The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

GTripp and I started an interesting conversation in the Democratic Debate thread, and I think it deserves a thread of it's own per SSG's request.

When we were discussing the aspects of a presidential candidate, I mentioned that I would like to have someone who, in the broad scope of things, look out for everybody and especially the lower income citizens of America. Anyhoo, we had kind of gotten off topic and onto the price of gasoline. Oh, I know why! Because I mentioned I wanted the gas prices to be lowered. 'Tripp said (and I do understand what he's saying from the purely long term financial view of it) that the gas prices should actually be increased. I believe he said to a dollar amount of $6 a gallon and that it should be a fixed amount there.

Certainly, I can agree and disagree with that figure. 20 years from now, $6 a gallon should seem like $2 a gallon. If it's $6 a gallon for the rest of our lives, yeah, eventually everybody could live with that. But, I think when you start looking at the finer details of this, does this become a question of survival of the fittest? Or, survival of the wealthiest? My politics might be considered confusing to most, because I've always voted and felt more conservative, and mostly Republican. However, there is this little Democrat in me (can't believe I'm saying that too) that keeps whispering in my ear "what about those who are middle and lower class citizens? Do we basically kill them off?"

I've had arguments with staunch Libertarians on another forum board over the same or similar issues, and the attitude they had just seem like an elitist attitude toward the topics. The more they argued, the more colder they got toward me. I asked them about the moral ramifications of such a view point, then they went off subject and argued over the proper definition of what is "moral". The picture they painted for me is that America would be a better place with basically a handful of the richest people in the land. Everything had a price and everything was privately owned. If you couldn't afford it, you basically died, unless the church helped you out. Then they argued over taxing the church the same as any other "business" (and I won't go down that road of topic.) At the end of the day, when there was nothing else to argue, the free market would fix everything!

Anyways, with all of that said, my point is, should we kill off those who have lower to middle class salaries that are trying to "make it" in this country? We have to remember, not all areas in VA or any other state are paying college grads $40k - $70k straight out of college. Some areas (like mine) figure a decent salary is in the $30k range. However, when it comes to living expenses such as gasoline, the slightest increase sets a person way back. We have to remember, it's not just the rising price of gas we put in our vehicles, but it's the rising cost of fuel that people use to heat their homes. In my opinion, while the purely marketing view of it makes sense to increase the price of gas and then cap the cost, from a current ethical stand point, it further alienates the more civilized ares (larger cities) from the rural areas (small towns, farm towns, etc...)

I guess I'm a little more sensitive to it, because I've grown up and currently live in a rural town. Even college grads like myself aren't making enough to live comfortably. Well, I might be, but that is just because I'm single and living in a small cottage home currently. If I had a wife and kids, we would be struggling, unless she was a doctor or lawyer. I realize the other solution is to move, but that still doesn't solve the problems that rural America faces.

Anyways, sorry I've rambled on this topic. As you can tell, I'm probably a confused Republican who's having an identity crisis. Either that, or I'm just wanting an extreme make over of the USA.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

First thing is you have to determine what exactly is "middle class". No one can really agree on what "middle class" really is. But enough with that, I am pretty sure that I fall in the "middle class" range. And I am betting that there are a lot more "middle class" workers than there are "wealthy" people in this country. I may be wrong here but my point is that our government gets a lot of tax dollars from the "middle class". The "middle class" is the best form of capital that this great country has. Its the "middle class" that does the jobs that "wealthy" in this country makes there billions off of.

To get back to your post, the part about the democrat caring about the "middle class".
[quote=skinsguy]However, there is this little Democrat in me (can't believe I'm saying that too) that keeps whispering in my ear "what about those who are middle and lower class citizens?[/quote]

Well, about that, I hate to burst your bubble but Mrs. Hillary Clinton did make the comment that "If America could get rid of the "Middle class", America would rule the world." And she is supposed to be the democratic leader!?!? So far in this election race I have heard more support for the middle class out of the Republican party than I have out of the Democratic party.

If what you are saying about "Wiping out the Middle class" would be a good thing than why is our government trying to come up with an economy stimulus package for the "middle class" to help jump start the economy? I am not saying that the idea is a good idea but still they are targeting the "middle class" for this...

