Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

By looking at estimated wins, and pythagorean wins courtesy of FootballOutsiders.com

Estimated Wins provides a figure that attempts to reevaluate each teams' season in terms of wins, but eliminate factors that the team cannot control.

Pythagorean wins simply looks at the points scored and points against, and determines how many games should have been won if the scores had been spread out over the entire season.

2004: Washington wins 6 games, with 6.8 estimated wins, and 7.1 pythagorean wins

2005: Washington wins 10 games, with 10.4 estimated wins, and 9.9 pythagorean wins

2006: Washington wins 5 games, with 6.8 estimated wins, and 6.1 pythagorean wins

2007: Washington wins 9 games, with 8.3 estimated wins, and 8.7 pythagorean wins

Overall 2nd Gibbs stint: 30 regular season wins, 32.3 estimated wins, and 31.8 pythagorean wins.

If not for luck, Joe Gibbs would have turned two of those 34 regular season losses into wins, effectively giving him a legitimate .500 record in these 4 years.

I don't think that's very bad at all.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Hey Tripp I don't think numbers really mean very much in figuring out Gibbs 2.0. IMO.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=wilsowilso;404972]Hey Tripp I don't think numbers really mean very much in figuring out Gibbs 2.0. IMO.[/quote]I agree, but for a different reason that perhaps you would think. I believe that the wins and estimated wins can only show how good this team has done as a whole in this era.

A coach should not be measured by how many games his team wins. A coach can't go out and play the games, nor does he have control over anything that will make a long term difference in the win or loss column. A coach must build relationships with the men he teaches, and must work not only to improve them as players...any coach can do that, but as men. Men who have to deal with the media and with incessant fans. That's not easy.

However, some people are hell bent on judging coaches by wins, and if they are, I would ask them to look at these numbers, not just the win-loss record. These numbers represent the true quality of the Gibbs coached teams in the last 4 years.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

I think there's a little too much faith in numbers on this one. If you are results-oriented, it's the wins that count - not the "shoulda coulda".

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Well in honesty if this was not Gibbs most if not all of the fans would have called for him to be fired after last year. I feel Gibbs did get some what of a by and did a great job of pulling this team together this past December. We as fans know that he brought more to the table than wins and losses but in the NFL coaches get paid to win games and in that asspect he did not fair that well.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
coach koʊtʃ - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kohch] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a large, horse-drawn, four-wheeled carriage, usually enclosed.
2. a public motorbus.
3. Railroads. DAY COACH.

4. Also called air coach. a class of airline travel providing less luxurious accommodations than first class at a lower fare.
[B]5. a person who TRAINS an athlete or a team of athletes: a football coach. [/B]6. a private tutor who prepares a student for an examination.
7. a person who instructs an actor or singer.
8. Baseball. a playing or nonplaying member of the team at bat who is stationed in the box outside first or third base to signal instructions to and advise base runners and batters.
9. Nautical. an after cabin in a sailing ship, located beneath the poop deck, for use esp. by the commander of the ship.
10. a type of inexpensive automobile with a boxlike, usually two-door, body manufactured in the 1920s.
11. MOBILE HOME.

–verb (used with object)
[B]12. to give instruction or advice to in the capacity of a coach; instruct[/B]: She has coached the present tennis champion.
–verb (used without object)
13. to act as a coach.
14. to go by or in a coach.
–adverb
15. by coach or in coach-class accommodations: We flew coach from Denver to New York.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Hey, I think that there is only one way to look at it, Joe took us to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years, period. Furthermore, All the years he was gone we went once.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=GTripp0012;404968]By looking at estimated wins, and pythagorean wins courtesy of FootballOutsiders.com

Estimated Wins provides a figure that attempts to reevaluate each teams' season in terms of wins, but eliminate factors that the team cannot control.

Pythagorean wins simply looks at the points scored and points against, and determines how many games should have been won if the scores had been spread out over the entire season.

2004: Washington wins 6 games, with 6.8 estimated wins, and 7.1 pythagorean wins

2005: Washington wins 10 games, with 10.4 estimated wins, and 9.9 pythagorean wins

2006: Washington wins 5 games, with 6.8 estimated wins, and 6.1 pythagorean wins

2007: Washington wins 9 games, with 8.3 estimated wins, and 8.7 pythagorean wins

Overall 2nd Gibbs stint: 30 regular season wins, 32.3 estimated wins, and 31.8 pythagorean wins.

If not for luck, Joe Gibbs would have turned two of those 34 regular season losses into wins, effectively giving him a legitimate .500 record in these 4 years.

