If Zorn Wins..........
 

in his first season does Gibbs get any of the credit?I still think Gibbs is one of the best coachs ever in the NFL( no secret) but after talking to some Skins fans at work they feel Gibbs was what was wrong I on they other hand feel Gibbs kept you guys alive an didn't get half the credit due him.
Taylor's death and the way it happen could have made any team tank and I think Gibbs was the glue, add in him knowing about his sick grandson and I say it had to be one of his best coaching years.......discuss.

Re: If Zorn Wins..........
 

I for one believe that Gibbs was holding them back. I believe that he was scared to take chances and always playing not to lose. With Zorn I really believe that we will open up a lot more and take advantage of our talent that we have on the team. Zorn, being from the Holmgren tree, will be what we need on this team. Zorn will win!!! Draft Albert if he is available!!

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[QUOTE=Giantone;438668]in his first season does Gibbs get any of the credit?I still think Gibbs is one of the best coachs ever in the NFL( no secret) but after talking to some Skins fans at work they feel Gibbs was what was wrong I on they other hand feel Gibbs kept you guys alive an didn't get half the credit due him.
Taylor's death and the way it happen could have made any team tank and I think Gibbs was the glue, add in him knowing about his sick grandson and I say it had to be one of his best coaching years.......discuss.[/QUOTE]

This is really a two part discussion, in my opinion. I think this team will suffer from the loss of Joe Gibbs as the leader of the football team. I think he did a tremendous job of rallying the team prior too and after Sean's death, and I think he had a uncanty ability to be lead a group of pro atheletes in a way most coaches wish they could, I think thats something Zorn will have to pick up on.....

At the same time, I am excited to (hopefully) see a different approach to playcalling, with hopefully more of a killer instict than we saw at some points during the season last year. I really think our offense will be much better this year under Zorn...its the defense I worry the most about.

Long story short though, Gibbs defintley deserves some credit for assembling this team, should Zorn have a real successful first season as head coach.

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I think Gibbs did a fine job with this team. By the end of his tenure we had a pretty good roster and not enough can be said about his ability to motivate a team. If Zorn wins in his first season I believe Gibbs should be getting part of the credit because Zorn is pretty much inheriting Gibbs' roster, save for a few new draft picks. Having Gibbs had its' ups and downs, there were a few things Gibbs did wrong, and I didn't like some of the things he did but he had his good points too, i.e. he put together a nice roster and I think there was very few people who could have done the job he did after ST died.

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the bottom line is Gibbs=GOD in DC. I am in the military and if he told me to kill I would no questions asked. But I do agree there were times when he was holding back, and trying to play the game that he used to play. We no longer have Riggins, Riggs, etc, and the smash mouth game of yesteryear doesn't exist anymore. However, he was and always will a symbol of professionalism and a true coach, one that is dedicated to his team and tradition.

Now on to Zorn....with no proven track record all we as fans can do is hope. Hope that the team will buy into a new philosophy, a new scheme (at least offensively), a new identity, and mostly a new coach. But if you look at the Holmgren/Walsh coaching tree a lot of really good coaches have come out that mold. I am eager to see more of an open attack. While it may not be the deep down field passes, the game will be more fun to watch from a fan perspective. Plus with a zone blocking scheme, Portis will have more opportunity to show his dominance. With Moss, and ARE they will not be relied upon to make the big catch, just the YAC, which is there style of game anyways.

After lots of thinking and deliberating I am eager to see what happens. Overall I believe that in time, the skins will be back to dominance, as long as we start drafting for the future, and preserve our sense of winning. NO MORE BIG NAMES AT THE FA. Work on building the team from the young and instill in them what it takes to win at the next level.

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From a personnel standpoint, these are still Gibbs' guys, so if we win in the next three years, he should get a portion of the credit. Not as a coach though, just as the guy who built this current roster.

Re: If Zorn Wins..........
 

Gibbs went out and got some great talent for our roster. Also, I feel that Gibbs did a top-notch job mentally developing each and every person on the roster. Not a single team member was left out after the death of Sean Taylor. Everyone pulled together and got through it, feeding off of the perserverance that Joe Gibbs instills in each of his players. He got their heads ready for every game and every player knew they could win every game regardless of the final score. Every team has its player who messes up and sticks out as a trouble maker... except the Redskins.