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588;416346]
Well, about that, I hate to burst your bubble but Mrs. Hillary Clinton did make the comment that "If America could get rid of the "Middle class", America would rule the world." And she is supposed to be the democratic leader!?!? So far in this election race I have heard more support for the middle class out of the Republican party than I have out of the Democratic party.

If what you are saying about "Wiping out the Middle class" would be a good thing than why is our government trying to come up with an economy stimulus package for the "middle class" to help jump start the economy? I am not saying that the idea is a good idea but still they are targeting the "middle class" for this...[/QUOTE]

I think you and I agree, actually. I am against the thoughts of "wiping out the middle class". That is something that these Libertarians on another site seemed to support. I don't support that line of thinking, however. Like you said, it is the "middle class" who keeps this country afloat. Secondly, I'm in no support of Hilary Clinton at all. If I were to vote for a democrat, I'd vote for Obama.

I guess what I'm trying to get a clearer picture of is the overall thoughts of those on this board about limited gov't verses socialism. Is the overall thinking in line with wanting every American to have a chance to work to succeed, or is it survival of the fittest? By the way, I consider myself middle class as well.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

The idea with a fixed price floor is that it steals a luxury from those who have other forms of transportation than by personal vehicle. The grand idea is to make sure there is enough gasoline to fuel cars for those who have no other options but to drive to their jobs.

This isn't about a free market vs. a socialist market, because the free market is better in 99% of cases. This is about mandating a change in usage habits, and doing it by forcing consumers to realign their values.

The free market would be totally capable of taking care of this issue on it's own, and that would be: the middle class can no longer afford to drive on a daily basis, people near the poverty line probably can't own or lease cars, and the combination of the two leads to less spending in the market, and rampant unemployment.

Then of course, we would innovate and figure things out as we always do, but I would prefer to pay double for gas now and be forced to alter my lifestyle a bit as opposed to being unable to participate in business affairs for some time.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

A price floor is better than a massive gas tax because the gas companies would maintain the profits here, they would be selling less, but selling at a higher profit margin, and the overall effect on their profits would be null.

I really don't want the money from any of these changes taken out of the hands of the consumers, so a gas tax would be counter productive, IMO.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

Why couldn't gas be federally regulated? I'd love for someone to explain to me how Exxon is only passing the rising crude prices along to the customers when they are setting new records for profitability every year. Something doesn't smell right.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

The only problem with that, GTripp, is that not all areas provide alternate forms of transportation. Would you be assuming that areas where people are close enough to work where they could walk or could take the bus should not have vehicles? Wouldn't this be in direct conflict with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;416355]Why couldn't gas be federally regulated? I'd love for someone to explain to me how Exxon is only passing the rising crude prices along to the customers when they are setting new records for profitability every year. Something doesn't smell right.[/QUOTE]

That's just it. These oil companies are bringing in billions of dollars of profit a year. they have more than enough profit to invest back into the company to create new fuel that Americans rely on. There is no reason to raise the prices on oil.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

you know what they say bleedb, if it looks like a rat, and smells like a rat... i think the first thing that should be done by anyone entering the white house is eliminate any and all tax breaks that the big oil companies enjoy. i cant, for the life of me, figure out how they pulled that off. it started with good old Ronald Regan in the white house. times were pretty good, and everyone was getting fat. why it still goes on is insane

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

Exxon/Mobil makes roughly $.07 per gallon. The tax on a gallon of gas is in the low $.50's. That tax could be increased and we could eventually push out our dependency on gasoline for cars. That would be gradual, like the steep tobacco tax. Take the increase profit and offer grants to companies doing research in energy technologies.

Furthermore, cut back on subsidizing corn. The New Deal did great work when we were coping with the Dust Bowl, and out of control food prices. Now, we can create a new legitimate market for corn based fuel. I don't think totally cutting out the subsidy would be advisable, as the government would lose some control over pricing, which is important because we all know that cows eat corn based food. Thus milk, and diary products would be effected as well. But the subsidies were designed to help the American Farmer. Not the massive American farming conglomerates that now buy up farmland, getting passive cashflow from the Government, while the value of the land increases.

Im getting off topic. Steeper increases in the tax of gasoline is good for America, and it's good for the world. The first people to feel that burden will be the lower income brackets, obviously. But a smart evolution of our culture demands it. If nothing else, it'll encourage a grassroots interest in creating more affordabel alternate fuel vehicles. Hybrids arent cheap enough yet, but we're getting there.

