Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

I know, I know, we've covered this a million times. However, tonight the Illinois Illini intend to retire their mascot, Chief Illiniwek (a chief in stereotypical Native American garb). At one point do the Redskins have to seriously consider dropping the moniker? I have always been very much against the idea because I grew up on the Skins, however, it seems like, more and more, teams around the country are becoming much more PC when it comes to the naming of their mascots and teams. The NCAA has forced a purge of Native American names.

Kornheiser and Wilbon have agreed that "Redskins" is absolutely the worst offense. They said Braves and Chiefs were borderline, Indians is really touchy and Redskins is clearly the worst. At this point it seems like only a matter of time before the Skins consider dropping the name. Not sure exactly how I feel about that. What about you all?

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

nope dont change it, who gives a rats ass. People need to chill out on the political correctness. Whats more offensive putting native americans on tiny reservations of the worst land the government could find and continues to put a completley blind eye to or a sports team that mainly white americans find offensive, as there are tribes that do say that the name envokes "a sense of pride." I mean the majority of people headwaying this kind of PC have nothing to do with it in the first place, instead of trying to change the name of a football team why dont you take some time and really try to help the native americans. Some freakishly scary number like, 70% of native americans become full blown alcoholics in adulthood, but hey, lets not try to fix a real problem lets make sure noone will be offended by a sports teams name or logo. I swear to god this country is getting dumber by the second.

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How about all those groups that voted that it was not offensive? I think that carries the biggest voice here.

I vote no. I don't care.

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isn't there some high school mascot that is offensive to Irish people? that is government run and nobody seems to care about it

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I'm sure if people dig enough, they can find offense in everything on this planet.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

Don't you think "Crusaders" might be offensive to Muslims?

How about "Cardinals" to folks whose male offspring may have been improperly touched by members of the clergy?

How about "Jets" to people who lost relatives in the attacks on the World Trade Towers on 9/11?

How about ... I can give you another half dozen examples. Finding a reason that someone MIGHT be offended is not difficult by any stretch of the imagination.

There is no genius in being able to "be offended" by a nickname or mascot. Anyone can do it. Listen to the arguments for and against any change and do so after you have stripped away all the emotional/rhetorical bullsh*t. Then, make up your mind...

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

Here's the question: Should anyone who claims to be offended for any reason automatically hold the position of superiority over the offender?

Should the offender be forced to acquiesce to the demands of the offended party?

See how far this can get? If I am offended by people who wear blue shirts, am I entitled to force someone into action simply by virtue of my being offended?

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

The name "Redskins" means a lot to me, as does the logo. The name and logo symbolize men like Sammy Baugh, Joe Gibbs, Charlie Taylor, John Riggins, et al. I've always thought that the logo was respectful towards Native Americans and simply cool.

Nevertheless, I would still love the team if they changed their name and logo. I don't think a name change would somehow cast off my memories or the team's affiliation with so many great games and great men.

Moreover, I do understand how people would be offended by the name. Surely a lot of people would be upset if a team was called the "Blackskins" and featured a Zulu warrior on the logo. I don't get particularly emotional about the issue because I think the people that attribute racist attitudes towards the logo and name are few in number and do not know much about the team. That said, I'm not Native American.

In any event, it's going to come down to money. If I recall correctly, according to federal law, trademarks that are racially derogatory are not subject to Intellectual Property Protections. If a U.S. Court determines that the "Redskins" name/logo are racially derogatory, the Redskins franchise will lose the exclusive right to license etc. its name/logo. That means that the team would lose a major source of revenue and, perhaps, be forced to re-name the team. However, I could honestly see Dan Snyder keep the name/logo and lose money just because he loves the team so much.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

Sheriff:

When much of this controversy started about 8-10 years ago, I suggested to some colleagues that there was a simple solution to the problem:


Keep the name Redskins.

Change the logo on the helmet to a potato.


No one liked the idea then; I doubt lots of folks would like it now. But it might stop the focus on the team name and allow people to focus on the team performance - - which is a lot more important to me. :soapbox:

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

yeah it has been Redskins since 1937 so i dont think that name is going anywhere

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My take has always been that its the Washington part of the name I root for, not the Redskins part.

