One Decision Overlooked!
 

In all of this there was one decesion by the Coaching staff that still eats away at me. It wasn't the play calling which for the most part was good. We weren't conservative we went for the kill a bunch, we had a good mix.

The one thing that eats away at me which I think a bunch of people overlooked. The Pass to Cooley on 3rd and 7. He clearly got within a yard of the first down, but they gave a horrible spot. Now I understand if you don't want to challenge becuase you might risk a timeout. But why in the World do you call a Timeout instead of Challenge? Make no sense in the World. You might get the extra yard and a free timeout. What is the worst that will happen you lose a timeout, well you just freakin called one instead. Absolutely morronic, that just make me wonder what in the world is going on.

I'm not questioning the play calling or game plan because I thought it was great, we just didn't execute in critical situations.

Also second straight time Thrash gets called for Garabge that could have changed a game.

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Sorry my spelling was bad.

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Yeah that was a mega shitty spot on that catch by Cooley. I was hoping for a challenge too.

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i was so F****** angry about the play call on 4 and 2 though

AFTER A WASTED TIMEOUT!!!!!!!! LETS GIVE THE BALL TO BETTS

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I didnt even realize that til you just posted that. Ussually I wont get too mad if I dont realize things before hand, but that does make a lot of sense.

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I know you can challenge a spot when a player is getting tackled, but can you challenge a spot when they're diving out of bounds?

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I know Troy Aikman is a homer cowboy....but he was effective in pointing out the redskin's flaws all day.............secondary doesnt look at the ball.......coaches had poor clock management......

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[quote=skinsfan242;364614]In all of this there was one decesion by the Coaching staff that still eats away at me. It wasn't the play calling which for the most part was good. We weren't conservative we went for the kill a bunch, we had a good mix.

The one thing that eats away at me which I think a bunch of people overlooked. The Pass to Cooley on 3rd and 7. He clearly got within a yard of the first down, but they gave a horrible spot. Now I understand if you don't want to challenge becuase you might risk a timeout. But why in the World do you call a Timeout instead of Challenge? Make no sense in the World. You might get the extra yard and a free timeout. What is the worst that will happen you lose a timeout, well you just freakin called one instead. Absolutely morronic, that just make me wonder what in the world is going on.

I'm not questioning the play calling or game plan because I thought it was great, we just didn't execute in critical situations.

Also second straight time Thrash gets called for Garabge that could have changed a game.[/quote]I mentioned the Cooley spot on an earlier thread. It should have been 4th and about half a yard instead of 4th and 1 1/2. I totally agree that Gibbs and our 20 other coaches screwed up that none of them saw fit to push for a challenge. This referee crew was perhaps the worst we saw all season. They missed obvious calls both ways (Bubba Franks should have had a TD with a force out after the Portis fumble).

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I must have repressed this memory because I went ape-shit over us not challenging that spot, especially after we used a timeout anyway!

I think that might have been the point in the game when my sister left the room and said she refuses to ever watch another game with me (I getting a little vocal with the
TV).

It's not like we should have been afraid to waste a challenge because it was so late in the game and we were using our 2nd timeout anyways. I really feel like most coaches would have tossed out the red flag just to be sure and it really pisses me off that gibbs didn't.

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[QUOTE=Schneed10;364627]I know you can challenge a spot when a player is getting tackled, but can you challenge a spot when they're diving out of bounds?[/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure you can. I don't see why not.

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[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;364630]I must have repressed this memory because I went ape-shit over us not challenging that spot, especially after we used a timeout anyway!

I think that might have been the point in the game when my sister left the room and said she refuses to ever watch another game with me (I getting a little vocal with the
TV).

It's not like we should have been afraid to waste a challenge because it was so late in the game and we were using our 2nd timeout anyways. I really feel like most coaches would have tossed out the red flag just to be sure and it really pisses me off that gibbs didn't.[/quote]I was pretty animated also, starting with the simultaneous posession that should have been a Campbell completion, then the idiotic reverse call on a wet track, but especially that horrible spot. Is it just me or do Gibbs and our other offensive coaches seem to go clueless at crunch time? Whether it's time management or an obvious challenge like that spot, we just seem to have a Chinese fire drill on the sidelines when we need calm, cool decision making in the crunch. At least our 25 year old QB seems to be cool under fire.

