its more of people not showing up or trying to advance themself in the job market.MY daughter with no job experience found her first job making $6.00 plus tips which made her hour wage around $9.00 and that was a Sonic's. The next summer she made $9.00 hour filing paper work and doing odd jobs for a Co. They asked her to work the next summer at $10.00 an hour. I'm not saying that a person might not start off at Min. wage but if they show up on time do their job they will not be making Min. wage very long. I have several friends who own fast food franchises and all start above min. wage and tell me its hard to find someone who will show up every day and do the job. The ones that do get a fast pay hike so they will stay around because they know that businesses are looking for dependable workers. One other example is a friend who has a framing (construction co) which he will play anyone who wants to work without job skills at $10.00. After two months if they work hard and will just learn some basic skills he will increase their pay to $13.00 and offer some health cov. He is willing to pick them up but he has a full time job finding people willing to give him a full days work and they soon are gone. I just don't see this as an issue of businesses not willing to pay but with them finding people worth paying a decent wage.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=firstdown;267185]If a person has worked for 7 years and are making min wage then it is something they are doing wrong. Like not keeping a job, calls in sick all the time, does not even try at all, etc. Did you know that only 17% of people in poverty have a full time jobs so that means that 83% don't even work over 40 hours a week. I bet you cannot find me one person that has worked hard at a job for over a year and is making min wage that is just not the problem.[/quote]

I don't disagree. My point is that people who just dropped out of high school and started on minimum wage 7 years ago had a better standard of living than the people who are just dropping out of high school and starting out on minimum wage today.

That ain't right.

The world is 14.8% more expensive to live in today than it was 7 years ago. There needs to be an adustment made. It's not a boost by any means, it's just to get them back to where they were 7 years ago.

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PS If anybody did not get cost of living increases to help your salary keep pace with inflation, then your employer is doing you a disservice in my opinion. It doesn't matter if you are minimum wage or if you're making $200K a year. Everyone should be getting 2% raises per year just to keep pace with inflation.

Any % increase beyond that should be merit based.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

I didn't even get a 1% percent raise last year. I expressed my opinion during the yearly review about that. Two months later 35 employees were layed off, mostly irrelevant and overpaid territory sales staff. So, I decided to give them another chance...

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=Schneed10;267603]I don't disagree. My point is that people who just dropped out of high school and started on minimum wage 7 years ago had a better standard of living than the people who are just dropping out of high school and starting out on minimum wage today.

That ain't right.

The world is 14.8% more expensive to live in today than it was 7 years ago. There needs to be an adustment made. It's not a boost by any means, it's just to get them back to where they were 7 years ago.[/quote]
What isn't right is that they dropped out of high school. That tells me they are lazy and not willing to finish their job. They know when dropping out that they are going to have a tough time making a living so thats a poor argument,

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=firstdown;268261]What isn't right is that they dropped out of high school. That tells me they are lazy and not willing to finish their job. They know when dropping out that they are going to have a tough time making a living so thats a poor argument,[/quote]

So you're saying today's high school dropouts are worth 14.8% less than the high school dropouts from 7 years ago?

I'd strongly disagree. I'd say they're equally worthless. But since this country has a minimum wage (in place to prevent crime), they need to keep it's value consistent with the rising cost of living.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;267643]I didn't even get a 1% percent raise last year. I expressed my opinion during the yearly review about that. Two months later 35 employees were layed off, mostly irrelevant and overpaid territory sales staff. So, I decided to give them another chance...[/quote]

One of the problems with corporations is they get too big for their britches when they're having success. They starting hiring all kinds of people, a lot of the time less-deserving folks. Then when the business doesn't do as well, they have to make cuts, and that affects the solid employees as well, which is some bullhooey.

I wouldn't stick around somewhere for too long if the company couldn't even muster a 2% cost of living raise.

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=firstdown;268261]What isn't right is that they dropped out of high school. That tells me they are lazy and not willing to finish their job. They know when dropping out that they are going to have a tough time making a living so thats a poor argument,[/quote]

A friend of mine dropped out of high school in order to get a job (minimum wage) so that he wouldn't have to remain under his physically abusive dad's roof any longer than he had to. Laziness is one of last words you would use to describe him. There are more reasons than "laziness" why someone would drop out of high school.

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[quote=Schneed10;268267]So you're saying today's high school dropouts are worth 14.8% less than the high school dropouts from 7 years ago?