I believe, just from what I have seen, Zorn lacks the mental aspect of the game. He has the fundementals, and will bring a whole new aproach to how to play football. Not a bad thing by any means. If you add the fundementals he has, along with the perserverance, heart, and teamwork that Gibbs left behind, and finally add the player development and skill position assets that Zorn offers.... We have a great team. I do not think we can win any games in the next five years without attributing at least a little credit to Mr. Gibbs.

One more thing... Joe Gibbs is in that front office serving as an advisor to the team. He is in Dannys box, sitting next to his throne. As long as Gibbs is whispering in Danny's ear, it would not be fair to exclude Gibbs from any of the credit dished out for the Redskins.

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If he loses, should Gibbs get any of the blame?

I honestly don't think he'll get much credit, but he definitely should.

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I liked Gibbs every day but Sunday. For the most part I like the team he put together, but I think his coaching on Sundays left a lot to be desired. The defense is the only reason we won any games. I can only think of a handful of games where our offense put a game away instead of relying on the defense to close it out.

Gibbs has to get some credit for the players in DC, no doubt he improved the roster over what Spurrier had as far as talent goes. We also have to remember, Zorn has never been a coordinator no less a head coach. He'll figure it out but I see it being slow.

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We can argue about Gibbs on a strategic level but what Gibbs proved this second time around is that he is one of the all time great leaders of men in this league. His leadership following the Taylor tragedy will be remembered, I believe, as much as his Superbowl victories a football generation ago.

What Gibbs instilled in and insisted on from his players was character and commitment to team, and if Zorn is successful I believe it will be because of that culture that has already been implemented.

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I wholeheartedly agree with Gmanc. Gibbs was a tad bit too conservative in his playcalling, but he was the glue that kept the team together after it struggled in 2004 and 2006 and had to deal with Sean Taylor's death and a rash of injuries in 2007.

Given our lack of offseason movement, I would say Gibbs definitely built this house. What Zorn does with it is up to him.

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[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;438710]I wholeheartedly agree with Gmanc. Gibbs was a tad bit too conservative in his playcalling, but he was the glue that kept the team together after it struggled in 2004 and 2006 and had to deal with Sean Taylor's death and a rash of injuries in 2007.

Given our lack of offseason movement, I would say Gibbs definitely built this house. What Zorn does with it is up to him.[/QUOTE]

It should be noted that in 2005 and 2007, both years when we made the playoffs...we were pretty much left for dead, which shows how Gibbs could rally a team and keep them together after they were basically left for dead....

In both cases, he carries some of the blame for getting to that point in both seasons, but nevertheless thats what I really admired Gibbs for.

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[QUOTE=Gmanc711;438711]It should be noted that in 2005 and 2007, both years when we made the playoffs...we were pretty much left for dead, which shows how Gibbs could rally a team and keep them together after they were basically left for dead....

In both cases, he carries some of the blame for getting to that point in both seasons, but nevertheless thats what I really admired Gibbs for.[/QUOTE]

But don't forget in both those seasons he had bone head moves that cost us games..Also 1-2 in the playoffs don't count for success..

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this was gibbs team, of course he gets some credit what kind of question is that?

dumb thread IMO.

no offense

Re: If Zorn Wins..........
 

[quote=GTripp0012;438677]From a personnel standpoint, these are still Gibbs' guys, so if we win in the next three years, he should get a portion of the credit. Not as a coach though, just as the guy who built this current roster.[/quote]

[COLOR=black]I agree, that he should get the credit of building the roster and the coaching staff. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]On the opposite end, as a game day coach, I don’t think he intentionally played the offense conservatively. I think it was more the players not playing up to their ability. He expected perfection in every play, so when we took the few shots down field it would count. His team would rarely put together a consistent game. We only have a few games where the offense played a complete game all 4 quarters. The SF blow out, the Dallas game in Washington in 2005 to name the few. When they won those games I saw him open the offense up more the following game. Unfortunately they would take a step backward and Gibbs would rein them back in with his conservative play calling. This offense had to be incredibly frustrating for Gibbs to be so close but just can’t seem to get them to take that last step to consistency.[/COLOR]

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On the field, I think he was kinda holding the team back by not using the players the way they are supposed to be used. Off the field I think he did more for the current Redskin players and staff than anyone ever has. It's almos like Dan brought him in to get the teams mind, and spirits right. Joe has that ability to calm you down, and have you focus on what's important. I'm sure more of the players miss Joe because of the impact he made off the field, as well as on it.

