Collins & Saunders
 

A really interesting article by Wise from the WP. He's making the case that this is Al Saunders' chance to show Gibbs and the Redskins what his offense is truly capable of now that he has "his guy" in there at QB in Collins.

Also, Dick Vermeil seems to be a pretty big supporter of Collins. I hope he's not just blowing smoke.

Link: [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801372.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I think back to last year when Saunders wanted to replace Brunell with Collins, but Gibbs overruled him and said it was Campbell's time. Part of me can't help but think that one reason for Saunders' support of Collins is ego (apologies to Matty), that he wants to show the entire league that his offense can work even with some "career back-up" running it.

There's no question Collins knows the offense, and there's no question Saunders' offense can and has worked in the NFL. But we'll just have to see how the two play out over the next few weeks.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;391363]I think back to last year when Saunders wanted to replace Brunell with Collins, but Gibbs overruled him and said it was Campbell's time. Part of me can't help but think that one reason for Saunders' support of Collins is ego (apologies to Matty), that he wants to show the entire league that his offense can work even with some "career back-up" running it.

There's no question Collins knows the offense, and there's no question Saunders' offense can and has worked in the NFL. But we'll just have to see how the two play out over the next few weeks.[/QUOTE]


Didn't he already prove that with Trent Green? I mean, other than in Saunders' system, has Green ever looked like a NFL starter, week in and week out? Eh, to me, this season was already over so any late run or, gasp, playoff push would be a complete bonus.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=Mattyk72;391357]A really interesting article by Wise from the WP. He's making the case that this is Al Saunders' chance to show Gibbs and the Redskins what his offense is truly capable of now that he has "his guy" in there at QB in Collins.

I'm gonna ask this again b/c it's relevant to this thread. I think it's a very important question and I may start a thread on it.

SO, what if Collins continues to play amazingly, we win out, make the playoffs, and then Jason is healthy to play the first playoff game? What then?



Link: [URL="http://washingtonpost.com"]washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines[/URL][/quote]

Very interesting article. It'll be interesting to see how Collins plays with a full week of practice under his belt with the first team offense. I'm still really concerned about the Giants pass rush.

I don't think Vermeil is blowing smoke. I asked this in the other thread and I'll ask it again, what if Collins continues to play amazingly, we win out, make the playoffs, and then Jason is healthy to play the first playoff game? What then?

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I'm actually a little pissed that Al's been holding back on the play calling because JC was in there. If he's the guy, then he's the guy. Call the best gameplan to win, not whatever percentage of your "genius" playbook that you think he can handle. That really irritates me.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;391370]I'm actually a little pissed that Al's been holding back on the play calling because JC was in there. If he's the guy, then he's the guy. Call the best gameplan to win, not whatever percentage of your "genius" playbook that you think he can handle. That really irritates me.[/quote]

I agree with you. So what if it's a 700 page playbook? Cambpell's one and only job is to learn it. I know it's a lot, but if he had a year to memorize it, that's still less than two plays a day. Call the plays to win the game.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;391363]I think back to last year when Saunders wanted to replace Brunell with Collins, but Gibbs overruled him and said it was Campbell's time. Part of me can't help but think that one reason for Saunders' support of Collins is ego (apologies to Matty), that he wants to show the entire league that his offense can work even with some "career back-up" running it.

There's no question Collins knows the offense, and there's no question Saunders' offense can and has worked in the NFL. But we'll just have to see how the two play out over the next few weeks.[/QUOTE]

I hadn't even thought back to last year but it's a really good point. I wonder if playing TC over JC so that our future QB could see how the offense is supposed to work would have benefitted Campbell and the offense in general. I know experience is almost priceless but watching something done the way it's supposed to be done could be just as valuable IMO.

If guys are healthy enough to practice the Saunders offense in its fullness and they practice hard we could see things open up even more than against Chicago. I also think now w/ TC in there Gibbs needs to COMPLETELY hand things over to Saunders - there's absolutely no excuse for a rush-heavy, run-out-the-clock, conservative offense any longer.

Honestly, I haven't felt much enthusiasm for our offense all season but now I'm getting excited for next Sunday. Pretty thrilled that it's a nationally televised game!

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;391368]Didn't he already prove that with Trent Green? I mean, other than in Saunders' system, has Green ever looked like a NFL starter, week in and week out? Eh, to me, this season was already over so any late run or, gasp, playoff push would be a complete bonus.[/QUOTE]

What about when Trent Green when he was with the Redskins? But I see your point

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I have no doubt that Saunders' offense works in the NFL. I just question why he may think (and I don't know this for a fact) that JC couldn't utilize more of the offense himself. Campbell is a smart QB, and very talented. No need to hold back on him.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

SO, what if Collins continues to play amazingly, we win out, make the playoffs, and then Jason is healthy to play the first playoff game? What then?

