Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

First of all, I'm not about to apologize for being a Gibbs' fan. People want to throw all that "You drink the Kool-Aid" "You think Gibbs can do no wrong" accusations they want. Do I think he's infallible? Of course not. But he was the centerpiece of the team during the 80's and the biggest reason I'm part of this site. If not for him, I'm probably not that big a fan. The Redskins were a huge part of my childhood. I have a lot of great memories thanks to the Redskins and Joe Gibbs. For those that grew up in my generation I'm sure you can relate. For those that didn't and don't care about Gibbs, understand what Gibbs means to us.

All that said, here's my question. Why is that people think Gibbs' style of football can't win in today's NFL?

"Gibbs' Football" permeates throughout the league. The single back sets you see all throughout the league, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The Steelers offense that won them a Super Bowl 2 years ago, and has them at 3-0 this year, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The Trips formations that the aforementioned Steelers and defending champion Colts use, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The multiple (2-3) tight end sets that arguably the two best teams in the NFL today (Cowboys and Patriots) use, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that.

These are all Joe Gibbs innovations. He's one of the most creative coaches the NFL has seen in the last 30 years and his impact is felt throughout the league.

So why do people insist his way won't work in today's NFL? And I know it hasn't at a consisent level so far for the Redskins. But it does for others.

Why is that?

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Is it that the offense as a whole in the league over the last ten years has just evolved past what "used" to work for him? I'm not exactly sure myself. But what I hear most often is basically what you heard....the game has become quicker and the play calling has "passed him by" I call BS on that theory...Gibbs is smart enough to understand this and mix it up. Think he doesnt spend HOURS watching CURRENT game film!?? But somethings missing :o( My opinion is he may need a General Manager to help alleviate personell issues and allow him to focus more on game plan. Agree, disagree??
No question that the (2-3) tight end is what I will probably most remember him contributing to todays current offense.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

i like kool-aid

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

the game of football is basically the same as it was 20 years ago. Players change, some schemes may change but the basic formula for winning has not changes. Run the ball, stop the run. If you do that, you win. Now, as far a Gibbs goes. I grew up in the era of Skins domination. which is why its hard for me to take the losing that our team has suffered for the better part of 15 years. Do i think the game has passed him by?? not really. Some of the stuff he was so successful with in the 80's and 90's just doesn't work in todays NFL. the players are stonger, faster and more aggressive. Even he admitted as much. which is why i believe he brought in Saunders, for his innovative play calling and offensive system. I dont understand how his system does not work in DC. Maybe the players just haven't bought into it, who knows. Gibbs football today may work, however offenses in this league are far more explosive (for the most part) than what they use to be. You can not sit on a 14 point lead like you use to. Teams, any team, can strike quickly. I think gibbs is an awesome motivator, guys run through walls for that guy. i do think he may need to adjust slightly to todays game. His play calling is a bit conservative.

it all comes down to wins and losses. If we win, Joe Gibbs football is back and it works. if we lose, then its too conservative and it wont work. I guess its a wait and see thing right now. only 3 games into it - we shall see what the other 13 games hold.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

There are only so many was you can line up 11 guys and I suspect they have all been done before. Gibbs style can still win. Gibbs himself seemed to think his style couldnt still win so he brought in Saunders. Saunders has a different style from Gibbs but now that AS is here it seems like Gibbs does not want to let AS completely do what he was brought here to do.

IMO, the problem is that this team has different offensive philosophies (Gibbs & Saunders) and since neither one is fully used the team is stuck with an offense that does not really know what it wants to do.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

We have an execution problem, not JG2 system prob!
Nice thread SS

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

The coach is the Carpenter, and the Carpenter is no better than his tools. Coaches do not win or lose football games, players do. Therefore I'm of the opinion more attention should be given to the assembly of players and their dedication to winning as opposed to coaching style. All coaches and systems has flaws, but the committment and dedication of players is key.

I'm sure we're going to have more discussion on this very same topic as the season progresses, and espically after each loss. I look foreward to what future excuses will be when we lose a game. This never seems to be a sane place after we lose a game. I chose to abort after each loss, history has demonstrated what it's going to be like.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

For me to answer the question in the title of this thread, someone will have to define for me what "work" means.

In 2005 we made the playoffs and went 10-6. Did Gibbs football not "work" that year? Is something "working" defined as winning a Superbowl and that's it?

I mean, last year we were 4th in the league in rushing offense. Seems like whatever football it was (Gibbs football or Saunders football) it worked - except for the fact that we didn't have much of a QB. What didn't work was Gregg Williams football.

