Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

I have read an awful lot of posts recently calling for the coaches to re-evaluate Portis, play Betts more, or even start Betts in place of Portis. Although I agree that Betts needs to get more carries, I cannot understand why anyone would want to start Betts in lieu of Portis.

[B]Argument #1: Betts Hits the Holes with More Power
[/B]I don't really agree that Betts hits the holes with more power. Portis is about as physical a back as you can ask for. Moreover, even if Betts is more physical than Portis, who cares? Right now [U]Portis is averaging a full yard more per carry than Betts[/U] (3.9 ypc to 2.9 ypc).

[B]Argument #2: Portis is Injury Prone[/B]
Portis has been hit by the injury bug over the past 12 months, but people who think Betts never hits the training room, think again. Betts and Portis have missed a combined total of 28 games over the course of their careers. Guess who has been more injury prone? Betts. Betts has missed 16 games over the course of his career due to injury, whereas Portis has missed 12 games.

[B]Argument #3: Portis Has Not Been Productive in Washington[/B]
I cannot believe that I actually need to refute the claim that Portis has not been productive in Washington. Over his first two years in Washington,
Portis rushed for 2,831 yards and caught passes for 451 yards. Portis also caught or ran for 18 touchdowns. Finally, Portis has been incredibly good in pass protection. Now, Portis did have a "down year" in 2006, but what Redskin didn't.

So, are the Portis haters bitching fo bitching's sake, or is it just that the grass is always greener on the other side?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

I'm not sure it even matters at this point who is in there. There simply aren't many holes to hit.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;370274]I'm not sure it even matters at this point who is in there. There simply aren't many holes to hit.[/QUOTE]

I definitely agree that the O-line isn't opening many holes. But, I still think Portis is the better back and can't understand the Portis-hating posters.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

During his "down year" he was on pace for 1,000 yards (granted, just barely) and he did have 7 TDs in 8 games which would have put him on pace for just one fewer than his career high for a season

The grass is always greener on the other side

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370275]I definitely agree that the O-line isn't opening many holes. But, I still think Portis is the better back and can't understand the Portis-hating posters.[/QUOTE]

People like to hate. It makes them feel good

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

For the record I'd stick with Portis.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

When the OL is opening holes for the backs, then both are effective. However, Portis is a much better blocker than Betts, and I believe that is where he gets the edge.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis is better. He's FAR superior in pass protection.

I also like him a bit better as a runner. He can make people miss to pick up an extra yard or two when there's absolutely nothing there. Portis doesn't take hard shots, he twists and turns and always manages to fall forward. Meanwhile, all Betts really does is hit the hole with extreme authority and slash forward with power; the only time he falls forward is if he gets up a head of steam and gets through the first level of defenders. That's great when you have a good offensive line opening holes, but right now, we need Portis in there. Betts can't create, he just runs into the defensive wall and bounces back or gets knocked down.

I think they're equal receivers.

They're both fantastic when we have Randy Thomas healthy. He's the true star on our offense, and he has never gotten the credit. He's a friggin bulldozer, and we miss him terribly.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Ladanian Tomlinson would have difficulty running here with our current run blocking. That said, Portis is averaging around 4 YPC while Betts might be around 3. Add in Portis's nose for the endzone, and it's no argument this season - Portis should be the starter.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

I think Portis is better as well--but I think he's done. He doesn't want to be here and he thinks he is gone after this year. With that in mind, I would rather give the ball to Betts...

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

I've been a staunch CP defender for a long time, and I don't think that the argument is "Ladell is better than Clinton", but more like "something is wrong with Clinton and Ladell might be on par with him". Or, put a different way, "for a guy with supposedly so much more talent, CP surely isn't producing that much more than Betts".

Such arguments only make sense in the context of "well, if we traded Portis for..." type scenarios.

For the record, I think something is DEFINITELY wrong with Portis, just as I think something is wrong with Santana. And both of their issues go beyond the O-line.

Also, though you're correct about their respective yd/carry stats, I think that's a pretty weak argument given that Betts has had roughly a third of the touches that Portis has. More carries equal more opportunities to establish a rhythm and break off longer runs, which increase your average. And, Portis himself loves to claim that he "gets stronger as the game goes on" (though that's total horseshit).