I'd strongly disagree. I'd say they're equally worthless. But since this country has a minimum wage (in place to prevent crime), they need to keep it's value consistent with the rising cost of living.[/quote]Where is it said that they have a minimum wage to help fight crime? The reason was to set a small standard at which an employer must pay an employee. I guess what I have been trying to say is if you have a good work ethic the pay will come and that mimum wage should not be an issue. As I asked in an ealier post find me a hard worker who has worked for a year and is making minmum wage. I just know to many business owners that are willing to pay good wages but cannot find good employees and they all say that is a problem they all have. Of those business owners I know most are willing to hire hard working dropouts and most start at around $8.00 to $10.00 an hour but they still have problems finding good workers. Next time you are at a business such as a fast food resturant just look at how the employees just don't care and this helps to explain why they make so little.

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You have to remember also that not all areas of the country are like the Northern Virginia / Maryland area. Go up to Flint Michigan and try to find a job. You simply can't. That turns into a vicious circle. You can't get a job, so you can't afford to move away to a more expensive area.

Just because someone doesn't have a college diploma, do they deserve to be trash? I worked at a job where a lot of employees made 10 bucks an hour and under. Most of these people were extremely hard working, they'd put in more than their share of time, and deserved much more than they were given. They need to have a living wage, not a minimum wage.

By the way. If there's a family in poverty and if they have a child, they can only afford for one of the family members to work. The cost of child care is so high that you have to make 11 bucks an hour, 40 hours a week, in order for you to make any money after the cost of child care. That's a reason why a lot of single mothers get stuck on welfare. I know we had a single mother who was on welfare come to work with us, and she wanted nothing more than to work, but she couldn't afford it. Once her child was enrolled in school, she started to work.

Pegging everyone not making a huge living as "lazy" is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard in my life. Some people get put into bad situations, and many of us here have the families that can help us if we get into a rut? Some people don't have any sort of safety net. Hell, just getting sick for a month without insurance could put you in such a world of financial hurt you may never be able to recover.

I think we should look at some of the ways our country spends money, and think about how we could spend that better at home. The military is a double edged sword. Their budget is ridiculously huge, but they create a lot of jobs for some of the lower class we're talking about.

There are tons of places we could find money and get our standard of living into the top 20 again. We need to start looking at ourselves, and let other countries deal with themselves (within reason, of course)

Re: Tiered minimum wage?
 

[quote=Daseal;268347]You have to remember also that not all areas of the country are like the Northern Virginia / Maryland area. Go up to Flint Michigan and try to find a job. You simply can't. That turns into a vicious circle. You can't get a job, so you can't afford to move away to a more expensive area.

Just because someone doesn't have a college diploma, do they deserve to be trash? I worked at a job where a lot of employees made 10 bucks an hour and under. Most of these people were extremely hard working, they'd put in more than their share of time, and deserved much more than they were given. They need to have a living wage, not a minimum wage.

By the way. If there's a family in poverty and if they have a child, they can only afford for one of the family members to work. The cost of child care is so high that you have to make 11 bucks an hour, 40 hours a week, in order for you to make any money after the cost of child care. That's a reason why a lot of single mothers get stuck on welfare. I know we had a single mother who was on welfare come to work with us, and she wanted nothing more than to work, but she couldn't afford it. Once her child was enrolled in school, she started to work.

Pegging everyone not making a huge living as "lazy" is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard in my life. Some people get put into bad situations, and many of us here have the families that can help us if we get into a rut? Some people don't have any sort of safety net. Hell, just getting sick for a month without insurance could put you in such a world of financial hurt you may never be able to recover.

I think we should look at some of the ways our country spends money, and think about how we could spend that better at home. The military is a double edged sword. Their budget is ridiculously huge, but they create a lot of jobs for some of the lower class we're talking about.

There are tons of places we could find money and get our standard of living into the top 20 again. We need to start looking at ourselves, and let other countries deal with themselves (within reason, of course)[/quote]I did not say people not making very much money are lazy. I said that most people that have been in the work place and are only making Min wage are probably lazy and do not work hard enough to even advance past min wage. Yes there are areas where there are no jobs but that is the exception and not the rule. As I said in an earlier post try and find one hard worker making min. wage. Its hard to do becasue they advance to a higher pay because the employer does not want to loose them. Its harder to replace a hard worker than to just increase their pay which most employers know.