Did Gibbs football not work against the Dolphins and the Eagles this year? Did it not work for the first half against the Giants? Really, of the 12 quarters of football we've played this year, hasn't Gibbs football worked for most of them?

The other thing I'm going to say is that the Salary Cap Era forces you to adapt your roster and transform your team a little more slowly. With the absolute mess that Spurrier left this team in, for Gibbs to get us to 10-6 and to the playoffs in his second year, is probably one of the greatest coaching accomplishments of his illustrious career. I'll admit, last year he had a down year, mainly attributable to his defense. But the jury's still out on this year folks. I think Gibbs football is "working" as we speak.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I totally disagree with this because granted,running the ball on 2 straight downs might not have been the best decision,But,on 2nd down we ran a quick screen and being that close to the endzone everyone knows that running a screen or short pass it has to be done fast and seeing that the 2nd down short pass failed because of a mad rush no way was he going to have Campbell throw a Pick that close and Kill JC's confidence and the team hopes-because a INT deflates everything soo fast_}{_so in conclusion we ran the same play that most of the league would have Ran._Go Skins_ and lets get ready for the Bye!

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I think this thread alone speaks to the frustration of the fan base and the division we've seen here on Warpath for the past three years, and more recently Sunday's lost.

First of all, let's take a look at some criticisms of other coaches around the league. Now whether they're true or not, there are probably enough trends and evidence out there to support these to some degree, if not entirely.

For instance, if I say [B][I]Tom Coughlin[/I][/B], immediately you think something along the lines of hard nosed, disciplinarian, inflexible, old school, or cranky. You also get the impression that he alienates his players. If say [B]Bill Belichick[/B]. Again, you think genius, winner, asshole (perhaps), cheater, or douche bag. But you rarely, if ever, think loser, too conservative, no fire, or "behind the times" when Belichick's name is mentioned. One more: And this isn't really a criticism, but just to give you an idea of what image pops in your head: [B]Herm Edwards.[/B] Now with Herm you never get the impression that he's the greatest head coach in the world, but you do get the feeling he's a "player's coach" or a "motivator"....a good man. We know this and the guy has never coached one day in D.C.

And this brings me to [B]Joe Gibbs [/B]and, specifically Joe Gibbs football. To be honest with you, I'm not sure what to quite make of his first three, going on four years here. To be frank, that in and of itself is a little troubling. Not one of us can quite put our finger on his style this time around and how his brand of coaching affects the team's psyche. We know what we hear in the pressers and interviews and the coaches round table, but what have we really hung our hat on in three years?

I don't think Joe Gibbs football only consists of x's and o's, but his locker room presence, his half-time genius, his ability to get one or two great games out of a nobody free agent that could be released the following season. Joe Gibbs football is also about his staff being on the same page and a group of core Skins to rally the troops. (I'll get to that in a minute.)

Also, and this is just my general observation, I get the impression that while the current Redskins have great admiration and respect for Gibbs, I rarely hear them say, coach said this or coach said that. Or coach gave us an ear full after yesterday's lost. It's not so much in what they say, it's what they don't say. I know these are grown men, and professionals at that, but it's the absence of what hasn't been said that sticks out to me. See Joe Gibbs currenly has a bunch of great athletes that play the game of football, whereas before he had good football players (core Skins) that played great football. That's the major difference between Gibbs I and Gibbs II.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;357561]For me to answer the question in the title of this thread, someone will have to define for me what "work" means.

In 2005 we made the playoffs and went 10-6. Did Gibbs football not "work" that year? Is something "working" defined as winning a Superbowl and that's it?

I mean, last year we were 4th in the league in rushing offense. Seems like whatever football it was (Gibbs football or Saunders football) it worked - except for the fact that we didn't have much of a QB. What didn't work was Gregg Williams football.

Did Gibbs football not work against the Dolphins and the Eagles this year? Did it not work for the first half against the Giants? Really, of the 12 quarters of football we've played this year, hasn't Gibbs football worked for most of them?

The other thing I'm going to say is that the Salary Cap Era forces you to adapt your roster and transform your team a little more slowly. With the absolute mess that Spurrier left this team in, for Gibbs to get us to 10-6 and to the playoffs in his second year, is probably one of the greatest coaching accomplishments of his illustrious career. I'll admit, last year he had a down year, mainly attributable to his defense. But the jury's still out on this year folks. I think Gibbs football is "working" as we speak.[/QUOTE]

Well, the full title should be "Why is there a previaling sentiment among several members on this board and others that 'it's blatantly obvious "Gibbs Football' well never work' 'The game has passed the old man by" and other such comments, when if you look around the NFL you can clearly see that "Gibbs Footbal" continues to work at a high rate, and has even worked when we've stuck to it here"

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Again, I want to reiterate and further drive my point home about Joe Gibbs football. Joe Gibbs football is also about Joe Gibbs football players. In my mind, the two are not separate. He needs his guys to play his brand of football. So, no it's not just about x's an o's, and it's not entirely about the salary cap either.