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=GMScud;391384]SO, what if Collins continues to play amazingly, we win out, make the playoffs, and then Jason is healthy to play the first playoff game? What then?[/quote]It depends on how healthy.

If he's close to 100%, you go back to Jason. If he isn't, Collins gets the call.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=GTripp0012;391387]It depends on how healthy.

If he's close to 100%, you go back to Jason. If he isn't, Collins gets the call.[/quote]

I just made a post on this in the "If we win the next three games thread." I'd love to hear your opinion.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;391370]I'm actually a little pissed that Al's been holding back on the play calling because JC was in there. If he's the guy, then he's the guy. Call the best gameplan to win, not whatever percentage of your "genius" playbook that you think he can handle. That really irritates me.[/QUOTE]

I agree!

I'm all for a guy getting experience but there is a difference between a young player learning to play at gamespeed and a guy who just can't run all the plays.

If JC can't run all the plays, He shouldn't be in there.
I don't understand how this organization can begin a season running a limited playbook.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=jamf;391394]I agree!

I'm all for a guy getting experience but there is a difference between a young player learning to play at gamespeed and a guy who just can't run all the plays.

If JC can't run all the plays, He shouldn't be in there.
I don't understand how this organization can begin a season running a limited playbook.[/QUOTE]

Gibbs has final say who QB's, unfortunately it also seems his QB's haven't come close to showing their capable of understanding Saunders offense. I don't think it's Saunders who is looking to hold back on the other QB's to get his own guy in there because of his ego as was stated in an earlier post, [pretty hard to imagine that] but it's more to do with the ability in a QB's mind to be able to apply his system, which apparently Collins is the only guy at least right now who has a clue.

To many guys have been bashing our receivers this season, well, have they been holding back as well waiting for Collins to step in? Kind of ironic that the second Collins takes over we have WR's open all over the field, that is no coincidence, Collins knows how to find an open receiver, hopefully consistently.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=HOGTIMUS PRIME;391424]Gibbs has final say who QB's, unfortunately it also seems his QB's haven't [B]come close to showing their capable of understanding Saunders offense. I don't think it's Saunders who is looking to hold back on the other QB's to get his own guy in there because of his ego as was stated in an earlier post, [pretty hard to imagine that][/B] but it's more to do with the ability in a QB's mind to be able to apply his system, which apparently Collins is the only guy at least right now who has a clue.

To many guys have been bashing our receivers this season, well, have they been holding back as well waiting for Collins to step in? Kind of ironic that the second Collins takes over we have WR's open all over the field, that is no coincidence, Collins knows how to find an open receiver, hopefully consistently.[/QUOTE]

If you're referring to my post, I think you misunderstood me.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

Vermeil seems to agree that holding back on JC has been the right call:

Lost in the debate over whether the offense is Gibbs's or Saunders's is the singular goal of developing Campbell into a consistent winner. And if that is a franchise's stated objective, there is no way Saunders's entire arsenal was ever going to be unveiled this season or last.

"It was too much for Campbell or any young quarterback," Vermeil said. "The volume is so great. Joe Gibbs and Al Saunders did the right thing -- restrict the package to fit his maturity. They aren't running the entire offense right now. Watch. At the start of next season, Jason will be much better than he is now because he'll get more reps in this offense."

Time in this offense is the only remedy, which Collins's has seven years' worth of learning and practicing.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;391384]SO, what if Collins continues to play amazingly, we win out, make the playoffs, and then Jason is healthy to play the first playoff game? What then?[/QUOTE]

Campbell is our QB is healthy. Any other decision is a major mistake in my judgement. He is the long term answer and enough of learning on the sidelines. Maybe Collins knows the offense very well but something tells me that if they'd run the offense the same way with Campbell by now he'd be pretty proficient at it.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I think it depends on how Collins plays. If he continues to play the way he did against the Bears and assuming we win out, I think you have to stick with Collins the remainder of the year even if JC is ready to come back.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I agree. If we win out and Collins is at the helm, I think you have to stick with him. Also, it seems like the players are already confident in his abilities and leadership.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

If Collins lights it up you stick with Collins. JC is still thinking too much instead of it being second nature. Having to think about the play slows you down just enough to mess it up. In the Bears game notice how quick Collins made decisions. I'm sure JC will get that in time.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

It's certainly a wait and see type of deal. I honestly do not see Campbell being 100% once the last week of the season rolls around. If Collins gets hot and wins 3 games in a row and we somehow get the last playoff spot, I think you stick with the hot hand.

