F... Kool-Aid
 

This debate, raging amongst several threads, over optimism vs pessimism, over idealism vs realism, over Kool-Aid vs Haterade, is making me sick to my stomach. It's juvenile, and frankly something I'd expect to find at Extreme.

If you're an optimist, that's great. At heart, we all are, because our love for the team drives us to hope for the best. In our heads however, I don't think there's a one of us who doesn't have doubts.

This goofy Kool-Aid vs Haterade thing is all about the battle between your heart and your head. So how about this: a return to intelligent debate at The Warpath.

In this thread, I'd like to hear LOGICAL and RATIONAL arguments for things like:

- Why we'll make the playoffs
- How we'll make the playoffs
- Why and/or how we'll beat the Cowboys
- How we'll make up for injured players

I don't want to see any opinions in this thread that look like this:

I believe Jason Campbell will have a great game, for some reason. [If you can't point to a reason, your belief holds no water. Remember, this is the thread where we return to KNOWLEDGEABLE discussion. No discussion based on belief allowed.]

And nothing looking like this:

I think we'll beat the Cowboys because I want us to beat the Cowboys. No S, Sherlock. Of course we all want to beat the Cowboys. But what we want (or said differently, hope for) is not the same thing as what we THINK.

Come on Warpath, restore my faith in you. Make rational arguments, stop questioning each other's fanhood, and get back to relevant discussion. I challenge the optimists among us to give rational reasoning for why we have cause to be optimistic. This way, we might look at this thread and actually have something meaningful to get excited about.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

Jeez man, it's Friday night and you should take it easy. Make yourself a drink, apologize to her, and tomorrow morning the sun will rise.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=MTRedskinsFan;379033]Jeez man, it's Friday night and you should take it easy. Make yourself a drink, apologize to her, and tomorrow morning the sun will rise.[/quote]

And we're off to a marvelous start.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

What are you, a flight-traffic controller or something?

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

How about this:

JC will have a great game if Gibbs/Saunders put the ball in his hands like last week. He is ready to assume those responsibilities on a regular basis and his playcalling, based on what little history we have, is more dynamic (really I mean less predictable). JC will have a constrained, ineffective game if SOMEBODY else calls the plays.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=MTRedskinsFan;379036]How about this:

JC will have a great game if Gibbs/Saunders put the ball in his hands like last week. He is ready to assume those responsibilities on a regular basis and his playcalling, based on what little history we have, is more dynamic (really I mean less predictable). JC will have a constrained, ineffective game if SOMEBODY else calls the plays.[/quote]

Thanks for the meaningful comment. I agree with you that the offensive staff should continue to trust Campbell to run a hurry-up and open up the offense. But keep in mind that even though they trusted Campbell fully against the Eagles, we still lost. And now we face a much better team. Campbell having a great game isn't the end-all be-all to a W. Though it would be a darn good step.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=Schneed10;379032]This debate, raging amongst several threads, over optimism vs pessimism, over idealism vs realism, over Kool-Aid vs Haterade, is making me sick to my stomach. It's juvenile, and frankly something I'd expect to find at Extreme.

If you're an optimist, that's great. At heart, we all are, because our love for the team drives us to hope for the best. In our heads however, I don't think there's a one of us who doesn't have doubts.

This goofy Kool-Aid vs Haterade thing is all about the battle between your heart and your head. So how about this: a return to intelligent debate at The Warpath.

In this thread, I'd like to hear LOGICAL and RATIONAL arguments for things like:

- Why we'll make the playoffs
- How we'll make the playoffs
- Why and/or how we'll beat the Cowboys
- How we'll make up for injured players

I don't want to see any opinions in this thread that look like this:

I believe Jason Campbell will have a great game, for some reason. [If you can't point to a reason, your belief holds no water. Remember, this is the thread where we return to KNOWLEDGEABLE discussion. No discussion based on belief allowed.]

And nothing looking like this:

I think we'll beat the Cowboys because I want us to beat the Cowboys. No S, Sherlock. Of course we all want to beat the Cowboys. But what we want (or said differently, hope for) is not the same thing as what we THINK.

Come on Warpath, restore my faith in you. Make rational arguments, stop questioning each other's fanhood, and get back to relevant discussion. I challenge the optimists among us to give rational reasoning for why we have cause to be optimistic. This way, we might look at this thread and actually have something meaningful to get excited about.[/quote]

How is one to have a rational debate about a future event that hasn't even taken place with some many different variables at play? Namely, "I believe" Jason Campbell will have a good game? The very words, "I believe" should indicate that there aren't many facts to back it up in the first place. It's part gut and part hope. And if that's the case, what's so wrong about that?

Furthermore, every thread isn't more or less legitimate because it's perceived to be rational or irrational. Tell me, what's rational about a guy driving two hours, mingling through traffic, going to a parking lot full of strangers and cooking on grill in sub-zero temperatures? Then getting in a long ass line for another 45 minutes to get inside a huge arena with thousands of strangers to yell his or her lungs out in the freezing cold for the next three hours? Then coming home to, walk pass the dog, ignore the wife, log onto his/her computer to arugue, cry, bitch or moan with some guys/gals they've never met one day in their life? If you can explain that to me, I'll give you hard core facts as to why Jason Campbell will throw for 300 yrds Sunday against the Cowboys.