If I gave you a box with [B]Betty Crocker [/B]written on the front and gave you all the neccessary ingredients, and tasked you with baking a cake, could you do it? Probably so. But to achieve max results, you need a damn oven don't you?

I think Gibbs has the right formula for winning, he has the right ingredients, but the temparture just 'aint right! And you can't manufacture baking temperature. Either you got it or you don't. And therein lies the mystery.

I believe I just answered Q3.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;357574]Well, the full title should be "Why is there a previaling sentiment among several members on this board and others that 'it's blatantly obvious "Gibbs Football' well never work' 'The game has passed the old man by" and other such comments, when if you look around the NFL you can clearly see that "Gibbs Footbal" continues to work at a high rate, and has even worked when we've stuck to it here"[/quote]

Yeah I get your gyst. And my response was intended to be directed at the dummies who insist Gibbs football doesn't "work."

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;357561]For me to answer the question in the title of this thread, someone will have to define for me what "work" means.

In 2005 we made the playoffs and went 10-6. Did Gibbs football not "work" that year? Is something "working" defined as winning a Superbowl and that's it?

I mean, last year we were 4th in the league in rushing offense. Seems like whatever football it was (Gibbs football or Saunders football) it worked - except for the fact that we didn't have much of a QB. What didn't work was Gregg Williams football.

Did Gibbs football not work against the Dolphins and the Eagles this year? Did it not work for the first half against the Giants? Really, of the 12 quarters of football we've played this year, hasn't Gibbs football worked for most of them?

The other thing I'm going to say is that the Salary Cap Era forces you to adapt your roster and transform your team a little more slowly. With the absolute mess that Spurrier left this team in, for Gibbs to get us to 10-6 and to the playoffs in his second year, is probably one of the greatest coaching accomplishments of his illustrious career. I'll admit, last year he had a down year, mainly attributable to his defense. But the jury's still out on this year folks. I think Gibbs football is "working" as we speak.[/QUOTE]

Well said. You said what I was thinking, only in better words.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

JG football works, just not the same gameplan every week. IMO, different Teams require different offensive approaches. I still think if we had taken the reins off of JC the outcome would have been quite different. I love JG and don't like to question him on much. he knows more than me or anybody else on the site but I would like to see a more explosive offense. Not just the same old shit, get up by 7 or 10 and then just sit on it. This isn't the team of the 80's and 90's where we had by far the most talent on the feild almost every week. We need to be more creative.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

why does all the "I hate Gibbs" threads come out after we lose [B]1[/B] game?

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=chrisl13;357599]why does all the "I hate Gibbs" threads come out after we lose [B]1[/B] game?[/QUOTE]

Well, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_jerk_reaction"]physiologically[/URL] speaking...

:cheeky-sm

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=gibbsisgod;357597]JG football works, just not the same gameplan every week. IMO, different Teams require different offensive approaches. I still think if we had taken the reins off of JC the outcome would have been quite different. I love JG and don't like to question him on much. he knows more than me or anybody else on the site but I would like to see a more explosive offense. Not just the same old shit, get up by 7 or 10 and then just sit on it. This isn't the team of the 80's and 90's where we had by far the most talent on the feild almost every week. We need to be more creative.[/QUOTE]

Well here's a question for you then (and everyone else) is it better to play to your own strengths, or against the opponents' weakness?

Case in point for this past weekend, our strengths so far this season have been our running game and our defense. For all of Campbell's potential and the flashes we've seen, the passing offense isn't necessarily a strength at the moment.

On the other hand, the Giants' weakness most would agree is their pass defense.

So what's the right strategy? My feeling is you do what you do best and make the other team stop you at what you do best. It's like jsarno said in a fantasy football thread (to paraphrase) "If you're going to lose, lose with your best."

What sayeth thou?

