Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

The main reason besides O-Line problems is Al Saunders...I said this in another thread before but still, our offense wasnt holy shit great in our playoff run but that was also with mr. dink & dunk occasional long pass brunell... and we really only had moss & cooley, now when we do bring in better receivers we go and get some one elses playbook and sum1 else to call the majority of the game... gibbs & bruex were doing fine, everything was working better for them, i honestly think the players have not bought into this system or even feel that comfortable in it, sure it may have worked in K.C. to a certain extent... thats all it will work for us, it will not work well against good defensive teams.... Al's playcalling is way to c0onservative, maybe joe influences that too but still, we did not need a new playbook... our recievers arent exactly the fun bunch but they could play similar in GIBBS offense....

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

Just check this out, hope Saunders is right..

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/20/AR2007102000805.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

I believe the thinking behind bringing in Saunders was sound. He and Gibbs are from the same coaching tree, and we had similarities to his situation in KC: veteran QB, a strong O-line in place with a RB coming off a franchise-record setting season, a great TE.... Plus Saunders' KC squads led the league in total offense every year. Unforunately, like many, many offseason acquistions in the past, it hasn't worked out.

That being said I think there are 10 other threads out there just like this one...

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

Hopefully, they will let it all hang out this weekend. It's an opportunity to shut us all up.

It's funny how Williams is back in the saddle at Redskins Park again. Three months ago, everyone was bitching about how he had no people skills, etc.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=Meks;367691]The main reason besides O-Line problems is Al Saunders...I said this in another thread before but still, our offense wasnt holy shit great in our playoff run but that was also with mr. dink & dunk occasional long pass brunell... and we really only had moss & cooley, now when we do bring in better receivers we go and get some one elses playbook and sum1 else to call the majority of the game... gibbs & bruex were doing fine, everything was working better for them, i honestly think the players have not bought into this system or even feel that comfortable in it, sure it may have worked in K.C. to a certain extent... thats all it will work for us, it will not work well against good defensive teams.... Al's playcalling is way to c0onservative, maybe joe influences that too but still, we did not need a new playbook... our recievers arent exactly the fun bunch but they could play similar in GIBBS offense....[/quote]


my personal opinion is your way off base. these plays being called are NOT al Saunders plays. some may be, but big JOE is a HEAVY influence on the game plan and how Al calls the game. Als offense has worked everywhere. remember the greatest show on turf?? remember KC and the 32 points a game they put up for about 4 years straight?? those were all Als offenses. My thing is i think coach JOE is so worried about turn overs and crap that he is scared to really let Al call the plays. Last year was a normal 1st year for an Al Saunders offense. If you go back and look at the stats from his 1st years in St Louis and KC, you will see they were mid to bottom 20's in the NFL. The second year they went up about 10 spots to close to top 10. then of course the 3rd and following years they were always top 3 or 5 in total offense. I just think Joe is not allowing all to open it up so to speak. these guys have been here 2 years w/ al, I think its about time to see what the big O can do.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

i'd like to see it too...

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

I disagree with the original post. Saunders offense has worked everywhere else but it sputters here for a reason. I believe that Gibbs is pressuring Saunders to stick closer to the Gibbs 1.0 formula of establishing the smashmouth running game at all costs before opening up the passing attack. Before coming here, Saunders was to offensive playcalling what Belichick was to defensive playcalling - completely unpredictable. Here he has stretches where he is completely predictable. Against Arizona, it was obvious that the Skins had a conservative gameplan, so the Cards' safeties had little reason to sit back in fear of the deep ball.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=#56fanatic;367713]my personal opinion is your way off base. these plays being called are NOT al Saunders plays. some may be, but big JOE is a HEAVY influence on the game plan and how Al calls the game. Als offense has worked everywhere. remember the greatest show on turf?? remember KC and the 32 points a game they put up for about 4 years straight?? those were all Als offenses. My thing is i think coach JOE is so worried about turn overs and crap that he is scared to really let Al call the plays. Last year was a normal 1st year for an Al Saunders offense. If you go back and look at the stats from his 1st years in St Louis and KC, you will see they were mid to bottom 20's in the NFL. The second year they went up about 10 spots to close to top 10. then of course the 3rd and following years they were always top 3 or 5 in total offense. I just think Joe is not allowing all to open it up so to speak. these guys have been here 2 years w/ al, I think its about time to see what the big O can do.[/quote]