The only thing or event anyone can predict with certainty is the weather. And even that with all the instruments, aparatus, and expertise involved is 50/50 a lot of the times.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;379038]Thanks for the meaningful comment. I agree with you that the offensive staff should continue to trust Campbell to run a hurry-up and open up the offense. But keep in mind that even though they trusted Campbell fully against the Eagles, we still lost. And now we face a much better team. Campbell having a great game isn't the end-all be-all to a W. Though it would be a darn good step.[/QUOTE]

Notice I didn't say anything about a W (personally, I hate the guy :screama:)). Putting the ball in JC's hands should give us far better offensive production, as it did last Sunday. But the defense has to play 4 qtrs of intense ball to give as any shot at a W. Something they did not do last Sunday.

Which leads me to this thought:

Landry played FS in college and was very dangerous. W/ Taylor out would it make sense to throw Landry back there? I bring it up because Praylow did not look effective as GW's center fielder, but he has looked very sharp coming in for Landry at SS. I could see Landry in center field because he's very fast and probably makes TO more nervous than Praylow would as FS, and Praylow taking over at SS. I've been thinking about this since Sunday and it just keeps making more sense. Landry was so effective at FS his senior year opposing QBs rarely threw deep on LSU.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

Why isn't this thread called F...The Haters? Why is there this assumption that those that have a reasonably optimistic outlook have no grasp of logic and rationality? Besides isn't a big part of being a fan having hope? How about we challenge the pessimists who come on here saying we won't win another game to explain rationally why they think that?

Will we make the playoffs? I'm not sure. I worry about a "trap game" like the Bears or Bills screwing us over. If we do make it, and I think we have a good shot, I think we'll make the playoffs by building off our accomplishments from last Sunday. The running game has to be our foundation. As long as that's strong it will allow our passing game to open up. If we don't make it, it will be because we will continue to end drives with field goals instead of touchdowns.

Making up for Sean Taylor is really the only injured player I'm worried about making up for, and it worries me quite a bit. He is arguably our most important player. He simply can't be replaced. I really don't know how Williams and Gray will scheme without him (by the way, did I hear Smoot might play Safety??). It is, in my opinion, our biggest obstacle over these next two or whatever weeks.

How will we beat the Cowboys? First of all, we have to play mistake free. No crippling penalties. If we lose, let it be because they beat us not that we beat ourselves. Secondly, we have to keep the ball out of Romo's hands so we'll need long, control the clock drives. But we also have to take some chances down the field. Test Roy Williams pass defense.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

We will make the playoffs (or better: we could make the playoffs) because:

The crucial games in our schedule are AFTER this Dallas game. It is not a must win. We need to take TB on the road, IMO. That's the biggie. After that, two tough but winnable games AT HOME: buffalo and Chicago. That, if we can pull it off, takes us to 8 wins. Then, maybe, one more win gets us in. We've got NY and Minn on the road, and Dallas at home, and in all probability, Dallas is resting it's starters and Thomas and ST are back. And even if we blow TB or Buf or Chi, we could take Minn on the road and Dallas at home. That's 9 wins. May not be enough, but a reasonable scenario that does not require either wins at Dallas or NY.

Further, and this is what made the losses so painful, we were very close in several of them. On offense, I think we have not peaked yet. We need Moss to get going, and JC and Portis to stay hot, but this is a better O then we've seen in 3 years of Gibbs II. It hasn't become consistent yet, but really, a reasonable assessment shows that this is true.

The key is also on how well GW and co can hold things together. They will need to earn their money. How soon ST returns is very important, obviously. But it's not crazy to think GW can shift things and hide things. Plus, with any luck, he learned from last year's debacle what he cannot do. We'll see.

About the cowroids--I am not optimistic, but here's the recipe for winning: One, ball control to limit plays of the Dallas o. And you MUST score TDs at the end of long drives--TOP alone means very little with this high-powered Dallas O. So, again, CP is going to have to put up the numbers. But it's also time for a few big play TDs--we are SO due. On D, we are going to have to have some luck, IMO. If we can get a few turnovers, in whatever way, that will be big. Romo has his off days. Maybe this will be one. If the stars align this way, it could happen.

About injuries: ST is of course the killer. PP has to play WAY better. LL will be in coverage more. Smoot and Springs have to have amazing games. And the nickle CBs have to step up. On WR, hopefully Moss will have some miraculous "I'm in Dallas" moments, ARE will thrive, and KMac will keep showing why he's a quality player. And COOLEY must produce--he's done well against Dallas before.

None of this is koolaid--it's just an appraisal of what we need to do, and what we could do. I am pessimistic about Dallas in Dallas, given the level of their play right now. But I think things could work out--TB is a much bigger deal, IMO.

