Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[url=http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/]Redskins Insider[/url]

Posted at 9:19 PM ET, 04/16/2007

The Lying Game

Okay, I am going to preface this by saying that this is the time of year when the NFL - land of super, double, top secrets - becomes the domain of loose lips. Everyone is lying about everything. Still, there is always a kernel of truth available out there, and here is what I heard from people today. So, with that caveat out there and this duly filed under the "slightly-more-that rumor" category, here's what I have heard:

Looks like the Skins would have to trade to first overall to get Calvin Johnson. I heard today that the Raiders will end up with Culpepper after MIA cuts him (also heard today the Fins asked the KC Chiefs for the proper sizes and specifications of Trent Green's equipment today). So the Raiders take the stud WR to replace Randy Moss - who probably goes to Green Bay - and Russell falls a bit.

Detroit loves Gaines Adams. Have visited with him three times. The coach there might see him as a reincarnation of Simeon Rice, who he coached in Tampa (although some people I talked to him see him as a situational pass rusher who is a third-down guy at the next level). They could probably trade down and still take him, and the Lions have been shopping this pick since right after the combine (when they first explored trades with the Redskins).

Cleveland is deadset on a QB (Lions might be gunshy about taking another Qb so high even if Russell is still there). Cleveland loves Quinn, but I hear the Dolphins do too, maybe even enough to trade up and get him should he still be there at 6th overall (hint, hint).

Tampa loves CJ, but could flirt with a QB, too. They might also end up trying to trade that pick if CJ and Russell are gone.

Arizona really loves the tackle, and his agent happens to be the same guy who represents the new head coach and offensive coordinator there.

So at 6 the Skins could very well have their pick of the defensive players. If they use the pick, I would be stunned if they took someone not names Landry or Okoye (both have completely wowed the team and again, I heard Landry had a killer workout Monday). After those two, Jamaal Anderson and Gaines Adamas would be the next two best options among some people out at The Park, with Calvin Johnson likely ending up the top player on the Skins overall draft board (that will be completed this week after the offensive draft meetings end this week - defense went last week, position by position).

Minn. is set on a Qb or Landry if available, I hear, and Houston will probably draft D, too.

Mia is thinking QB if possible as I said and Atlanta has fallen hard for Okoye (who played for the coach and D Line coach at Louisville) and Landry, enough so to trade up for either. Again, the Skins at 6 could be prime partners. Keep an eye on this, cause at 10, plus getting a second round pick, the Skins might find two really good players in such a trade.

Also, I hear the Skins will have something like 15 kids - on defense only! - at the facility this week, to say nothing of all the offensive players who have come through and still will come through. Is that overkill and indicative of the over-the-top nature of the guy who signs the checks? Is that too many bodies for any team to really handle in a limited time? Is it a little circus-like?

Yeah, probably, but that's the Skins. That's how they roll.

In the end, it doesn't really matter, as the film study, interviews and backround checks should carry the day. If they get the right guy or make a shrewd trade, then more power to them. There remain no shortage of people in that building really hope they trade down, but we'll see what the Snyder/Gibbs axis ends up doing in the war room.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

I sure like that Miami scenario. Oakland drafting CJ would seem to be pretty good for us.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

It's nice to get some real insider meat regarding the draft, rather than just having to pick at the same bones all the time.

I do like the sounds of LaRon Landry and he'd be a good addition over the long-term for us, but I agree with JLC, we're not going to have much of a defense this year if we don't help out the D-Line. Guys like Okoye or Anderson would be good long-term solutions at a position of greater need.

I'm torn. I really want to see us get Amobi Okoye, so I don't really like the idea of trading anywhere below Atlanta at 8. With Bobby Petrino sitting there at 8, I think he'd take Okoye over Landry if given the chance, just my hunch. But then again, it'd be pretty nice to drop down to 9 or something and get Jamaal Anderson and then pick up a 2nd or 3rd rounder to draft a serious G or something like that. As much as I want Okoye because DT is a bigger need than DE, we have other holes than just along our D-Line. I'm not OK with Todd Wade as a long term solution at G.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

I really hope we don't go with Landry. Great player but with so many quality d-lineman out there I'd hate to pass one of them up. But then again we do need more playmakers (INT's) in the secondary.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

While DT or DE is by far my biggest "want" for the draft, I'll go on record now by saying I won't be SAD if we get Landry either.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=Mattyk72;298578]I really hope we don't go with Landry. Great player but with so many quality d-lineman out there I'd hate to pass one of them up. But then again we do need more playmakers (INT's) in the secondary.[/quote]

Yeah I feel your sentiment. Landry would be a good player in the NFL, and teaming him with Sean Taylor gets me pretty excited.