I agree. We're what, 54 games into Gibbs Part 2, and it ain't working on offense. We're paying Saunders $2M a year, time for Gibbs to get some balls and let him call THE WHOLE game, not just parts of it. Gibbs plays eveything so close to the vest, and absolutely DREADS the idea of things like important field goals (he can never watch) and turnovers. The past should be a predictor of the future- Saunders had amazing succeess with offensive autonomy before. He should have it now.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

maybe gibbs handcuffs on saunders is the reason, maybe its not, i just dont think our team is right for his offense, or bought into it enuff, i mean when joe & don were calling the plays we had some great offensive games in '05 ..seemed like we went deep alot more too.... is all im sayin.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

One point about Gibbs fear of turnovers, yes, they can be bad, but also the field position effect of a turnover is relative. Throwing an occasional pick on a 40 yard bomb hurts no worse than a 40 yard punt, and serves to keep the opposing safeties honest. With our line woes, if opposing defenses deploy a safety as a roving LB, we have very little chance of running the football consistently. I maintain that Gibbs/Saunders need to re-establish Campbell as a threat to make plays downfield.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

One thing Saunders has always had until now is a dominant O-line. Last year the line was healthy, but Portis got hurt and we had very inconsistnet play from the QB position, and a defense that was so banged up it couldn't keep us in games. Now we have a healthy backfield, a consistent QB, and a D playing lights out, but the O-line is ravaged. As I've mentioned over and over, we have to adapt on offense to make up for shortcomings. Running left on almost every 1st and 2nd down isn't adapting. It's being stupidly stubborn. I know Fabini and Wade aren't pro-bowlers, but we have to try to mix it up and go in different directions. How about some more screens? How about a throw down the middle of the field?

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

i agree with re-establishing campbell as a threat ... the entire league knew brunell & moss could be dangerous... that effect helped us run the ball in 05

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

did we have the money to keep Doc? ... looks like we could sure use him now

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=Meks;367725]maybe gibbs handcuffs on saunders is the reason, maybe its not, i just dont think our team is right for his offense, or bought into it enuff, i mean when joe & don were calling the plays we had some great offensive games in '05 ..seemed like we went deep alot more too.... is all im sayin.[/quote]
Our O was a drain on our team in 05 and our D was the only reason we made it to the playoffs. If our D was even average in 05 we would not have even come close to the playoffs.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=Meks;367729]did we have the money to keep Doc? ... looks like we could sure use him now[/quote]
No one could have predicted our injuries, and Pete Kendall has done a damn good job in Dockery's place. If we gave him the kind of money Buffalo did we may not have been able to get Smoot and Fletcher, and may also have had a hard time giving Cooley the nice extension he totally earned.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=GMScud;367731]No one could have predicted our injuries, and Pete Kendall has done a damn good job in Dockery's place. If we gave him the kind of money Buffalo did we may not have been able to get Smoot and Fletcher, and may also have had a hard time giving Cooley the nice extension he totally earned.[/quote]I too feel that Kendall has been a fine replacement for Doc. Is Kendall signed beyond this season???

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

right...

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

For the tenth time this is not AL SAUNDERS OFFENSE. I know in KC he had one hell of an o-line but there is no way his offense should not be able to do at least half the same. One important thing he had Priest Holmes in the backfield. Clinton Portis, I thought would have just pick up where they left off but I guess this offense is not for everyone. I mean our receivers are so much better than what Saunders had in KC and they can't even get in the end zone. This is sad. Joe Gibbs has to give up the team and move into the Front Office and become more of a GM and not a coach. I can't wait until Greg Williams is the head coach and Al Saunders is his offensive coordinator. Remember Greg Williams said that we become Head Coach he will hire Al Saunders as offensive coordinator.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

Who else feels this thread title sucks?