Frankly, the most damning stat in the run game is that even though he's had 3X the number of carries, CP's long run of the season is a tepid 19 yard jog, while Betts' long is 13.

Want to see a disturbing trend? Look at Portis' career rushing longs since he entered the league. They go down every year after his second year in Denver.

59, 65, 64, 47, 38, 19

Those are not the be all, end all of stats, and doesn't mean he's totally washed up, but those "big plays" are a hallmark of a "game changing" back, and the rapid disappearance of those big plays from Portis' stat sheets, IMHO, points to a simple fact that some here need to come to grips with:

Simply put, CP is not the guy we acquired from Denver for Champ. He's not even the same guy who fought through injuries in '05 to set the franchise rushing record. Right now, as far as a pure rusher, he's below NFL average.

Doesn't mean he doesn't "fight his guts out", or that he isn't a great blocker, locker room leader, etc. But I think it means that he is not really likely to be a major element in winning games for this team, at least not this year. And time is against him, as it is against all NFL RB's.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

It should also be noted that Portis had *exceptionally* high carries his first two years here, well over 300 in back to back years. Not a surprise to this squad given what happened last year, but it's also a pretty well known stats that RB's who see a excessive touches (carries + receptions) are almost universally due for injury problems and only a very minute fraction of those RB's ever return to the elite ranks again after such problems.

This effect is well documented among fantasy football circles, but it's worth mentioning here because it really does look like we're starting to see a downward slide in CP's game. If anybody's interested I can dig up one of the articles on the subject, it's an eye-opening (and, for Redskins fans, probably somewhat depressing) read.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=dgack;370341]I've been a staunch CP defender for a long time, and I don't think that the argument is "Ladell is better than Clinton", but more like "something is wrong with Clinton and Ladell might be on par with him". Or, put a different way, "for a guy with supposedly so much more talent, CP surely isn't producing that much more than Betts".

Such arguments only make sense in the context of "well, if we traded Portis for..." type scenarios.

For the record, I think something is DEFINITELY wrong with Portis, just as I think something is wrong with Santana. And both of their issues go beyond the O-line.

Also, though you're correct about their respective yd/carry stats, I think that's a pretty weak argument given that Betts has had roughly a third of the touches that Portis has. More carries equal more opportunities to establish a rhythm and break off longer runs, which increase your average. And, Portis himself loves to claim that he "gets stronger as the game goes on" (though that's total horseshit).

Frankly, the most damning stat in the run game is that even though he's had 3X the number of carries, CP's long run of the season is a tepid 19 yard jog, while Betts' long is 13.

Want to see a disturbing trend? Look at Portis' career rushing longs since he entered the league. They go down every year after his second year in Denver.

59, 65, 64, 47, 38, 19

Those are not the be all, end all of stats, and doesn't mean he's totally washed up, but those "big plays" are a hallmark of a "game changing" back, and the rapid disappearance of those big plays from Portis' stat sheets, IMHO, points to a simple fact that some here need to come to grips with:

Simply put, CP is not the guy we acquired from Denver for Champ. He's not even the same guy who fought through injuries in '05 to set the franchise rushing record. Right now, as far as a pure rusher, he's below NFL average.

Doesn't mean he doesn't "fight his guts out", or that he isn't a great blocker, locker room leader, etc. But I think it means that he is not really likely to be a major element in winning games for this team, at least not this year. And time is against him, as it is against all NFL RB's.[/QUOTE]

Solid post. However, the numbers show that Portis gets more yards per carry in the 2nd half versus the 1st half and more ypc during carries 11-20 versus carries 1-10.

[url=http://www.nfl.com/players/clintonportis/situationalstats?id=POR792942]Clinton Portis: Situational Stats[/url]

So he does get "better" with more carries. I think most starting backs do.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Interesting. Apparently that *wasn't* true in 2005 (ypc dropped from 4.3 -> 4.1 -> 4.0 as carries increased), and in 2006 it was only true of carries 11-20, as carries 21-30 plummet to lower averages than the 1-10 mark. In 2004 it was somewhat inverted, with his ypc dropping badly from 4.6 to 3.3 and then recovering slightly to 3.6 in carries 21-30.