But we need defensive line help SO badly, at DT most of all in my opinion. I just don't see how we're going to clog the middle against guys like Philly's Sean Andrews with 290 pound Kedric Golston in there. If we're vulnerable to the run up the middle, we're in serious trouble. This defense is predicated on stopping the run first and foremost.

Landry will make big plays. But it doesn't help much if teams can just rip off five yards every time they hand the ball off.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

The good news for me is that fact that if we decide to NOT go with DT, Fletcher is far more capable of holding down the middle than Marshall.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;298586]The good news for me is that fact that if we decide to NOT go with DT, Fletcher is far more capable of holding down the middle than Marshall.[/quote]

That's true. Fletcher has a better nose for the ball. And Fletcher has the brain to get guys lined up kind of like Pierce used to do. So Fletcher might have a big impact against the run, even with our current personnel.

But even given that, we're still better off with a serious run stuffer along the line. It would allow the defense a lot more flexibility. If we stick with Golston, we pretty much need someone to have his back at all times. Put a serious run stuffer in his place, now all of a sudden we can move Fletcher around a bit more.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

Looking back on previous seasons we did manage to do a good job stopping the run with the likes of Griffin, Salave'a, Wynn, Daniels, etc.

So what changed so much last year? Did these guys get old overnight and their games fell off that much?

Was the scheme to blame?

Injuries?

A combo of things?

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=Mattyk72;298590]Looking back on previous seasons we did manage to do a good job stopping the run with the likes of Griffin, Salave'a, Wynn, Daniels, etc.

So what changed so much last year? Did these guys get old overnight and their games fell off that much?

Was the scheme to blame?

Injuries?

A combo of things?[/quote]

Great question, definitely worth examining. I think:

- Joe Salave'a used to be sturdy against the run. I thought he was way underappreciated for a while. But the guy is older now and always has foot problems. His replacement was mainly Golston throughout the year, and while he's quick, he's not real big, and he got pushed around against power running games. Griffin was hurt at times throughout the year too. I remember against the Titans, we started Golston and Montgomery at DT. Travis Henry went for over 150 yards on the ground, a huge portion coming in the 4th quarter.

- Going from Wynn to Carter was a big downgrade in run support. Carter started to get a lot better, even in run support, at the end of the year, though. He had several games where he made 7, 8, 9 tackles at the end. It seems like Carter had a learning curve at the beginning. Along with his learning curve, the problem on his side was compounded by the fact that Warrick Holdman was worthless behind him. When Carter improved, the run defense improved. I do think our defensive line will be better this year, simply because Carter is better.

- We took a downgrade two years ago when we went from Pierce to Marshall in the middle. We didn't have the QB of the defense. In 2005, this was covered up by a healthy Griffin & Salave'a, and healthy Wynn & Daniels for the most part. These guys had continuity from the previous year and didn't have learning curves. They weren't the same as the 2004 defense, but they stopped the run well enough. In 2006, with Carter and Golston as newbies, we needed a QB of the defense to really help them out. We didn't have one.

- The problems in the secondary exacerbated the problem. We had to drop LBs into coverage more often than we liked. We couldn't attack the line of scrimmage. I think the LBs were on their heels quite often.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

I was just about to add the secondary limited how aggressive GW could be in run support with the corners.

All in all I think there were many factors in play last year for the huge fall of the D and it wasn't necessarily all regarding the personnel.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

what would you guys think of taking Landry then making a hard push for Kris Jenkins either by trade or when he gets cut?

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

We HAVE to go with Okoye at 6. I could see us making a deal with Atlanta and taking whoever is left at 8 though, even though Landry could go to the Vikings at 7 (if Okoye goes 6 to the Falcons). Then we'd miss out on two of the three best defensive players in the draft, actually the top 2 IMO.

I really don't want Jamaal Anderson. His body type is better than Gaines Adams, but I'm always VERY wary of the pass rusher who rushes past his senior year to enter the draft. Such is the telltale sign of the bust. If Carriker is there instead, take him.