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[quote=SouperMeister;364629]I mentioned the Cooley spot on an earlier thread. It should have been 4th and about half a yard instead of 4th and 1 1/2. I totally agree that Gibbs and our 20 other coaches screwed up that none of them saw fit to push for a challenge. This referee crew was perhaps the worst we saw all season. They missed obvious calls both ways (Bubba Franks should have had a TD with a force out after the Portis fumble).[/quote]

I don't think that was a force out, the CB clearly has to prevent you from coming down in bounds, he could have still got a toe in and didn't so it was the right call.

The worst call of the Game was on Thrash what was he suppose to Do Woodson was trying to tackle him and he was trying to get free, absoultely game changing horrible call.

I don't fault the reverse call, remember sometimes on a wet field the defense goes one way a slips then he is off to the races, they just played it well.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;364619]Yeah that was a mega shitty spot on that catch by Cooley. I was hoping for a challenge too.[/QUOTE]

50 yd atttempt maybe?

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It was the right call to go for it. A 50 yard attempt on a sloppy track would have been dumb.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;364652]It was the right call to go for it. A 50 yard attempt on a sloppy track would have been dumb.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but you have to be able to make those to be a wildcard team. I know its a double edged sword........

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[quote=skinsfan242;364644]I don't think that was a force out, the CB clearly has to prevent you from coming down in bounds, he could have still got a toe in and didn't so it was the right call.

The worst call of the Game was on Thrash what was he suppose to Do Woodson was trying to tackle him and he was trying to get free, absoultely game changing horrible call.

I don't fault the reverse call, remember sometimes on a wet field the defense goes one way a slips then he is off to the races, they just played it well.[/quote]I totally agree on the ridiculous double call on Thrash and Woodson. Woodson was holding Thrash with BOTH hands TEN yards downfield, and the ref also calls Thrash for PI just for breaking free??? That was a [B]huge[/B] call that prevented the Skins from probably going up by 10 or 14 points early in the 2nd half.

I still maintain my stance against the reverse - the most likely guy to slip on a wet field when the reverse is called is the ball carrier, because he's going full speed and has to make the hardest cut to turn the ball upfield. Lastly, I hate it when Saunders has to revert to trickery when we're driving with momentum.

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^ Soup I agree with tricky stuff and why Moss to run it if he is injured????? Use thrash or B. Llyod. UGH!!!! I had this game count as a lost in my season forecasting but I still think it is a game we should have pulled out.

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I thought the spot was bad but the replay showed that Cooley didnt even hit the 1st down marker with the ball when he was tackled. It was a good move to not to challenge.

I liked the call to go for it.

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Amazing that for a man who is as supposedly brilliant as Gibbs, this kind of clock mismanagement has become a trend this time around. As a skins fan I am SOOOOOO tired of saying "what if."

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[quote=Sean Taylor;364657]Yeah but you have to be able to make those to be a wildcard team. I know its a double edged sword........[/quote]

not true.....a wildcard team would not have attempted that.....maybe a 25% chance suisham hits that....and a 30% chance of a bad snap or fumble.....rabach wasnt even in

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In defense of Gibbs on the decision to not challenge, that is really the responsibility of Saunders or someone up in the booth with access to multiple camera angles to make that call. It is really hard to know from the sideline that the spot was bad when it happened on the other sideline. It could have gone on Cooley as well b/c he has to let Gibbs know but i didn't see him running over to the sideline and pleading his case. Also given the lack of definitive markers to respot the ball (since he dove out of bounds), the call probably wouldnt have been overturned (as most spotting reveiws aren't) and almost certainly wouldn't have given us a first down. How is Gibbs supposed to intuitively know that the spot was bad and just throw away one of his reviews. I don't however defend the Timeout on 3rd and 7, that was stupid, but it seemed like JC was the one who wanted it cuz he was unsure of something. Also the play call on 4th and short was awful...RUN WITH MIKE SELLERS and if nothing else never throw an OUT (esp on a muddy field), throw a swing pass with ur FACE to the defender

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HORRIBLE spot, I agree. But remember when Green Bay challenged the spot against the Bears last week. They moved the ball but GB still didn't pick up the first down and they were still charged a time out. I can't remember the reason (even though Mike Perrara gave his 'yes man' evaluation on NFLN last week). Would would the same rule have applied had Gibbs decided to challenge because Cooley probably didn't have the first down. The time out clearly made no sense. Not that it mattered the way the Skins couldn't move the ball at the end.