What's really odd is that his early Bronco years don't show that "rule" to be much more true (for example, in 2002, his 1-10 ypc was 6.4; 11-20 was 4.7; 21-30 was 3.4, so that's getting weaker as the game goes on) but then in 2003 his 1-10 ypc was 4.8; 11-20 ypc was 5.5; 21-30 ypc was an astounding 7.4).

So, I'm not sure that this proves much other than to say that it may take CP a while to get started. And that regardless of whether he gets stronger as the game goes on, looking at his career ypc splits in Denver, and here, it looks like his best years are long behind him, IMO.

In any event, my point in referencing that so-called phenomenon at all was to point out that Ladell needs more carries to establish himself in the run game, and improve his ypc. Clinton's getting plenty of action, so I don't think he really has any excuses in that department.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

WTF! Why isn't it obvious to everyone that CP is messed up. Whether he's hurt, depressed, or just looking to get out of Washington there's no real umph there.

Two predictions:

1) When Portis leaves the Redskins and/or football behind he will be one of few players who will talk candidly about how Gibbs never established a rapport w/ the players. CP is a likeable guy who generally likes everybody, but he and Gibbs don't really have any chemistry. And then you stop and think, "Gibbs doesn't really have chemistry with anyone out there."

2. Saunders, if he finally gets to take over the offense, will prefer Betts to Portis (maybe not even keep CP). Portis knows this, and if he already senses that Gibbs is out for sure after this season then he'll likely be traded. If I were Portis I would be looking ahead and avoiding as much punishment as possible this season. It's smart and good business.

Bottom line: IMO the lack of production in our ground game has as much to do w/ the coaching situation (which is a fucking mess) as it does w/ injuries to the o-line.

Thoughts?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

I don't buy that CP would avoid wear-and-tear now because it will ultimately hurt his value on the open market if he's seen as damaged goods. It's in his best interest to have a great year this year, in spite of any O-Line woes we may have.

Also, it just seems to go counter to the way he tries to play. I mean, if he'll jack himself up tackling a dude in a preseason game why would he dog it in an actually meaningful one?

No, I think he's just a guy who has never been built for the type and sheer volume of running we subjected him to when he got here. He was a Jaguar and we tried to use him like a bulldozer. Needless to say, the Jag is pretty effed up right now.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=MTRedskinsFan;370393]WTF! Why isn't it obvious to everyone that CP is messed up. Whether he's hurt, depressed, or just looking to get out of Washington there's no real umph there.

Two predictions:

1) When Portis leaves the Redskins and/or football behind he will be one of few players who will talk candidly about how Gibbs never established a rapport w/ the players. CP is a likeable guy who generally likes everybody, but he and Gibbs don't really have any chemistry. And then you stop and think, "Gibbs doesn't really have chemistry with anyone out there."

2. Saunders, if he finally gets to take over the offense, will prefer Betts to Portis (maybe not even keep CP). Portis knows this, and if he already senses that Gibbs is out for sure after this season then he'll likely be traded. If I were Portis I would be looking ahead and avoiding as much punishment as possible this season. It's smart and good business.

Bottom line: IMO the lack of production in our ground game has as much to do w/ the coaching situation (which is a fucking mess) as it does w/ injuries to the o-line.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Following last season, Portis gave a great interview on the John Thompson Show on SportsTalk 980 in DC and strongly defended Gibbs. He talked about how Gibbs has an open door policy and at meetings encourages people to voice their complaints.

The running game was fine when our backup had 1,000 yards rushing in half a season in 2006. And it was fine when Portis set the franchise rushing record and he and the defense carried the team to the playoffs in 2005

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis. Portis. Portis. Betts can't break the big one and CP could use a healthy O-Line, which we just don't have. No Jansen, Thomas, no big holes to run through. Betts is fine, but he did what he did last year in the 2nd half on a 5-11 team. We're going to be 5-3 after we beat the Jets next week. And Portis is the better back.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=dgack;370401]I don't buy that CP would avoid wear-and-tear now because it will ultimately hurt his value on the open market if he's seen as damaged goods. It's in his best interest to have a great year this year, in spite of any O-Line woes we may have.

Also, it just seems to go counter to the way he tries to play. I mean, if he'll jack himself up tackling a dude in a preseason game why would he dog it in an actually meaningful one?

