Disgusted with Bonds?
 

Is anyone else disgusted with Bonds and his run at Aaron? There is no doubt in my mind he is a roid head, and he cheated to get where he is. I think this is a disgrace to baseball, and an insult to a truly great baseball player in Aaron. I know Aaron would never never say anything negative about this cause he's a class act, but he's got to be annoyed with it. He's only 15 away, and he's making me wish something I would never wish on anyone...a career ending injury. I know it's wrong, but the integrity of the sport is in jeopardy...we should not exhault players like Bonds who cheated to get where he is. It's wrong.
What does everyone else think?

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

Wrong section, but I guess I am a bit. I dont know what to make of the whole situation. It is very complicated

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;301019]Wrong section, but I guess I am a bit. I dont know what to make of the whole situation. It is very complicated[/QUOTE]

Where should have I started this thread if not here?

How is it complicated? Explain.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

Sports section.

And I dont know, I think I am talking about Bonds and the NOF. Because he was good before he took steroids, and how do y uo know if others didnt take steroids. It is a big mess.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;301024]Sports section.

And I dont know, I think I am talking about Bonds and the NOF. Because he was good before he took steroids, and how do y uo know if others didnt take steroids. It is a big mess.[/QUOTE]

What's NOF? Or did you mean HOF?
But no one else is going for Aaron's record, just Bonds.
Bonds was on his way to being one of the best all around players ever until he took steroids...now I will never count him as the best.
I can see what you are saying cause who knows just how many poeple took roids...but again I say, you don't see Giambi hitting 74 homers (or even 61), or going after Aaron's record...if he was, it would be about him taking roids. This is just like Canseco hitting 40/40 first...I no longer believe he is the first 40/40 player after he admitted to steroids.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

I've moved this to Other Sports.

Ideally, you'd like someone like Ken Griffey Jr. to have gotten the record. And A-Rod could end up crushing the record anyway.

However, like Hoo said the general consensus is that whatever Bonds has used he didn't start using until after 1998. And if you cut off his career at that point he'd still be a Hall of Famer.

Furthermore, what he did may have been immoral but he didn't do anything that no one else could have done either. It's not his fault it was available and MLB chose not to test for it. As we've seen in the past couple of years pitchers have probably been the worst offenders of steroids abuse anyway.

The fact that he is a surly person makes it worse for Bonds but he shouldn't be found any more guilty than all those other players of that time that had access to and allegedly abused steroids.

This, to me, is just like the salary cap/revenue sharing issue. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Baseball needs Selig gone

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;301028]I've moved this to Other Sports.

Ideally, you'd like someone like Ken Griffey Jr. to have gotten the record. And A-Rod could end up crushing the record anyway.

However, like Hoo said the general consensus is that whatever Bonds has used he didn't start using until after 1998. And if you cut off his career at that point he'd still be a Hall of Famer.

Furthermore, what he did may have been immoral but he didn't do anything that no one else could have done either. It's not his fault it was available and MLB chose not to test for it. As we've seen in the past couple of years pitchers have probably been the worst offenders of steroids abuse anyway.

The fact that he is a surly person makes it worse for Bonds but he shouldn't be found any more guilty than all those other players of that time that had access to and allegedly abused steroids.

This, to me, is just like the salary cap/revenue sharing issue. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Baseball needs Selig gone[/QUOTE]

There is a flaw in that logic...using steroids has ALWAYS been illegal in baseball. AND it's illegal in the USA. So it's not like "anyone else could have done it". It was illegal to do, and Bonds has disgraced baseball for doing so. Let's keep the issue where it belongs. Yes, I will agree Selig dropped the ball...but you blame the person doing the illegal action, no one else.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;301036]There is a flaw in that logic...using steroids has ALWAYS been illegal in baseball. AND it's illegal in the USA. So it's not like "anyone else could have done it". It was illegal to do, and Bonds has disgraced baseball for doing so. Let's keep the issue where it belongs. Yes, I will agree Selig dropped the ball...but you blame the person doing the illegal action, no one else.[/QUOTE]

But it wasn't tested for right? And I can't imagine he's the only player to use steroids. And how is what he did necessarily worse than scuffing a ball, or even stealing signs? If someone like Gaylord Perry can be in the HOF, then so can Bonds.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

Baseball lost its integrity a long time ago. Just another drop in the bucket.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;301047]But it wasn't tested for right?[/quote]

From what I understand, it was tested for, but it was no secret as to when they tested...beginning of year I beleive.

