Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

I love to watch the Senior Bowl and the combine workouts, but do they really matter? Each year players watch their draft stocks rise and fall based on the Wonderlic, 40-times, etc. Take, for example, Terrell Suggs. Terrell Suggs was thought to be a top five selection in the 2003 draft, but slid down to the Ravens because of slow 40 times in pre-draft workouts. Vince Young's draft stock might have slipped a few spots due to his Wonderlic score (a wildly inaccurate predictor of football acumen). Players are now so polished up before player interviews at the Combine that I don't think that 10 minute player interviews can be that meaningful.

In my mind, the Senior Bowl is almost totally worthless as a scouting tool since it provides such a small "sample" and is a game involving very basic schemes, new coaches, and new teammates. The combine seems almost as useless. I would think that, save the medical examination portion of the combine, it too has minimal value.

Obviously I am not a scout, so would someone please explain how they are useful and why a player's draft stock can ascend or plummet so rapidly?

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

I am obviously not a scout either, and I do agree with how they are somewhat overrated. I do feel, however, since the media MAINLY has access to things like that, rather than records of personal team interviews, workouts, etc, the media(and Scouts Inc or whoever) tend to overhype those things.


In my opinion, which I think most teams do, you must look at everything altogether to determine if you want a particular player. What would matter to me the most would be how they did in college, level of competition, physical pluses and minuses, and interviews.

That was in no particular order.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;273206]I love to watch the Senior Bowl and the combine workouts, but do they really matter? Each year players watch their draft stocks rise and fall based on the Wonderlic, 40-times, etc. Take, for example, Terrell Suggs. Terrell Suggs was thought to be a top five selection in the 2003 draft, but slid down to the Ravens because of slow 40 times in pre-draft workouts. Vince Young's draft stock might have slipped a few spots due to his Wonderlic score (a wildly inaccurate predictor of football acumen). Players are now so polished up before player interviews at the Combine that I don't think that 10 minute player interviews can be that meaningful.

In my mind, the Senior Bowl is almost totally worthless as a scouting tool since it provides such a small "sample" and is a game involving very basic schemes, new coaches, and new teammates. The combine seems almost as useless. I would think that, save the medical examination portion of the combine, it too has minimal value.

Obviously I am not a scout, so would someone please explain how they are useful and why a player's draft stock can ascend or plummet so rapidly?[/quote]

Combines, in my opinion, are not useless because pro scouts know how fast the pro games are played. They, also, know what measurements it takes to play in the NFL at each position whether it's speed and agility, strength or the knowlege of the game itself.

College players have been playing against guys who are never going to see a NFL field and although they may have dominated them it does not mean that they will be a dominant professional football player. This system just as anything is in life is not totally fool proof but it does give them some kind of idea how to spend their money. It is similar to buying a car, you are going to check the engine, kick the tires, test drive it etc. etc. because you want to know what you are getting before you purchase it because once you buy it, it is yours to keep. Just because it looks good on the lot does not mean it is going to perform well on the road.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

the combine can help if college teams info is way out of wack with the truth. but it is all about the game. that should be the most important thing

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

well, it might all be good for getting a general feel for a guy's character and his physical characteristics. All that stuff also benefits the guys that aren't top 10 way more than the guys one sees every night on sports center. It gives scouts a chance to see guys that maybe don't have as much tape of their play, especially late bloomers and d3-d1aa guys

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

I suppose that these things just provide another small piece in the jigsaw for NFL teams trying to evaluate individual players. An outstandingly good, or bad, performance at the Senior Bowl or Combine can impact a rating. It must be a really tough job trying to pick in the draft as everyone will second guess almost every selection and a proper assessment can't be made for at least a couple of seasons.

Still, for my money it must be one of the most exciting parts of being involved in an NFL team - the chance to unearth talent that others didn't spot. Some teams definitely seem to be better than others at it.

Sadly, we don't know if the Redskins are any good or not as they always trade away top picks for crap veterans. I pray that they don't do that this time...

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;273206]I love to watch the Senior Bowl and the combine workouts, but do they really matter? Each year players watch their draft stocks rise and fall based on the Wonderlic, 40-times, etc. Take, for example, Terrell Suggs. Terrell Suggs was thought to be a top five selection in the 2003 draft, but slid down to the Ravens because of slow 40 times in pre-draft workouts. Vince Young's draft stock might have slipped a few spots due to his Wonderlic score (a wildly inaccurate predictor of football acumen). Players are now so polished up before player interviews at the Combine that I don't think that 10 minute player interviews can be that meaningful.