No, I think he's just a guy who has never been built for the type and sheer volume of running we subjected him to when he got here. He was a Jaguar and we tried to use him like a bulldozer. Needless to say, the Jag is pretty effed up right now.[/QUOTE]

I think CP will jack himself up in any situation when he believes in what he's doing and believes in the team. Again, I have to go back to the bigger picture. CP sees this mess from the inside out and probably says "WTF! This season ain't going no where." (literally, i bet he used those words). Then he realizes that his time here is limited w/ Saunders era just around the corner. I wouldn't want to take much punishment in this situation either, especially if I want to play football beyond my 20's. As to his value, I think CP is sort of beyond some of that shit. I think he wants to win more than he wants to get rich. Don't be surprised if he ends up w/ lesser, but key, role w/ a real contender and for a smaller contract.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=SmootSmack;370411]
The running game was fine when our backup had 1,000 yards rushing in half a season in 2006. And it was fine when Portis set the franchise rushing record and he and the defense carried the team to the playoffs in 2005[/quote]

While true, Portis has been running harder and more to make the same yardage that he was racking up in Denver at a much more manageable workload.

I just don't think you can run a guy nearly 700 times in 2 years and expect him to not break down.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=dgack;370417]While true, Portis has been running harder and more to make the same yardage that he was racking up in Denver at a much more manageable workload.

I just don't think you can run a guy nearly 700 times in 2 years and expect him to not break down.[/QUOTE]

Yeah my point was more to the allusion that coaching is responsible for the demise of our running game

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=SmootSmack;370428]Yeah my point was more to the allusion that coaching is responsible for the demise of our running game[/quote]I'd say the O-line injuries are the number one factor there. We've had 1000 yard rushers in Gibbs' first three seasons back, but this season is the most beat up the O-line has been. Give us a healthy Randy Thomas and Jon Jansen, and I'm sure that Portis and Betts would both be very productive this season.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

No one else has seen portis play half speed???? not just this season, but last season and the season before that, in exception to his first game against tampa. Has no one really seen this??? wow, maybe its not portis's fault....then you raise the question... why do we have him if the coaches run a certain style and we have this style runner? im stunned by alot of you backing portis... 8 year 50 mil running back??? and even this question to come up means he is not worth it period.

injury prone, hits holes (when has them) slow, always seems to fall down, absolutely no agility, quickness or bursting in 2nd level... when he does make to 2nd level... you know he going to fall down forward instead of making that last cut with a burst to create the big run or td run we all have been waiting for since his first rush here. we seriously need to find a RB soon that fits gibbs style. we need our own maurice jones drew or brian westbrook, someone who can play with much more of a burst and every touch you worry its a TD kind of player... 8 yr 50mil for this guy??? NO

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

it would be better id we had an O-line, right now it seems Portis is making something out of nothing better then betts is

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Betts hasn't even gotten a fair chance. Seriously power backs like him are comprable to diseal engines. Plus whatever happened to splitting the carries. Gibb's only said that was going to happen about 5 million times this offseason?

Personally I don't think Portis is healthy right now. And on top of that Betts needs a chance to hit his stride. We've done the Portis thing, it hasn't been working. As a result we need to see if Betts can do better. If he doesn't then fine, but at least give the guy a chance. Three carries a game is not fair, especially when the coach told him he was going to get a fair share of carrries this season. [B]AND ESPECIALLY WHEN he signs a contract that is way below market value to stay with the team. [/B]

Look I love Portis. He plays his ass off and he seems like a fun guy to be around. But Gibbs is doing no one any favors by playing a guy thats as banged up as Portis. If anything his career is getting shorter everytime he takes a handoff from Campbell to the point where he might only have one good year left.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Portis is the new Brunell.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis isn't worth his contract at all; That is my only issue with it all. I'm sure though that if the redskins had a healthy offensive line, everyone would be looking a lot better. Even then though, Portis isn't worth all that money. He should be used a lot more than that split back theory. Thats why you pay that guy big bucks. If you want to have the running backs split the carriers, get ladell and another runner who signs for a reasonable contract. You don't have your "superstar" sharing the load with someone else.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis finds the endzone

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;370411]Following last season, Portis gave a great interview on the John Thompson Show on SportsTalk 980 in DC and strongly defended Gibbs. He talked about how Gibbs has an open door policy and at meetings encourages people to voice their complaints.