What I have never understood is the passion with which predominantly white fans oppose a change. It clearly is the the most offensive moniker out there, so if in keeping with the zeitgeist they decide to go a more politically correct route, why is that such a tragedy? The Wizards name change was much worse - because the original name was not offensive and the new name and colors were so ridiculously stupid - and we all got over that pretty quickly.

To people who say I dont see what the big deal is with the name, isn't the inverse true as well? That its not that big a deal to change it?

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=djnemo65;279344]My take has always been that its the Washington part of the name I root for, not the Redskins part.

What I have never understood is the passion with which predominantly white fans oppose a change. It clearly is the the most offensive moniker out there, so if in keeping with the zeitgeist they decide to go a more politically correct route, why is that such a tragedy? The Wizards name change was much worse - because the original name was not offensive and the new name and colors were so ridiculously stupid - and we all got over that pretty quickly.

To people who say I dont see what the big deal is with the name, isn't the inverse true as well? That its not that big a deal to change it?[/quote]


The thing is, washington is typically not a basketball town, while yes there are a lot of wizards fans, this is football country. Furthermore the bullets were not one of the most storied programs in the NBA, pretty far from it actually, there isnt nearly as big of a wizards following than that of the skins. As much as maybe you wouldnt like to admit it, people in numbers mean a lot, and so does history and tradition, and when you combine the two its pretty damn hard to change.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;279344][B]It clearly is the the most offensive moniker out there[/B], so if in keeping with the zeitgeist they decide to go a more politically correct route, why is that such a tragedy? The Wizards name change was much worse - because the original name was not offensive and the new name and colors were so ridiculously stupid - and we all got over that pretty quickly.

To people who say I dont see what the big deal is with the name, isn't the inverse true as well? That its not that big a deal to change it?[/QUOTE]

In your opinion it's offensive. In my opinion it's not. I always heard it referred to the face paint Indians used to apply before going into battle. I am aware that the phrase 'red skin' was at one time used as a derogatory term, but there could be two different meanings.

But here's the key -- why should one party who claims to be offended always be in the position to dictate over the offending party and force them to change or cease what they were doing based solely on the perception of the one who was offended?

It's the principle that would get people upset if the offended parties got their way and succeeded in forcing the Redskins to change their name and logo.

Can we all get together as Redskins fans and suddenly become offended at the name "Cowboys" and blue star logos? What would prevent the Cowboys from being obligated to conceed to our demands?

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon;279341]Sheriff:

When much of this controversy started about 8-10 years ago, I suggested to some colleagues that there was a simple solution to the problem:


Keep the name Redskins.

Change the logo on the helmet to a potato.


No one liked the idea then; I doubt lots of folks would like it now. But it might stop the focus on the team name and allow people to focus on the team performance - - which is a lot more important to me. :soapbox:[/QUOTE]

That's the same thing Tony Kornheiser says. Are you TK? By the way, I prefer to have an optimistic, cheery mood when it comes to sports. I find your username offensive

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

It IS a big deal to change it. All this pc crap is bullshit. I will never be in favor of changing the name. And its not ONLY the white fans who oppose. have you done a poll on the fans that are white, black, asian,hispanic, indian and whatever else there is out there? I dont buy that for one second that. The only people who oppose this should focus their efforts on something worth a shit. Everyone I have ever known as a Redskin fan, black, white ,phillipino,INDIAN, think of [B]football [/B]only when they hear, read or say redskin. Im sick of it. There are truly soooooooooooooo many more things these people need to focus on, not this. I must step away from the computer now before I really say how I feel. Mic Light time out.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=SkinEmAll;279351]It IS a big deal to change it. All this pc crap is bullshit. I will never be in favor of changing the name. And its not ONLY the white fans who oppose. have you done a poll on the fans that are white, black, asian,hispanic, indian and whatever else there is out there? I dont buy that for one second that. The only people who oppose this should focus their efforts on something worth a shit. Everyone I have ever known as a Redskin fan, black, white ,phillipino,[B]INDIAN[/B], think of [B]football [/B]only when they hear, read or say redskin. Im sick of it. There are truly soooooooooooooo many more things these people need to focus on, not this. I must step away from the computer now before I really say how I feel. Mic Light time out.[/quote]
Native American....