In my mind, the Senior Bowl is almost totally worthless as a scouting tool since it provides such a small "sample" and is a game involving very basic schemes, new coaches, and new teammates. The combine seems almost as useless. I would think that, save the medical examination portion of the combine, it too has minimal value.

Obviously I am not a scout, so would someone please explain how they are useful and why a player's draft stock can ascend or plummet so rapidly?[/quote]It's nice to see a guy play in a game coached by NFL teams, and see how he can play in those schemes.

But unless you are Jon Gruden or Mike Nolan, I don't think you've learned very much. You're spot on that a one game sample says very little when compared to 3-4 years of college film and statistics. Those things have to be the driving force behind a player's stock, not his workout numbers.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

The Senior Bowl and Combine should matter, but ultimately I think scouts take a little too much stock in these things and get too hyped or too down on certain players as a result.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;273276]The Senior Bowl and Combine should matter, but ultimately I think scouts take a little too much stock in these things and get too hyped or too down on certain players as a result.[/QUOTE]

I probably overstated my argument. My basic point is that I think that most draft boards should be set by now as 40-times, Wonderlic scores, and Senior Bowl performances are of far less significance than on the field performances in college. Perhaps the Senior Bowl and Combine can create red flags (e.g., a player who is recovering from a serious knee injury is examined and determined to have suffered permanent injury). However, I don't think player's stock should rapidly ascend or descend based on the Senior Bowl or Combine (save for players with red flags revealed at the Combine).

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

does the name mike mumala sound familiar? workout warrior, but couldnt play for crap

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=dmek25;273292]does the name mike mumala sound familiar? workout warrior, but couldnt play for crap[/quote]
or Adam Archuleta

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

One important thing you can get a peek at during the prep time leading up to the Super Bowl is the "coachability" of the various players. Many of the guys at the Senior Bowl are not the big name stars and lots of them are just hoping to get picked on Draft Weekend. So, if you're going to invest a fifth round pick in someone, it's nice to know that he's coachable and he takes instruction constructively and then takes those lessons onto the field.

Sure beats drafting some guy you only saw on film who surprisingly dropped to you because he's a head case and a royal pain in the a$$.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon;273406]One important thing you can get a peek at during the prep time leading up to the Super Bowl is the "coachability" of the various players. Many of the guys at the Senior Bowl are not the big name stars and lots of them are just hoping to get picked on Draft Weekend. So, if you're going to invest a fifth round pick in someone, it's nice to know that he's coachable and he takes instruction constructively and then takes those lessons onto the field.

Sure beats drafting some guy you only saw on film who surprisingly dropped to you because he's a head case and a royal pain in the a$$.[/QUOTE]

But, as has been pointed out, who besides Mike Nolan and Jon Gruden would know how "coachable" one of this year's prospects is based on the Senior Bowl?

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;273408]But, as has been pointed out, who besides Mike Nolan and Jon Gruden would know how "coachable" one of this year's prospects is based on the Senior Bowl?[/quote]

anyone who watches the full week's worth of practice and drill film.

the drills are more generally important than the game.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

I think its worthless personally, look at the names that have shot up the draft charts because of the combine:

Kyle Bollar
Idrees Bashiir
Dwayne Robertson
Ricardo Coclough

Now those guys arent terrible, but there far from worth where they were drafted at

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

Yeah, but you could also make a list of great players who flopped at the combine who commenced to flop in the pros. My point is that a certain percentage of players are busts and there's nothing you can do about it. The combine is just one more piece of the puzzle.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

I've always hated how players stock increased so much through the combine especially; and the senior bowl. I think there is nothing more that shows than the play on the feild in why you should or shouldnt bring someone on your team (see Archulletta,Adam).

I just think on the feild production means so much more.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=Gmanc711;273508]I've always hated how players stock increased so much through the combine especially; and the senior bowl. I think there is nothing more that shows than the play on the feild in why you should or shouldnt bring someone on your team (see Archulletta,Adam).

I just think on the feild production means so much more.[/quote]

Gmanc, you have a point, but Archuleta doesn't prove it. He's here as a free agent pick-up, not as a draftee who shot up the ranks thru a good combine. Arch had on-field production on tape to look at. Taylor Jacobs, on the other hand, . . . !

Were you saying that Adam's play on the field with the Rams was reason [I]not[/I] to bring him here? Which begs the question, did anyone in Ashburn study the tapes?