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Yupp that is the only one I was not a big fan of.

Otherwise I think the coaches did amazing and the players just could not execute.

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[quote=Rajmahal33;364709]In defense of Gibbs on the decision to not challenge, that is really the responsibility of Saunders or someone up in the booth with access to multiple camera angles to make that call. It is really hard to know from the sideline that the spot was bad when it happened on the other sideline. It could have gone on Cooley as well b/c he has to let Gibbs know but i didn't see him running over to the sideline and pleading his case. Also given the lack of definitive markers to respot the ball (since he dove out of bounds), the call probably wouldnt have been overturned (as most spotting reveiws aren't) and almost certainly wouldn't have given us a first down. How is Gibbs supposed to intuitively know that the spot was bad and just throw away one of his reviews. I don't however defend the Timeout on 3rd and 7, that was stupid, but it seemed like JC was the one who wanted it cuz he was unsure of something. Also the play call on 4th and short was awful...RUN WITH MIKE SELLERS and if nothing else never throw an OUT (esp on a muddy field), throw a swing pass with ur FACE to the defender[/quote]

Wrong, Sellers was just the first read on the play. McCardell was open and JC just messed up. He got scared and threw a quick pass.

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[quote=hooskins;364718]Wrong, Sellers was just the first read on the play. McCardell was open and JC just messed up. He got scared and threw a quick pass.[/quote]Can we just ditch that play altogether? Gibbs ran the same swing pass to the flat on 2nd down at the goal line against the Giants. Campbell is not particularly accurate on throws to the flat. It reeks of Martyball - run a 1 yard route on 4th and 2.

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For real......I'm gonna keep saying it....can anyone really prevent 275 pound mike sellers from gaining a yard and a half?

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[QUOTE=The Zimmermans;364621]i was so F****** angry about the play call on 4 and 2 though

AFTER A WASTED TIMEOUT!!!!!!!! LETS GIVE THE BALL TO BETTS[/QUOTE]

What doesn't make sense on that play is that they cleared out the backfield, why on 4th and short you don't have a RB in the backfield to make the defense respect the run is stupid, once you clear out the backfield you become 1 dimensional, play action in that situation if you decide to throw it is a big advantage to forcing LB's to commit to the run opening the short routes, the fact that we only needed 2 yards allows the defense to start jumping the short routes which in turn gets you a 1 yard pass on 4th and 2, and it's not the first time they have went with that set the last couple of years in those type of situations.

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[quote=SC Skins Fan;364714]HORRIBLE spot, I agree. But remember when Green Bay challenged the spot against the Bears last week. They moved the ball but GB still didn't pick up the first down and they were still charged a time out. I can't remember the reason (even though Mike Perrara gave his 'yes man' evaluation on NFLN last week). Would would the same rule have applied had Gibbs decided to challenge because Cooley probably didn't have the first down. The time out clearly made no sense. Not that it mattered the way the Skins couldn't move the ball at the end.[/quote]

SC Skins, I understand your logic, but look at it this way, we challenge the spot, it gets overturned, the Skins pick up an extra yard or yard and a half, they STILL get charged a timeout because they don't get the first, but now you have 4th a 1/2 and not 4th and 2. Net result.... you gained 1 yard to 1 1/2 yards during the timeout you were going to take anyway? Ok, I saw this and thought this during the game, not now on Monday afternoon. I don't get paid millions to tell Gibbs to challenge, but someone does!!! Why don't they see these things that we all see?

