Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[url=http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7749384/Pats-deny-report-that-worker-filmed-Rams-before-XXXVI]FOX Sports on MSN - NFL - Pats deny report that worker filmed Rams before XXXVI[/url]

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

I would love to see Belicheat called before congress . . . so he could perjure himself. The fact that writers gave him coach of the year makes me sick. I don't care if you've been undefeated for 10 years straight, he f(@#* cheated . . . And you really believe the Jets game was the first time he tried videotaping another team?

We're all smarter than that . . .

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

I've watched my opponents game film since I was 10 years old.... I'm having a hard time understanding what type of filming is not allowed and if that's the case - why is other filming permitted??

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

I don't think its relevant what they actually videotaped, or how they used it. It's a matter of breaking a rule...one that isn't nitpicky or subjective. It's pretty freaking blatant and well-defined. Don't use any form of unsanctioned surveillance against your opponent to gain intelligence about the team's strategies or discussions. I dont think if it could be proven that the patriots did film the rams walk-through, that they could justify it as an accident or claim that it was harmless.

Therefore, it shouldn't be up for debate if what they did was actually that bad, but rather the debate should be how to substantiate the claim and if it is in fact true, what should the repercussions be. I think its pretty clear that the pats organization (with Belichick at the helm) may have been doing this quite often and they just happened to get caught earlier this year against the jets. Merryl Hodge suggested that they should be stripped of that first superbowl crown in this case and I tend to agree with this. (Mainly b/c i think they would have had an unjust competitive advantage. They were 14 point underdogs and the game was decided by a last minute FG that was allowed to happen by stopping the most potent offense in NFL history at the time).

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

This thing is getting silly. So they taped them running a slant. Then a stop and go. Then a running play. You do not think they already have all the game film of them running these exact plays but in game conditions. NFL teams do not reinvent the wheel each time they take the field. Before a game you know every play each team runs and you even prepare for the plays they do not run.
The Woodward and Bernstein's need to take a deep breath. This does not raise to the level of taking away a SB crown away. I think this has more to do with the hate for the Patriots by certain fans and press. They can not stand seeing another team do well.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

i say whether or not the cheating had anything to do with the out come of the game, its still breaking the rules and should be disciplined harshly. As I heard earlier someone on espn comparing it to, if you go to rob a bank but dont get away with it you still attempted to rob the bank. If you go to a casino and cheat and lose and get caught you still are gonna get punished, as if you would cheat and win big... ITS STILL CHEATING... no matter what the final outcome was. if they wanted to tape they should have followed the rules as to how it can be done.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

Strip them of the Superbowl!! JK! Who cares, everybody scouts and videotapes their opponents in some way or another. I went to DeMatha and knew Coach Morgan Wootten very well and he used to sell his offensive play book. He said it doesn't matter if they know our plays it is how you run your plays. Be precise, efficient, and do your job. I still hate the Pats because they are so smug and run the score up on people.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

Still though.... FOLLOW THE RULES ON DOING IT....

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

You really have to wonder about the timing of this latest accusation. I don't doubt that it possibly happened, Mort was on the radio this morning saying that he already knew about it but he didn't have any concrete leads and that's why the story didn't break earlier in the year.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

The timing is quite interesting. I doubt it will get to the Pats though.
It will be interesting to see this unfolds after tonight's game. If they did cheat then they should be punished, just as any team should.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=Defensewins;416598]This thing is getting silly. So they taped them running a slant. Then a stop and go. Then a running play. You do not think they already have all the game film of them running these exact plays but in game conditions. NFL teams do not reinvent the wheel each time they take the field. Before a game you know every play each team runs and you even prepare for the plays they do not run.
The Woodward and Bernstein's need to take a deep breath. This does not raise to the level of taking away a SB crown away. I think this has more to do with the hate for the Patriots by certain fans and press. They can not stand seeing another team do well.[/quote]

I think your wrong. If the tape was of no value, then why bother to go the trouble of acquiring it. It's like someone breaks into a house, steals a load of stuff and then says, "But this stuff isn't even worth that much!" Knowing what plays a team runs in a walkthrough and the order they run them in would be a huge advantage for someone calling a defense.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=Cap'nChaos47;416583]I've watched my opponents game film since I was 10 years old.... I'm having a hard time understanding what type of filming is not allowed and if that's the case - why is other filming permitted??[/quote]


You don't see the difference between filming a game where there are 75,000 people in attendance and another 15 million watching on TV on the one hand and filming a closed practice on the other?