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Joe definitely will deserve some credit for building this current roster.

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If we are successful this year, not only do I think Joe Gibbs will deserve credit for building the team, he will also deserve credit for putting together the coaching staff and for instilling a new spirit and a new attitude in this team. This team, the players and the coaches, is still mostly the team that Gibbs put together and he should get at least some of the credit for any success that Coach Zorn has this year.

Beyond that, however, I really believe that Gibbs' lasting impact has been to change the attitudes and mindset of the organization. At the end of the Spurrier era, the Redskins were an organization that I no longer recognized. The team and the organization seemed to be headed in the direction of the Cardinals and the Lions as perennial losers. Gibbs turned that around. Without Gibbs, I don't think we'd even be the position to hope that a new, first time coach could lead us to success. For leaving the Redskins in a position for us to even be thinking about success next year, Joe Gibbs deserves credit.

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[QUOTE=Sean"Big Hurt"Taylor;438670]I for one believe that Gibbs was holding them back. I believe that he was scared to take chances and always playing not to lose. With Zorn I really believe that we will open up a lot more and take advantage of our talent that we have on the team. Zorn, being from the Holmgren tree, will be what we need on this team. Zorn will win!!! Draft Albert if he is available!![/QUOTE]

I agree, Gibbs held this team back and played not to lose. I hope Zorn lets them play. If people think Gibbs should get any credit for whatever success Zorn might achieve then he has to get blame if the team loses. Gibbs did build this roster but lets face it, there are a lot of holes in this roster so Zorn has his work cut out for him. Are people really that desperate for Gibbs 2.0 to have some kind of successful conclusion that they have to create an imaginary tie to any success Zorn might have?

Bottom line is Gibbs is gone. If this teams wins its on Zorn, if they lose its on Zorn.

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[QUOTE=irish;438781]I agree, Gibbs held this team back and played not to lose. I hope Zorn lets them play. If people think Gibbs should get any credit for whatever success Zorn might achieve then he has to get blame if the team loses. Gibbs did build this roster but lets face it, there are a lot of holes in this roster so Zorn has his work cut out for him. [B]Are people really that desperate for Gibbs 2.0 to have some kind of successful conclusion that they have to create an imaginary tie to any success Zorn might have?[/B]

Bottom line is Gibbs is gone. If this teams wins its on Zorn, if they lose its on Zorn.[/QUOTE]

What imaginary tie? Remember, as you even point out, Gibbs was also President of the team setting the ulimate roster for years to come.

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[quote=irish;438781]I agree, Gibbs held this team back and played not to lose. I hope Zorn lets them play. If people think Gibbs should get any credit for whatever success Zorn might achieve then he has to get blame if the team loses. [B]Gibbs did build this roster[/B] but lets face it, there are a lot of holes in this roster so Zorn has his work cut out for him. Are people really that desperate for Gibbs 2.0 to have some kind of successful conclusion that they have to create an imaginary tie to any success Zorn might have?

Bottom line is Gibbs is gone. If this teams wins its on Zorn, if they lose its on Zorn.[/quote]

You said it right there, what's imaginary about that?

When Gruden won the SB with Tampa, the point is always brought up that he basically did it with Dungy's team. That's a valid point to me, nothing imaginary about it.

As for a successful conclusion to Gibbs 2.0, personally I think the way they rallied down the stretch and made the playoffs when they were seemingly left for dead at 5-7 was a successful ending. It might not have ended with a Super Bowl, but life isn't perfect.

Re: If Zorn Wins..........
 

[quote=Stuck in TX;438682]Gibbs went out and got some great talent for our roster. Also, I feel that Gibbs did a top-notch job mentally developing each and every person on the roster. Not a single team member was left out after the death of Sean Taylor. Everyone pulled together and got through it, feeding off of the perserverance that Joe Gibbs instills in each of his players. He got their heads ready for every game and every player knew they could win every game regardless of the final score. Every team has its player who messes up and sticks out as a trouble maker... except the Redskins.

[B]I believe, just from what I have seen, Zorn lacks the mental aspect of the game.[/B] He has the fundementals, and will bring a whole new aproach to how to play football. Not a bad thing by any means. If you add the fundementals he has, along with the perserverance, heart, and teamwork that Gibbs left behind, and finally add the player development and skill position assets that Zorn offers.... We have a great team. I do not think we can win any games in the next five years without attributing at least a little credit to Mr. Gibbs.