Until we can get the running game going it's going to be tough. We don't have enough talent at receiver to just pass down people's throats. The offensive line injuries have been devestating, sure, but it's the NFL and people get hurt. We need to find a way to get those consistent 4 and 5 yard carries on first down again.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

Right, because Gregg Williams has proven to be a phenomenal head coach

(and now comes the flood of Belichick with the Browns comparisons)

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

i say for saunders to start calling more down field pass plays instead of screens with the big offensive linemen that we have cause they can't move as great as the linemen that were in KC. And go back to the counter treys and staight ahead runs of the playoffs 2 years ago

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

also i think they need to run some more spot passes to santana moss thats just a big play waiting to happen

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

the wideout screen, gone. screen passes in general, down if not out. counter tres to the right, out. play action passes, gone.

losing the right side of the line was devastating. but as i seem to recall in '05, we were 5-6 going into the last five games of the year and it took a total team effort to get us into the playoffs.

has anyone seen santana moss? and better yet, how much would u pay for a game worn Brandon Lloyd jersey? Spotless condition. I don't have one, just saying...

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

Reading comments on this thread and others it seems a lot of you are immersed in the details of this or that aspect of the offense, while the big picture remains sort of fuzzy.

I think the big picture is pretty clear: our offensive players are not committed to the offensive gameplan. It's clear in many ways, from the lack of intensity and lack of inspired-play out there to the piss-poor execution. I've also noticed the play-calling does a poor job of getting more than a few guys involved (says something about the predictability of our offense). I understand this is my opinion and nothing more but I've watched every game this year aside from the AZ game and constantly notice the total absence of a spark on offense. Our guys haven't bought into it - pure and simple.

As I said once before, the two big questions now are whether the distrust and malaise among the O spreads to the D (I doubt it, but the D is going to get pretty wore out carrying Gibbs/Saunders & Co. all fucking year) and secondly, HOW LONG DOES THE GIBBS/SAUNDERS ERA LAST (I hope not much longer)?

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

Either way these guys need to cut the shit and let the balls fly. Somebody in the Skins braintrust has throttled back the O in a major way, depleted O line or not. Simply put , we have seen flashes of brilliance only to be drowned with crappy play and lame play calling at times. We either are short or long with the air war, what about the 10-15 yard routes?

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=MTRedskinsFan;367881]Reading comments on this thread and others it seems a lot of you are immersed in the details of this or that aspect of the offense, while the big picture remains sort of fuzzy.

I think the big picture is pretty clear: our offensive players are not committed to the offensive gameplan. It's clear in many ways, from the lack of intensity and lack of inspired-play out there to the piss-poor execution. I've also noticed the play-calling does a poor job of getting more than a few guys involved (says something about the predictability of our offense). I understand this is my opinion and nothing more but I've watched every game this year aside from the AZ game and constantly notice the total absence of a spark on offense. Our guys haven't bought into it - pure and simple.

As I said once before, the two big questions now are whether the distrust and malaise among the O spreads to the D (I doubt it, but the D is going to get pretty wore out carrying Gibbs/Saunders & Co. all fucking year) and secondly, HOW LONG DOES THE GIBBS/SAUNDERS ERA LAST (I hope not much longer)?[/quote]

That's an interesting angle and quite possibly a valid one. We're definitely ho-hum in our execution, and certainly lacking fire. I hope Campbell gets more vocal, or Sellers maybe. I wonder how much we miss Randy Thomas. I know what he can do physically, but I've heard a lot of players refer to him as the "heart and soul" of the team. We may miss him more than we think.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;367891]That's an interesting angle and quite possibly a valid one. We're definitely ho-hum in our execution, and certainly lacking fire. I hope Campbell gets more vocal, or Sellers maybe. I wonder how much we miss Randy Thomas. I know what he can do physically, but I've heard a lot of players refer to him as the "heart and soul" of the team. We may miss him more than we think.[/QUOTE]

I don't know if Campbell is the vocal type - more a quiet leader. I like that a lot and hope JC continues to progress. Sellers is a good thought here though.

I'ver heard the same of Thomas. I don't really think Jansen was a huge loss, especially seeing him pushed around in the preseason and season opener (I remember several commentaters pointing this out). But Thomas was a huge loss - really hope he is back by first of December so we can reestablish the run game and get some offensive spark. It would also give us the best shot at 8-8 or better.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=firstdown;367730]Our O was a drain on our team in 05 and our D was the only reason we made it to the playoffs. If our D was even average in 05 we would not have even come close to the playoffs.[/quote]That's not entirely true.