QED

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=SmootSmack;379045]Why isn't this thread called F...The Haters? Why is there this assumption that those that have a reasonably optimistic outlook have no grasp of logic and rationality? [/quote]

Because, to this point, the overly optimistic crowd has not been able to produce much in the way of hows or whys when making their claims that we'll still make the playoffs. In many threads, they're refusing to consider reality and simply allowing their hopes to govern their discussion here. I'd grown tired of those threads, so I started this one. And thanks to a few great posts (especially by JWSleep IMO), there's actually some rationality backing up the optimistic view.

If we're going to simply talk about our beliefs for what will happen with the team, we don't have much to talk about. The debate goes "I believe A." "Oh yeah, well I believe B. What makes you think A is right?" I dunno, I just believe A is going to happen. Why is B so great? I just believe it."

Not much going on in that discussion.

This isn't to say I don't have optimism. I posted a thread earlier saying how we need to come out and get extremely intense and physical with Dallas, and that gives us a fighting chance. I also agree that a loss here by no means knocks us out of the playoff picture. I also agree that Tampa is a VERY pivotal game.

Just thought it would be nice to get some real discussion going and get away from the bickering over kool-aid vs haterade, that's all.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;379056]Because, to this point, the overly optimistic crowd has not been able to produce much in the way of hows or whys when making their claims that we'll still make the playoffs. In many threads, they're refusing to consider reality and simply allowing their hopes to govern their discussion here. I'd grown tired of those threads, so I started this one. And thanks to a few great posts (especially by JWSleep IMO), there's actually some rationality backing up the optimistic view.[/QUOTE]

And the "haterade" drinkers have been churning out rational, coherent, and persuasive arguments? I don't know about you, but I've read an awful lot of "Gibbs be the worresest coach in the leeg," "the Redskins couldnt beet a hi-school teem," etc.

I've seen similar posts from some of the "overly optimistic crowd." On the whole, however, I think the overly optimistic crowd has been coming up with good arguments as to why we will make the playoffs. For example, people have gone into a fair amount of detail as to how our remaining schedule will play out, how other NFC contenders' schedules will play out, talked about our offensive line starting to gel, etc.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

I won't respond to this thread other than to say the fact that you are "F'ing" Redskins fans of any type or so called reason is wrong. IMHO

During Dallas week yer gonna take my time to read about F'ing Redskins fans? F... THAT!

Wanna be a hater? Try hating Dallas instead of other Redskins fans

peace out
mike

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;379059]And the "haterade" drinkers have been churning out rational, coherent, and persuasive arguments? I don't know about you, but I've read an awful lot of "Gibbs be the worresest coach in the leeg," "the Redskins couldnt beet a hi-school teem," etc.[/quote]

You're right, we can leave that crap at the door, too.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

i want to reply, but am afraid to for not giving the right answers. well, i think the skins offense over the last 2 games has been fine. the running game has really started to work. and Campbell is starting to look like a very good qback. after watching some film of Gibbs one, its time for the coaching staff to step up, and let it rip. take an interception( or 2) for some long pass plays down the field. that will open up the running game even more. lets go to attack mode instead of the passive, lets play not to lose mode. if we stay aggressive, for some reason that carries over to the defense. and while we will miss Taylor, Prioleau is a more then adequate back up. lets at least try to win, and not go quietly. to me, this is a key game in the redskins season. not so much as needing to win. but as much as setting the tone.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

Yeah, I honestly wouldn't mind at all to see JC take a shot or two down the field even if the result is an interception. If he throws the ball long enough the int shouldn't matter THAT much field position wise. Maybe I'm just desperate to see a shot down the field.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;379039]How is one to have a rational debate about a future event that hasn't even taken place with some many different variables at play? Namely, "I believe" Jason Campbell will have a good game? The very words, "I believe" should indicate that there aren't many facts to back it up in the first place. It's part gut and part hope. And if that's the case, what's so wrong about that?

Furthermore, every thread isn't more or less legitimate because it's perceived to be rational or irrational. Tell me, what's rational about a guy driving two hours, mingling through traffic, going to a parking lot full of strangers and cooking on grill in sub-zero temperatures? Then getting in a long ass line for another 45 minutes to get inside a huge arena with thousands of strangers to yell his or her lungs out in the freezing cold for the next three hours? Then coming home to, walk pass the dog, ignore the wife, log onto his/her computer to arugue, cry, bitch or moan with some guys/gals they've never met one day in their life? If you can explain that to me, I'll give you hard core facts as to why Jason Campbell will throw for 300 yrds Sunday against the Cowboys.

The only thing or event anyone can predict with certainty is the weather. And even that with all the instruments, aparatus, and expertise involved is 50/50 a lot of the times.[/QUOTE]

Best post on The Warpath in a long, long time.

No one can say with certainty whether we'll win or lose on any given Sunday. Yes, there is always a chance we can win. There's also always a chance we can lose.

I love arguing stats as much as the next guy, probably more, but when it comes down to it we're just arguing probability / likelihood of a future event. Anyone arguing that they know we'll win or they know we'll lose is just full of it.