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE]4 results for: redskin

–noun Slang: Often Disparaging and Offensive.
a North American Indian.
[Origin: 1690–1700, Americanism; red1 + skin]

red·skin (rěd'skĭn') Pronunciation Key
n. Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a Native American.

redskin
"American Indian," 1699. Red as the skin color of Native Americans is from 1587; red man is from 1587.

redskin
noun
offensive terms for Native Americans[/QUOTE]

Something to consider: these are the only results from dictionary.com. 3 out of 4 say "offensive" and not one references football.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;279364]Native American....[/QUOTE]

Holla!

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=jdlea;279367]Something to consider: these are the only results from dictionary.com. 3 out of 4 say "offensive" and not one references football.[/quote]
Then why did all those native american groups surveyed say the Washington Redskins were not offensive?

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;279370]Then why did all those native american groups surveyed say the Washington Redskins were not offensive?[/QUOTE]

I'm not really saying that they should change the name, I'm just presenting facts. I don't really think it matters what I think, it's gonna change. It doesn't matter how I feel about the situation, I think it's going to happen. I'm concerned about a lot more important things than the name of the football team in Washington.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;279348]In your opinion it's offensive. In my opinion it's not. I always heard it referred to the face paint Indians used to apply before going into battle. I am aware that the phrase 'red skin' was at one time used as a derogatory term, but there could be two different meanings.

But here's the key -- why should one party who claims to be offended always be in the position to dictate over the offending party and force them to change or cease what they were doing based solely on the perception of the one who was offended?

It's the principle that would get people upset if the offended parties got their way and succeeded in forcing the Redskins to change their name and logo.

Can we all get together as Redskins fans and suddenly become offended at the name "Cowboys" and blue star logos? What would prevent the Cowboys from being obligated to conceed to our demands?[/QUOTE]

In my opionion i dont give a crap. It has nothing to do with me, that's the point. The name Redskins has an ethnically specific context which has been deemed to be offensive by many, ergo the repeated efforts to change it. I just think there is something inherently patronizing about someone from outside of that ethnic group dictating to them what they should and should not be offended by. And I don't think I really need to take the time to break down the differences between Cowboys and Redskins right? That argument makes no sense. People arent suddenly becoming offended by the nickname.

But if someone told me that a lawn ornament I was displaying offended them for some reason I didn't understand, my reaction would be, well I think you may be overreacting, however I am going to err on the side of not offending you and get a different ornament. It's just an ornament after all.

As a Jew people frequently make comments that do legitimitaly offend me; but what bothers me more is their response when I point out to them that they should not say whatever it was they said. They respond, ooh, here comes the PC police, everybody gotta get in line. I think many of the responses surrounding this debate are similar.

And by the way, Redskins referers to the scalps of Indians which were rewarded with bounty payments.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;279370]Then why did all those native american groups surveyed say the Washington Redskins were not offensive?[/QUOTE]

The Native American community has mixed attitudes about it; some hate it, others don't mind it, and still others love it. A close family friend is a Menominee Indian and she cannot stand the name, thinks it's so unbelievably disrespectful, and says that if people knew the history of the term they wouldn't support it. She equates it to calling the team the Washington N----rs.

As I said earlier, I'm not so passionate about the issue and, frankly, I don't understand people who get so worked up about it one way or the other. I don't think the term Redskin is as bad as some other racial epithets, but it's not exactly 100% free of prejudice (at least when you consider the term's history).