Our offense improved a little bit every year Brunell was here, and then we went way backwards this year. Back in 2005, we did a lot of things well. We were very balanced, had two huge playmakers, a very cost efficient offense, and could grind out the ball on the ground. We don't really have any of that now. Our QB is playing well, our TE is playing well and our LT is playing well. That's about it.

Portis and Moss both were in their primes back in 2005 and carried that team. Clearly, the leaders on this offense are Campbell and Cooley.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

Wilbon had an interesting take in his chat this week:[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/10/19/DI2007101901722.html]The Chat House - washingtonpost.com[/url]

He said that the offense lacks a truly great player that it can rally around - an icon who can inspire and lead them. Campbell, Portis, even Samuels, these guys are really good, but there's no one who is truly elite; and there's no one who's firey or galvanizing. I think Chicago showed last year that with good defense you can do well with a ho-hum offense, but maybe you can't ever really be better than sufficient.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=djnemo65;367923]Wilbon had an interesting take in his chat this week:[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/10/19/DI2007101901722.html"]The Chat House - washingtonpost.com[/URL]

He said that the offense lacks a truly great player that it can rally around - an icon who can inspire and lead them. Campbell, Portis, even Samuels, these guys are really good, but there's no one who is truly elite; and there's no one who's firey or galvanizing. I think Chicago showed last year that with good defense you can do well with a ho-hum offense, but maybe you can't ever really be better than sufficient.[/quote]

I disagree w/Wilbon's statement about Portis - he is charismatic & has been a team leader since he got here. I do agree w/him in that something is off or lacking. The O doesn't seem to have any personality.

What may be the problem is that Portis has been spoiled & favored by the coach for too long and now he's starting to really screw up w/fumbles. I think he even fumbled but recovered against AZ. A friend of mine made a good point, the fumbles may be due to lack of practice & preseason action.

Remember the 05 run, Portis became a team leader & carried the load. Now that things are tougher & the holes are narrower, I wonder how it's affecting his attitude and how his teamates react to him.

I know Betts hasn't done much, but they should give him more of a chance to establish a rythm.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=Meks;367725]maybe gibbs handcuffs on saunders is the reason, maybe its not, i just dont think our team is right for his offense, or bought into it enuff, i mean when joe & don were calling the plays we had some great offensive games in '05 ..seemed like we went deep alot more too.... is all im sayin.[/quote]


we were playing effective early in the season, but as the season went on in 2005 we struggled as we struggled the following year and this year. Our offense may have been in the top 15, but point wise we still struggled to put points up, which is why they brought saunders here. I was not a big fan of saunders coming here, nor the way his offense worked early last year. However, after researching i noticed his first year with a new team the offense was not very good at all. but the 2nd year was a marked improvement and scored a ton more points. Its the 2nd year here, he needs to be given the reigns a little and call his plays the way the whole NFL knows he can.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[quote=#56fanatic;367713]my personal opinion is your way off base. these plays being called are NOT al Saunders plays. some may be, but big JOE is a HEAVY influence on the game plan and how Al calls the game. Als offense has worked everywhere. remember the greatest show on turf?? remember KC and the 32 points a game they put up for about 4 years straight?? those were all Als offenses. My thing is i think coach JOE is so worried about turn overs and crap that he is scared to really let Al call the plays. Last year was a normal 1st year for an Al Saunders offense. If you go back and look at the stats from his 1st years in St Louis and KC, you will see they were mid to bottom 20's in the NFL. The second year they went up about 10 spots to close to top 10. then of course the 3rd and following years they were always top 3 or 5 in total offense. I just think Joe is not allowing all to open it up so to speak. these guys have been here 2 years w/ al, I think its about time to see what the big O can do.[/quote]

100% agree. AS has been successful anywhere he goes. This is not his typical offense, it has Joe's input w/ out a doubt. On comcast sportsnite, AS said he is aggressive in playcalling and said that their gameplan was conservative on Sunday. AS didn't throw anyone under the bus, but reading b/n the line Coach Gibbs has a major impact in a gameplan. Not saying that its right or wrong. The coach should have a impact, its his team. However, AS you know would like to be more aggressive. In our situation Sunday, i think we could have been a little more aggressive.