[quote]And I can't imagine he's the only player to use steroids. [/quote]

Again, not the point. If Giambi was going for the record, I'd say the same thing. We all know he's not the only player to do roids...he's the only one that is going after a covetted record, and a record that is likely the biggest in all of baseball, and could be argued the biggest in all of sports.

[quote]And how is what he did necessarily worse than scuffing a ball, or even stealing signs? If someone like Gaylord Perry can be in the HOF, then so can Bonds.[/QUOTE]

Canseco is not going to the hall because he took roids, and he hit 462 homers, and stole 200 bases...do you know how many people have done that in history? Why not allow him in when he was the first 40/40 player? He is a 6 time all star, a ROY and an MVP, a 4 time silver slugger award winner too. You can't compare scuffing the ball occasionally to taking steroids...or stealing signs...especially since stealing signs is NOT against the MLB rules.

McGwire and Palmiero likely won't make it either due to suspected steroid use. Even though McGwire admitted to taking Andro (which was a legal MLB substance at the time he took it).

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

But scuffing the ball is against major league rules. And Perry made an entire career out of spitballs, totally illegal. Isn't it?

Let me ask you this though, does it bother you that he used it or that he used it and is going for the record? Suppose he used it and was closing in on 600 homeruns instead would you care?

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;301054]But scuffing the ball is against major league rules. And Perry made an entire career out of spitballs, totally illegal. Isn't it?[/quote]
I am unsure as to the rules at that time (I wasn't born until 75). However, if he did use it as often as you say, and it was against the rules, then I say take him out of the hall.

[quote]Let me ask you this though, does it bother you that he used it or that he used it and is going for the record? Suppose he used it and was closing in on 600 homeruns instead would you care?[/QUOTE]

Yes, it bothers me that they use it. That means some kid busting his butt the legal way won't make it cause someone is doing it the illegal way...however, I am 10 times more upset that he is trying to taint a record, especially such a big time record like the all time homer record. I was upset about it when he hit 600, and now I am irrate that he's going to beat 755.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

I am a 1975'er as well. But I vividly remember Perry being kicked out of a game for doctoring the ball back in 1982. And I've heard and read that he'd been doing that for years.

Would it bother you if say Aaron Boone said he was using roids, knowing he's nowhere close to any record?

Baseball is interesting in that it's so numbers oriented. I mean where was the outcry for all the Carolina Panthers found to have ordered roids and HGH during their super bowl year?

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

I applaud you for bringing this up at a time when nobody seems willing to call out Bonds.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

Bonds isn't the problem, baseball is. they knew what was going on, but had no language written into the union contract that made steroids testable. the whole long ball thing with McGuire and Sosa made baseball sexy again, and the owners were loving it. baseball, with a screwed up drug policy, and no salary cap, is a messed up sport

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

How can I get upset at a man who shrank his weenie just stroke a stick better? He's the dumbass who is and will pay for his mistakes in more ways than one.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;301047]But it wasn't tested for right? And I can't imagine he's the only player to use steroids. And how is what he did necessarily worse than scuffing a ball, or even stealing signs? If someone like Gaylord Perry can be in the HOF, then so can Bonds.[/quote]

Everybody does it, so it's ok??? Good call

Besides, look a the fine BIG head he got out of the deal.
I heard on a sports talk show the other day that Hank Aaron apparently attends many baseball events, as a guest, for the good of baseball. They added, that if Bad Barry breaks his record, he will NOT be in attendance. "he will be fishing".

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;301080]Bonds isn't the problem, baseball is. they knew what was going on, but had no language written into the union contract that made steroids testable. the whole long ball thing with McGuire and Sosa made baseball sexy again, and the owners were loving it. baseball, with a screwed up drug policy, and no salary cap, is a messed up sport[/QUOTE]

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The problem is baseball turning a blind eye to the steroid problem until it was too late. Exacerbating the problem, as I said earlier, is the fact that Bonds is generally considered an ass. If he was some fun-loving, jovial guy I'm sure most people would look at this differently.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

I agree with SmootSmack that this is compliacted. While I do think it is wrong that Bonds is now going to break this record chiefly because he took steroids there is a lot of me that thinks that a huge amount of players were doing this and to single out Bonds just because of who he is and what he is doing is unfair. Considering that a large amount of players were doing this one could argue that to compete a player HAD to do this. Now it is complicated. I blame the players in general for creating the atmosphere where streoid use was not only acceptable but almost requires. I blame MLB for doing nothing to stop it. Performance enhancement has been in baseball for decades but I think it is time they start getting rid of all this legacy crap and move into the 21st century when it comes to how to operate the sport.