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I feel that Gibbs Football can work if you build the team from "the inside out", meaning an emphasis on drafting / acquiring linemen that will consistently win the battles in the trenches. I feel that Gibbs 2.0 has chosen to build the team from "the outside in", focusing on secondary and linebackers on defense, and skill position players on offense. Just look at the drafts since Gibbs returned - not a single O or D lineman drafted in the first 4 rounds. That has to change starting next draft.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I think the Joe Gibbs system is in place throughout the NFL as SS mentioned, but it's evolved over the past 10+ years whereas it seems that Gibbs has not. His aggressiveness 20 yrs ago is now commonplace play calling, even conservative by current standards. The fear of turnovers has replaced the ferocity he used to attack opponents with.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;357622]Well here's a question for you then (and everyone else) is it better to play to your own strengths, or against the opponents' weakness?

Case in point for this past weekend, our strengths so far this season have been our running game and our defense. For all of Campbell's potential and the flashes we've seen, the passing offense isn't necessarily a strength at the moment.

On the other hand, the Giants' weakness most would agree is their pass defense.

So what's the right strategy? My feeling is you do what you do best and make the other team stop you at what you do best. It's like jsarno said in a fantasy football thread (to paraphrase) "If you're going to lose, lose with your best."

What sayeth thou?[/quote]That depends on what your team understands better.

If you think you are a running team, but you don't have dominant run blockers and great backs, then it does no good to try to run the ball all day, even if the media thinks thats your "bread and butter."

If you think the opponent has a bad pass defense, but in acutality they are pretty good at defending the pass, it does no good to throw it on them.

To me, it's obvious that "playing to our strengths" actually means throwing the football especially off of play action. But playing to our opponents weaknesses...for Detroit thats everything.

If you execute, scheme matters none at all. So can we execute our strengths even if the defense is going to be all over it? I'm not paid nearly enough to answer that question.

Do we even know where our strengths lie? No idea. Kinda scary.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;357636]To me, it's obvious that "playing to our strengths" actually means throwing the football especially off of play action.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I haven't looked at the stats, but it seems like we aren't doing enough play action. Or, at least we aren't calling it when it would be most effective. It seems like we always run 1 too many run plays right before we play action, and if we'd play action 1 play earlier we'd totally catch the defense off guard.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way Gibbs coaches football. His philosophies are as sound today as they were 2 decades ago. It's always been about execution with him. During the first go round he didn't have to worry about losing his players to free agency so he could get them coached up to the point where they were performing exactly the way he envisioned. We're not there yet.

Personally, i think Gibbs' style is the exact opposite of all of the special game planning, exotic, scheming styles you've seen more recently. He's going to play the same way, week in, week out with a few important wrinkles thrown in. He just seems to feel that he can get his players to the point where their execution and thorough understanding of fundamentally sound football will prevail against a team that is playing a new scheme every week.

This is one reason I think we will beat the Patriots this year. Everyone else worries about what formation/style they're going to play because they're so versatile. JG doesn't care. He's going to run it right at them and it's up to them to stop it. It's not subtle but it's gotten us three superbowl wins.

I get charged up everytime I see our offense run a counter tre. Same thing with the play action to Moss. That's Redskins' football, man! We're not the 99 Rams, we're not the 49ers of the late 80s, we're the Redskins and we're going to run over you until you are so focused on stopping that aspect, that we can go over the top for a back breaking 60 yd touchdown. How can you criticize that??? It's worked so well in the past, it will work again.

I'm tired of these sky is falling, chick little mother fuckers that sit at their keyboard with a mouse in one hand and kleenex in the other, just waiting for their chance to get off by bitching about this team. You want to piss on the redskins and their staff ALL OF THE TIME? Why are you a fan? Why do you CHOOSE to affiliate yourself with a team that so clearly makes you miserable? What is so wrong with your perspective that the only way you can interact with other fans of the same team you supposedly follow is to bitch and moan about everything they do?


If you are calling for Gibbs to be fired or simply need to post a thread about how he doesn't know how to call a game EVERY WEEK remember this:

Only. Active. Coach. In. The. Hall. Of. Fame.

Clear? Good.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;357622]Well here's a question for you then (and everyone else) is it better to play to your own strengths, or against the opponents' weakness?

Case in point for this past weekend, our strengths so far this season have been our running game and our defense. For all of Campbell's potential and the flashes we've seen, the passing offense isn't necessarily a strength at the moment.

On the other hand, the Giants' weakness most would agree is their pass defense.

So what's the right strategy? My feeling is you do what you do best and make the other team stop you at what you do best. It's like jsarno said in a fantasy football thread (to paraphrase) "If you're going to lose, lose with your best."

What sayeth thou?[/QUOTE]

Well, that's why you game plan for each opponent differently. You see what your strengths are and how they relate to your opponents' strengths and weaknesses. If your going strength against strength, it comes down to seeing who's the better team.