But if we are picking between Landry and Okoye (and it should be an easy choice), at least we know that we are ending up with a good player.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;298612]what would you guys think of taking Landry then making a hard push for Kris Jenkins either by trade or when he gets cut?[/quote]I'd rather go with Ian Scott.

Trying to fix the DT through FA has been a slippery slope for this team for a long time. The problem on the DL isn't a gaping hole in talent as much as it is a bunch of players with flaws in their games who are aging. I mean, we can start Daniels, Griffin, Saleve'a, and Carter for one more year and get away with it, but if this becomes a lost season again, we really need to have a guy like Okoye to step in for Big Joe and start getting reps (and maybe start to rotate Golston and Montgomery in with Griffin). We don't want to find out after we lose our 7th game that we have no youth on the DL to work in. IMO, that would be a worst case scenario.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

Last thought on this article for now:

If Daunte Culpepper comes back healthy for Oakland, I mean, what a wonderful signing for them. I would still take Joe Thomas with the first overall pick if I signed Culpepper EVEN if they dealt Moss to GB, because I think Ronald Curry can get it done in this league, and so can Jerry Porter.

But a healthy Daunte Culpepper makes last years laughingstocks into a damn solid playoff contender, especially if that defense continues to improve.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

Mark it down: If we have to spend another year with Griffin and Salave'a in the middle with nobody other than Golston and Montgomery backing them up, we'll be gored up the middle from the very first carry, week in and week out.

The season will be over before it starts.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

There is no way this organization will draft a defensive lineman. It's just not attractive and exciting enough of a position to make the kind of media splash this organization craves.

Although I am 99.99999% certain he will be gone if the Skins stay at 6, if he is available the Skins will draft QB Jamarcus Russell.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

What's unfortunate is that I think the glitz of the big FA signing for Redskins nation is no longer enough. We're not enamored by free agents as much as we are WINS now. If the front office doesn't see it, then Danny needs to get his hand off his shaft to the thought of signing Calvin Johnson or anyone else we DON'T need. While we might not be coaches, there is one constant that most of the organization hasn't had:

We've been fans since we've been old enough to watch football.

We know what works and what doesn't and again, while we're not coaches, many of us are astute observers of the game.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=irish;298709]There is no way this organization will draft a defensive lineman. It's just not attractive and exciting enough of a position to make the kind of media splash this organization craves.

Although I am 99.99999% certain he will be gone if the Skins stay at 6, if he is available the Skins will draft QB Jamarcus Russell.[/quote]

Russell?

You're on crack.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=irish;298709]There is no way this organization will draft a defensive lineman. It's just not attractive and exciting enough of a position to make the kind of media splash this organization craves.

Although I am 99.99999% certain he will be gone if the Skins stay at 6, if he is available the Skins will draft QB Jamarcus Russell.[/quote]

Are you kidding? I am desperately looking for sarcasm here, but I can't find it. D-lineman is not an "attractive and exciting enough of a position..." ???? Is it more attractive and exciting to be 27th in the league against the run and have a banged-up, aging D-line with a weak pass rush? It's "attractive and exciting" to win football games. I will argue that regardless of where we end up picking in the first round, we will take the best D-lineman available.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

Besides, if they wanted to make a splash that badly they had plenty of chances to do so in free agency.

I don't see how they'll totally ignore need positions and go after a QB of all things.

That just makes no sense at all, even for this front office.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=irish;298709]There is no way this organization will draft a defensive lineman. It's just not attractive and exciting enough of a position to make the kind of media splash this organization craves.

Although I am 99.99999% certain he will be gone if the Skins stay at 6, if he is available the Skins will draft QB Jamarcus Russell.[/quote]

Eesh. Worst post ever.

Defensive End is an incredibly sexy position. It doesn't get much better than sacking the QB, it's like baseball's homerun. Maybe you were speaking about DT. But even that, I don't see it. A stud DT is a pretty splashy move. Warren Sapp in his prime ring any bells?

And there's no way we'll draft a QB. That's just ridiculous.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;298717]Is it more attractive and exciting to be 27th in the league against the run and have a banged-up, aging D-line with a weak pass rush?[/QUOTE]

That's a question for the coaches/front office -- I'm not convinced they're actually going to draft a D-lineman.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=Beemnseven;298765]That's a question for the coaches/front office -- I'm not convinced they're actually going to draft a D-lineman.[/quote]

I don't think the coaches are really worried about what's "attractive and exciting." I think they're worried about what puts us in the best position to win ball games. I was just quoting Irish.