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[quote=The Zimmermans;364731]For real......I'm gonna keep saying it....can anyone really prevent 275 pound mike sellers from gaining a yard and a half?[/quote]


Whatever happened to the 1982 Gibbs, Sellers wears the number 45..... scratch thru his number put "-1" on the back make him 45-1 and run right up the middle ala Riggins!!! I like that over a flare pass on a wet field any day.. Football is a simple game when the conditions get bad. Run run run!!!

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[quote=SouperMeister;364727]Can we just ditch that play altogether? Gibbs ran the same swing pass to the flat on 2nd down at the goal line against the Giants. Campbell is not particularly accurate on throws to the flat. It reeks of Martyball - run a 1 yard route on 4th and 2.[/quote]

If you know anything about football you would know a play has multiple reads. Those are options, like in Madden. Remember all those routes?? The ones that are orange are primary reads, and the rest are nonprimary. So it falls on Campbell, because he is suppose to read the coverage and notice Sellers was not open.

I really don't think is any room to criticize the coaching staff on that call, all Campbells fault.

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[quote=Mattyk72;364652]It was the right call to go for it. A 50 yard attempt on a sloppy track would have been dumb.[/quote]I think if you felt that your team couldn't get one and a half yards running between the tackles, you should have kicked the field goal.

Now, that doesn't mean I thought we should have run between the tackles without thinking about it. 4th and short is usually a great time to go to the end zone off play action. The point is that we obviously didn't think we would get the first down if we ran between that tackles. Or at least Saunders didn't. That's why we ran a combination route to Betts in the flat.

Here's how the sideline conversation should have gone:

Gibbs: "What do you think about running Portis off the left guard here?"

Saunders: "I think that they will be ready for it, and I don't trust the injured line to get a push."

Gibbs then sends out the field goal unit.

Or it could have gone like this:

Gibbs: "What do you think about running Portis off the left guard here?"

Saunders: "Could work, but I'd like to take a shot now. If they bite, we could win the game right here."

And Gibbs sends out the offense.

Instead we pretty much spend two timeouts and run the worst play call possible. And Campbell too, he shouldn't throw that pass when it clearly isn't there. Come off that guy and go to your second read.

Now, that isn't what lost us the game at all, but still a major f-up by the offensive coaching staff.

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[quote=hooskins;364758]If you know anything about football you would know a play has multiple reads. Those are options, like in Madden. Remember all those routes?? The ones that are orange are primary reads, and the rest are nonprimary. So it falls on Campbell, because he is suppose to read the coverage and notice Sellers was not open.

I really don't think is any room to criticize the coaching staff on that call, all Campbells fault.[/quote]

Maybe you could chalk that one up to inexperience. Sellers was his first read and he dumped it off to him immediately. McCardell was his second read, was wide open in the flat, and probably could have had at least a 10-15 gain. I'd blame that one play on JC maybe, but he did too many other things right to hamper on that one decision...

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[quote=GMScud;364767]Maybe you could chalk that one up to inexperience. Sellers was his first read and he dumped it off to him immediately. McCardell was his second read, was wide open in the flat, and probably could have had at least a 10-15 gain. I'd blame that one play on JC maybe, but he did too many other things right to hamper on that one decision...[/quote]

Oh I am not talking about the entire game. Just that one play. I think Campbell did good overall. Just bad execution by other players. Aka wide receivers and perhaps backs.

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[quote=scowan;364748]SC Skins, I understand your logic, but look at it this way, we challenge the spot, it gets overturned, the Skins pick up an extra yard or yard and a half, they STILL get charged a timeout because they don't get the first, but now you have 4th a 1/2 and not 4th and 2. Net result.... you gained 1 yard to 1 1/2 yards during the timeout you were going to take anyway? Ok, I saw this and thought this during the game, not now on Monday afternoon. I don't get paid millions to tell Gibbs to challenge, but someone does!!! Why don't they see these things that we all see?[/quote]

I still think some of you don't understand the Challenge Rule. If you challenge and they change the spot you are [B]NOT[/B] charged a timeout. If you get a challenge right there is not a timeout, but you get all that time to come up with a play, even more time then a timeout. It doesn't matter hwether or not you get the first down that is not what you challenge, you can challenge a spot anytime you want. If you get it wrong you use a timeout you were going to call anyway, it is thinking like that gets us killed, why not gamble for an extra yard and more time when you have [B]NOTHING[/B] to lose.

