Al Saunders on the way out?
 

So according to JLC's article in Sunday's [I]Post[/I], several GM's contacted about their opinion on the Skins' future seem to think Al Saunders is not long for the Burgundy & Gold. He also goes on to say that Bugel, Breaux, Simmons, and Burns will most likely stick around. So if Saunders leaves, who becomes OC? Do we look outside to organization or stay within? Should Saunders go? It's no secret he and Gregg aren't the best of friends....

From JLC's article:
[I]
With the team at a crossroads after Gibbs's sudden retirement, there is much to go over. Several general managers contacted said they believed the job of [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Al+Saunders?tid=informline"]Al Saunders[/URL], the Redskins' associate head coach whose offense has under-performed in two years in Washington, could be in jeopardy, and some turnover on the offensive coaching staff may be inevitable....

...The source also believed that the four offensive coaches who were with Gibbs from his first stint in Washington -- [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Joe+Bugel?tid=informline"]Joe Bugel[/URL], Don Breaux, Rennie Simmons and Jack Burns -- would remain a part of the staff, and they have expressed their desire to continue coaching.
[/I]

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

i'd like to see al saunders stick around at least i more year.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

I wouldn't put too much stock into what outsiders think the Skins are going to do. If I were a betting man, I would say both Williams and Saunders are back.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

Saunders better be back. Would suck to go back to the high school offense that Breaux/Burns/Bugel employed in '04 and most of '05. Or for that matter, it would suck equally to watch the offense struggle to learn a totally new offensive system.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[quote=12thMan;406611]I wouldn't put too much stock into what outsiders think the Skins are going to do. If I were a betting man, I would say both Williams and Saunders are back.[/quote]

Apparently the Danny is very disappointed with the offense since Al came in. It's hard to judge Al too hard because of the flux in the QB position and injuries. Not to mention the conflicting philosophies with Gibbs (which still makes me wonder why Al was hired to begin with). I think if he sticks around he MUST have autonomy as far as all play calling is concerned. I personally don't want to see him go. If the Danny is all about continuity and JC being the franchise QB, then stick with Al.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

i didn't know greg and al didn't get along

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

I think the last 4 games of the season probably saved Saunders' job. That is, if Gibbs had retired without that run, I think Saunders would definitely be gone, whether he wanted to or not. However, he showed what this offense is [U]capable[/U] of doing, and I bet that caught Snyder's attention.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[quote=wolfeskins;406615]i didn't know greg and al didn't get along[/quote]

I don't think it's that they don't get along, it's more like they basically don't have a relationship. Al coaches strictly offense, and does his work on Sunday from the booth. Gregg is all defense, and always on the sideline. Apparently they aren't close at all.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

I'll just combine here what I've said in a couple of other threads

Al Saunders was at the Wizards game (big win over the Celtics!) tonight, for what it's worth.

Anyhow, yeah it will be really interesting to see what happens on the offensive side of the ball. Either way I don't see Cameron here. He'll probably be Marty's OC if Schott takes the Ravens' HC job

I hope Saunders stays. And I think he will. We certainly seemed to be making progress under his offensive game plan. I wish there was someone on the offensive coaching staff who stood out as being able to step up to a more prominent role. On the defensive side if Williams were to leave or move up to HC, you know someone like Jerry Gray is capable of stepping into the DC (or Asst. Head Coach-Defense) role. But if the same happened with Saunders, is there someone on the staff that could step up? I don't know that there is? Byner? Hixon?

I thought maybe the Redskins were in Arizona interviewing Jim Fassel (since it supposedly wasn't Russ Grimm). But supposedly it was a current assistant coach. So maybe it was Maurice Carthon. He's a legit candidate, though far from the best (and it fulfills the Rooney Rule). Or maybe it was some assistant from another team who happens to live in Arizona.

I think Saunders stays, but I wouldn't be surprised if several other assistants leave. I think they're going to pare down that staff. Let people go and not necessarily replace them.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;406620]I'll just combine here what I've said in a couple of other threads

Al Saunders was at the Wizards game (big win over the Celtics!) tonight, for what it's worth.