And i am a Republican.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=Monksdown;416365]

Im getting off topic. Steeper increases in the tax of gasoline is good for America, and it's good for the world. The first people to feel that burden will be the lower income brackets, obviously. But a smart evolution of our culture demands it. If nothing else, it'll encourage a grassroots interest in creating more affordabel alternate fuel vehicles. Hybrids arent cheap enough yet, but we're getting there.

And i am a Republican.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't that tax money be used to help these lower income families afford to purchase these hybrid cars? Then, maybe they wouldn't feel so much of the burden?

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=skinsguy;416356]The only problem with that, GTripp, is that not all areas provide alternate forms of transportation. Would you be assuming that areas where people are close enough to work where they could walk or could take the bus should not have vehicles? Wouldn't this be in direct conflict with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?[/quote]Well, the people who are dependant on gas to get to their jobs would still pay double for gas. They would have to. The trade off is they can be somewhat assured that it will be there at that fixed price down the road, because the others who have options not to drive are not using more fuel than they need.

With demand down universally, the value of gas would stop the exponential increase it is headed at.

A lot of people would feel like they are getting screwed. In the mean time though, we're all screwing ourselves.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=skinsguy;416368]Couldn't that tax money be used to help these lower income families afford to purchase these hybrid cars? Then, maybe they wouldn't feel so much of the burden?[/quote]

What you say makes sense. But what is the likelihood of the government subsidizing independent transportation for the economically challenged? I don't think the chances are very good.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;416373]Well, the people who are dependant on gas to get to their jobs would still pay double for gas. They would have to. The trade off is they can be somewhat assured that it will be there at that fixed price down the road, because the others who have options not to drive are not using more fuel than they need.

With demand down universally, the value of gas would stop the exponential increase it is headed at.

A lot of people would feel like they are getting screwed. In the mean time though, we're all screwing ourselves.[/QUOTE]

If we sky rocket the price on something we are dependent on, it will cause a worse recession than the one we're heading toward. That is definitely NOT the answer. The law of supply and demand doesn't work in this case. What works is competition. The American people deserve to have choice of fuel for their vehicles. Competition will drive down price, dependency, and demand. It will also help to keep money in the American people's pockets, allowing them to contribute to the economy of the country. Which is good for everybody.

What your'e suggesting would only henge on the hope that the rate of living expense compensation would increase at a rate that would allow for such an increase. And believe you me, the fuel companies would never cap their prices at the end user PoP(point of purchase.) The moment the average income would "catch up" to the fuel costs, the gas companies would come up with some other excuse to raise the prices again.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=Monksdown;416374]What you say makes sense. But what is the likelihood of the government subsidizing independent transportation for the economically challenged? I don't think the chances are very good.[/QUOTE]

Not likely at all, you're correct!

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=skinsguy;416376]If we sky rocket the price on something we are dependent on, it will cause a worse recession than the one we're heading toward. That is definitely NOT the answer. The law of supply and demand doesn't work in this case. What works is competition. The American people deserve to have choice of fuel for their vehicles. Competition will drive down price, dependency, and demand. It will also help to keep money in the American people's pockets, allowing them to contribute to the economy of the country. Which is good for everybody.

What your'e suggesting would only henge on the hope that the rate of living expense compensation would increase at a rate that would allow for such an increase. And believe you me, the fuel companies would never cap their prices at the end user PoP(point of purchase.) The moment the average income would "catch up" to the fuel costs, the gas companies would come up with some other excuse to raise the prices again.[/quote]The main idea is to cut usage. Competition would go by the wayside for a while, as every company would sell gasoline at the price floor mandated by the government.