I don't think that's very bad at all.[/quote]

I don't think two additional pythagorean wins amounts to anything statistically significant. The numbers basically say the same thing as we saw in real life, he had one crappy season, then a decent one, then a crappy season, then a decent one.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=GTripp0012;404968]By looking at estimated wins, and pythagorean wins courtesy of FootballOutsiders.com

Estimated Wins provides a figure that attempts to reevaluate each teams' season in terms of wins, but eliminate factors that the team cannot control.

Pythagorean wins simply looks at the points scored and points against, and determines how many games should have been won if the scores had been spread out over the entire season.

2004: Washington wins 6 games, with 6.8 estimated wins, and 7.1 pythagorean wins

2005: Washington wins 10 games, with 10.4 estimated wins, and 9.9 pythagorean wins

2006: Washington wins 5 games, with 6.8 estimated wins, and 6.1 pythagorean wins

2007: Washington wins 9 games, with 8.3 estimated wins, and 8.7 pythagorean wins

Overall 2nd Gibbs stint: 30 regular season wins, 32.3 estimated wins, and 31.8 pythagorean wins.

If not for luck, Joe Gibbs would have turned two of those 34 regular season losses into wins, effectively giving him a legitimate .500 record in these 4 years.

I don't think that's very bad at all.[/quote]

Funny, I can think of THE 2 games that Gibbs really got screwed in:

2004;
1) the first Dallas game - Walt Harris gets a bogus PI call on Glenn on a 3rd & 10 at the wash. 45 to give Dallas 1st & goal at the 1. We lose 21-18.

2) Green Bay - Portis catches the go-ahead td only to have it called back for a bogus illegal motion call on Thrash.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;405256]Hey, I think that there is only one way to look at it, Joe took us to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years, period. Furthermore, All the years he was gone we went once.[/quote]

That's what I've been saying ever since the news broke. Clearly looks like an overall success to me. There was more to cheer about these last few years than there was in the whole time he was gone.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Frankly, we deserved a 6-win season in 2004 - we just weren't that good.

In 2005, however, I think we overachieved. That was probably more like an 8-win season.

In 2006, we underachieved - we probably should have won at least 3 more games, IIRC.

This year, I think our record reflected where we are as a team, although it was a fairly inconsistent season as a whole (hopefully the Skins of the last 4 games are the "real" Skins).

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

In short...Gibbs left the Skins better than he got the Skins. Point blank! Mission accomplished.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=2BIG2BSKINNY;405288]In short...Gibbs left the Skins better than he got the Skins. Point blank! [U]Mission accomplished.[/U][/quote]

You mean like this?
[IMG]http://www.yougotstyle.org/archives/images/mission-accomplished.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

The best way to look at Joe Gibbs second time around is what he has done for th organizations, owner and fans. Did I think when Joe was hired again that I would be celebrating another Superbowl for the Skins? Of course I did, He is one of the greatest coaches to ever work in the NFL. But as it has been said he did take us to the playoffs two years out of four. He has shown Danny Boy that we do not need to pay old stars big money to come in and win now. We need patients to build a consistent winner and I think Danny will now move forward in that fashion. Get the right guys in that can play and not just big names at the end of their career. This ship has been corrected and is heading in the right direction finally and that is a direct reflection of what Joe did for us. If we did not have so many injuries this year, and losing the best player on our team, I think we are still playing right now. I want to thank Joe for everything he has meant to the Redskins, he will always be our leader and the coach of the Washington Redskins. I just hope he gets his dues next year when we really make a push in the playoffs, unlike Bill Parcells not getting too much credit for what he has done for the Cowgirls.

Also he made the Cowboys-Redskins rivalry come back to life, it was so one sided for so many years.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;405256]Hey, I think that there is only one way to look at it, Joe took us to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years, period. Furthermore, All the years he was gone we went once.[/quote]
Your right all the other years we went once. So your comparing Gibbs to those other coaches like Spur. Norv, etc... not too much of a compliment if you ask me. Heck I could pick out other coachs to compare Spur too and he would look good.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;405299]Your right all the other years we went once. So your comparing Gibbs to those other coaches like Spur. Norv, etc... not too much of a compliment if you ask me. Heck I could pick out other coachs to compare Spur too and he would look good.[/QUOTE]

Who else are we to compare Gibbs to that has coached the Redskins since his first departure?

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

i guess all i can say is joe,s legacy remains the same and he has helped this organization understand you need to put some things together with time and less money not more.
joe gibbs was and is the best at pushing the not so talented player to the upmost potential and get the most out of them and i started to see this the last 4 games of the season...now it,s up to synder to take what he has learned hopefully these past 4 years and continue on with the success...time will tell but the gibbs second go round has made us better and now it,s a matter of keeping it together and adding to it....