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

I've always thought that looking at a players 40 yard dash time is ridiculous. Wouldn't a 10 yard dash be more useful and relevant to what actually happens in a game? Explosive speed of the mark is better than speed over a relatively long distance for most players.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[QUOTE=marius;273750]I've always thought that looking at a players 40 yard dash time is ridiculous. Wouldn't a 10 yard dash be more useful and relevant to what actually happens in a game? Explosive speed of the mark is better than speed over a relatively long distance for most players.[/QUOTE]

I kinda agree but I think it is positional based. I mean a 40 yard dash is more relevant for WR'S, RB'S, CB'S, S, LB'S, and even TE to an extent. Where I think that a 10 yard dash would be better for your OL and DL players and even QB's.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=marius;273750]I've always thought that looking at a players 40 yard dash time is ridiculous. Wouldn't a 10 yard dash be more useful and relevant to what actually happens in a game? Explosive speed of the mark is better than speed over a relatively long distance for most players.[/quote]

they take 10, 20, and 40 times... and sometimes 60 or 100 yard times in addition.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

The only thing the combine is good for is collecting accurate height and weight measurements. A 40 yard dash is different from running in a football game; so much of your time depends upon your start, which is a track & field skill, not a football skill. Players run at different speeds when in pads, some go faster, some go slower.

Vertical leap is not very meaningful either. How high a player jumps is not the most important thing; it's the timing of his jump and how he adjusts to the ball in the air, and how he uses his body to shield defenders.

Bench press: meaningless. Players use leg strength when blocking and tackling a lot more than they use upper body strength.

Now the Senior Bowl, I think that can be meaningful. You can see players playing football. But I wouldn't put much stock in how coachable they are during the Senior Bowl, of course they'll put their best foot forward during that week to help them get more money.

In the end, watching the players play college games is the #1 way to evaluate them.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=Schneed10;273806]The only thing the combine is good for is collecting accurate height and weight measurements. A 40 yard dash is different from running in a football game; so much of your time depends upon your start, which is a track & field skill, not a football skill. Players run at different speeds when in pads, some go faster, some go slower.

Vertical leap is not very meaningful either. How high a player jumps is not the most important thing; it's the timing of his jump and how he adjusts to the ball in the air, and how he uses his body to shield defenders.

Bench press: meaningless. Players use leg strength when blocking and tackling a lot more than they use upper body strength.

Now the Senior Bowl, I think that can be meaningful. You can see players playing football. But I wouldn't put much stock in how coachable they are during the Senior Bowl, of course they'll put their best foot forward during that week to help them get more money.

In the end, watching the players play college games is the #1 way to evaluate them.[/quote]


and what about the senior bowl practices/one on one drills? the combine drill work? i've yet to hear a valid debunking of that, meaning there's at least some real value.

and things like 40 times are a semi useful stat - if one guy runs a 4.3, and another runs a 4.6, its pretty obvious which one is faster, even in pads. If someone runs a 4.35 and another guy runs a 4.31, obviously, the 40 times shouldn't be used as a basis for who to draft. either way, its just a piece to give you an idea of what potential maximums might be. game film is always the most important thing though - but sometimes that's hard to judge because of the competition (cooley played an awkward b-back position in div II, didn't he?).

oh yeah, we drafted carlos rodgers because of his cone times - oops.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;273887]and what about the senior bowl practices/one on one drills? the combine drill work? i've yet to hear a valid debunking of that, meaning there's at least some real value.[/QUOTE]

One-on-one drills reveal little about a player's football intelligence, courage, etc (i.e. the mental component). It's a heck of a lot easier for a WR to look good when he knows he's not going to be blindsided by a safety coming over the top. Such practices also don't reveal how DBs play in zone coverages. They don't reveal how OLs pick up unexpected blitzes. They don't reveal how LBs fight through traffic. The list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is some value in drills at the Senior Bowl and the combine, but that value is overhyped and minimal. If I ran a scouting team, I would definately send people to the Senior Bowl and Combine, but I would focus 99% of my energy on reviewing game tape.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

and when the tape is of division II or III talent?

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;273919]and when the tape is of division II or III talent?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I guess the Senior Bowl and combine matters more for those guys. Again, I'm not saying the Senior Bowl and Combine are totally worthless, just seriously overhyped.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=That Guy;273887]and what about the senior bowl practices/one on one drills? the combine drill work? i've yet to hear a valid debunking of that, meaning there's at least some real value.

and things like 40 times are a semi useful stat - if one guy runs a 4.3, and another runs a 4.6, its pretty obvious which one is faster, even in pads. If someone runs a 4.35 and another guy runs a 4.31, obviously, the 40 times shouldn't be used as a basis for who to draft. either way, its just a piece to give you an idea of what potential maximums might be. game film is always the most important thing though - but sometimes that's hard to judge because of the competition (cooley played an awkward b-back position in div II, didn't he?).

oh yeah, we drafted carlos rodgers because of his cone times - oops.[/quote]

But why do we care what the 40 times are, or how they perform in drills, when we can simply watch them play football on game tape?? If they're fast, it will show. If they're quick and agile, it will show. If they can jump, it will show.