You can believe something all you want and with all your heart - that doesn't make it true. I can believe with every last ounce of my being that I can fly, but when I take a leap off of a ten story building I'm going to be sorely disappointed in how much gravity doesn't care what I believe.

I say we form a group of "core guys" to bring back rational thought to the Warpath. We're not pessimists, we're not optimists, we're not drinking Kool-Aid or Hater-Aid, we're fans with realistic viewpoints, rational thought and a heart for our team.

Warpathers for Rational Thought (WRT)? The Warpath Foundation for Balanced and Rational Thought (TWBRT)? I dunno, is someone better with acronyms than I am? Warpathers Against Pessimism and Optimism (WAPO)?

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

Okay, I have waited almost one week to post of this site after the eagles debacle. My wife and I were at that game with awesome seats (15 yardline Redskins side, row 17th row). This was an expensive and time consuming investment. We were enjoying the game until the 4th quarter when the wheels seemingly came off. I could clearly see the fire and drive on the players faces during the game. But, to hear that some of the fans outwardly call-out coach Gibbs during the game greatly disturbs me, and to read the same vitriol on this site is also disturbing. I had 4 hours to reflect on the drive back home from the game last Sunday, and I too was very pissed-off. This team had a great oppurtunity to move closer for a playoff spot, but they blew it. This was a TEAM loss and every man that wears B/G knows it. But, now is not the time to throw bombs at this team and count them out. This team is in the thick of things as far as playoffs go. I am very appreciative for what coach Gibbs has done for this team, past and present and I think he will coach this team to so more great things. I never saw this man on the sidelines in his first tour with the team, but I did see Turner and the ole' ball coach try to guide this team to greatness. And we know how that went. I do feel privileged to have been in the same stadium as this man, for I know that the clock is ticking on when he will hang it up for good, and I don't know if I will be going to another game anytime soon. This man has a great legecy as the coach of this team, and I would hate to see him tarnish that with fans like us calling for his head. All I'm saying is that all is not lost, and there is still plenty of season left. This season has alot of 05' feel to it and we remeber how fun that was. I know that it is frustrating because our record could be so much better but, let's not give up hope. This game with the seemingly invensible cowboys is huge. And the other teams that are with us in the playoff hunt are in big games this Sunday also. Lets focus on the bright side of things, we are still in it. Let's support our team to beat the cowboys this Sunday.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=4mrusmc;379093]Okay, I have waited almost one week to post of this site after the eagles debacle. My wife and I were at that game with awesome seats (15 yardline Redskins side, row 17th row). This was an expensive and time consuming investment. We were enjoying the game until the 4th quarter when the wheels seemingly came off. I could clearly see the fire and drive on the players faces during the game. But, to hear the some of the fans outwardly call-out coach Gibbs during the game greatly disturbs me, and to read the same vitriol on this site is also disturbing. I had 4 hours to reflect on the drive back home from the game last Sunday, and I too was very pissed-off. This team had a great oppurtunity to move closer for a playoff spot, but they blew it. This was a TEAM loss and every man that wears B/G knows it. But, now is not the time to throw bombs at this team and count them out. This team is in the thick of things as far as playoffs go. I am very appreciative for what coach Gibbs has done for this team, past and present and I think he will coach this team to so more great things. I never saw this man on the sidelines in his first tour with the team, but I did see Turner and the ole' ball coach try to guide this team to greatness. And we know how that went. I do feel privileged to have been in the same stadium as this man, for I know that the clock is ticking on when he will hang it up for good, and I don't know if I will be going to another game anytime soon. This man has a great legecy as the coach of this team, and I would hate to see him tarnish that with fans like us calling for his head. All I'm saying is that all is not lost, and there is still plenty of season left. This season has alot of 05' feel to it and we remeber how fun that was. I know that it is frustrating because our record could be so much better but, let's not give up hope. This game with the seemingly invensible cowboys is huge. And the other teams that are with us in the playoff hunt are in big games this Sunday also. Lets focus on the brite side of things, we are still in it. Let's support our team to beat the cowboys this Sunday.[/QUOTE]

I don't know why, but it honestly took reading the post to make me realize that we still have a winning record and that even though tomorrow doesen't look good by an stretch of the mind, we are still in the thick of the playoff hunt. As disappointing as some of this season has been I'm really looking forward to tomorrow, who knows maybe we will win but if we don't it's not the end of the world. We have Tampa Bay coming right up after Dallas and if we can beat Tampa Bay and then have an over .500 record for the rest of the season I think we have a wild card spot.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=mheisig;379092]Best post on The Warpath in a long, long time.

No one can say with certainty whether we'll win or lose on any given Sunday. Yes, there is always a chance we can win. There's also always a chance we can lose.

I love arguing stats as much as the next guy, probably more, but when it comes down to it we're just arguing probability / likelihood of a future event. Anyone arguing that they know we'll win or they know we'll lose is just full of it.

You can believe something all you want and with all your heart - that doesn't make it true. I can believe with every last ounce of my being that I can fly, but when I take a leap off of a ten story building I'm going to be sorely disappointed in how much gravity doesn't care what I believe.