Anyhow, yeah it will be really interesting to see what happens on the offensive side of the ball. Either way I don't see Cameron here. He'll probably be Marty's OC if Schott takes the Ravens' HC job

I hope Saunders stays. And I think he will. We certainly seemed to be making progress under his offensive game plan. I wish there was someone on the offensive coaching staff who stood out as being able to step up to a more prominent role. On the defensive side if Williams were to leave or move up to HC, you know someone like Jerry Gray is capable of stepping into the DC (or Asst. Head Coach-Defense) role. But if the same happened with Saunders, is there someone on the staff that could step up? I don't know that there is? Byner? Hixon?

I thought maybe the Redskins were in Arizona interviewing Jim Fassel (since it supposedly wasn't Russ Grimm). But supposedly it was a current assistant coach. So maybe it was Maurice Carthon. He's a legit candidate, though far from the best (and it fulfills the Rooney Rule). Or maybe it was some assistant from another team who happens to live in Arizona.

I think Saunders stays, but I wouldn't be surprised if several other assistants leave. I think they're going to pare down that staff. Let people go and not necessarily replace them.[/quote]

As far as the Wiz go... HELL YEAH!! Lowest point total of the season for Boston! Woohooo!

As far as the rest.. I hope to god we weren't interviewing Jim Fassel. If Billick says "trust me, I know quarterbacks," and Fassel was coaching underneath him, then just shoot me if he comes to town.

I think Al should stay too. No one on the current offensive staff is capable of taking over as a coordinator IMO, and the only other guy I'd feel comfortable with from outside is Jim Caldwell (Indy). But he won't leave the Colts for another coordinator position.

Al will probably feel a little more at ease without Gibbs around. If there can be an "I'll do my thing, you do yours" understanding between Al and Gregg, I'm all for it. That is, of course, if Gregg is named head coach...

Isn't flux fun?? :doh:

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

If Saunders goes, I would like to see them go with Bill Lazor. Most of the successful OCs in the league right now are younger guys. Hell Peyton Manning is Indy's de-facto Coordinator so maybe we should just give the job to Todd Collins.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;406641]If Saunders goes, I would like to see them go with Bill Lazor. Most of the successful OCs in the league right now are younger guys. Hell Peyton Manning is Indy's de-facto Coordinator so maybe we should just give the job to Todd Collins.[/QUOTE]

Lazor would be an interesting choice, and not a bad one at that.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

i was one of the biggest Saunders bashers. but over the last quarter of the season, his offense started clicking. now, to keep continuity, he has almost got to stay if the skins are to be successful in 2008

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

If the Redskins are to be successfull, with Williams, they need Saunders. If they get rid of Saunders, we are 6-10 next year, and Williams is on the way out and Cohwer is in[I]. [/I]It seemed to me, that after we lost to Buffalo, Joe Gibbs gave complete control to Saunders and the offense took off. I think this article is another case of JLC making totally inacurate statements. The more I think about last season, the more I think the JLC is wrong about Saunders. Last year, our defense was the problem and our offense was getting better. This year our offense started coming together, especialy after Collins took over. Furthemore, as the season progressed, Joe gave him more and more control. Throwing on 4-1, come on, Joe had complete trust in him. I would be stunned if they kept Williams and let Saunders go.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

Al Saunders has never had control of the offense. It would be unfair of Snyder the football genius to blame Saunders for the redskins woes on offense. Gibbs controlled the offense play calling or at least had a heavy influence on what was called. Saunders never really ran 'his' offense. I hope this report is not true.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

Be honest here. The Defense was the problem also. Are defense is predicatated on 3 and outs. If a team finds a way to move the ball we are screwed. The players either looked un-conditioned or maybe it's we hired smaller players for speed and they are getting no push and exhausted on long drives. I know we were 8th in the league but look at second half adjustments. Other teams made them GW did not. He lined up his men and said beat me. When we were getting beat he rarely made adjustments or atleast it looked like we did nothing. Fall into a zone and get beat everytime.