All I'm saying is there's no denying it's a definite area of pressing need. So if we end up taking a guy like Landry and don't draft any D-lineman, do you not agree we have to take more steps to address the position? We'd have to get a guy after the June 1st cuts (maybe a Kris Jenkins).

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

Not so fast. It depends how they [I]really[/I] feel about Campbell. The quarterback position dwarfs all others by comparison and it is the one position we have not had a real player at forever. If Campbell pans out and we have Russell in the fold and he shows signs we could trade him for a LOT of draft picks. We might suffer for it next year but shoring up the QB position ala NE and Indy should be priority number one for the health and future of this franchise. It would be highly controversial but if they have serious doubts about Campbell then drafting a QB if he falls is not crazy but thinking ahead. If they are really confident in Campbell there is zero need and they won't do it unless we don't get any acceptable offers for the pick in terms of value. We must all face the fact that if Campbell doesn't pan out we are sunk. I for one think we should always draft BPA until we KNOW we have a real QB.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=TenandSix:Unacceptable;298769]Not so fast. It depends how they [I]really[/I] feel about Campbell. The quarterback position dwarfs all others by comparison and it is the one position we have not had a real player at forever. If Campbell pans out and we have Russell in the fold and he shows signs we could trade him for a LOT of draft picks. We might suffer for it next year but shoring up the QB position ala NE and Indy should be priority number one for the health and future of this franchise. It would be highly controversial but if they have serious doubts about Campbell then drafting a QB if he falls is not crazy but thinking ahead. If they are really confident in Campbell there is zero need and they won't do it unless we don't get any acceptable offers for the pick in terms of value. We must all face the fact that if Campbell doesn't pan out we are sunk. I for one think we should always draft BPA until we KNOW we have a real QB.[/quote]

But that would be repetitive. Everyone was so shocked when we gave Brunell all that money and still went out and traded multiple draft picks to move up to get Campbell in the first round. Brunell was a proven starter in the league at that time, plus we had Ramsey, and yet we still got Campbell b/c we needed a future (Ramsey was a Spurrier/Snyder pick, Gibbs was never sold on him). I think the coaches are now confident in JC. Signing a young, effective backup wouldn't be a bad idea in the near future, but taking another QB in the 1st round would be a waste. If we did, it would be the 3rd time in 6 years. No one does that, especially a team with as few draft picks as the Skins.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

What about Joe Thomas from Wisconsin, he is amazing no matter what, even though I am a Badger fan.

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[quote=Mattyk72;298715]Russell?

You're on crack.[/quote]
I'll second that! Drugs kill brain cells, not any left on that statement.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;298766]All I'm saying is there's no denying it's a definite area of pressing need. So if we end up taking a guy like Landry and don't draft any D-lineman, do you not agree we have to take more steps to address the position? We'd have to get a guy after the June 1st cuts (maybe a Kris Jenkins).[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. They should get both Jenkins and Ian Scott if they don't use their draft picks for D-linemen. My personal feeling is that Griffin and Salave's are both done; that they have been totally milked for all they're worth. The biggest fear I have is that the coaching staff believes they are fine with the current front four.

If Ian Scott is available now, why haven't they snatched him up? They've shown interest in every other aspect of defense (linebacker and secondary) other than the defensive line. That's why I'm starting to have this feeling that maybe they're not even considering DE or DT. Maybe they felt like last year's drafting of Golston and Montgomery, along with the signing of Andre Carter shored up any weaknesses at the front four.

The more I hear about Landry, the less irate I feel like I would be if we actually drafted him -- but that's assuming they pick up a defensive tackle or end somehow, somewhere. I'd be fitted for a straight-jacket if they completely ignore the front four and went for Landry then did something really stupid and pulled off a trade for an offensive guard or something.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=Beemnseven;298775]Absolutely. They should get both Jenkins and Ian Scott if they don't use their draft picks for D-linemen. My personal feeling is that Griffin and Salave's are both done; that they have been totally milked for all they're worth. The biggest fear I have is that the coaching staff believes they are fine with the current front four.

If Ian Scott is available now, why haven't they snatched him up? They've shown interest in every other aspect of defense (linebacker and secondary) other than the defensive line. That's why I'm starting to have this feeling that maybe they're not even considering DE or DT. Maybe they felt like last year's drafting of Golston and Montgomery, along with the signing of Andre Carter shored up any weaknesses at the front four.