It seems to be very similar to a Confederate Flag, only a lot more of us are familiar with the history of the stars and bars than the history of the term "Redskin." There are a lot of people who do not associate the Confederate Flag with racism or slavery, rather they think of the Southern lifestyle and their home states. There are others who are conscious of the flag's history and therefore understandably hate it.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;279376]As a Jew people frequently make comments that do legitimitaly offend me; but what bothers me more is their response when I point out to them that they should not say whatever it was they said. They respond, ooh, here comes the PC police, everybody gotta get in line. I think many of the responses surrounding this debate are similar.

And by the way, Redskins referers to the scalps of Indians which were rewarded with bounty payments.[/QUOTE]


I totally understand how you feel djnemo65. I find it somewhat interesting that so-called civil libertarians who get so riled up about the "PC police" think that no one has the right to get offended.

Again, I'm not all against the Redskins name/logo (in fact I love it), but I can understand why people would be upset by it.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;279377]The Native American community has mixed attitudes about it; some hate it, others don't mind it, and still others love it. A close family friend is a Menominee Indian and she cannot stand the name, thinks it's so unbelievably disrespectful, and says that if people knew the history of the term they wouldn't support it. She equates it to calling the team the Washington N----rs.

As I said earlier, I'm not so passionate about the issue and, frankly, I don't understand people who get so worked up about it one way or the other. I don't think the term Redskin is as bad as some other racial epithets, but it's not exactly 100% free of prejudice (at least when you consider the term's history).

It seems to be very similar to a Confederate Flag, only a lot more of us are familiar with the history of the stars and bars than the history of the term "Redskin." There are a lot of people who do not associate the Confederate Flag with racism or slavery, rather they think of the Southern lifestyle and their home states. There are others who are conscious of the flag's history and therefore understandably hate it.[/quote]
Yeah, I want to dig up an article with that survey and it's specifics. But I do see where you are coming from. Either way I think one of the guys brought up a good idea, how about continue with the name Washington Redskins, but change the logo on the helmet or remove it. That way both sides get a bit of what they want.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

By the same token a close friend of mine is Cherokee and he has no problem whatsoever with the name, so you have both ends of the spectrum.

But the lawsuit isn't about dropping the name, it's about dropping the trademark protection...which would be great for Summo who can sell his wallpapers worldwide!

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[quote=jdlea;279375]I'm not really saying that they should change the name, I'm just presenting facts. I don't really think it matters what I think, it's gonna change. It doesn't matter how I feel about the situation, I think it's going to happen. I'm concerned about a lot more important things than the name of the football team in Washington.[/quote]

Yes there are many things more important in life than the name of our favorite football team. But some things are worth fighting for. I just cant imagine such a small group who thinks they speak for all Indian nations, oh excuse me, Native frickin americans, winning a battle like this. It is a name of a football team, that what it is associated with. You dont see guys in a bar fight yelling, "im gonna kick yer ass you,you, redskin!!" I think its a waste of time and money and energy.

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[url=http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:o5w_sD-3LeIJ:www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf+Washington+Redskins+survey+native+americans+name&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a]Annenberg Public Policy Center 1 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATE: September 24, 2004 CONTACT:[/url]

[FONT=Times][SIZE=3][FONT=Times][B]Most Indians Say [B]Name[/B] of [B]Washington[/B] “[B]Redskins[/B]” Is Acceptable [/B]
[B]While 9 Percent Call It Offensive, Annenberg Data Show [/B]
[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=skinsguy;279330]I'm sure if people dig enough, they can find offense in everything on this planet.[/quote]
this has got to be the best post ever on this subject

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;279381]I totally understand how you feel djnemo65. I find it somewhat interesting that so-called civil libertarians who get so riled up about the "PC police" think that no one has the right to get offended.

Again, I'm not all against the Redskins name/logo (in fact I love it), but I can understand why people would be upset by it.[/QUOTE]

While I'm not really happy if they have to change the name, I really don't care. If it offends people, what is the harm in changing it. The problem, as some see it, is also the logo. While some believe it portrays nobility, it actually portrays "the noble savage" another stereotype that a lot of Native Americans resent. The fact is the name is considered derogatory and the team puts a caricature on the side of the helmet. Whether people wanna make a big deal about it or not is their prerogative. Should they choose to not care, then I don't care. However, if there becomes an uproar over a name change, I won't belittle anyone for feeling the way they do.