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=Mattyk72;416641]You really have to wonder about the timing of this latest accusation. I don't doubt that it possibly happened, Mort was on the radio this morning saying that he already knew about it but he didn't have any concrete leads and that's why the story didn't break earlier in the year.[/quote]

I love what Greg Aiello had to say. He basically said, "Well, this tape wasn't in the batch we confiscated and the Patriots say they didn't do it, so case closed." This cheating culture that was (is?) rampant in Boston is inconveniencing everyone's cash grab, so they all look the other way. Just like the baseball owners and the media pretended they had never heard of steroids during Sosa and McGuire's HR shootout.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

If someone ever filmed George Allen's teams (being how paranoid he was) especially the Cowboys. He would of personally kicked Bellichick's ass.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;416598]This thing is getting silly. So they taped them running a slant. Then a stop and go. Then a running play. You do not think they already have all the game film of them running these exact plays but in game conditions. NFL teams do not reinvent the wheel each time they take the field. Before a game you know every play each team runs and you even prepare for the plays they do not run.
The Woodward and Bernstein's need to take a deep breath. This does not raise to the level of taking away a SB crown away. I think this has more to do with the hate for the Patriots by certain fans and press. They can not stand seeing another team do well.[/QUOTE]

I know you're schtick is to defend Belichick and the Pats, but this kind of espionage (if it took place) definitely deserves condemnation and harsh sanctions. Filming a team's walkthroughs (i.e., the plays they will run the next day) gives a great competitive advantage. As someone else noted, why in the hell would Belichick risk getting hit with severe sanctions if it gave him no advantage? Either you think Belichick is a dumbass and risked a great deal for nothing, or you're not being totally honest with yourself.

Also, the notion that fans can't stand seeing another team doing well is unfounded. I had no problem with the Colts marching towards a perfect season and I wanted them to do it. Why? I have respect for Manning and Dungy. I and so many others have a serious problem with the Pats winning. Why? Maybe that's something you need to think about.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[B]The following is an excerpt from PFT.com:[/B]

IF WALSH HAS VIDEO, BELICHICK DONE FOR A YEAR

ESPN's Sal Paolantonio reports that, if it turns out that former Patriots employee Matt Walsh has in possession video of the Rams' final walk-through practice from Super Bowl XXXVI, New England head coach Bill Belichick will be suspended.

For a year.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;416661][B]The following is an excerpt from PFT.com:[/B]

IF WALSH HAS VIDEO, BELICHICK DONE FOR A YEAR

ESPN's Sal Paolantonio reports that, if it turns out that former Patriots employee Matt Walsh has in possession video of the Rams' final walk-through practice from Super Bowl XXXVI, New England head coach Bill Belichick will be suspended.

For a year.[/quote]

I was just over there checking their coverage as well. God I hope this guy has the tape. I hope he kept it and mailed it to himself registered mail. Please God!

Of course the Patsys have issued an unequivocal denial, so if the tape exists, doesn't Kraft have to send Belichik down the road?

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;416661][B]The following is an excerpt from PFT.com:[/B]

IF WALSH HAS VIDEO, BELICHICK DONE FOR A YEAR

ESPN's Sal Paolantonio reports that, if it turns out that former Patriots employee Matt Walsh has in possession video of the Rams' final walk-through practice from Super Bowl XXXVI, New England head coach Bill Belichick will be suspended.

For a year.[/quote]Merrill Hoge was even stronger last night on ESPN. He said that if the evidence turns up, The Pats should be stripped of their first Super Bowl. At minimum, it would always carry an asterisk.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

I personally think that Belichick should be banned for life if these recent allegations are true. Admittedly, I hate Belichick, so I am a little biased but hear me out.

Belichick already used videotapes to gain an unfair competitive advantage, despite being repeatedly forewarned that using videotapes to steal opponents' signals was against league rules. Belichick was sanctioned only with regard to the 2007 "spygate" incident (e.g., videotaping the Jets signals). Belichick was NOT sanctioned for all espionage activities involving "illegal" us of videotapes. Moreover, Goodell warned Belichick that he would face additional, draconian sanctions if Belichick did not disclose all incidents/evidence relating to the "illegal" use of videotapes.