I say we form a group of "core guys" to bring back rational thought to the Warpath. We're not pessimists, we're not optimists, we're not drinking Kool-Aid or Hater-Aid, we're fans with realistic viewpoints, rational thought and a heart for our team.

Warpathers for Rational Thought (WRT)? The Warpath Foundation for Balanced and Rational Thought (TWBRT)? I dunno, is someone better with acronyms than I am? Warpathers Against Pessimism and Optimism (WAPO)?[/QUOTE]

I'm really not sure what was so great about the post you responded to that rendered it worthy of your "best post on the Warpath in a long, long time" designation, or what about it inspired you to suggest starting a select "rational" thread group. The bottom line is that the guy who started this thread, whose post was essentially attacked by the guy whose post you loved so much, basically suggested the same thing--that game predictions come with a wee bit of analysis. I agree witht the guy who started the thread.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=BringBackJoeT;379096]I'm really not sure what was so great about the post you responded to that rendered it worthy of your "best post on the Warpath in a long, long time" designation, or what about it inspired you to suggest starting a select "rational" thread group. The bottom line is that the guy who started this thread, whose post was essentially attacked by the guy whose post you loved so much, basically suggested the same thing--that game predictions come with a wee bit of analysis. I agree witht the guy who started the thread.[/quote]

Yeah I was going to say something similar. In the end, I'm essentially calling for a return to intelligent debate. Of course we can't predict the future or say with any certainty what's going to happen. If anybody thinks that's what I was suggesting when I started the thread, you need to go back and re-read.

But if you're an optimist, and you "believe" the Skins are going to make the playoffs, are you just going to state your belief on these boards over and over? Or are you actually going to say something that may PERSUADE others to believe the same thing you do?

You can't just say "I just believe it." You can't just say "for some reason, I think we'll win." That's not an argument, that doesn't persuade anybody. Give stats, cite examples, explain the hows and whys. THAT is what persuades.

I've seem some great posts within this thread. It's nice to see. We're not attacking optimists and pessimists anymore, we're discussing and analyzing the Redskins on a Redskins fan site.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

As for my thoughts on the team, despite our injury troubles, we still have some strategic advantages I think we COULD put to good use:

- If Santana Moss and Randle El both play this weekend, and in games in the future, I think we have the capability to hit on some big plays which we weren't doing earlier in the year. Moss in particular has seen a lot of near-miss passes this year. Seems JC has just missed him on a number of throws. I'm still waiting for Moss to explode, because he's too good to put up 600 receiving yards as he's on pace for now.

- I think our mental toughness and character can lead to a very physical style of football down the stretch. I want to see JC open up the offense, but at the same time, when we're running I want to see extremely physical football. The mean streak can be taken up a notch. I just recall '05 when we just beat people up in December. And I remember last year when the line jelled and Betts strung together 5 100 yard games in a row. Portis has already started to get going, I can see us performing well in the run game down the stretch.

However my concern lies with our D. I think it's on our corners now that ST is out for a bit. GW needs to let the corners play some more man defense. We're going to need Carter getting after the QB to cover for ST's absence. And if Carter is running upfield after the QB, we're going to need safeties coming up to support the run, because Carter's going to be out of position. And if the safeties are supporting the run defense, then it comes back to the corners to lock dudes down. At least that's how I see it, we'll see how GW plays it.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

The Skins will make the playoffs because they are currently one game out of the WC hunt. The Giants will fold in the second half of the season as usual. They are a good team but their second half schedule is too hard. The only way I see them winning more than 2 games is if NE loses before they play each other in wk 17. The Lions will be swept by GB and lose to Dallas. That's at least 3 losses for them. So, the SKins can reasonably lose 2 games and still be the 5 seed.
TB has no running backs left, their offense lives on the big pass and while their Def is stopping most teams through the air, you can grind out long drives on them all day. If there is any good team that we match up perfect against, this is it.
The Bills offense is non-existent and their defense is spotty. They give up yards but not points. Which is convenient because the Skins get yards but not points.
The Bears D is coming back around but have too many missing pieces from last year. Plus, they still haven't figured out a qb.
With the extra time off, maybe the Skins will be rested enough to play a full game against the Giants. If so, a victory. If not, a loss.
The Skins will beat the Vikings badly if they gameplan them as they did the Lions. The Vikes have no pass defense but the stuff the run well.
Then, Cowboys again who will probably have secured a bye though not #1 seed.
So, 2 losses (Cowboys and either Bears or Giants). Puts the Skins at 10-6 and #5 seed.
Looking past that, they should beat whatever teams win the South and West (IMO Tampa and Arizona).
Then it's GB @ Lambeau (eliminate rain and ....) and finally Cowboys in Texas.
So, at this point, I'm sticking to a season that ends in Dallas after a 10-6 record. And another offseason where I'm pissed until June.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

Most people frequent this site to keep up on the latest redskins news, chat about the season and read about what kinky move AMD and his wife were doing this week when the kids interrupted them. when a thread with a debatable subject is created, we state our opinions. No one is directly trying to persuade people, we are just expressing what we believe.