A great team will always find and exploit their opponents' weaknesses. Great teams are well balanced with few obvious weaknesses. Again, two great teams go strength against strength, and the better team wins.

Right now in Gibbs II, we have a good team, but we have obvious weaknesses. So, bad teams, decent teams, good teams will play to their strengths, but will hide weaknesses. Our weakness is the passing game because of an inexperienced quarterback. Luckily for us, Campbell is growing more confident with each game. In every game, out of any mistakes he makes, there is always at least one thing that Campbell does that impresses me and reassures me that he's becoming a very good quarterback in this league. Once Campbell reaches the point of being a feared quarterback, then you'll be able to finally see why Gibbs is in the hall of fame, and what he has tried to build in the present day. We might not see it until he steps down, but rest assured, the success we will have will have a lot to do with Gibbs as an overall organizer and coach of this team.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Hey folks, first time posting, long time reader.

Since I have been a fan for a long time I guess I can throw my 2 cents in about Coach Gibbs. The only question I have about Gibbs is (and it goes with last weeks game) this. Does Joe Gibbs have what it takes to run the score up on other teams? We all know how good hearted of a man he is and I have nothing but respect for him, but he is getting on in years and I just don't know if he would run a score up on a team. I think the players respect him, he is a hall of fame coach, and he did win us 3 SB. But would he do the same thing to the Giants that Andy Reid did to the Lions? I have a hard time believing that the Giants D turned a 180 in our visitor locker room. I think Gibbs fully believed that we were up by 14 points and it was time to start running out the clock. The goal line stance was another thing, Jason could have tried passing a safe one into the end zone instead of spiking the ball on first down if it had not worked then the clock is stopped with plenty of time, he had just made some really nice passes to get there. As for the last play I think we saw a young QB in him. QB's like Brady and P. Manning would have taken more time, but that didn't concern me as much as the lack of big open plays in the 2nd half, I think we could have put another 14 on the board, but again thats just me.

I am certainly not bashing Gibbs, I don't have the heart to do that, I have way too much repsect for him to ever get on him.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

With a good O-line and an accurate QB, Gibbs system has and will always work in this league. Someone mentioned earlier that our execution is what's not working. True, we have a beat up O-line and JC's needs to improve his long pass accuracy - however, Gibbs' playcalling is also a major constraint.

When we're up, Gibbs plays not to lose instead of trying to put teams away. Our opponents are making half time adjustments to neutralize our offense, and we're not one-upping their adjustments with our own. That's a pretty lethal combination - our vanilla play calls against their half time adjustments.

Since Gibbs' return, we've lost 11 of 26 games where we led at the half. That's a pretty telling stat. We cannot win a SB with this coach. Thanks for the great years in '82-'91, but as Gibbs himself said when he returned - the past buys us nothing.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=msm1971;357655]Hey folks, first time posting, long time reader.

Since I have been a fan for a long time I guess I can throw my 2 cents in about Coach Gibbs. The only question I have about Gibbs is (and it goes with last weeks game) this. Does Joe Gibbs have what it takes to run the score up on other teams? We all know how good hearted of a man he is and I have nothing but respect for him, but he is getting on in years and I just don't know if he would run a score up on a team. I think the players respect him, he is a hall of fame coach, and he did win us 3 SB. But would he do the same thing to the Giants that Andy Reid did to the Lions? I have a hard time believing that the Giants D turned a 180 in our visitor locker room. I think Gibbs fully believed that we were up by 14 points and it was time to start running out the clock. The goal line stance was another thing, Jason could have tried passing a safe one into the end zone instead of spiking the ball on first down if it had not worked then the clock is stopped with plenty of time, he had just made some really nice passes to get there. As for the last play I think we saw a young QB in him. QB's like Brady and P. Manning would have taken more time, but that didn't concern me as much as the lack of big open plays in the 2nd half, I think we could have put another 14 on the board, but again thats just me.

I am certainly not bashing Gibbs, I don't have the heart to do that, I have way too much repsect for him to ever get on him.[/QUOTE]

Remember when Gibbs ran up the score on the 49ers in 2005?

[url=http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/games/2005-10-23-redskins-49ers_x.htm]USATODAY.com - Redskins golden vs. 49ers 52-17[/url]

I think he's still got it.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

If I recall correctly, about 6 or 7 of those 11 losses (that we blew at halftime) happened last season where our defense was abysmal. I believe that with a strong defense you run, run, run, play-action pass with a lead. No gimmicks. Just football. It didn't work for us this past Sunday but I don't think you throw the baby out with the bathwater (or whatever the expression is)

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[quote=hurrykaine;357659]With a good O-line and an accurate QB, Gibbs system has and will always work in this league. Someone mentioned earlier that our execution is what's not working. True, we have a beat up O-line and JC's needs to improve his long pass accuracy - however, Gibbs' playcalling is also a major constraint.