I like Saunders. His system works and is proven. Why does it not work here? Is it we have the wrong players for the system? Gibbs always liked big blocking linemen, does Saunders system require smaller faster linemen? Is it the blocking style? Gibbs always lined up his men and played mostly man to man blocking. Al's looks more like zone blocking similar to what Denver uses. If we stay in Al's offense we need a coulple of big WR. He needs total control. GW needs to get lineman who can get pressure up the middle.

I'm not sure who the best coach for the job is but I look at both sides of the ball and see a rusty old classic car with a dent in the door and needs 4 new tires. Yes, I know the dent can be pulled and the rust blasted off and the tires changed which leaves us with a pricless car worth alot but do we have the ability to do it?

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

How was our defense the problem dumbass

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

The only choices would be Cameron or Lazor and possibly Musgrave. Cameron was here with Norv before he worked for Marty and it's a Coryell type offense, forget Fassell he's a West Coast Offense type of guy. Musgrave also is a West Coast kind of guy but was here for a couple of years so maybe he learned something?

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

I wouldnt mind promoting lazor to OC.. Granted he is un proven as being OC but he and JC have a great relationship and has been around for awhile and knows the players

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

Simply put...our defense dominates first half games. how many times did teams come back in the fourth quarter? thats called A D J U S T M E N T S. GW failed to do that a lot in the 4th quarter. Prevent sucks. Prevent, prevents you from winning.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

He was playing prevent mainly when sean taylor was playing because he knew that most teams wouldnt have the balls to throw it deep on them.. and when they did it would usually turn out bad for that team. Now, when he passed away greg williams completely changed his defense, becoming more pressure based.. forcing quarterbacks to make quick throws and make mistakes, which worked out very well for us down the stretch. I agree that it is partly our defenses fault for allowing teams tocome back. But, the same could be said for the offense, if the offense keeps going 3 and out then the defense is going to be on the field most of the game, which is what was happening to us losing those half time leads.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

You cant expect the defense to stop them everytime, without the offense putting the games away there is always a chance for the other team to come back.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

I did not say it was only the defenses fault. Yes we were a 3 and out team also on offense. we need big WR's I said that. Someone to throw a ball up to in the end zone. We need to do something about our blocking. I said that also. I simply said GW needs to do something about the second half let downs and get better push up the middle. I also like Carter a lot but he was man handled in Seattle. Maybe it's just a couple of spots we need to fix but it's not all Saunders who is the problem is all I was saying.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

I won't be surprised if Saunders gets dumped especially if GW takes over. Let's face it, other than the 4 game streak his offense was disappointing to say the least.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

I'll agree with that. I would imagine GW would want a top 10 offense. Al did not produce that at all for us. I would ask again why this is? Al's offense has produced with other teams why was it a flop with us? and will one more year bring it full circle? Do we give him one more year? or do we say adios and go with another OC.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

If Saunders goes, and Schwartz comes aboard as head coach (or even as Williams' top dog), you think they might make a run at Texas Tech coach Mike Leach? A buddy of mine who's a Titans fan tipped me off to this:

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/magazine/04coach.html[/url]

[QUOTE]At least one N.F.L. head coach had taken a special interest in the Texas Tech offense and had been ordering its game tapes on Monday mornings. At least one N.F.L. defensive coordinator, Jim Schwartz of the Tennessee Titans, had stumbled upon Texas Tech accidentally and said, Oh, my. The surprise runner-up in the search earlier this year for a new San Francisco 49ers head coach, Schwartz had scrambled to answer a question: if he got the 49ers job, whom should he hire? He was just in his mid-30's, and his football career stopped at Georgetown (where he graduated with honors in economics), so he really hadn't thought about this before.