Holding back parts of the playbook is by far the best way to handle the situation. He's having a tough enough time executing what they are giving him, why further hinder the situation? I think next year you'll see a much more mature Campbell and Saunders will open the book some more. He'll have one full season plus under his belt, and will be able to apprehend a bit more. There is a reason Collins is able to execute like he can...he and Saunders have been together since '01.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

As much as I'd love to see Collin's light it up for the rest of the season and into the playoffs, I'll go on record as saying I'd be pretty shocked if it turns out that way.

Common sense says there's a reason he's 37 years old and been a backup his entire NFL career, it would be pretty unusual for him to suddenly turn into Tom Brady.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=mheisig;391477]As much as I'd love to see Collin's light it up for the rest of the season and into the playoffs, I'll go on record as saying I'd be pretty shocked if it turns out that way.

Common sense says there's a reason he's 37 years old and been a backup his entire NFL career,[B] it would be pretty unusual for him to suddenly turn into Tom Brady[/B].[/quote]

But it's also unusual for a backup to come into a game and play the way he did the other night.

I honestly don't know what to think right now, obviously I'm hoping that last week was not a fluke.

I'm on the fence, but I'm leaning more towards him playing well.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I posted this in another thread but I'll say it here too. Collins has a noodle arm. An accurate arm, but his passes float. I saw several passes against the Bears that got to their target, but would have been swatted away by better defenses. The Bears can't cover worth a crap right now and they were allowing quite a bit more separation between them and the WRs and Cooley. I'm not counting on that against the Giants, Vikings, or Cowboys.

I'm hopeful that Saunders and Collins can adjust to that. But not holding my breath.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;391489]But it's also unusual for a backup to come into a game and play the way he did the other night.

I honestly don't know what to think right now, obviously I'm hoping that last week was not a fluke.

I'm on the fence, but I'm leaning more towards him playing well.[/QUOTE]

Actually I don't think it's that unusual for a backup to come in and finish the rest of the game with a good performance. Maybe not the standard, but I seem to recall it happening enough that it doesn't seem weird any more.

I think I commented about this in the game thread on Thursday, but it seems almost standard that a backup will come in when the start goes out with an injury, the backup will play a great game, but when he comes back next week he gets torn apart. I think it has something to do with the defense preparing for the starter, and the backup is just someone they don't have a lot of film on, haven't practiced and haven't gameplanned for.

This is all purely conjecture as I have no stats with which to back it up. Just something I've seemed to notice.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=Schneed10;391512]I posted this in another thread but I'll say it here too. Collins has a noodle arm. An accurate arm, but his passes float. I saw several passes against the Bears that got to their target, but would have been swatted away by better defenses. The Bears can't cover worth a crap right now and they were allowing quite a bit more separation between them and the WRs and Cooley. I'm not counting on that against the Giants, Vikings, or Cowboys.

I'm hopeful that Saunders and Collins can adjust to that. But not holding my breath.[/quote]

I saw the same thing too. If he's the least bit late on his throws the recievers have to be really open or the ball is getting touched by a db. He does throw a nice touch pass & floats the ball nicely, but against an aggressive D he's gonna have to be quicker since he doesn't have arm strength to overcome delays.

to the coaches credit, they kept in ample protection to give him time & I expect to see that from here out.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=freddyg12;391523]I saw the same thing too. If he's the least bit late on his throws the recievers have to be really open or the ball is getting touched by a db. He does throw a nice touch pass & floats the ball nicely, but against an aggressive D he's gonna have to be quicker since he doesn't have arm strength to overcome delays.

[B]to the coaches credit, they kept in ample protection to give him time & I expect to see that from here out.[/B][/quote]

Of course that becomes a major problem if Cooley can't get out in pass routes and their DBs can cover our WRs. Antoine Winfield and Terence Newman are certainly the two that should concern us.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=mheisig;391519]Actually I don't think it's that unusual for a backup to come in and finish the rest of the game with a good performance. Maybe not the standard, but I seem to recall it happening enough that it doesn't seem weird any more.

I think I commented about this in the game thread on Thursday, but it seems almost standard that a backup will come in when the start goes out with an injury, the backup will play a great game, but when he comes back next week he gets torn apart. I think it has something to do with the defense preparing for the starter, and the backup is just someone they don't have a lot of film on, haven't practiced and haven't gameplanned for.

This is all purely conjecture as I have no stats with which to back it up. Just something I've seemed to notice.[/quote]

[URL="http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2007/12/09/great_relief_for_redskins/"]Backup QB Collins gave Redskins great relief performance - The Boston Globe[/URL]

"Flat-out, what he did is not an easy thing to do, and I can't say enough about that," said St. Pierre, who comes to town today as the Steelers' No. 3 quarterback. "When you're a backup quarterback, you just don't get the reps during the week, so it's up to you to be mentally sharp in the meetings and take it all in visually throughout the week.