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[QUOTE=T.O.Killa;405256]Hey, I think that there is only one way to look at it, Joe took us to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years, period. Furthermore, All the years he was gone we went once.[/QUOTE]

Great point. Taking it another step, how many combined playoff appearances/wins were made by the other head coaches in the league during that four years. Other than Belichick, Dungy and a few others, they can't hold a candle to Gibbs.

GMAT

____________________
Winning isn't enough if there's more to win.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

I'm not a big numbers guy, but I do find the following somewhat interesting regarding the team's record:

2004-2007 30-34 (1-2 playoffs)

2000-2003 27-37 (no playoffs appearances)

1996-1999 33-30-1 (1-1 playoffs)

Is the team better off as a result of JG's return? From a won-loss perspective I would have to say no. The team won 3 more games in 4 years under Gibbs than they did during the Spurrier/Marty/Turner-Robiskie tenure. Do we consider that record all that much better? From a playoff perspective, yes the team is better off. 2 appearances in 4 years with a playoff win is heading in the right direction, but we as knowledgeable football fans, and passionate Redskin fans should not be satisfied with simply making it to the playoffs. Ownership and the coaching staff and players should not be satisfied with that either. That is setting the bar too low.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=GTripp0012;404968]By looking at estimated wins, and pythagorean wins courtesy of FootballOutsiders.com

Estimated Wins provides a figure that attempts to reevaluate each teams' season in terms of wins, but eliminate factors that the team cannot control.

Pythagorean wins simply looks at the points scored and points against, and determines how many games should have been won if the scores had been spread out over the entire season.

2004: Washington wins 6 games, with 6.8 estimated wins, and 7.1 pythagorean wins

2005: Washington wins 10 games, with 10.4 estimated wins, and 9.9 pythagorean wins

2006: Washington wins 5 games, with 6.8 estimated wins, and 6.1 pythagorean wins

2007: Washington wins 9 games, with 8.3 estimated wins, and 8.7 pythagorean wins

Overall 2nd Gibbs stint: 30 regular season wins, 32.3 estimated wins, and 31.8 pythagorean wins.

If not for luck, Joe Gibbs would have turned two of those 34 regular season losses into wins, effectively giving him a legitimate .500 record in these 4 years.

I don't think that's very bad at all.[/quote]

Yeah I have a response... Uh, what?

[IMG]http://humormeblog.beloblog.com/archives/geico.jpg[/IMG]

Just kiddin' ya, Tripp.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

if we can keep everything besides gibbs in place, i think his stint was good.

if it gets blow'd up or re-arranged for a new coach, it was a waste of time :/.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Think it was good. But does anyone else feel like Gibbs quit on us?

I read an article that Monday while visiting family in NC he made a surprise visit to his NASCAR HQ Office. He stopped by at 1 pm to hang out and basically let everyone know he's back to run the team.

I don't know man, just thought after everything they had been through together that there was no way he quits like that. Bet behind closed doors there are some hurt and angry players and coaches.

He owed us one more year. Just my view.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Nice read:

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=luksa_frank&id=3191584]ESPN - Gibbs survived demanding Cooke, proved his mettle under fire - NFL[/url]

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[QUOTE=QBall;406121]Think it was good. But does anyone else feel like Gibbs quit on us?

I read an article that Monday while visiting family in NC he made a surprise visit to his NASCAR HQ Office. He stopped by at 1 pm to hang out and basically let everyone know he's back to run the team.

I don't know man, just thought after everything they had been through together that there was no way he quits like that. Bet behind closed doors there are some hurt and angry players and coaches.

He owed us one more year. Just my view.[/QUOTE]

I think that Gibbs has done enough for the franchise, the city, and the fans that he can do whatever the damn hell he wants.

He had always said that NASCAR is his life, and when he was ready to step down from the NFL (again) he was going back to NASCAR. Plus with a new driver (Kyle Busch) and JGR switching to Toyota this is going to be a very important year for his racing team. And he'll be based in North Carolina where he can be with his grandson constantly, which is great for both of them (not to mention his wife, and the rest of the family). Finally, it'll be a significantly lighter load on his day because he's not going to be up all night breaking down game film and trying to plan for the next opponent.

So, no I don't think he "quit" on the team at all.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=SmootSmack;406164]I think that Gibbs has done enough for the franchise, the city, and the fans that he can do whatever the damn hell he wants.

He had always said that NASCAR is his life, and when he was ready to step down from the NFL (again) he was going back to NASCAR. Plus with a new driver (Kyle Busch) and JGR switching to Toyota this is going to be a very important year for his racing team. And he'll be based in North Carolina where he can be with his grandson constantly, which is great for both of them (not to mention his wife, and the rest of the family). Finally, it'll be a significantly lighter load on his day because he's not going to be up all night breaking down game film and trying to plan for the next opponent.