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[quote=GMScud;364767]Maybe you could chalk that one up to inexperience. Sellers was his first read and he dumped it off to him immediately. McCardell was his second read, was wide open in the flat, and probably could have had at least a 10-15 gain. I'd blame that one play on JC maybe, but he did too many other things right to hamper on that one decision...[/quote]Just so we're all on the same page, Betts was the first read in the flat, and McCardell was the second read on the slant. I agree that JC made his decision to go with the first read too quickly, and McCardell would have made good yardage after the catch. One thing about Campbell, he will watch the film today, and learn from it. I'm amazed at how many quick, accurate reads he makes after so few starts, even in the face of a killer pass rush.

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[QUOTE=SouperMeister;364665]I still maintain my stance against the reverse - the most likely guy to slip on a wet field when the reverse is called is the ball carrier, because he's going full speed and has to make the hardest cut to turn the ball upfield. Lastly, I hate it when Saunders has to revert to trickery when we're driving with momentum.[/QUOTE]

Of course had it worked we'd all be hailing Saunders as a genius for calling a play nobody would have expected.

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[quote=mheisig;364810]Of course had it worked we'd all be hailing Saunders as a genius for calling a play nobody would have expected.[/quote]

Exactly. People need to lay off the hate. If our players executed we would have won the game. Easily. Stop finding easy excuses people.

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Look, fellas. Gibbs went for it on 4th. The play call has a number of options for Campbell. Watch the play again. He makes the wrong read. MacCardell is wide open on the screen and jumps up and down in frustration after the play. That's the young QB going with a read that worked last week--hello, everyone just forget that????--and should have come off to the slant (which of course, also worked last week for 30 something yards to ARE).

I don't see a fault in the playcalling--you had one wide open WR, and then you had a running back with the ball one on one against an LB, where you needed two yards. We didn't execute. Full stop.

Totally agree about the spot, and the reffing in general--just horrible. That "double foul" was one of the most dubious calls I've EVER seen. I can't recall that sort of thing. If there's contact, and both players push, and then the WR makes a catch, here's an idea: KEEP THE FRIGGIN FLAG IN YOUR POCKET! (That was just one of many very questionable things...)

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[quote=SC Skins Fan;364714]HORRIBLE spot, I agree. But remember when Green Bay challenged the spot against the Bears last week. They moved the ball but GB still didn't pick up the first down and they were still charged a time out. I can't remember the reason (even though Mike Perrara gave his 'yes man' evaluation on NFLN last week). Would would the same rule have applied had Gibbs decided to challenge because Cooley probably didn't have the first down. The time out clearly made no sense. Not that it mattered the way the Skins couldn't move the ball at the end.[/quote]

because i think it was something like it did not make it a first down. because when you challenge that you are basically challenging to try for a first down which in this case the spot was wrong but not enough to give them a first down..
But still why not challenge it hell you still get charged a time out. but you will have a longer time out with them reviewing it and give you more time to figure out plays and not rush to it. yeah i know it gives the def a time out to rest too but shouldnt rush when making a decision that will cost you the game. I would have gone for the FG i know it would have been a long 50yd but didnt suish make one that long before. or atleast line up to try and draw them offsides as i stated in another post. no worries about the center cuz rabach wouldnt be in for a long snap. but on that play i dont see why JC didnt go to Keenan McCardell, who looked wide oopen to me.
I may not have worded it right but thats how i think it was.

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[QUOTE=JWsleep;364901]Look, fellas. Gibbs went for it on 4th. The play call has a number of options for Campbell. Watch the play again. He makes the wrong read. MacCardell is wide open on the screen and jumps up and down in frustration after the play. That's the young QB going with a read that worked last week--hello, everyone just forget that????--and should have come off to the slant (which of course, also worked last week for 30 something yards to ARE).
[/QUOTE]

Exactly!!! We could've had a huge gain on that play (if not scored) if Campbell had seen MacCardell. I mean he was completely wide open. Considering the injuries to our offensive line, it was a good call.