Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Is it more than a coincidence that the two games in which our offense has looked sharpest are the two where Moss has sat out?

It seems like without him to lean on, the passing game is more fluid and open.

Thoughts?

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

I still think of Moss as our #1 receiver, despite the off year he's been having. However, I have been disappointed with him this year. I don't know if it's a slump, the ol' injury bug, or both. I think what we have are receivers who are hungry to get in there and make a play for this team. Guys like KM and JT. In the first year with Moss, Santana had a lot to prove to us. I think he needs to get that mentality back for us, but I believe we do need him still down the stretch.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

No. When Moss is healthy, the offense is far better with him. When he's dinged up, it affects JC's throw timing. A healthy moss makes the long bomb catch that Lloyd missed today.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Yeah I suppose I meant to say the Moss of 2007, not the healthy Moss we have seen in past years.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

I think Moss is a bit of a head case at this point. All the drops and injuries, benching himself in the GB game... Look how well the passing game got going today with a few guys taller than 5-9 catching balls! Why not do a three WR mix of McCardell, Randle El, and Caldwell? Randle El had another bad drop today, but has still been solid. McCardell has looked great every time he's been in, and Caldwell has a lot of experience. Thrash was awesome today, but his knee injury looked bad. This is a lost season for Moss I think. If he's healthy you have to play him some (I'm not suggesting we bench him), but get the other guys in the mix like today. I'd say it's a safe bet we go after a bigger WR either in the draft or FA this offseason. Lloyd-Moss-El hasn't worked out.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;376967]Yeah I suppose I meant to say the Moss of 2007, not the healthy Moss we have seen in past years.[/QUOTE]

The Moss of 2007 has definitely been a huge disappointment. Besides the injuries, he's dropped quite a few of very catchable passes this season.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;376958]Is it more than a coincidence that the two games in which our offense has looked sharpest are the two where Moss has sat out?

It seems like without him to lean on, the passing game is more fluid and open.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I remember getting killed for saying this in another thread a long time ago. But I'll say it again. SM is nothing more than a good #2 NFL WR. He is not a #1. So I think when he is out it's not like our offense crumbles. We need him on the field but life goes on.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

no we're not better without him, but we do have a glaring need at wideout... I think moss can be a hell of a speedster, and we need a fast tall strong wideout to complement him and take away the best defenders from ganging up on him...

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Forget 07 Moss, in the last two years, he's a very streaky player, in 05, he had 9 TD's, 5 were in 3 consecutive games, and two others were in the same game, and in 06, he had 3 TD's in 1 game then had 1 the next, then shut down for weeks. Do I think he's gonna get hot and start scoring again? No. I was just throwing those facts out there.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

If he's going to be dinged up, then he probably isn't any better than the guys we've been playing in his absence.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

I have been toying with the notion that outside of Moss' first year here he looks more like a deadly slot guy than a #1. To me a speed guy and game breaker like him should be downfield busting up secondaries or getting WR screens. Not being relied on as the go to guy play in and play out. He isn't a possession guy and isn't as dominant as I'd like in a #1. I still think is great when healthy but I just thinks he fits better in a supporting type roll. I'd even move ARE to #1 where he can run slants and mid outs and hooks and let Moss press the secondary it just seems like a better fit to me. He certainly doesn't fit the traditional mold of a #1.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

If Moss is healthy, hell no we're not better without him. The guy stretches the field if Gibbs/Saunders give him a chance to do so. I've counted 3 times this year that Campbell has missed him for wide open TD bombs. The way Campbell looked today, I have faith that Moss will make plays for us once he's healthy.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

plain and simple, no

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;376968]I think Moss is a bit of a head case at this point. All the drops and injuries, benching himself in the GB game... Look how well the passing game got going today with a few guys taller than 5-9 catching balls! Why not do a three WR mix of McCardell, Randle El, and Caldwell? Randle El had another bad drop today, but has still been solid. McCardell has looked great every time he's been in, and Caldwell has a lot of experience. Thrash was awesome today, but his knee injury looked bad. This is a lost season for Moss I think. If he's healthy you have to play him some (I'm not suggesting we bench him), but get the other guys in the mix like today. [B]I'd say it's a safe bet we go after a bigger WR either in the draft or FA this offseason. Lloyd-Moss-El hasn't worked out.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, you hate to basically write off this wideout lineup, but to me, this was the make or break year for the Moss/Lloyd/Randle El experiment.