[QUOTE=Schneed10;379097]
But if you're an optimist, and you "believe" the Skins are going to make the playoffs, are you just going to state your belief on these boards over and over? Or are you actually going to say something that may PERSUADE others to believe the same thing you do?

[B]You can't just say "I just believe it." You can't just say "for some reason, I think we'll win." That's not an argument, that doesn't persuade anybody. [/B]Give stats, cite examples, explain the hows and whys. THAT is what persuades.
[/QUOTE]

Why can't we say that? You did in your very next post and the example you cite is we've been close all year...
What makes you think campbell will connect when he has an open WR?
What makes you think our oline is going to give the WR enough time to run downfield?



[QUOTE=Schneed10;379098]
- If Santana Moss and Randle El both play this weekend, and in games in the future,[B] I think we have the capability to hit on some big plays which we weren't doing earlier in the year.[/B] Moss in particular has seen a lot of near-miss passes this year. Seems JC has just missed him on a number of throws. I'm still waiting for Moss to explode, because he's too good to put up 600 receiving yards as he's on pace for now.
[/QUOTE]

There are something you just can't backup with stats or examples. How do you measure mental toughness of a team? If an underachieving team plays poorly for the first half of the season then finally play up to their potential the final half of the season, are they mentally though?
[QUOTE=Schneed10;379098]
- [B]I think our mental toughness and character can lead to a very physical style of football down the stretch. [/B] I want to see JC open up the offense, but at the same time, when we're running I want to see extremely physical football. The mean streak can be taken up a notch. I just recall '05 when we just beat people up in December. And I remember last year when the line jelled and Betts strung together 5 100 yard games in a row. Portis has already started to get going, [B]I can see us performing well in the run game down the stretch.[/B]

[/QUOTE]

I believe the redskins are going to shock the cowboys tomorrow. Not because of a matchup we can exploit, because it's a rivalry! Weird things happen in a rivalry, unfortunately I have absolutely no definitive proof to persuade you.

The redskins will win tomorrow! HA!

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha]And the "haterade" drinkers have been churning out rational, coherent, and persuasive arguments? I don't know about you, but [B]I've read an awful lot of "Gibbs be the worresest coach in the leeg," "the Redskins couldnt beet a hi-school teem," [/B]etc.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, kind of like:

[QUOTE=4mrusmc;379093]Lets focus on the [B]brite[/B] side of things, we are still in it. Let's support our team to beat the cowboys this Sunday.[/QUOTE]

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=jamf;379105]
What makes you think campbell will connect when he has an open WR?[/quote]

Because over his last four games, his completion % is at 61.3%. In the five games before that, it was 58%. He's improving his accuracy.

[quote=jamf;379105]
What makes you think our oline is going to give the WR enough time to run downfield?[/quote]

Because in the last two games, the line has given up two sacks. In the previous seven games, they gave up 12 sacks.

[quote=jamf;379105]
I believe the redskins are going to shock the cowboys tomorrow. Not because of a matchup we can exploit, because it's a rivalry! Weird things happen in a rivalry, unfortunately I have absolutely no definitive proof to persuade you.

The redskins will win tomorrow! HA![/quote]

You think rivalries cause wins? Because weird things happen? This is why you can't simply state a belief AND be taken seriously at the same time. It was a strong rivalry in the late 90s and early 2000s, and we got our ass handed to us 12 straight times or whatever it was. It's a rivalry for the Cowboys too, you know. There is a team on the other side of this rivalry, after all. Couldn't "wierd" things happen in their favor? In the end, you're not saying anything here. You're just hoping. You have to stick with the word "believe" when talking about our chances tomorrow, because you clearly haven't given it any thought.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

I'm concerned about our running game in Dallas.

Check these numbers:

-- No Redskin running back has rushed for over 100 yards in Dallas since Earnest Byner in 1991 (22 carries, 101 yds)

-- Clinton Portis has been held to less than 70 yards rushing in 8 games against the NFC East over 18 match-ups.

-- Portis averages 76 yards per game against the NFC East.

For some reason, our running game grinds to a halt in Texas Stadium. Portis needs to come through for this team like he did in that 5-game stretch in '05. As a matter of fact, the whole team needs to do that.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;379109]Because over his last four games, his completion % is at 61.3%. In the five games before that, it was 58%. He's improving his accuracy.


Because in the last two games, the line has given up two sacks. In the previous seven games, they gave up 12 sacks.
[/QUOTE]
The stats you provided don't prove much. He has a 61.3% completion percentage on all of his throws. Unfortunately most of those those throws are short routes.

JC has one completion over 50 yards all year. He hasn't completed a pass over 40 yards since week 3. He's missed wide open WR's down field at key points in a game all year. Yet you believe he will start connecting on deep balls because his accuracy on his short throws is decent. Clearly you haven't given your stats any thought.