AS joked that in other lives his team would do 170 yards of offense in one quarter.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

There are two school's of thought when it comes to game-planning against teams like Arizona and New England: (1) score as many damn points as you can since they will; and (2) keep the ball out of the opposing offense's hands by running the ball, churning out yards in bits and pieces, and running out the clock. The coaching staff chose the latter game-plan for Arizona and, IMO, if they are smart they will do so against New England.

Now, the only complaint that I have about Arizona is that they took the right approach a little too far. Jason Campbell had just 7 passing attempts in the second half of the game. Jason has done enough to demonstrate that he should have gotten to pass a few more times.

So, against New England, on offense we should be trying to churn out the clock by running the ball, but need to at least attempt a few deep passes to open running lanes for the backs. On defense, I'm not so sure the approach that we have been using lately (i.e., play the deep ball with the back seven and rush the front four) will work. If you give Tom Brady time, he's going to pick your defense apart - even if you're dropping eight guys. If you get pressure on Brady, which is no easy feat, he is still a very good QB, but not "the" Tom Brady. So, on defense, I'd like to see us bring more heat. But, no matter what defense we employ, we better be focused on the pass.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;368095]There are two school's of thought when it comes to game-planning against teams like Arizona and New England: (1) score as many damn points as you can since they will; and (2) keep the ball out of the opposing offense's hands by running the ball, churning out yards in bits and pieces, and running out the clock. The coaching staff chose the latter game-plan for Arizona and, IMO, if they are smart they will do so against New England.

Now, the only complaint that I have about Arizona is that they took the right approach a little too far. Jason Campbell had just 7 passing attempts in the second half of the game. Jason has done enough to demonstrate that he should have gotten to pass a few more times.

So, against New England, on offense we should be trying to churn out the clock by running the ball, but need to at least attempt a few deep passes to open running lanes for the backs. On defense, I'm not so sure the approach that we have been using lately (i.e., play the deep ball with the back seven and rush the front four) will work. If you give Tom Brady time, he's going to pick your defense apart - even if you're dropping eight guys. If you get pressure on Brady, which is no easy feat, he is still a very good QB, but not "the" Tom Brady. So, on defense, I'd like to see us bring more heat. But, no matter what defense we employ, we better be focused on the pass.[/QUOTE]

I think we need to get pressure with our front 4 and not blitz. Maybe blitz a bit more but not much. Why give Brady one on one deep? I respect your point about him picking us apart but let them beat us with 15 plays for a score not 1 or 2.........like Sean Taylor deep with Moss, he may get beat once but he'll pick one or two also. Look for him to make a huge play. He's got 5 picks in 6 games and this one will be a major chance for more.

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[QUOTE=Sean Taylor;368097]I think we need to get pressure with our front 4 and not blitz. Maybe blitz a bit more but not much. Why give Brady one on one deep? I respect your point about him picking us apart but let them beat us with 15 plays for a score not 1 or 2.........like Sean Taylor deep with Moss, he may get beat once but he'll pick one or two also. Look for him to make a huge play. He's got 5 picks in 6 games and this one will be a major chance for more.[/QUOTE]

I love Sean Taylor's playmaking abilities and he [I]can[/I] compete with any offensive player in the league. But, I'm not sure I want him competing for jump balls with Randy Moss on a consistent basis. He batted down one pass to Moss when Moss was with Minny (which we all have seen in highlight vids), but I don't want to see Sean Taylor/Carlos Rogers try to battle Moss for jump balls on a regular basis.

I think it's definitely an arguable point about whether to blitz or play the pass, but I'm afraid of what Brady can do to us if we don't hit him in the mouth.

Re: Who Else feels this way regarding offensive woes..
 

If anyone is the problem for the O its Gibbs. He wont let AS do what he wants and the O is suffering as a result. I think if Joe just let AS do his thing the O problems would get better.

That said I also think if it came down to keeping AS or Williams, I would take Saunders if for no other reason than to keep a consistent offensive scheme in place for JC to develop under.