If these recent allegations are true, Belichick defied the Commissioner. Moreover, Belichick will have used videotaping to gain a competitive advantage in the most important game in the league. In short, the guy cheated and gave a big middle finger to Goodell. If Pete Rose gets a life ban for gambling on games because such gambling MIGHT lead to cheating, why shouldn't Belichick get banned for life for actually cheating and defying the Commissioner's orders?

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=SouperMeister;416668]Merrill Hoge was even stronger last night on ESPN. He said that if the evidence turns up, The Pats should be stripped of their first Super Bowl. At minimum, it would always carry an asterisk.[/QUOTE]

Sal was reporting what will happen to the Pats, not what he'd like to see happen to the Pats.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

Surprise, surprise.

Being stripped of the their first Super Bowl win would be pretty damaging to say the least.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;416676]Surprise, surprise.

Being stripped of the their first Super Bowl win would be pretty damaging to say the least.[/QUOTE]

I bet we will never know the truth and will be left with speculation. Can you imagine what would happen to the NFL if the public learned that the Pats cheated in the Super Bowl? Professional sports hasn't had a scandal like that in decades. The NFL and Pats would be wise to bury this thing fast.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=Cap'nChaos47;416583]I've watched my opponents game film since I was 10 years old.... I'm having a hard time understanding what type of filming is not allowed and if that's the case - why is other filming permitted??[/quote]

I think there is a big difference from Little league, High school and possibly College and the NFL. The rules in Little league and High school are such that the coach's have to send to the next opponant the last game played so they can evaluate film(plays). I'm not sure if Colleges do this but I do not think Pro teams do.

Also, It would be no big deal if they were taping the whole game to see the plays used. Heck teams can tape from the Direct tv sports package if they wanted. Where the problem comes in is when they are taping the had signals and the plays being run from the hand signals. Which is what the issue was with the Jets. That gives the opposing teams somewhat of an advantage in possibly knowing the next play. This is what cost them a first round pick and $500,000.

Now if they did tape a walk through which is supposed to be closed then they need to be hammered. Now that a name is out there it will be interesting to see if the person feels he has to prove his statement or can the Patriots buy him off and not have the tape surface. lol.

I did not belive it when they said the only team they taped was the Jets. I'm would bet they have other tapes on other teams as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if they produced all the tapes they had they would have looked bad and the coach would have been suspended for a while. I could be wrong maybe there was only one team and thats it. I also have problems with the Commish. If the tapes did not have any value to them then send copies to the media and allow them to show the public so we all can say "oh this is all crap." I would have liked to have seen him also give the film to the team that was filmed and allow them to evaluate what was being filmed and if it was pertinant or not. Instead he immediatly destroys the film within what 2 days. I have issues in how all this was handled.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;416651]I think your wrong. If the tape was of no value, then why bother to go the trouble of acquiring it. It's like someone breaks into a house, steals a load of stuff and then says, "But this stuff isn't even worth that much!" Knowing what plays a team runs in a walkthrough and the order they run them in would be a huge advantage for someone calling a defense.[/QUOTE]

The Fox article states, "It was not known whether the cameraman was told by the Patriots to film the practice or what he did with the tape, the Herald said."
So the [B]Herald [/B]that made these allegations with unidentified sources and a lot of rumors goes even further and says 'it is not known what he did with the tape."
When you or any credible source has actual facts then punishment should be considered, until then it is premature.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;416683]The Fox article states, "It was not known whether the cameraman was told by the Patriots to film the practice or what he did with the tape, the Herald said."
So the [B]Herald [/B]that made these allegations with unidentified sources and a lot of rumors goes even further and says 'it is not known what he did with the tape."
When you or any credible source has actual facts then punishment should be considered, until then it is premature.[/QUOTE]

You stood up and defended the Pats and essentially said that, even if true, this is much to do about nothing. So, I'm not sure why we can't speculate about what should happen if the allegations prove true.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=Defensewins;416683]The Fox article states, "It was not known whether the cameraman was told by the Patriots to film the practice or what he did with the tape, the Herald said."
So the [B]Herald [/B]that made these allegations with unidentified sources and a lot of rumors goes even further and says 'it is not known what he did with the tape."
When you or any credible source has actual facts then punishment should be considered, until then it is premature.[/quote]

Before you were saying it was okay for them to look at the tape because it was of little value. Your new position is that they never looked at the tape at all. I would suggest that if the tape was made, then Belichik almost certainly watched it personally, made notes, and adjusted his gameplan accordingly.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

Well lets just for safety sake say the team never told the camera man to film. Lets say he filmed the practice under cover and went to the Patriots and said "Hey I got this film and the Patriots paid him to get the film. Maybe they didn't pay him maybe he is a fan of the Patriots and gave it to them. It's still illegal. The Pat's had a duty to notify the League about the individuals actions and have the individual sent packing from the SB.