The redskins have given up 12 sacks all year which isn't bad. but, most of the redskins passing plays are 3 and 5 step drops so JC can get the ball out quickly.
The redskins have only allowed 2 sacks in the last 2 games which doesn't mean much since it was our best rushing outing all year. The redskins dominated the eagles Dline last week. Once the skins gave up the lead and had to pass, they got to JC. if the redskins are in a position where they have to pass, they won't have time for a 7 step drop passing play.




[QUOTE=Schneed10;379109]
You think rivalries cause wins? Because weird things happen? This is why you can't simply state a belief AND be taken seriously at the same time. It was a strong rivalry in the late 90s and early 2000s, and we got our ass handed to us 12 straight times or whatever it was. It's a rivalry for the Cowboys too, you know. There is a team on the other side of this rivalry, after all. Couldn't "wierd" things happen in their favor? In the end, you're not saying anything here. You're just hoping. You have to stick with the word "believe" when talking about our chances tomorrow, because you clearly haven't given it any thought.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely! In the redskins cowboys rivalry, the underdog pulls off upsets. Is it a coincidence that the most unlikely victories/losses in redskins history are against the cowboys? Mark Brunell launching a bomb 50+ yards twice in 1 minute isn't weird? What about the troyvincent fg block that lead to an ST recovery and facemask? On the flip side, what about the cowboys 1 win season, their only win was against an undefeated redskins team that went on to win the superbowl. Let's not even bring up clint longley, the replacements game or any other.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;379114]I'm concerned about our running game in Dallas.

Check these numbers:

-- No Redskin running back has rushed for over 100 yards in Dallas since Earnest Byner in 1991 (22 carries, 101 yds)

-- Clinton Portis has been held to less than 70 yards rushing in 8 games against the NFC East over 18 match-ups.

-- Portis averages 76 yards per game against the NFC East.

For some reason, our running game grinds to a halt in Texas Stadium. Portis needs to come through for this team like he did in that 5-game stretch in '05. As a matter of fact, the whole team needs to do that.[/QUOTE]

What's worse is that this team has won in Dallas just once since 2000. That's 1/6, not exactly a record to hang your hat on. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see us win tomorrow. I just don't think it is reasonable to expect us to beat a superior team in a stadium in which our track record is awful.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=jamf;379115]JC has one completion over 50 yards all year. He hasn't completed a pass over 40 yards since week 3. He's missed wide open WR's down field at key points in a game all year. Yet you believe he will start connecting on deep balls because his accuracy on his short throws is decent. Clearly you haven't given your stats any thought.[/quote]

The problem with grading Campbell's deep ball accuracy is that he averages about two deep balls a game. The quarterbacks who hit a good number of deep balls miss a lot too. Watch any Pats or Colts game, and you'll see a ton of missed deep passes. The difference is, Brady and Manning take around 5-6 deep shots per game. All they have to do is hit one of them and people think they're great at throwing the deep ball.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;379117]What's worse is that this team has won in Dallas just once since 2000. That's 1/6, not exactly a record to hang your hat on. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see us win tomorrow. I just don't think it is reasonable to expect us to beat a superior team in a stadium in which our track record is awful.[/QUOTE]

No one expects the redskins to beat the cowboys but it's not unreasonable to believe that if the redskins can pound the ball and make some plays off playaction pass, then the redskins could be in it late in the game.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

I would like to change this thread title to: F... dallas. We shall see tomorrow what our team is made of.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

I EXPECT the Redskins to Beat DalASS.
Let it be said, let it be written, let it be done!

Ya'll slay me.

Hail Skins!

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=jamf;379115]The stats you provided don't prove much. He has a 61.3% completion percentage on all of his throws. Unfortunately most of those those throws are short routes.[/quote]

Did his routes get shorter in the last four games compared to the first five? No. The routes are the same. The length of the routes doesn't explain the uptick in accuracy.

[quote=jamf;379115]JC has one completion over 50 yards all year. He hasn't completed a pass over 40 yards since week 3. He's missed wide open WR's down field at key points in a game all year. Yet you believe he will start connecting on deep balls because his accuracy on his short throws is decent. Clearly you haven't given your stats any thought.[/quote]

Show me where I said he'd start connecting on deep balls. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said Moss and Randle-El on the same field, coupled with Campbell's improved accuracy, could create big plays. The definition of "big play" is not necessarily a bomb over the head of the safeties. Moss and Randle-El have a suddenness and elusiveness to them, they make sudden cuts, and are punt returners when in open space. A short 10-yard hitch can turn into a big play if the ball is delivered on time and accurately.


[quote=jamf;379115]The redskins have given up 12 sacks all year which isn't bad. but, most of the redskins passing plays are 3 and 5 step drops so JC can get the ball out quickly.
The redskins have only allowed 2 sacks in the last 2 games which doesn't mean much since it was our best rushing outing all year. The redskins dominated the eagles Dline last week. Once the skins gave up the lead and had to pass, they got to JC. if the redskins are in a position where they have to pass, they won't have time for a 7 step drop passing play..[/quote]

Again, who says we need 7 step drops?? Why is that a necessity for a successful passing game? I just can't comprehend this argument.