One thing everyone needs to remember is that baseball is FAR FAR FAR different in the way it is run than any other sport. Due to that matter in which it was organized and started it is much more loosely managed from a central source(MLB). It is almost like all the teams are totaly separate and operate alone. This means that MLB itself is very weakened. This is the way it has always been. I think Selig is pathetic but when was the last time MLB had a perceived good commisioner? Yeah it has been decades because the owners work to keep the commissioner relatively weak compared to other commisioners. It is time they started operating this like one business instead of 32 separate ones. Then issues like steroids can get weeded out by a strong central fiugure without fear of being fired.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

A lot of people are indicting Barry Bonds in the court of public opinion for essentially cheating; and they're doing this with the idea in mind of protecting the integrity of baseball.

But by going after Bonds these people are really saying that the sport in general has no more integrity, because if you go after Bonds then you have to go after McGwire, Sosa (corked bats), Gaylord Perry, Ken Caminiti, Canseco, and any pitcher who's ever used sandpaper or otherwise doctored a ball. You can't pick and choose who you want to eject from the hall because they're "going after a hallowed record." That makes no sense and is prejudiced against someone you perceive to be an asshole.

If you go after Bonds, you have to go after every cheater and weed them all out of the HOF voting process. You have to wipe Bonds' 73, McGwire's 70, and Sosa's 66 HRs from the books and give the record back to Maris. And then once you're done, are you even sure you've gotten every cheater? How do you determine for sure who was a cheater? Based on your "opinion"?

You go after Bonds alone, then you've ruined the integrity of the game just as bad as steroids themselves has. You send the message that it's OK to cheat, just don't be an asshole like Barry Bonds and don't break Aaron's record, and you're cool in my book.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;301090]A lot of people are indicting Barry Bonds in the court of public opinion for essentially cheating; and they're doing this with the idea in mind of protecting the integrity of baseball.

But by going after Bonds these people are really saying that the sport in general has no more integrity, because if you go after Bonds then you have to go after McGwire, Sosa (corked bats), Gaylord Perry, Ken Caminiti, Canseco, and any pitcher who's ever used sandpaper or otherwise doctored a ball. You can't pick and choose who you want to eject from the hall because they're "going after a hallowed record." That makes no sense and is prejudiced against someone you perceive to be an asshole.

If you go after Bonds, you have to go after every cheater and weed them all out of the HOF voting process. You have to wipe Bonds' 73, McGwire's 70, and Sosa's 66 HRs from the books and give the record back to Maris. And then once you're done, are you even sure you've gotten every cheater? How do you determine for sure who was a cheater? Based on your "opinion"?

You go after Bonds alone, then you've ruined the integrity of the game just as bad as steroids themselves has. You send the message that it's OK to cheat, just don't be an asshole like Barry Bonds and don't break Aaron's record, and you're cool in my book.[/QUOTE]


Brilliant.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

This issue is being way over complicated. It's not hard at all. It's really quite simple.
One of the cornerstones of the game that earned the most prestigous record in all of baseball honestly (and has stood for 30 years +-) is about to lose it. He will lose it to a man who can not make the same claim. He will not have earned it honestly..........simple. Q. will baseball allow this to happen and further taint the game??? A. Of course they will.
In NO way does bonds deserve the record

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;301090]...just don't be an asshole like Barry Bonds...[/QUOTE]

I think that's the biggest problem: most people think Bonds is an asshole (including me). He cannot handle the media very well. If he were a genuine nice guy, then I think there would be less criticism.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;301097]This issue is being way over complicated. It's not hard at all. It's really quite simple.
One of the cornerstones of the game that earned the most prestigous record in all of baseball honestly (and has stood for 30 years +-) is about to lose it. He will lose it to a man who can not make the same claim. He will not have earned it honestly..........simple. Q. will baseball allow this to happen and further taint the game??? A. Of course they will.
In NO way does bonds deserve the record[/QUOTE]

What are they supposed to do then? Kick him out of the game because they think he cheated? Remeber at this point while it is pretty obvious to everyone he cheated it is still all just supposition. If they kick him out then what do they do from there? Kick everyone else out that they "think" cheated. Then wipe out all the records. I think you are way OVERsimplyfing the soultion. Maybe the issue is simple to you but the soultion certainly isn't. Otherwise there'd have been one by now.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

The legal Maxim "Innocent until proven guilty" pertains to criminal proceedings. It has no place here.
barry and his friends are guilty. Black ball their asses out and save baseball, AND an honest man's legacy. Let the sharks in the business figure out how to accomplish it.
Hmmmm, I wonder what Tanya Harding and her friends are doing?