This season, it's been an utter disaster. Since pass protection has generally been good, you can't put this one on offensive line injuries either. Maybe it's the development curve of Jason Campbell, but usually a team knows whether or not this combination of QB and receivers are going to work out. Year two should be when things begin to take off.

How ironic that after hearing that no wide receiver on the team has caught a touchdown yet, the one who finally does is way down the depth chart (and true to form for 2007, is probably gone for a long time due to injury).

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

no we need moss\, we sure can do without lloyd that for sure. this was his chance to step and it he didnt. unfortually like spings he always injured. so that kills the team.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

That's the problem with having small recievers, they are more injury prone.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

I don't know if we're better off without him, but the more comfortable Jason get's, I think he's less important to us, that's for sure. He seems like the type of guy that has to be 100% healthy to be effective. In other words, playing through injuries isn't his thing.

I think he's a Redskins next year for sure, but Jason is proving he doesn't need Moss on the field to get it done.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

For some reason it seems Moss and JC just can't get on the same page. Now that Moss has spent the better part of the last 2 seasons banged up, I really think the team might look in another direction this offseason. I love the guy and he's a big play WR when healthy, but we need a guy that's going to be on the field more often than not.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

I think Moss and ARE are too similar. Both are homerun hitters who will drop an easy pass occasionally or falter when less than 90%. They also provide the electrifying and game changing plays that SportsCenter was made for. When the two of them are your starters there is no possesion move the chains guy (save for Cooley who ends up having too often to block on 3rd down).

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Injuries have derailed him this year, to start the year off him and Campbell were connecting on those deep balls, remember the 49 yard gem against the Giants? We knew before we traded for him, or at least we should have known, that he is a bit injury prone. But when healthy he is definitely a #1 WR, or have we forgotten he did make the Pro Bowl a couple years back?

I'm confused, how is Thrash's good game a black mark on Moss? That's like Bett's production last year reflecting poorly on Portis, and neither one make sense to me. These are good things, if anything when Moss gets healthy that means Thrash as the #3 wideout makes our offense even better, or am I missing the point?

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

no way. I think how much better our offense would be if they let Jason throw the ball like yesterday when Moss is in the game. The two games they let Jason throw the ball he has looked pretty damn good. Just so happened moss was hurt. When moss has been on the field, the game plan has just seemed more conservative. If the let Jason run the offense from a spread formation, moss, randel el, cooley, Lloyd (yes Lloyd!!) and spread the ball around it would be a dynamic offense.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Ugh... enough with Lloyd already. Give it up the guy is a bum.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;377094]For some reason it seems Moss and JC just can't get on the same page. Now that Moss has spent the better part of the last 2 seasons banged up, I really think the team might look in another direction this offseason. I love the guy and he's a big play WR when healthy, but we need a guy that's going to be on the field more often than not.[/QUOTE]

Was Moss banged up last year? One has to wonder if the "funk" he's in has more to do with the direction he sees this team heading in.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;377116]Was Moss banged up last year? One has to wonder if the "funk" he's in has more to do with the direction he sees this team heading in.[/quote]

Yeah he missed time last year with nagging injuries too

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;377112]Ugh... enough with Lloyd already. Give it up the guy is a bum.[/quote]



LOL!! Call me crazy Matty but I still have a hard time thinking the kid can't catch the damn ball. If he isn't in the game he cant catch it, plus if he is getting one ball thrown to him every game, and that ball he get thrown to him is 5 yards over thrown, and he makes an all out effor diving and just goes of the tips, I dont see him making those catches. I have seen this guy play, he can play. he needs to be on the field when they go 3 or 4 wr.

Hell, McCardell caught some balls when they went 3 or 4 wide, even a damn TD. Lloyd can play, he just needs some PT and some balls thrown his way.

I did drink all day and all night yesterday, am I still feeling it??

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=#56fanatic;377124]LOL!! Call me crazy Matty but I still have a hard time thinking the kid can't catch the damn ball. If he isn't in the game he cant catch it, plus if he is getting one ball thrown to him every game, and that ball he get thrown to him is 5 yards over thrown, and he makes an all out effor diving and just goes of the tips, I dont see him making those catches. I have seen this guy play, he can play. he needs to be on the field when they go 3 or 4 wr.

Hell, McCardell caught some balls when they went 3 or 4 wide, even a damn TD. Lloyd can play, he just needs some PT and some balls thrown his way.

I did drink all day and all night yesterday, am I still feeling it??[/quote]

Yep, you're crazy.