I guess the big question will be if there is a film was it given to the Patriots or were they allowed to view it. If someone randomly filmed and held the film for a few yrs but never showed it to anyone and then all of a sudden claims to have given it to the opposing team would be crappy also. Way to many questions floating around Bellichik and the Patriots.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=SBXVII;416689]I guess the big question will be if there is a film was it given to the Patriots or were they allowed to view it. If someone randomly filmed and held the film for a few yrs but never showed it to anyone and then all of a sudden claims to have given it to the opposing team would be crappy also. Way to many questions floating around Bellichik and the Patriots.[/QUOTE]

Good post. That's yet another reason why we will never know the truth. I highly doubt there will be ANY evidence that Belichick directed the employee to tape the walkthroughs, watched the tape, or used the tape to his advantage (assuming it exists). But, even if these rumors are false, to that I say, "The Pats made their bed...."

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;416687]Before you were saying it was okay for them to look at the tape because it was of little value. Your new position is that they never looked at the tape at all. I would suggest that if the tape was made, then Belichik almost certainly watched it personally, made notes, and adjusted his gameplan accordingly.[/QUOTE]

It is not a new position.
They are two totally different subjects:

1) Did they get an advantage by watching practice tape?
2) Did this tape really exist and what was done with it after it was recorded? Can it be proved?

If you need more explanation let me know.
I never said they did or did not watch the tape. I was referring to what can be proved and how this so called revealing article is nothing but scuttlebutt. .

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

Not to get too off topic, but Defensewins, I believe your first post addressed whether it would be a big deal if the Pats did procure, watch and use the tape of the walkthrough. Your second post stated that any speculation about what should happen to the Pats is premature since they haven't been caught.

70Chip's point seemed to be that you can't tell people they shouldn't speculate about what should happen to the Patriots if these latest allegations are true when, in your first post, you did the same thing (and merely came to a different conclusion).

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

Deon Sanders made a good point. It's history lets move on. I've said this about the steroid use inquasition. If they used they used. Alot of players did use heck alot of football players use. They have found out that it is starting at the high school level to be competative. It's a known. Draft new rules against it, draft punishments to be put in place and move on.

If the Senate/Gov. really is trying to get rid of steroids then how about starting with the Mr. Olympia competitions or WWF. You don't get that freakishly big eating wheaties. but lets turn a blind eye to the most obviouse steroid users and attack football and baseball. Have we checked the golfers yet......never know, how about tennis, we won't talk about hocky.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=SBXVII;416699]Deon Sanders made a good point. It's history lets move on. I've said this about the steroid use inquasition. If they used they used. Alot of players did use heck alot of football players use. They have found out that it is starting at the high school level to be competative. It's a known. Draft new rules against it, draft punishments to be put in place and move on.

If the Senate/Gov. really is trying to get rid of steroids then how about starting with the Mr. Olympia competitions or WWF. You don't get that freakishly big eating wheaties. but lets turn a blind eye to the most obviouse steroid users and attack football and baseball. Have we checked the golfers yet......never know, how about tennis, we won't talk about hocky.[/quote]

So you're saying people cheat, get over it?

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=SBXVII;416699]Deon Sanders made a good point. It's history lets move on. I've said this about the steroid use inquasition. If they used they used. Alot of players did use heck alot of football players use. They have found out that it is starting at the high school level to be competative. It's a known. Draft new rules against it, draft punishments to be put in place and move on.

If the Senate/Gov. really is trying to get rid of steroids then how about starting with the Mr. Olympia competitions or WWF. You don't get that freakishly big eating wheaties. but lets turn a blind eye to the most obviouse steroid users and attack football and baseball. Have we checked the golfers yet......never know, how about tennis, we won't talk about hocky.[/QUOTE]

No offense intended SBXVII, but I find that sentiment repulsive. The idea that we should turn a blind eye to ANYTHING that is wrong simply because it is pervasive is crazy. People steal cars all the time and, when judgment time comes in court, the theft occurred in the past. But that doesn't mean we should ignore it.