As long as nationwide usage stays down, the gas will be there for those who do rely on it.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

Fixing gas prices at $6 per gallon would be a disaster. If the economy is in a recession now, it would be in a tailspin with gas prices at $6 per gallon. Our economy runs on gas and if you double the price overnight, you'll wreak havoc on companies, people's lives, etc.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

We don't have wide spread options now because the government failed to subsidize alternative fuel sources the way it has gasoline. Ethanol is the way we seem to be leaning as an alternative source, but the environmental impacts are questionable. They want to open a plant on the Eastern Shore, but that area produces less than half the corn that is necessary to run the plant.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

One thing to remember about gas, it's not just for your commuter cars. Does that go towards heating prices, which millions of people can't afford? What about all the companies that rely on tractor trailers and airplanes to do business. It would in turn make the prices of EVERYTHING skyrocket.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=Monksdown;416365]Exxon/Mobil makes roughly $.07 per gallon. [/QUOTE]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I don't believe that for a second. Who puts out that information, Exxon and Mobil right? I just don't buy it. I don't see how the same companies that are selling a product that is continually going up in price, but supposedly not screwing us, are the same companies that are just so well run that they post record profits year in and year out. I wasn't born yesterday.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

Last year, CNN stated that Exxon makes $1,000 profit every minute

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;416351]The idea with a fixed price floor is that it steals a luxury from those who have other forms of transportation than by personal vehicle. The grand idea is to make sure there is enough gasoline to fuel cars for those who have no other options but to drive to their jobs.

This isn't about a free market vs. a socialist market, because the free market is better in 99% of cases. This is about mandating a change in usage habits, and doing it by forcing consumers to realign their values.

The free market would be totally capable of taking care of this issue on it's own, and that would be: the middle class can no longer afford to drive on a daily basis, people near the poverty line probably can't own or lease cars, and the combination of the two leads to less spending in the market, and rampant unemployment.

Then of course, we would innovate and figure things out as we always do, but I would prefer to pay double for gas now and be forced to alter my lifestyle a bit as opposed to being unable to participate in business affairs for some time.[/quote]

This is quite possibly the worst idea I've ever heard of from an economic standpoint.

While we're busy "innovating" and "figuring things out", the following would happen:

- Consumer spending would drop significantly as the 100% increase in gas price cuts directly into discretionary spending.

- With lower discretionary spending, cyclical companies will undergo large layoffs and unemployment will rise above 7%.

- An inefficient market will be created, one in which gas will be available for $2 - $3 per gallon in Canada. A black market will be created in an attempt to buy gas cheaper in Canada and smuggle it across the border. Then you immediately have a national security crisis.

- Recognizing that drivers will begin to move away from the roads and towards public transportation and recognizing that demand for their services is increasing, public transportation systems will raise prices.

- Worker productivity will be drastically affected as many low-income workers will find it increasingly difficult to get to work.

- The drop in consumer discretionary spending will lead to lower profitability for our businesses, reducing the amount of taxes the government collects, thereby nullifying whatever they collect by enacting a floor on gas prices.

- Other countries will gain a competitive advantage against us as their citizens will only be expected to pay $3 per gallon for their gas, while we pay $6. This creates a scenario ripe for a bigger federal deficit, further weakening the dollar.

You're possibly talking consequences of epic proportions. Easily the worst idea I've heard in a long time.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;416492]I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I don't believe that for a second. Who puts out that information, Exxon and Mobil right? I just don't buy it. I don't see how the same companies that are selling a product that is continually going up in price, but supposedly not screwing us, are the same companies that are just so well run that they post record profits year in and year out. I wasn't born yesterday.[/quote]

No, that number is correct. It's validated by the SEC. And ever since the Arthur Anderson debacle, the SEC is all over everybody.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=Daseal;416485]One thing to remember about gas, it's not just for your commuter cars. Does that go towards heating prices, which millions of people can't afford? What about all the companies that rely on tractor trailers and airplanes to do business. It would in turn make the prices of EVERYTHING skyrocket.[/quote]

Exactly. Thereby resulting in massive unemployment and a reduction in tax revenue to the American government.

If you want more tax revenue, the best way to raise it is to have more people working and more companies earning. It is NOT to raise taxes.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

Since 1995, gas prices have tripled (~$1 to ~3). Americans have kept up with their consumption. Doubling gas will have the same effect. At best you'll see a decrease in SUV purchases and an increase in economy cars. We like having the freedom to drive and will modify our spending on other luxuries until you take away our driving rights.

Hmm, maybe I'm still missing the point of this thread? Are we trying to force American dependency off of gas for other alternative forms of fuel/transportation? I think the part about killing off the middle class confuses me.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;416587]Since 1995, gas prices have tripled (~$1 to ~3). Americans have kept up with their consumption. Doubling gas will have the same effect. At best you'll see a decrease in SUV purchases and an increase in economy cars. We like having the freedom to drive and will modify our spending on other luxuries until you take away our driving rights.