[quote=jamf;379115]Absolutely! In the redskins cowboys rivalry, the underdog pulls off upsets. Is it a coincidence that the most unlikely victories/losses in redskins history are against the cowboys? Mark Brunell launching a bomb 50+ yards twice in 1 minute isn't weird? What about the troyvincent fg block that lead to an ST recovery and facemask? On the flip side, what about the cowboys 1 win season, their only win was against an undefeated redskins team that went on to win the superbowl. Let's not even bring up clint longley, the replacements game or any other.[/quote]

So let me get this straight. Because two rare events, namely two TDs to Moss within the last five minutes, and the blocking of a last minute FG, took place within the last three years, that means you think the likelihood of a similar event occurring goes up?

So what should we expect this time? A safety to win the game? A bad snap by the Cowboys on a FG? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. This is what you are basing your belief on, that we'll win because of some fluky wierd event, based on the thinking that we've won two games against them because of wierd events? Sure, I guess it COULD happen. But to believe we're going to win because of one of these RARE events is asinine.

FYI - we've had plenty of wierd wins/losses against teams not named the Cowboys. I remember losing a playoff game against Tampa in 1999 because of a bad snap by our snapper. I remember losing a game to the Eagles in 1991 in which player after player went off injured. I remember a tie game against the Giants in which our QB jammed his neck after headbutting a wall.

Wierd shit happens in football, that doesn't mean that because it's the Cowboys, we're any more likely to see something wierd this weekend. It just makes no sense at all.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=jamf;379120]No one expects the redskins to beat the cowboys but it's not unreasonable to believe that if the redskins can pound the ball and make some plays off playaction pass, then the redskins could be in it late in the game.[/quote]

Now this I 100% agree with.

I think you and I are actually in agreement with regards to our team's chances tomorrow. We both think we have a chance tomorrow if we can be physical and establish the running game, and make a big play or two in the passing game. But at the same time we both recognize we're up against it in this one.

I think where we are disagreeing is the hows and the whys. But fundamentally we're on the same wavelength. Even though I've fervently argued against your points, I'd just like to say that I've appreciated the discussion because it has been thought-provoking and worthwhile.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;379117]What's worse is that this team has won in Dallas just once since 2000. That's 1/6, not exactly a record to hang your hat on. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see us win tomorrow. I just don't think it is reasonable to expect us to beat a superior team in a stadium in which our track record is awful.[/quote]

And in that one win we got dominated for 58 minutes and needed two consecutive miracles to pull it off. I mentioned this on another thread, but Dallas' injury situation, or lack thereof, is really a factor. They're one of the only teams in the league to be completely healthy all year. Aside from Newman missing the first few games with a foot problem...

The fact that this is a rivalry means squat. Our only hope IMO is catching them a off guard early. They're an arrogant team, and I'm sure most of their fans think a win is a forgone conclusion. I hope we attack from the get go, but I don't think we have much of a chance.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

If we're going to win it's because they have esentially the same team that we beat LAST year. How have they truly improved from last year to this year? I think that aside from our injuries, we match up pretty well AGAIN this year.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;379135]If we're going to win it's because they have esentially the same team that we beat LAST year. How have they truly improved from last year to this year? I think that aside from our injuries, we match up pretty well AGAIN this year.[/quote]

Last year we didn't really "match up" that well with them. They beat us in Dallas, and we needed a series of pretty spectacular and improbable special teams plays to beat them in FedEx. This Dallas team is quite a bit better than last years...

I think their D this year is a little better, Romo is better, and I think good health and Parcells NOT being there is helping that team more than anything. It is essentially the same group of players, but they're having fun and playing more loose this year. Maybe Parcells was too tough on them???

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;379137]Last year we didn't really "match up" that well with them. They beat us in Dallas, and we needed a series of pretty spectacular and improbable special teams plays to beat them in FedEx. This Dallas team is quite a bit better than last years...

I think their D this year is a little better, Romo is better, and I think good health and Parcells NOT being there is helping that team more than anything. It is essentially the same group of players, but they're having fun and playing more loose this year. Maybe Parcells was too tough on them???[/QUOTE]

Yup. I can't believe I am giving props to Dallas, but they've improved on the field even if they haven't on paper. They are likely going to go deep on us. With Taylor in the game, we can play the deep ball and limit screens and runs to limited gains. With Taylor out, I fear that we are going to have to either surrender the deep ball or allow Marion Barber and Witten to eat us up with big gains on screens and runs.

It's going to be a shoot-out and, thus, Dallas gets the edge.

Re: F... Kool-Aid
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;379139]Yup. I can't believe I am giving props to Dallas, but they've improved on the field even if they haven't on paper. They are likely going to go deep on us. With Taylor in the game, we can play the deep ball and limit screens and runs to limited gains. With Taylor out, I fear that we are going to have to either surrender the deep ball or allow Marion Barber and Witten to eat us up with big gains on screens and runs.

It's going to be a shoot-out and, thus, Dallas gets the edge.[/quote]

I agree- a shootout indeed. I think their passing game is gonna be too much for our banged up secondary, but if we let 'er rip we can score 4 TDs.