If Lloyd could play he would be on the field more. That fact that the coaches trust McCardell who joined the team during the season more than Lloyd who's been here for 1.5 seasons now is very telling.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Maybe JC looks more to Moss when he is in and gets lock onto him instead of looking him off when he is not open. When he is not in JC is looking the field over more and hitting the open guy.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;377151]Maybe JC looks more to Moss when he is in and gets lock onto him instead of looking him off when he is not open. When he is not in JC is looking the field over more and hitting the open guy.[/QUOTE]

Essentially the point I was trying to make.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

I agree once again. I think that when Moss is in JC thinks that he MUST throw the ball to him, and he gets some tunnel vision. Moss and JC just can't seem to get a rhythm and get adjusted to each other and honestly if it hasn't happened by now I don't think there is much of a chance it will ever happen. I'm not sure if we are better off without Moss but it's starting to look that way.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;377038]Yeah, you hate to basically write off this wideout lineup, but to me, this was the make or break year for the Moss/Lloyd/Randle El experiment.

This season, it's been an utter disaster. Since pass protection has generally been good, you can't put this one on offensive line injuries either. Maybe it's the development curve of Jason Campbell, but usually a team knows whether or not this combination of QB and receivers are going to work out. Year two should be when things begin to take off.

How ironic that after hearing that no wide receiver on the team has caught a touchdown yet, the one who finally does is way down the depth chart (and true to form for 2007, is probably gone for a long time due to injury).[/quote]

By far and large it has been a disaster, but ARE has been pretty damned effective when he's been healthy. And let's not forget that he was stopped on the 1, what, 3 or 4 times? The whole "no TD's to WR" stat is a little misleading there, and if our goal line run game was the slam dunk it should have been, you'd be reading about how dominant our RB's are.

As I have been saying for some time, I do think something isn't right with Moss. Lloyd isn't even worth discussing because he's poison on and off the field. ARE is worth the money we paid him, IMO, and I don't want to see him go anywhere.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Moss is having an off year, that's for sure. The WR corps suffers when it's #1 WR is having a bad year, and I think that is the case for the Skins. We are not better off without Moss, however, I think Moss to this point has been misused.

Gibbs 1.0 had the posse. 2 guys that could stretch the field (Clark, Sanders) and one stoic guy who was the possession receiver, the go to guy when you needed that first down (Monk). Gibbs 2.0 hasn't had the stoic possession receiver. They have the 2 guys who can stretch the field (Moss, ARE), but do not have the possession guy. Moss has been playing the possession role, and I think he's cracking under the pressure a bit this year. The drops and injuries are just getting to him to the point where it's affecting his gameplay.

Thrash stepped up huge this past Sunday, and unfortunately a big special teamer is lost now. But, he showed that this team can move the ball down the field in chunks (2 31 yard receptions)

I think the guy the Skins need to look to in the next few weeks is Keenan McCardell. He is the guy that can fill the possession role quite nicely. It will also allow Moss to go back to the role of field stretcher, getting open behind the secondary.

But with injuries to Thrash and Moss, there is another guy who will be fighting for his career, that can step up, as this is a good a time as any, and that's Brandon Lloyd. And while he's seen a poison, this is a great chance to show potential and play down all the talk and whispers that have been going on.

It'll most likely be ARE, McCardell and Lloyd as your 3 receivers this weekend against the Cowboys, and quite honestly, the Redskins could be worse off. However, these 3 guys need to step it up and provide Campbell with huge targets to hit.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

I don't see a thing of it as being better without him but more as a note of saying, we don't necessarily need him to have a solid (*crosses fingers*) receiving core. It seems as if as long as we spread it around and give everyone amply opportunity, along with a pass with good touch, that they'll get it done.

Moss is still #1 and we still need him.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic;377124]LOL!! Call me crazy Matty but I still have a hard time thinking the kid can't catch the damn ball. If he isn't in the game he cant catch it, plus if he is getting one ball thrown to him every game, and that ball he get thrown to him is 5 yards over thrown, and he makes an all out effor diving and just goes of the tips, I dont see him making those catches. I have seen this guy play, he can play. he needs to be on the field when they go 3 or 4 wr.

Hell, McCardell caught some balls when they went 3 or 4 wide, even a damn TD. Lloyd can play, he just needs some PT and some balls thrown his way.