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;301110]The legal Maxim "Innocent until proven guilty" pertains to criminal proceedings. It has no place here.
barry and his friends are guilty. Black ball their asses out and save baseball, AND an honest man's legacy. Let the sharks in the business figure out how to accomplish it.
Hmmmm, I wonder what Tanya Harding and her friends are doing?[/QUOTE]

I would agree with you if "barry and his friends" weren't half of the league's players. Kicking a few cheating people out of any sport helps save the integrity but when the problem is far beyond a few then you are talking about totally destroying the game entirely. I am not excusing anyone's actions. I am simply trying to get you to realize the reality of the situation. There is no way they can simply kick one guy out without confronting the real notion that the problem was considerably widespread and would have to do something similar to all cheaters. Maybe that is the way to go but they need to be ready for some long and lean years in baseball if they start really cleaning the game up that way. I would think they would rather simply let the testing wash those guys out and save the game that way. That solution presents issues like Bonds breaking the record but over all it is better than basically flushing decades records and players stats down the drain and saying to everyone "Our game was a farce for years".

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

If no one can prove Bonds took roids then there is nothing that can be done. Its that simple.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[quote=FRPLG;301118]I would agree with you if "barry and his friends" weren't half of the league's players. Kicking a few cheating people out of any sport helps save the integrity but when the problem is far beyond a few then you are talking about totally destroying the game entirely. I am not excusing anyone's actions. I am simply trying to get you to realize the reality of the situation. There is no way they can simply kick one guy out without confronting the real notion that the problem was considerably widespread and would have to do something similar to all cheaters. Maybe that is the way to go but they need to be ready for some long and lean years in baseball if they start really cleaning the game up that way. I would think they would rather simply let the testing wash those guys out and save the game that way. That solution presents issues like Bonds breaking the record but over all it is better than basically flushing decades records and players stats down the drain and saying to everyone "Our game was a farce for years".[/quote]

Agreed 1000%.

Hog1, you are WAY oversimplifying. I mean if you don't care at all about being fair and evenhanded, then yeah I guess you can strip Barry Bonds of all his records and achievements. Of course then you'd be telling baseball players that it's OK if you use steroids to:

- Falsely boost your production to make a lot more money
- Help your team win by using banned substances
- Rack up stats that could get you into the HOF
- And this is all OK as long as you don't break Hank Aaron's record

It makes no sense. You take one guy down, you have to take them all down.

Now if we get PROOF that Bonds cheated, rather than just supposition, then yeah, Baseball has every right to take Bonds out of the record books. But right now the best we have is supposition (albeit strong supposition, but it's supposition nonetheless) by some reporters that Barry took steroids from his trainer. If you're going to go after someone just because you suspect them, don't you have to go after a lot of other guys that are suspect? Starts to sound a lot like the Salem Witch Hunt, going after people because you are suspicious.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[quote=firstdown;301122]If no one can prove Bonds took roids then there is nothing that can be done. Its that simple.[/quote]

Gotta love it when I type paragraphs and paragraphs, and then someone comes along and posts a one-sentence post that carries more weight and relevance than I ever could. Well said, firstdown. That is the bottom line, PROOF.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

first, let me say i do not like Barry Bonds. but, he was the last of the great drug abusers from the late 90's and early 2000's that is still around. so he takes the all of the frustration that the public would really like to lay on the McGuire's and the Sosa's of mlb, that are now retired

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

I personally do not know of a "clean" way out of this. However, I would not allow bonds to achieve the honor until an investigation in the steroid is blah, blah, doubletalk, blah, complete.
You just.........can't. In spite of what's easy, convenient, somtimes you MUST do the hard thing. The RIGHT thing. Stand up and be counted MLB. In the long run, I think more good than bad will come out of where the the fans are concerned.
Nuremberg trials for MLB? If not they can drown in their own vomit.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[quote=Schneed10;301126]Agreed 1000%.

Hog1, you are WAY oversimplifying. I mean if you don't care at all about being fair and evenhanded, then yeah I guess you can strip Barry Bonds of all his records and achievements. Of course then you'd be telling baseball players that it's OK if you use steroids to:

- Falsely boost your production to make a lot more money
- Help your team win by using banned substances
- Rack up stats that could get you into the HOF
- And this is all OK as long as you don't break Hank Aaron's record

It makes no sense. You take one guy down, you have to take them all down.