Unchecked abuses only serve to encourage cheating at the expense of those who do things the right way from day 1.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

Everyone has to ask themselves 1 thing.
"Why did the Patriots make that guy that filmed the tapes sign a confidentiality agreement before dismissing him if they did nothing wrong?"

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;416701]No offense intended SBXVII, but I find that sentiment repulsive. The idea that we should turn a blind eye to ANYTHING that is wrong simply because it is pervasive is crazy. People steal cars all the time and, when judgment time comes in court, the theft occurred in the past. But that doesn't mean we should ignore it.

Unchecked abuses only serve to encourage cheating at the expense of those who do things the right way from day 1.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree.
Those that do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. It's true on many levels...you need to put a stop to all cheating or it will just continue. And sorry to say, Deion will never have my respect. He was a HORRIBLE person until he supposedly found God. For him to say to basically move on, just means to me that we shouldn't. If Barry Bonds said not to investigate steroids in baseball, would you listen? I'm not calling a Deion a cheater, but I would guarentee he would partake (and maybe he did during his career) if the option showed itself.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

I never said turn a blind eye to it. I said the Gov is looking at small potato's and if they were truly concerned they would start where it's obviouse.

Should a team be punished yes. How is the question. Several of you are suggesting taking away the SB rings from them and giving the game to the opponent. This is not the Olympics. All I'm saying is "If" proven then deside on a decent punishment and move on. Let all the teams know that the rule will be enforced and move on. but to try to go back in history and fix the problem is dumb.

Perhaps more monitary punishment and a yr suspension if the coach was a part of this thing. Heck I felt he should have been suspended a yr for the first incident. He should not have been allowed to coach this yr.

This coming from someone who adopted the Patriots as there second team. Do I like them? not this yr. I did not like the whole taping issues from the beggining. I also did not like the fact they ran up the score on the Skins. My last observation is that they are cocky. It's one thing to be humble and win all those games but all I have seen is a cocky Brady. Cocky Seau and several other teamates.

Go Giants.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

[quote=SBXVII;416699]Deon Sanders made a good point. It's history lets move on. I've said this about the steroid use inquasition. If they used they used. Alot of players did use heck alot of football players use. They have found out that it is starting at the high school level to be competative. It's a known. Draft new rules against it, draft punishments to be put in place and move on.

If the Senate/Gov. really is trying to get rid of steroids then how about starting with the Mr. Olympia competitions or [B]WWF. [/B]You don't get that freakishly big eating wheaties. but lets turn a blind eye to the most obviouse steroid users and attack football and baseball. Have we checked the golfers yet......never know, how about tennis, we won't talk about hocky.[/quote]

Being an ex-avid WWF follower, they have a steroid policy in place (Supposedly). They released a list of names of people who tested positive for steroids and they were suspended from action due to breaking policy.

Can't talk about what ya don't really know. :D

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

You all missed my point. I don't like Deon nor ever did he was a waiste of money in my oppinion.

All I was saying is that you can't go back and change whats been done. This is not the Olympics. Thats all that I agreed with Deon about. Should there be a punishment for the cheating. Yes. You just can't go back and change the ending of the game is all I'm saying. Punish them for the future and make it known with all the teams that there will be a concequense and move on.

I'm ticked about the steroid thing because big Gov is looking at ball players who were probubly not tested. Make new rules about testing make sure it covers all drugs and make known the punishments and start testing. Instead the Gov would rather persue players that were never required to be tested and ruin there reputations. If they lied to congress then they need to fry. You can't lie under oath.

but why start an investigation with BB players? I would have started where its more obviouse. Perhaps start buying the muscle magazines and questioning the body builders. Why is congress even involved? hand it over to the DEA and let them start their investigations and charge who needs to be charged for illegal drug use.

Re: Patriots accused of taping Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl
 

Former Patriots' offensive coach, Charlie Weis, overheard congratulating Tampa Bay’s defensive coordinator, Monte Kiffin, allegedly stating: "We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us. I can't believe it."

[url=http://www.secsportsfan.com/belichick-spygate-scandal.html]Belichick Spygate Scandal: The Untold Story[/url]