I did drink all day and all night yesterday, am I still feeling it??[/QUOTE]

BL was on the field plenty and did squat. The guy simply doesn't get open for some reason and that has granted him zero confidence from JC. If your QB has no confidence in you then your chances are pretty slim. At this point the only way this works out well for him is if our WRs get totally decimated and BL is the only one left. Then maybe JC would go to him more and they could build some confidence.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Actually I know why he doesn't get open. Per JLC he doesn't undestand the scheme and has refused to learn more than one of the WR positions. Our offense requires execution from the WRS since they have to make correct reads and then adjust pre-snap. It means you have to understand the scheme and know what to do in any situation. You don't notice a lot of confusion amongst the other WRs so it can't be that hard. But BL has struggled and/or refused to figure out what the hell he is supposed to do.

He can bend over and kick his own ass out the door as far as I am concerned at this point.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

Although in recent weeks our offense has been better without Moss. I think that he is definitely our best receiver when healthy, and even if he isn't healthy the opposing defense still has to account for him with double teams and roll coverage because they know what he is capable of especially the Cowboys. In the end I think the offense is better off with Moss in the lineup. On another note I would like to Reche Caldwell get a shot to see what he can do.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;377153]Essentially the point I was trying to make.[/quote]
Well if the case is that JC has a tendency to stare down Moss and not view the field when he is in the game the issue is JC not Moss. He needs to learn to view the field at all times.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=FRPLG;377733]Actually I know why he doesn't get open. Per JLC he doesn't undestand the scheme and has refused to learn more than one of the WR positions. Our offense requires execution from the WRS since they have to make correct reads and then adjust pre-snap. It means you have to understand the scheme and know what to do in any situation. You don't notice a lot of confusion amongst the other WRs so it can't be that hard. But BL has struggled and/or refused to figure out what the hell he is supposed to do.

He can bend over and kick his own ass out the door as far as I am concerned at this point.[/quote]

I remember Sanders saying if you can count to 1-9 then you can play wr in his offense. It's easy for the WR's. Lloyd just sucks and needs to get cut.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=memphisskin;377108]Injuries have derailed him this year, to start the year off him and Campbell were connecting on those deep balls, remember the 49 yard gem against the Giants? We knew before we traded for him, or at least we should have known, that he is a bit injury prone. But when healthy he is definitely a #1 WR, or have we forgotten he did make the Pro Bowl a couple years back?

I'm confused, how is Thrash's good game a black mark on Moss? That's like Bett's production last year reflecting poorly on Portis, and neither one make sense to me. These are good things, if anything when Moss gets healthy that means Thrash as the #3 wideout makes our offense even better, or am I missing the point?[/quote]

A couple years back doesn't do anything for us now. It's what have you done for me lately? And lately all I've seem from Moss is drops, fumbles and injuries.

When Moss came here he wouldn't do anything until he got a new deal. The queston is did he deserve one? Maybe, maybe not. But he got a new deal and had a great year in 05. But it's 07 and it's time to produce like 05, or take a pay cut or we need to move in another direction.

All of our wr's are well paid and yet as far as production goes they are terrible, with Lloyd being the main culprit. IMO we need to bring in a true #1 wr that is 6'4 or 6'5 and can jump and is tough to deal with inside the red zone. We just don't have anyone that is physically imposing that puts strain on the DB's. We need someone that draws safties to one side of the field. Someone like a Plaxico Burress type to go along with all the little guys we have. IMO that should be our #1 off season priority.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;377763][B]A couple years back doesn't do anything for us now. It's what have you done for me lately? And lately all I've seem from Moss is drops, fumbles and injuries.[/B]

When Moss came here he wouldn't do anything until he got a new deal. The queston is did he deserve one? Maybe, maybe not. But he got a new deal and had a great year in 05. But it's 07 and it's time to produce like 05, or take a pay cut or we need to move in another direction.

All of our wr's are well paid and yet as far as production goes they are terrible, with Lloyd being the main culprit. IMO we need to bring in a true #1 wr that is 6'4 or 6'5 and can jump and is tough to deal with inside the red zone. We just don't have anyone that is physically imposing that puts strain on the DB's. We need someone that draws safties to one side of the field. Someone like a Plaxico Burress type to go along with all the little guys we have. IMO that should be our #1 off season priority.[/quote]

I really have to agree here. Even though I'm a big fan of Moss, the fact that he's been injured the better part of this season and last isn't good. As I said earlier I really wouldn't be surprised if we go a different direction in the offseason and try to unload him. We need someone who can stay in the lineup and be productive.

Re: Are We Better Off Without Moss?
 

We are not better without Santana Moss. He is having a bad season because he is slowed by injuries. When Moss is 100%, he is a very dominant receiver when he catches the ball.