The running game was fine when our backup had 1,000 yards rushing in half a season in 2006. And it was fine when Portis set the franchise rushing record and he and the defense carried the team to the playoffs in 2005[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Portis also said in that interview, I believe, that other players ask him to go to Gibbs because of the strong rapport they have. I can't remember exactly but Portis said basically that people use him as a messenger with Gibbs.

So MTFan, I think you are off base with your prediction.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

What I don't understand is why we aren't utilizing a two back approach more. It seems like since the Miami game - by far Betts' most succesful outing - Portis has gotten the overwhelming majority of the carries. Why not try and balance the attack more, especially since Portis hasn't been that productive?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis doesn't have any passion for his game any longer from what I can tell. NFL running backs have an average lifespan of 6 years in the NFL. Portis might have already seen his best days. The Skins need to start looknig for other options.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis is a good running back, I just think is style doesn't fit totally what the redskins needs. Which is a power back, that is why Betts idea type of running back. Betts always surges forward when running, even when theres nothing there. Portis runs side to side when he's in trouble. Don't get me wrong Portis is excellent when we call him to run towards the side but when it comes to the gut or between the tackles his success is very low.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

I cannot believe that people accuse Portis of going down easily, not being physical, etc. And for those of you who do rail against Portis' durability, do you think Betts' is any better?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=jrocx69;370438]No one else has seen portis play half speed???? not just this season, but last season and the season before that, in exception to his first game against tampa. Has no one really seen this??? wow, maybe its not portis's fault....then you raise the question... why do we have him if the coaches run a certain style and we have this style runner? im stunned by alot of you backing portis... 8 year 50 mil running back??? [B]and even this question to come up means he is not worth it period.[/B][/QUOTE]

No, it was to point out: (a) how fickle many fans are; (b) that Betts is NOT more durable than Portis; (c) that Portis has been very productive in D.C.; and (d) to quiet the fans in D.C. that always want to bench the starter and start the guy riding the bench.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis was never a great tackle breaker, but this season he has shown zero ability to make any sort of a play.

I look to a play in the first quarter of yesterday's game as my example. It was a draw play where Portis cut back and Vrabel "legally" horsecollared him to the ground. That play had a ton of open space, some great design, and pretty decent blocking. Vrabel was totally out of position, and all he was able to do was get about three fingers inside Portis' shoulder pads.

Portis has to run through that. If he has to take Vrabel's arm with him, so be it. But you absouletly can not get taken down like that if you are an NFL running back. That play has become far too common this year.

I love the intensity the guy plays with but if he's not going to help us in the running game, we might as well put in someone who can.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

One of the biggest myths in Redskins history is that Betts is a power back.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370526]I cannot believe that people accuse Portis of going down easily, not being physical, etc. And for those of you who do rail against Portis' durability, do you think Betts' is any better?[/quote]

The answer is that for what each is being paid, we're basically getting roughly equal contribution from both of those guys. Look, I don't see how anybody can look at CP's numbers and think he is not losing it. It's right there, staring you in the face.

The only way Portis can achieve the kinds of yardage we expect is to run him into the ground, which is what we did when he got here. And that approach doesn't come without a price. We're all getting to witness that right now.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Another Poll

TRASH or LLOYD

Make your pick. The odds of completing a pass downfield to thrash with asante samuel on him is lowe than the odds of us winning that game, agreed?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;370274]I'm not sure it even matters at this point who is in there. There simply aren't many holes to hit.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much says it all. I'm not sure Ladainian Tomlison would find much running room behind this patchwork offensive line.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Sorry, but this whole debate seems kind of pointless. At this point we're not evaluating the RB on his individual merits because the line is completely debilitated. With a very, very few exceptions a RB is probably only going to be as good as his offensive line. Same goes for about 99% of QBs.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=mheisig;370680]Pretty much says it all. I'm not sure Ladainian Tomlison would find much running room behind this patchwork offensive line.[/quote]

He wouldn't be putting up the same numbers he is now, but there's still been no good explanation for why Portis' effectiveness seems to have decreased every year since he got here, other than the one I proposed.

I mean, you guys can say "Portis is the best back we have" all day long, but it still won't change the fact that he's losing his effectiveness every week and hasn't looked like the guy we traded for in almost 2 years.

The bigger question is can he turn it around. In my view, I don't think so. We squandered his golden years and ran him into the ground.