The more I hear about Landry, the less irate I feel like I would be if we actually drafted him -- but that's assuming they pick up a defensive tackle or end somehow, somewhere. I'd be fitted for a straight-jacket if they completely ignore the front four and went for Landry then did something really stupid and pulled off a trade for an offensive guard or something.[/quote]

Yeah, I hear ya. Landry would be great provided we still significantly address the D-line. I know Gibbs is obsessive about preparation and planning. Maybe he has a solid plan in place about what to do with the D-line, and maybe nothing has happened yet to put a kink in his plan. Wishful thinking? I really, really think we should take a good hard look at Kris Jenkins, even if we do draft a d-lineman.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

Griffin is done?

Dude just turned 30.

He's no spring chicken but I think he's far from done.

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[quote=Mattyk72;298785]Griffin is done?

Dude just turned 30.

He's no spring chicken but I think he's far from done.[/quote]

I dont know if he is done due to age, but his performance has been way below expected.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;298790]I dont know if he is done due to age, but his performance has been way below expected.[/QUOTE]

I hear what you're saying Hoo, but couldn't we say the same thing for the entire defense?

He had a decent year in 05......I wouldn't write him off yet.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=hooskins;298790]I dont know if he is done due to age, but his performance has been way below expected.[/quote]

Grif isn't done by any stretch. He has several good years left, the entire Defense was awful last year. Mostly due to injuries/no depth and the guys that can't be good won't be around. Holdman,Rumph,Arch,etc........

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

the only position in the draft this year that is really strong is defensive line. well, guess what? thats exactly what the skins need. if branch wasn't a lazy slob, he would be the pick. but the skins almost cant go wrong drafting any of the top 5 d linemen

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[QUOTE=irish;298709]There is no way this organization will draft a defensive lineman. It's just not attractive and exciting enough of a position to make the kind of media splash this organization craves.

[/QUOTE]

But Irish, football has changed. Fans are so sophisticated now, what with Madden, NFL Network, and around the clock coverage, they understand the importance of defense, oline, etc. How many Skins fans booed in 2004 when we chose a safety over an explosive tight end? My Dad did, but he's from the 1960's.

How often do you go talk to a guy with a Skins hat in the bar and he doesn't know what he's talking about? That NEVER happens!

People talk about Snyder's marketing brilliance and his ability to keep the fan base excited every year, despite a lack of success on the field. Well how much of this new free agent austerity this season is a response to outrage from the fan base over some of last year's moves? I would argue at least some (Lance Briggs notwithstanding).

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;298785]Griffin is done?

Dude just turned 30.

He's no spring chicken but I think he's far from done.[/QUOTE]

So it's impossible for a player to top out before age 30?

Let me clarify though. When I say Cornelius Griffin is "done", I mean he is done being the penetrating force we saw in '04 and '05. He's still serviceable, and we shouldn't kick him off the team or anything. But he definitely needs help. I'd be shocked if they intend to rely on him as the chief run-stopper past 2007.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

I like the switch with Atlanta plus a second cuz then they could get Landry and then a dlineman like Moss, Spencer, McDonald, or whomever else @dl that might be available when they'd make the 2nd round pick. plus pick up Ian Scott.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;298729]Besides, if they wanted to make a splash that badly they had plenty of chances to do so in free agency.

I don't see how they'll totally ignore need positions and go after a QB of all things.

That just makes no sense at all, even for this front office.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying it makes sense or would be a good move (it would be maybe the dumbest move from an organization that has akmost become synonomous with dumb moves) but I really believe if he's there it will hapen. There is no way Danny will be able to pass him up.

I just dont think there were any really big free agents this time that would create the media frenzy JR would and the skins are all about media frenzy. If the football works out thats a bonus.

Re: Latest from JLC: The lying game
 

[quote=Beemnseven;298857]So it's impossible for a player to top out before age 30?

Let me clarify though. When I say Cornelius Griffin is "done", I mean he is done being the penetrating force we saw in '04 and '05. He's still serviceable, and we shouldn't kick him off the team or anything. But he definitely needs help. I'd be shocked if they intend to rely on him as the chief run-stopper past 2007.[/quote]

Of course it's not impossible.

When you said he's done, that to me sounded like you thought his playing days are over.