The 49ers had not bothered to interview college coaches for the head-coaching job in part because its front-office analysis found that most of the college coaches hired in the past 20 years to run N.F.L. teams had failed. But in Schwartz's view, college coaches tended to fail in the N.F.L. mainly because the pros hired the famous coaches from the old-money schools, on the premise that those who won the most games were the best coaches. But was this smart? Notre Dame might have a good football team, but how much of its success came from the desire of every Catholic in the country to play for Notre Dame?

Looking for fresh coaching talent, Schwartz analyzed the offensive and defensive statistics of what he called the "midlevel schools" in search of any that had enjoyed success out of proportion to their stature. On offense, Texas Tech's numbers leapt out as positively freakish: a midlevel school, playing against the toughest football schools in the country, with the nation's highest scoring offense.

But when Schwartz studied videotape of the Texas Tech offense, what he saw unsettled him. The offensive linemen positioned themselves between three and six feet apart - on extreme occasions, the five linemen stretched a good 15 yards across the field. At times it was difficult to tell the linemen from the receivers. Strictly speaking, they were not a line at all, just a row of dots. "The offensive line splits - you look at them, and you're just shocked," Schwartz said. "It scares people to see splits that are that wide."

The big gaps between the linemen made the quarterback seem more vulnerable - some defenders could seemingly run right between the blockers - but he wasn't. Stretching out the offensive line stretched out the defensive line too, forcing the most ferocious pass rushers several yards farther from the quarterback. It also opened up wide passing lanes through which even a short quarterback could see the whole field clearly. Leach spread out his receivers and backs too. The look was more flag than tackle football: a truly fantastic number of players racing around trying to catch passes on every play, and a quarterback surprisingly able to keep an eye on all of them[/QUOTE]

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

That's interesting...you have to admire the homework he put into that research. But as you know, these "gimmick" type offenses just usually don't work in the NFL with the speed and agility of the players at that level. Although...it does seem that the run and shoot, is almost making a little bit of a comeback now....just set up a little differently now.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

In Al's defense ...

His plays worked when the receivers weren't dropping sure money catches all over the place, Jason wasn't throwing it right to the other teams defenders, and Portis wasn't trying to run into the biggest pile of people he could find on the field...

I think he deserves at least one more year to try and make it right...he can call the perfect plays but the players still have to execute them properly.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[QUOTE=squrrelco3;406704]In Al's defense ...

His plays worked when the receivers weren't dropping sure money catches all over the place, Jason wasn't throwing it right to the other teams defenders, and Portis wasn't trying to run into the biggest pile of people he could find on the field...

I think he deserves at least one more year to try and make it right...he can call the perfect plays but the players still have to execute them properly.[/QUOTE]

Nice post. You are right, Al Saunders should not be the fall guy. I guess Snyder wants to put his touch on the offense like when he hired Steve Spurrier.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

If I were Al, I would get ahead coaching job and take Todd and Rocky with me whom can read 700 pages and want to learn more

[QUOTE=squrrelco3;406704]In Al's defense ...

His plays worked when the receivers weren't dropping sure money catches all over the place, Jason wasn't throwing it right to the other teams defenders, and Portis wasn't trying to run into the biggest pile of people he could find on the field...

I think he deserves at least one more year to try and make it right...he can call the perfect plays but the players still have to execute them properly.[/QUOTE]

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

Saunders would be happier if JC played like TC.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;406692]I won't be surprised if Saunders gets dumped especially if GW takes over. Let's face it, other than the 4 game streak his offense was disappointing to say the least.[/quote]That's not Saunders though. That's us not having a running game, or the ability to block for one.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;406918]That's not Saunders though. That's us not having a running game, or the ability to block for one.[/quote]

Regardless, he didn't do what he paid him to do. We paid him to put up a top flight offense and we got an inconsistent, mediocre one. It happened on his watch.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;407068]Regardless, he didn't do what he paid him to do. We paid him to put up a top flight offense and we got an inconsistent, mediocre one. It happened on his watch.[/quote]

but did gibbs have some cuffs on saunders hands, not letting him call the offense he was brought here to call ?