When we're up, Gibbs plays not to lose instead of trying to put teams away. Our opponents are making half time adjustments to neutralize our offense, and we're not one-upping their adjustments with our own. That's a pretty lethal combination - our vanilla play calls against their half time adjustments.

Since Gibbs' return, we've lost 11 of 26 games where we led at the half. That's a pretty telling stat. We cannot win a SB with this coach. Thanks for the great years in '82-'91, but as Gibbs himself said when he returned - the past buys us nothing.[/quote]
I disagree that JC needs to work on his long pass accuracy. He has problem with the short stuff and seeing the the entire field. He has hit a long ball in every game.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;357528]First of all, I'm not about to apologize for being a Gibbs' fan. People want to throw all that "You drink the Kool-Aid" "You think Gibbs can do no wrong" accusations they want. Do I think he's infallible? Of course not. But he was the centerpiece of the team during the 80's and the biggest reason I'm part of this site. If not for him, I'm probably not that big a fan. The Redskins were a huge part of my childhood. I have a lot of great memories thanks to the Redskins and Joe Gibbs. For those that grew up in my generation I'm sure you can relate. For those that didn't and don't care about Gibbs, understand what Gibbs means to us.

All that said, here's my question. Why is that people think Gibbs' style of football can't win in today's NFL?

"Gibbs' Football" permeates throughout the league. The single back sets you see all throughout the league, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The Steelers offense that won them a Super Bowl 2 years ago, and has them at 3-0 this year, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The Trips formations that the aforementioned Steelers and defending champion Colts use, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The multiple (2-3) tight end sets that arguably the two best teams in the NFL today (Cowboys and Patriots) use, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that.

These are all Joe Gibbs innovations. He's one of the most creative coaches the NFL has seen in the last 30 years and his impact is felt throughout the league.

So why do people insist his way won't work in today's NFL? And I know it hasn't at a consisent level so far for the Redskins. But it does for others.

Why is that?[/quote]

It does work. We just don't have the talent to run it and he's to god damn hard headed to realize it. The two play calls at the end of the game shows that.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[quote=Schneed10;357561]For me to answer the question in the title of this thread, someone will have to define for me what "work" means.

In 2005 we made the playoffs and went 10-6. Did Gibbs football not "work" that year? Is something "working" defined as winning a Superbowl and that's it?

I mean, last year we were 4th in the league in rushing offense. Seems like whatever football it was (Gibbs football or Saunders football) it worked - except for the fact that we didn't have much of a QB. What didn't work was Gregg Williams football.

Did Gibbs football not work against the Dolphins and the Eagles this year? Did it not work for the first half against the Giants? Really, of the 12 quarters of football we've played this year, hasn't Gibbs football worked for most of them?

The other thing I'm going to say is that the Salary Cap Era forces you to adapt your roster and transform your team a little more slowly. With the absolute mess that Spurrier left this team in, for Gibbs to get us to 10-6 and to the playoffs in his second year, is probably one of the greatest coaching accomplishments of his illustrious career. I'll admit, last year he had a down year, mainly attributable to his defense. But the jury's still out on this year folks. I think Gibbs football is "working" as we speak.[/quote]

We were 4th in rushing offense but we were losing and we were not scoring enough points. That's the bottom line.

In 2005 the offense was better than 04 but honestly the defense, for the most part carried the team. The defense won the playoff game because we couldn't even get a 1st down in that game.

I think someone had a stat in another thread where it showed that since Gibbs has been back we have only broke 24 points far less than half the games he has coached. That is a very telling stat and to me that shows that he is not getting it done on his side of the ball which is the offense.

I want to see more mid range /deep passes on 1st down. I want to see some creativity in getting Cooley and Moss the ball more. I want to see another wr catch a pass besides ARE and Moss. I want to see more 4 wr sets where the defense is spread out more. I want to see JC roll out more. I want to see a passing game where it's not a struggle to break 200 yards.

I am asking too much here? These offensive coaches are paid millions and millions of $ to fix it. It's time to fix it.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Someone earlier posted that the NFL is about running and stopping the run and it hasn't changed in twenty years. That statement couldn't be much farther from the truth. As Pat Kirwan spent about 30 minutes talking about on NFL radio the other day, the league has turned into a pass first league. The rules are slanted towards the passing game. PI may be the best way to move the ball in football, illegal contact is a nice chunk of yards. etc.