It's not that 40 times aren't mildly useful, it's that they pale in comparison to the [B]real[/B] question: can these guys play football?

You don't answer that in drills, you don't answer that in workouts, you don't answer it at the combine. You answer it by playing football and showing you're good at it. The media and the internet overhype the combine and other workouts because libraries of game tape aren't readily available to their readers.

Putting stock in combine results is nothing short of retarded. Some guys played football well, and had good combine results. But you don't draft them because of the combine results. You draft them because they play football well. This stuff means jack squat.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=Schneed10;273929]But why do we care what the 40 times are, or how they perform in drills, when we can simply watch them play football on game tape?? If they're fast, it will show. If they're quick and agile, it will show. If they can jump, it will show.

It's not that 40 times aren't mildly useful, it's that they pale in comparison to the [B]real[/B] question: can these guys play football?

You don't answer that in drills, you don't answer that in workouts, you don't answer it at the combine. You answer it by playing football and showing you're good at it. The media and the internet overhype the combine and other workouts because libraries of game tape aren't readily available to their readers.

Putting stock in combine results is nothing short of retarded. Some guys played football well, and had good combine results. But you don't draft them because of the combine results. You draft them because they play football well. This stuff means jack squat.[/quote]

and again, that tape will show almost nothing in div II or div III where lots of players running 4.8s make 4.5 guys look like lightning. saying its totally worthless is completely retarded. its only a piece, but just dismissing it outright is awfully short sighted.

i mean, doughty had 120+ tackles, but he's slow and wouldn't be a good starting safety, even though he obviously played football well and had good tape. meanwhile cooley had 1260 yards receiving in div II and turned out to be great...

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=That Guy;273995]and again, that tape will show almost nothing in div II or div III where lots of players running 4.8s make 4.5 guys look like lightning. saying its totally worthless is completely retarded. its only a piece, but just dismissing it outright is awfully short sighted.

i mean, doughty had 120+ tackles, but he's slow and wouldn't be a good starting safety, even though he obviously played football well and had good tape. meanwhile cooley had 1260 yards receiving in div II and turned out to be great...[/quote]

It can't be dismissed outright, you're right, it serves a SMALL purpose. But watching a D II or D III player on film is still more valuable than testing his 40 time on a track. Speed isn't everything. Doughty was not drafted to be a starting safety. He was drafted because he is a tremendous form tackler, and he showed ON GAME TAPE that he has absolutely no fear when running down the field on kickoff coverage. And he made several great special teams plays for us.

NFL Scouts spend the majority of their time traveling to watch players play in games, or watching game film of them. So why the hell do fans spend so much time focusing on workout results? You'd get a lot more information by watching game film. If you're putting any more time into the workout results than simply glancing over the 40 times and checking the height and weight, then you're wasting your time.

And besides, how many D II or D III players get considered? It's 90-95% D I players you're scouting. Game tape of them shows how they look against their peers.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

i think alot of the importance on the 40 times is because alot of the schools always inflate numbers to make some of the players look that much better

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

Here's a snippet from this week's ESPN Insider magazine.

[B]Golic:[/B] "[Talking about the Combine] My dad used to say, 'The day you can bring a bench press out on the 50-yard line is when you start worrying about it.'"
[B]Greeny:[/B]They should cancel the combine and just watch game tape. To ignore the actual playing of football in the draft evaluation process is like choosing a restaurant based on the font on their menu.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

i don't know who in their right mind would ignore the "actual playing of football" and replace it solely with a combine workout instead...


the one thing it does do is get everyone talking and trotting out highlight and lowlight reels on prospects, a well as starting the process of swapping opinions, raising red flags, and generating evalutions.

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;273276]The Senior Bowl and Combine should matter, but ultimately I think scouts take a little too much stock in these things and get too hyped or too down on certain players as a result.[/quote]

Well the combines definately showed that Maurice Clarett didn't belong in the NFL.

Too bad the Broncos didn't realize that. :D
[U][/U]

Re: Should the Senior Bowl or the Combine Workouts Matter?
 

At least others agree.

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=2776319]ESPN.com - COLUMNIST/FORDE - Forde: Don't get lost in combine numbers[/url]

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_blogs/nfl/huddle_up/2006/2007/02/combine-craziness.html[/url]