Hmm, maybe I'm still missing the point of this thread? Are we trying to force American dependency off of gas for other alternative forms of fuel/transportation? I think the part about killing off the middle class confuses me.[/QUOTE]

You are right about the price jumping from $1 to $3 from 1995 until now. So over 13 years the price of gas went up an average of $0.15 per year. However with that increase in gas each year, people's wages also went up. The idea in this thread is saying that our government should double the price of gas "overnight" from $3 to $6, not do it over 13 years. A big difference, with gas only going up $0.15 a year most people can cope with that.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

Yeah, I guess the initial sticker shock will be extremely hard to cope with but I still think most people will adjust fairly quickly. I don't know the particular methods, but I stand by my belief that Americans will find a way to keep the pedal to the metal.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;416585]No, that number is correct. It's validated by the SEC. And ever since the Arthur Anderson debacle, the SEC is all over everybody.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so they're making a "fixed income" of .07 per gallon. Where are all these profits coming from then? The gov has to decide who to side with, big oil or the public. If they're making that much money, and it is hurting the average US Citizen, then something has to be done.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;416605]Yeah, I guess the initial sticker shock will be extremely hard to cope with but I still think most people will adjust fairly quickly. I don't know the particular methods, but I stand by my belief that Americans will find a way to keep the pedal to the metal.[/quote]

I agree, but I think that eventually America will say enough is enough and stop driving. Basically, people will be using their paychecks just to have a nice day out rather than going out a lot during the weeks and spending out at restaurants, stores and bars.

The stores also feel the pinch by their distributors charging more to bring the products to their store, so they have to increase prices to pay for the gas increase. I agree with the people talking about recession with a gas price increase. I have to say that, while I do my normal driving, the price on gas definitely has an effect on my weekends plans in general. I stay in a lot more now than I ever did thanks to the price on gas.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=Schneed10;416585]No, that number is correct. It's validated by the SEC. And ever since the Arthur Anderson debacle, the SEC is all over everybody.[/quote]
i don't care if Jesus Christ said that number is right. i say no way. every quarter all the major oil companies are setting records for profits. how? the only increases they face are in wages for their workers. that's miniscule in the grand scheme of things. the government needs to grasp some sort of control of the price. those company ceo's will just have to be satisfied with a 10 million dollar bonus

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;416634]i don't care if Jesus Christ said that number is right. i say no way. every quarter all the major oil companies are setting records for profits. how? the only increases they face are in wages for their workers. that's miniscule in the grand scheme of things. the government needs to grasp some sort of control of the price. those company ceo's will just have to be satisfied with a 10 million dollar bonus[/QUOTE]

7 cents a gallon is a nice profit when you consider how many trillions of gallons of gas are consumed every year.

How should the government grasp control of the price? Should they force companies to lower their prices and pay the oil companies the difference? Either way, taxpayers are going to "eat it."

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[quote=dmek25;416634]i don't care if Jesus Christ said that number is right. i say no way. every quarter all the major oil companies are setting records for profits. how? the only increases they face are in wages for their workers. that's miniscule in the grand scheme of things. the government needs to grasp some sort of control of the price. those company ceo's will just have to be satisfied with a 10 million dollar bonus[/quote]

That's pretty ignorant, but whatever.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;416692]That's pretty ignorant, but whatever.[/QUOTE]

I think that's it's unreasonable to use pure speculation and a hunch to discount the validity of numbers vetted by the SEC. But, Schneed, could you use different words? I just want to make sure no fights break out.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

why cant the price be capped? a gallon of milk is regulated by the govt.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;416734]why cant the price be capped? a gallon of milk is regulated by the govt.[/QUOTE]

The milk industry doesn't have the lobbying efforts of the gas industry.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

all i know is that creative book keeping has been around since people started keeping records. and politicians looking for a handout has been around for, well, forever. schneed, im not sure why you take it personal when someone disagrees with you. we can agree to disagree. because i know what you say isn't changing my thought process. and im sure my viewpoints aren't changing yours. its known as healthy discussion. the name calling isn't very productive, and it tends to change someones opinion of your personality. which is kind of funny

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;416584]This is quite possibly the worst idea I've ever heard of from an economic standpoint.