For instance, lets look at the top 5 teams in the league in passing offense: Lions, Bengals, Patriots, Colts, Cowboys. These teams have a combined record of: 12-3 this far into the season. That's a pretty accurate example that being able to pass the ball, and doing it often is very important in this league. The tide is changing, the NFL wants it to be a passing lane, it's exciting and grabs the casual fans attention.

Now, I'm not saying ignore our running backs like the Eagles. We can use the passing game to work in the running game. Allow the explosiveness of our backs in both the passing game, and against 7 man fronts instead of the usual 8 they're seeing.

Right now, we're #21 in NFL scoring at 17.7 PPG. Considering the Cowboys and Patriots are at 38.7 and 38 respectively. I mean, Houston at spot #12 is a full TD PER GAME ahead of us. That's pretty bad, in my opinion.

No one can nor wants to take what Gibbs did in the past away from him. Much of what we see today came from Gibbs, who learned a lot what he learned from Air Coyell (Im sure I butchered the spelling, don't yell!) at SD state. However, that doesn't mean he's guaranteed success at this point.

As Ive said multiple times before. I hate leading at the half. Someone posted an article saying when leading at the half, we're 12-11 or something very similar. That is PATHETIC. We probably have a better chance to win the game coming from behind.

This isn't me just blaming Gibbs, they seem to try to keep it a secret from us as far as who has control of the offense and who does what. I don't care who's responsible for this, but my gut says Gibbs. Saunders has been scoring points and been nothing but aggressive for Vermeil in KC. Maybe his offense isn't completely in, but I doubt he still wouldn't be extremely aggressive with his play calling.

When it comes down to it, we need more consistent play from the players. I don't buy that whole "execute" bullshit. If you go by that type of mentality, you can call any play in the world as long as you "execute" the play will be successful. It comes down to more than that, there are defenses that counter it, and if the defense executes, does that mean to offense isn't? Or maybe the defense was just in the right position because of coaching. Yes, with Moss and Cooley dropping balls, that's execution. A whole play not working is play calling and coaching.

We need to score points. We've seen this A LOT since Gibbs came back. We get ahead, and we try to run the clock out at the half. Keep going for blood. I don't care if the other team gets a little sad because they were blown out. We need to finish teams, and finish them hard. If Gibbs doesn't make the playoffs this year, he has 1 playoff appearance in 4 years. That is what it is, pathetic. We have a huge payroll and tons of talent on both sides of the ball.

You are what your record says you are. Simple as that. If Gibbs doesn't get us into the playoffs, he'll be out of D.C. and history won't look back on his 2nd stint favorably. People are so blinded by what he did in the past that they can't possibly think that hes not getting the job done.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Before drinking the kool-aid, its best to spike the kool-aid first.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

The NFL is about moving the chains, be it through passing or running the ball. It's not about stats. It's not about dynamic flashy offense. It's not about the latest offensive trends. It's not about running up the score. It's about winning. Gibbs' offense is not dynamic, flashy, exotic or revolutionary. It's somewhat simplistic. But it works. It has worked in the past, it will work in the future. Our problem is in execution, not play calling. For those who say we didn't hold onto our lead because we got too conservative, what about the incomplete passes on our first drive in the second half? It looked like Moss and JC were on completely different pages in the playbook. We didn't execute in the 2nd half. We could have Mike Martz calling the plays with 4 wide the whole time, running intermediate crossing patterns and throwing the ball 40 times per game but if no one executes, what the hell good does it do?

Some people seem to have a very hard time making the distinction between the gameplan as executed and the original gameplan itself.

Had we gotten a little more push on fourth down and Betts doesn't trip on his own feet, would we be so worried? I highly doubt it with the never ending exception of a very vocal minority. Had JC hit Moss in the hands on the pass plays we did attempt, would Gibbs be encouraged to further entrust the game to a QB with 10 games of starting experience? I'm guessing yes.

BTW, we're 2-1, it's a winning record, so as far as this season goes our record says we're a good football team. That makes me happy. I must be naive.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

BlledBurgundy, Obviously Gibbs strategy since he's been here of running HASN'T gotten it done. One amazing and unprobable run to the playoffs by winning all those games in 05 on the back of our defense. But if I recall correctly he has a below 500 record in his 2nd stint.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Daseal, it seems you're acting as if he never left. Surely you can admit he needs time to get everything going. Everybody wants this thing done yesterday, doesn't work like that all the time. And I will say the strategy is fine, it's the execution that is lacking. You can't seriously tell me that if our players make very routine plays on Sunday that we still lose. You're laying the blame on the wrong doorstep here.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

Daseal, what changes would you make? What exactly are you suggesting? I don't see how any "strategic" changes make our players execute better. Where's the strategy in both your players not knowing which route to run?