So, no I don't think he "quit" on the team at all.[/quote]

I agree. Just my 2 cents...

He gave us all he had for 4 seasons. I appreciate the fact he was honest with himself and decided to step down rather than come back and not have his heart 110% into it.

I really don't think people understand what an insane grind the NFL is. I'm sure if we spent a week at Redskins Park with Gibbs he would simply wear us out.

When Gibbs came back his plan was to not dive head first into the job again like his first stint here, but before you know it he was sleeping in his office again and grinding away until the wee hours of the morning.

As he's said, the NASCAR team is a big part of his family. I don't see where his involvement in it again should be any sort of signal that he quit on the Redskins.

In fact I'll call it like I see it. Anyone who really thinks that Gibbs may have "quit" on the Redskins, doesn't fully understand what Gibbs is all about.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=QBall;406121]Think it was good. But does anyone else feel like Gibbs quit on us?

I read an article that Monday while visiting family in NC he made a surprise visit to his NASCAR HQ Office. He stopped by at 1 pm to hang out and basically let everyone know he's back to run the team.

I don't know man, just thought after everything they had been through together that there was no way he quits like that. Bet behind closed doors there are some hurt and angry players and coaches.

He owed us one more year. Just my view.[/quote]

No I don't think he owed us anything. He drafted a very promising young QB, brought in countless quality assistant coaches capable of carrying the load now that he's gone, instilled patience (hopefully lasting patience) in our owner who was previously a maniac, and otherwise assembled a talented young core of players. Because of him, our future has possibilities. It's up to Dan Snyder and whoever he hires as coach to achieve the things Gibbs made possible.

The whole point of bringing Gibbs here was to make the team better. We hoped that would involve a SB. But there's no arguing that we're in better position today than we were at the end of the '03 season. So to Gibbs I say thank you, I'll never forget you, and enjoy your golden years because you deserve great ones.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[quote=2BIG2BSKINNY;405288]In short...Gibbs left the Skins better than he got the Skins. Point blank! Mission accomplished.[/quote]I agree that he left the team better than he received it, but to me, mission accomplished would have been a deep playoff/Super Bowl run. If you told me 4 years ago that Gibbs would bring us 1 playoff victory in 4 years, I would have been VERY disappointed.

Looking at the big picture, if Campbell proves to be a franchise QB, we can expect many years of contending well in the NFC with deep runs in the postseason. I believe that Campbell will be Gibbs's greatest contribution of his second go around.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Joe Gibbs online. Past, present & future. Check it out.

[url=http://www.joegibbsonline.com/onthefly.php?item=210]Joe Gibbs Online > COACH RESIGNS FROM REDSKINS: Week of January 10th, 2008[/url]

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;405948]if we can keep everything besides gibbs in place, i think his stint was good.

if it gets blow'd up or re-arranged for a new coach, it was a waste of time :/.[/QUOTE]

I'm wearing out my mouse and my browser checking out this site to see if there is any new news.

Gibbs may have taught Danny some patience,but I sure as hell don't have much.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

my 2 cents are with smootsmack and matty on all counts nascar racing is where his family is and thats the most important to him now..like i said before joe gibbs has given this fan a ton of memories to last a lifetime not to mention that special day in charlotte in 1993 when i met him personally. priceless.so no joe gibbs didn,t quit that title goes to ole ball coach,he,s the one who quit on the skins.thanks a million joe and continued success with your nascar operation and i,ll be there supoorting ya there too..

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

Gibbs righted the ship sunk by Snyder and the Ol'Ball Coach!! 4 years later the skins are in great shape!! If we can get over being 23 million oveer the Cap.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan_nn;406217]Joe Gibbs online. Past, present & future. Check it out.

[url=http://www.joegibbsonline.com/onthefly.php?item=210]Joe Gibbs Online > COACH RESIGNS FROM REDSKINS: Week of January 10th, 2008[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks for this. It's still kind of crazy to hear him say he thought the team was going to go all the way. I can't imagine him ever saying anything like that if he was still coaching.

Did you notice how he sort of looked away and said "something's not right about that" when talking about the crowd noise in Seattle? Not to bring up another old topic, but seemed like he was echoing Sellers' sentiments about sound being piped in.

Re: Some other ways of looking at Gibbs' Second Stint
 

[QUOTE=wilsowilso;404972]Hey Tripp I don't think numbers really mean very much in figuring out Gibbs 2.0. IMO.[/QUOTE]

i did'nt even read the other responses..this response here shuts this thread down