While we're busy "innovating" and "figuring things out", the following would happen:

- Consumer spending would drop significantly as the 100% increase in gas price cuts directly into discretionary spending.

- With lower discretionary spending, cyclical companies will undergo large layoffs and unemployment will rise above 7%.

- An inefficient market will be created, one in which gas will be available for $2 - $3 per gallon in Canada. A black market will be created in an attempt to buy gas cheaper in Canada and smuggle it across the border. Then you immediately have a national security crisis.

- Recognizing that drivers will begin to move away from the roads and towards public transportation and recognizing that demand for their services is increasing, public transportation systems will raise prices.

- Worker productivity will be drastically affected as many low-income workers will find it increasingly difficult to get to work.

- The drop in consumer discretionary spending will lead to lower profitability for our businesses, reducing the amount of taxes the government collects, thereby nullifying whatever they collect by enacting a floor on gas prices.

- Other countries will gain a competitive advantage against us as their citizens will only be expected to pay $3 per gallon for their gas, while we pay $6. This creates a scenario ripe for a bigger federal deficit, further weakening the dollar.

You're possibly talking consequences of epic proportions. Easily the worst idea I've heard in a long time.[/QUOTE]

Agreed 100%!!!!

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;416751]all i know is that creative book keeping has been around since people started keeping records. and politicians looking for a handout has been around for, well, forever. schneed, im not sure why you take it personal when someone disagrees with you. we can agree to disagree. because i know what you say isn't changing my thought process. and im sure my viewpoints aren't changing yours. its known as healthy discussion. the name calling isn't very productive, and it tends to change someones opinion of your personality. which is kind of funny[/QUOTE]

Schneed doesn't mean to attack people personally, he just doesn't pull any punches with regard to how he feels about someone's opinion.

As for cooking the books, let me just say the SEC can bring the hammer when companies get too cute. In the post-Sarbanes Oxley (i.e., post-Enron/WorldCom) world, it's become a lot more difficult to overstate/understate earnings. As a securities lawyer, I must say that I have a lot of confidence in the SEC. The SEC and securities laws are not perfect, but they are pretty damn good. Moreover, dmek, companies have a vested interest in OVERstating their profits.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;416734]why cant the price be capped? a gallon of milk is regulated by the govt.[/QUOTE]

This is a fantastic example of why the government shouldn't cap gas prices. The capping of milk prices has created an completely imbalanced milk market that essentially killed milk farming in the US as it existed for decades. Because of the costs involved with producing milk it is near impossible for small and even medium sized farms to operate at a profit. Large incoporated farms milking thousands of cows a day drive the market now and put small farmers out of work. These farmes now have no job and probably lose their homes since they can't pay off their farms where ther homes are. Financial disaster. So what does the gov't do? THEY GIVE SUBSIDIES TO THEM SO THEY CAN OPERATE AT A LOSS. This therefore eliminates their motivation to work more efficiently and keeps the entire market in a state of flux with people on the daily verge of losing everything.

Now this is not anything like what would happen with oil but it shows how introducing false outside pressures on a market can easily destroy it and make things worse. Almost always the consequences of such actions are difficult and even impossible to predict.

Two sayings come to mind:

"No good deed goes unpunished"
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

It is time to start thinking about SMART ways to affect markets. Promoting healthy markets is the best thing for consumers and for companies.

Re: The Free Market, price of gas, class warfare or socialism?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;416751]all i know is that creative book keeping has been around since people started keeping records. and politicians looking for a handout has been around for, well, forever. schneed, im not sure why you take it personal when someone disagrees with you. we can agree to disagree. because i know what you say isn't changing my thought process. and im sure my viewpoints aren't changing yours. its known as healthy discussion. the name calling isn't very productive, and it tends to change someones opinion of your personality. which is kind of funny[/QUOTE]

I agree about name calling but when he presents a logical and factual argument and your counter argument is basically "Everyone is lying, it's all a conspiracy" it makes you sound dumb(which you are not) and emotionally blinded"

And I am sorry but ignorant simply means to not know what you are talking about. If you present an argument that could reasonably lead someone to think you don't know what you are talking about then you need to be prepared to be called out on it. It isn't like he called you a dumb shit or something personal like that.

I'm just sayin'...