"To come in and play great, high-quality football - at a position that in and of itself is extremely hard to play - that is just so difficult to do."

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;391529][URL="http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2007/12/09/great_relief_for_redskins/"]Backup QB Collins gave Redskins great relief performance - The Boston Globe[/URL]

"Flat-out, what he did is not an easy thing to do, and I can't say enough about that," said St. Pierre, who comes to town today as the Steelers' No. 3 quarterback. "When you're a backup quarterback, you just don't get the reps during the week, so it's up to you to be mentally sharp in the meetings and take it all in visually throughout the week.

"To come in and play great, high-quality football - at a position that in and of itself is extremely hard to play - that is just so difficult to do."[/QUOTE]

Good article. Maybe my brain is still reeling from all the Mark Bulger/Tom Brady/Ben Roethlisberger/Trent Green stories, who knows.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=rickmmrr;391465]If Collins lights it up you stick with Collins. JC is still thinking too much instead of it being second nature. Having to think about the play slows you down just enough to mess it up. In the Bears game notice how quick Collins made decisions. I'm sure JC will get that in time.[/quote]

Totally!
JC IS OUR FUTURE..............but he definately pressing to hard, rather than letting it happen. As is evident, he is making horrific mistakes at the worst possible times.
JC has MUCH on his shoulders. Maybe to much right now. He may be very relieved to get out of that for the moment. He may also have an oppurtunity to learn by watching.
AND........a little bench time may help (without the ego issues as he was injured). It worked for Theisman. You never know

Gotta' go.............got a meeting with the Easter Bunny

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

The Bears decided to blitz which plays right into Collins strengths. When a team blitzes there are opportunites for a QB who knows the scheme and where he can go with the football quickly. I think the Giants will play coverage, assume they can get pressure with their front four, and force Collins to make big throws in a stadium that usually has a 20 mph wind this time of year. It will be a much greater challenge. At some point you have to be able to run the ball against a team like the Giants and I'm not sure we can

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I said "not confident at all." The man is a career backup. I just don't see him, stepping into the light and taking us to the playoffs. I'd love to see it, but I won't believe it until I do...

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

The only way Collins can be successful is, if the O-line gives him time to get rid of the ball. If the opposing D pressures him it could be bad, sacks and INT's are the possibility. From what I've seen is he's slow, I guess will see. Another concern is our DB's are beat up and opposing offenses will be bombing away at us. The good things are that we got a 10 day rest and it's a late game on Sunday.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I don't know if Collins could throw a football through a pane of glass. He does seem comfortable knowing [i]where[/i] to throw it though.

If I'm NY, I'm watching old Chiefs tape. This could be less about matchups and more about scheme.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

[quote=GMScud;391384]SO, what if Collins continues to play amazingly, we win out, make the playoffs, and then Jason is healthy to play the first playoff game? What then?[/quote]
I say go with Campbell..If he can play and has any mobility...he should start...

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I like the question but let's just try to win a game against the G-men then we can talk a little more. With that being said IF TC wins out i don't think you can put JC in for the playoffs. If we win out it will be b/c of TC's play, so play him.

I do think there is a reason he is a back up and we have NO running game so let's hope they win Sunday.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

he's been good in preseason already and had the exact same look during the bears game. Everything looks easy with him. I just hope he'll be that efficient when we really need him and his experience.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I am very pleased that Todd Collins had a very good outing after Jason Campbell's injury. I'm on the fence. I'm not overly confident he can repeat, but I want him to succeed. His success should have nothing to do with Jason Campbell being the starter. Collins may be efficient but Campbell is physically more capable and will eventually become more efficient thus becoming much more valuable. If Collins plays lights out these last three games, he may have to be the playoff quarterback.

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

We'll see--the noodle arm has me worried, but he looks comfortable, no doubt. And he's got very nice touch on the ball.

As for JC coming back this year, I don't see the point. Why risk your future, if your backup has taken you to the playoffs? Unless he heals amazingly fast, he's not going to be 100% in the best case scenario.

On opening the playbook for JC, I'd like to have seen them do more, but it's understandable, to be sure. No doubt, Gibbs has serious input there, and they watch tape and try to make it easiest for JC to succeed. And Gibbs so very much hates TOs. (Of course, JC has turned it over anyway, but you see the reasoning.)

Liked Vermeil's comments--hope he's right!

Re: Collins & Saunders
 

I don't think Vermeil has ever said a bad word about anybody. So... being slightly effusive in his praise of Collins doesn't do all that much for me. Still, I hope you guys are right.