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;407068]Regardless, he didn't do what he paid him to do. We paid him to put up a top flight offense and we got an inconsistent, mediocre one. It happened on his watch.[/quote]Okay, so?

Look, if the money was really a problem, we shouldn't have given him a lot of it to bring him here. If we were expecting some magical ability just because we paid him a lot, I don't know what to tell you.

I think he's done just fine, and that if you were measuring anyone in his position against the value of their contract, there is no way anyone could ever live up to that much money. It's just not possible.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;407068]Regardless, he didn't do what he paid him to do. We paid him to put up a top flight offense and we got an inconsistent, mediocre one. It happened on his watch.[/QUOTE]

No, it happened on Gibbs watch. He (Gibbs) made it very clear that, ultimately, this was Gibbs offense. While I haven't been impressed with Saunders, I don't think it fair to blame him for ALL the offensive woes. Gibbs may have "relinquished" the playcalling but, IMHO, this was a modified Gibbs offense.

We constantly harp on the naysayers for blaming Gibbs and crediting others. Sorry, in converse, Gibbs get the credit but also gets the blame.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;407130]Okay, so?

Look, if the money was really a problem, we shouldn't have given him a lot of it to bring him here. If we were expecting some magical ability just because we paid him a lot, I don't know what to tell you.

I think he's done just fine, and that if you were measuring anyone in his position against the value of their contract, there is no way anyone could ever live up to that much money. It's just not possible.[/quote]

Not saying the money was the problem, just saying he didn't produce. Hence, he didn't do what he paid him to do. Were you happy with the results of his offense?

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

I think the skins need to give al 1 more year.There were times during games when I felt like I could really tell when Gibbs would take over play calling.I cant give any specific examples unfortunatly, its just a gut feeling. It felt like we would run two different offenses during some games.I believe Saunders should get a chance to run the offense without a lot of influence from the head coach, whoever that may be.If at the end of next year nothing changes then it is time to part ways.

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

More often than not, we heard about Gibbs handcuffing Saunders' offense. Which I always found rather reedycholuz (that's for you Brud) to say when the offense faltered it was Gibbs, but when it performed it was "look what the Al Saunders can do."

I think what happened was that their philosophies maybe weren't as closely matched as they had thought. Yet, as we saw for example in the Bears game, Gibbs' max protect, motion schemes can coexist with Saunders' aerial attack.

But bottom line, with Gibbs out of the picture now (feel weird saying it like that), there should be no confusion that it's Saunders' offense. So I think we need to keep him one more year and let him prove his full worth here.

And I think to further emphasize it's his show we need to pare down the coaching staff. You've got Saunders as Assoc. Head Coach-Offense. Bugel as Assistant Head Coach-Offense (at least you know he's an offensive line svengali), Don Breaux as Offensive Coordinator (what's his role exactly), and Jack Burns as Offensive Assistant (and his role?)

Re: Al Saunders on the way out?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;407168]More often than not, we heard about Gibbs handcuffing Saunders' offense. Which I always found rather reedycholuz (that's for you Brud) to say when the offense faltered it was Gibbs, but when it performed it was "look what the Al Saunders can do."

I think what happened was that their philosophies maybe weren't as closely matched as they had thought. Yet, as we saw for example in the Bears game, Gibbs' max protect, motion schemes can coexist with Saunders' aerial attack.

But bottom line, with Gibbs out of the picture now (feel weird saying it like that), there should be no confusion that it's Saunders' offense. So I think we need to keep him one more year and let him prove his full worth here.

And I think to further emphasize it's his show we need to pare down the coaching staff. You've got Saunders as Assoc. Head Coach-Offense. Bugel as Assistant Head Coach-Offense (at least you know he's an offensive line svengali), Don Breaux as Offensive Coordinator (what's his role exactly), and Jack Burns as Offensive Assistant (and his role?)[/QUOTE]
I think for the first time all season, I agree 100% with you.. It'd be [B][I]ridicules[/I][/B] I think to get rid of Saunders without seeing what he can do with TRULY full reign to call the games for a season.