Now if we get PROOF that Bonds cheated, rather than just supposition, then yeah, Baseball has every right to take Bonds out of the record books. But right now the best we have is supposition (albeit strong supposition, but it's supposition nonetheless) by some reporters that Barry took steroids from his trainer. If you're going to go after someone just because you suspect them, don't you have to go after a lot of other guys that are suspect? Starts to sound a lot like the Salem Witch Hunt, going after people because you are suspicious.[/quote]

If he's guilty, Bonds has to go down. If he's guilty-no record. If Mcguire, and the rest get caught in the investigation, so be it.
Does anybody think MLB has any integrity left? I would gain renewed respect them for them if they pursued it. I don't think I would be in the minority.
If they have to have their own inquisition, let's get started.

By the way:

Originally Posted by [B]firstdown[/B] [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/other-sports/17947-disgusted-with-bonds-post301122.html#post301122"][IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG][/URL]
[I]If no one can prove Bonds took roids then there is nothing that can be done. Its that simple[/I]

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

I'm not disgusted with Barry Bonds, no the's his body his choice. Was he wrong ? YES. I actually like to watch the guy hit. I remember when he was going for McQuire's single season record and his eye for pitches amazed me. Steroids or not the guy is a damn fine ball player. Baseball has always been a sport of cheats to me, just my opinion. Now I'm not condoning what the man did because it was wrong but what honestly put me on Bonds' side was that when McGuire and Sosa saved the game of baseball along with Cal Ripken and his Iron Man streak thing no one thought about asking about roids. As soon as Bonds got close to the holiest of holy's in Ruth's record people got scared because the numbers that make baseball what it is were being threatened. I kept hearing about how Ruth did it the right way at a time when you had teams payed off to throw the WORLD EFFIN SERIES ! I'm not saying there's a guarantee that Ruth cheated it's just that Bonds meant nothing until he got close to Ruth. THEN everone got conciences and wanted to clean things up. Conseco comes out with a book and there you have it.

Baseball did it to themselves, Chicks dig the long ball right ? I can't wait for Bonds to break the record, I'll be cheering right along with alot of the fans in San Fran because everywhere else it wouldn't be the "right" thing to do. If Hank isn't there, so what. Does he need him there?

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[QUOTE=MonkFan4Life;301136]I'm not disgusted with Barry Bonds, no the's his body his choice. Was he wrong ? YES. I actually like to watch the guy hit. I remember when he was going for McQuire's single season record and his eye for pitches amazed me. Steroids or not the guy is a damn fine ball player. Baseball has always been a sport of cheats to me, just my opinion. Now I'm not condoning what the man did because it was wrong but what honestly put me on Bonds' side was that when McGuire and Sosa saved the game of baseball along with Cal Ripken and his Iron Man streak thing no one thought about asking about roids. As soon as Bonds got close to the holiest of holy's in Ruth's record people got scared because the numbers that make baseball what it is were being threatened. I kept hearing about how Ruth did it the right way at a time when you had teams payed off to throw the WORLD EFFIN SERIES ! I'm not saying there's a guarantee that Ruth cheated it's just that Bonds meant nothing until he got close to Ruth. THEN everone got conciences and wanted to clean things up. Conseco comes out with a book and there you have it.

Baseball did it to themselves, Chicks dig the long ball right ? I can't wait for Bonds to break the record, I'll be cheering right along with alot of the fans in San Fran because everywhere else it wouldn't be the "right" thing to do. If Hank isn't there, so what. Does he need him there?[/QUOTE]

Good post. The real shame, as you point out, is that Bonds never even needed to do this. He was one of the greatest players ever long before this record. And he's not the first "bad guy" in baseball, not by a long shot

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

Is that what you teach your kids? or will? It's NOT ok to cheat except?

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

If you're not cheating, you're not trying ;)

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

I guess I didn't realize that baseball had any integrity left to lose.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;301159]I guess I didn't realize that baseball had any integrity left to lose.[/quote]

You may have it SGG.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;301142]Good post. The real shame, as you point out, is that Bonds never even needed to do this. He was one of the greatest players ever long before this record. And he's not the first "bad guy" in baseball, not by a long shot[/quote]

I think a lot of players use the roids to help rehab from injuries. Assuming he's on the roids, he's probably reaping the benefits right now more than any other time, because they're probably helping keep him in good enough condition to withstand injury and keep him in decent enough shape at age 42.

Re: Disgusted with Bonds?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;301154]If you're not cheating, you're not trying ;)[/quote]

I'm out!