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I need someone to tell me exactly what is Joe Gibbs Football. I hear the term used so often...We need to get back to playing Redskin Football, or Joe Gibbs Football.

Redskin Football and Joe Gibbs Football in everybody's Football, many teams operate on the same premice, run the ball to set up the pass. This has been Gibbs philosophy for as long as I can remember, so this Joe Gibbs Football is just no more than a cliche that's been used so much it's worn out it's usefullness.

The Redskins are what they are. The NFL consists of a handfull of what could be considered good teams, a handfull of teams somewhere in the middle, and a handfull of bad teams. The Redskins are among the group in the middle, and have a ways to go in order to move into that upper tier of teams. Whether Joe Gibbs will be successful in acomplishing that feat remains to be seen. One thing is for certain, it's going to require more than just a notion to get it done.

I have learned over the years to stay on an even course when it comes to the outcome of games, and how they're played, never get too high or too low. It's the best way to protect my sanity.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;357528]First of all, I'm not about to apologize for being a Gibbs' fan. People want to throw all that "You drink the Kool-Aid" "You think Gibbs can do no wrong" accusations they want. Do I think he's infallible? Of course not. But he was the centerpiece of the team during the 80's and the biggest reason I'm part of this site. If not for him, I'm probably not that big a fan. The Redskins were a huge part of my childhood. I have a lot of great memories thanks to the Redskins and Joe Gibbs. For those that grew up in my generation I'm sure you can relate. For those that didn't and don't care about Gibbs, understand what Gibbs means to us.

All that said, here's my question. Why is that people think Gibbs' style of football can't win in today's NFL?[/quote]

It can win in the NFL, it's just not going to win consistantly because conservative plays no longer win games. In his day (and yes I am of that generation for all you that don't know), it was all about time of possession and running the ball and clock out. It's a pass happy NFL now.
I love Gibbs for what he did, and how he has changed the attitude in DC, but I want him to realize it's time to open up the offense.
With two of our best O linemen out, it's time to scrap the theory that 30 or more carries wins a ball game. It's the passing game we need embrace. Use the passing game to set up the run, not use the running game to set up the pass. I've played football at the collegiate level, and followed Redskins football, and NFL football for almost 30 years, the game is different than it used to be, and Gibbs has been extremely hesitant to roll with these changes.

[quote]"Gibbs' Football" permeates throughout the league. The single back sets you see all throughout the league, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The Steelers offense that won them a Super Bowl 2 years ago, and has them at 3-0 this year, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The Trips formations that the aforementioned Steelers and defending champion Colts use, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that. The multiple (2-3) tight end sets that arguably the two best teams in the NFL today (Cowboys and Patriots) use, you can thank Joe Gibbs for that.[/quote]

1- no one is saying he was not innovative.
2- while he did revolutionize the NFL with certain plays (the counter trey was his too), you can't live off a few plays. None of those teams you mentioned rely on one thing. The Colts change things up on a regular basis.
One thing you mentioned was the Steelers, and they have come the closest to Gibbs football in recent memory. One problem is that when the run wasn't working, they threw the ball instead of insisting after 3 straight 3 and out's that it will work. I doubt anyone would care about "conservative" play calling if it was working.

[quote]These are all Joe Gibbs innovations. He's one of the most creative coaches the NFL has seen in the last 30 years and his impact is felt throughout the league. [/quote]

Agreed, but that doesn't make him a winner on Gibbs part 2.

[quote]So why do people insist his way won't work in today's NFL? And I know it hasn't at a consisent level so far for the Redskins. But it does for others.

Why is that?[/QUOTE]


Like I said, I think it can work, but adjustments need to be made.
You have to ask yourself, if you did something for your boss and he didn't like it...then you did it again, and again, and again, and again...do you think he'll all of sudden like it, or do you think you better make some sort of adjustment to ensure satisfaction? Same applies here, Gibbs can keep insisting certain (what I call conservative) play calling will work every team we step out on the field.

Re: Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?
 

I don't doubt the fact that Gibbs' football can win in this league. Smootsmack has elegantly outlined several teams that have used Gibbs' blueprints to achieve victory. However, I do worry that Gibbs himself cannot follow his own blueprints as effectively as other teams now do...