I'm part Asian and there are plenty of things that irritate/offend me. I don't feel the need to list them, but there are often caricatures of Asians portrayed and makes me almost irrate. I can understand where people can become offended because it's hard to understand when you're not a member of the race.

Example: Bill Parcells' comment about "Jap plays" really pissed me off. So, everyone making a big deal about Irvin's behavior...Parcells made a racist remark, I'm more upset that he's working for ESPN than anyone has a right to be over Michael Irvin. Well, until he made the comment about Italian Americans.

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[QUOTE=SkinEmAll;279385] You dont see guys in a bar fight yelling, "im gonna kick yer ass you,you, redskin!!"[/QUOTE]

I might if I ever saw Native Americans. I, personally, have never met one and no frame of reference as to how any of them feel as about the subject. I just don't think this is that big of a deal.

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You know, try as people might to make this into an "it's just a name" issue, it is what it is. Offensive. From the Native American people I've run across, every one said the same thing. They are offended by it. One guy even went as far as to say " it's like You hearing about the New York N-----." I thought that was an interesting take on it seeing as how I am an African American male. If they had to change it, what would they change it to?

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=hooskins;279386][URL="http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:o5w_sD-3LeIJ:www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf+Washington+Redskins+survey+native+americans+name&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a"]Annenberg Public Policy Center 1 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATE: September 24, 2004 CONTACT:[/URL]

[FONT=Times][SIZE=3][FONT=Times][B]Most Indians Say [B]Name[/B] of [B]Washington[/B] “[B]Redskins[/B]” Is Acceptable [/B][/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times][B]While 9 Percent Call It Offensive, Annenberg Data Show [/B][/FONT][/SIZE]
[/FONT][/quote]
Yeah, I've read that before. I really don't see the name changing...

I read some article by Bill Nye the science guy a while back... and he said he felt the name was offensive and wanted to help get it changed... kinda random.

F... Bill Nye.

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[QUOTE=Crat92;279394]You know, try as people might to make this into an "it's just a name" issue, it is what it is. Offensive. From the Native American people I've run across, every one said the same thing. They are offended by it. One guy even went as far as to say " it's like You hearing about the New York N-----." I thought that was an interesting take on it seeing as how I am an African American male. If they had to change it, what would they change it to?[/QUOTE]

I've heard a lot of people equate to that term and I think it's hard to understand because there is such a disconnect between most people and Native American history, myself included. I have no idea how offensive the term is. However, when I do hear say people say things like that, it makes me think maybe changing the name wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

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[quote=jdlea;279397]I've heard a lot of people equate to that term and I think it's hard to understand because there is such a disconnect between most people and Native American history, myself included. I have no idea how offensive the term is. However, when I do hear say people say things like that, it makes me think maybe [B]changing the name wouldn't be the worst thing in the world[/B].[/quote]
It's a friggin football team. Would anyone honestly not be able to wake up and cheer for our team if they weren't called the "redskins".?

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well i guess if they had to change the name because of some little group, who does NOT represent the majority of American Indians, we could call them the Washington PC ass-kissers. We could have a burg. & gold pair of ass kissing lips on the helment.

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[QUOTE=RobH4413;279402]It's a friggin football team. Would anyone honestly not be able to wake up and cheer for our team if they weren't called the "redskins".?[/QUOTE]

That's what i'm trying to say.

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Call them the Redskins and then just get rid of all native american logos...

that solves it.

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Or how about

Washington Skins and remove all association to native americans.

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Or we could leave it the way it is and tell everyone who doesnt like it to go to h*ll

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[quote=RobH4413;279402]It's a friggin football team. Would anyone honestly not be able to wake up and cheer for our team if they weren't called the "redskins".?[/quote]


Well actually, i would never stop calling them the Redskins regardless of what happens. And why should it even be considered? Seriously, if their was a overwhelming majority in favor of change, well thats hard to fight. Im not in favor of doing something just for the sake of being pc, its gotta have some real powerful, majority backing to it.