One more thing... Joe Gibbs is in that front office serving as an advisor to the team. He is in Dannys box, sitting next to his throne. As long as Gibbs is whispering in Danny's ear, it would not be fair to exclude Gibbs from any of the credit dished out for the Redskins.[/quote]

What do you mean exactly?

Re: If Zorn Wins..........
 

Without any question Joe Gibbs will deserve credit. This is Gibbs' roster. If Zorn loses this year, it probably won't be because of the players, it will be because of his lack of experience as head coach. Honestly though, I believe Zorn has a much better chance at being a winning head coach right out of the gate (considering the condition of the team he is inheriting) rather than being a losing coach.

Most often, a coach who comes in losing is inheriting a team that has been losing on a regular basis or needs to be rebuilt. While there are still some holes left to fill on this team, Gibbs left Zorn a playoff team to work with. All Zorn has to do is fill in the holes.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;438785]You said it right there, what's imaginary about that?

When Gruden won the SB with Tampa, the point is always brought up that he basically did it with Dungy's team. That's a valid point to me, nothing imaginary about it.

As for a successful conclusion to Gibbs 2.0, personally I think the way they rallied down the stretch and made the playoffs when they were seemingly left for dead at 5-7 was a successful ending. It might not have ended with a Super Bowl, but life isn't perfect.[/QUOTE]

I hear you and I see the connection is real. Since there is a connection, if something goes wrong and this team flops I will expect to see Gibbs getting his fair share of the critism. I doubt that will happen though. IMO this is Zorn's team in good & bad. He gets the praise & the blame.

Lets face it Matty, Gibbs was brought back to win a Super Bowl and the fact that we have to point to rallying a team back from 5-7 as a good ending really crystalizes how disappointing Gibbs 2.0 was.

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[quote=irish;438801]I hear you and I see the connection is real. Since there is a connection, if something goes wrong and this team flops I will expect to see Gibbs getting his fair share of the critism. I doubt that will happen though. IMO this is Zorn's team in good & bad. He gets the praise & the blame.

[B]Lets face it Matty, Gibbs was brought back to win a Super Bowl and the fact that we have to point to rallying a team back from 5-7 as a good ending really crystalizes how disappointing Gibbs 2.0 was[/B].[/quote]


Maybe for you it was, but putting everything in perspective I think it was a fitting ending. Classic Gibbs all the way. His teams always found a way to fight through adversity. Of course I would have loved to see him ride off with a SB win, but as I said life isn't perfect and in the end he left the team in better shape than it was when he got here.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;438805]Maybe for you it was, but putting everything in perspective I think it was a fitting ending. Classic Gibbs all the way. His teams always found a way to fight through adversity. Of course I would have loved to see him ride off with a SB win, but as I said life isn't perfect and in the end he left the team in better shape than it was when he got here.[/QUOTE]

I agree it was a fitting ending. A disappointing ending to a disappointing tenure.

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Why am I not surprised?

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Gibbs should get alot of credit if Zorn wins. I relate our team to the cowboys of last year. I think Gibbs did a great job building an excellent foundation of a team (Much like Parcells did for the Cowboys, who got alot credit for their success in '07) and now its time for a young Jim Zorn to open it up and make us a top notch team. Offense is what I am worried about. Our defense remains good every year and I like the Blache hiring from within. Offense has always been our problem and I think that is where Gibbs was holding us back. However I said it once and I'll say it again: Next season will have little to do with the success of Zorn but the success of Jason Campbell. Campbell is what our entire future rests upon. If we want to go deep into the playoffs for once Campbell needs to get alot better. Although I like Campbell, I think he has all the tools, I am still not sold that he is our franchise QB and anyone who is sold is a fool.

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[quote=SmootSmack;438683]If he loses, should Gibbs get any of the blame?

I honestly don't think he'll get much credit, but he definitely should.[/quote]

Of course he should. Unless Zorn brings in 53 new players, Gibbs will have contributed to any success the team has since he built the roster.

Failure however, has to be examined a bit more carefully. It could be attributed to Zorn's gameplans or use of the players.

We know this Skins team CAN win, even through turmoil and injuries. Some coaches can wreck good teams or just can't cut it as a leader (Spurrier). Hopefully Zorn is not one of those.

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[QUOTE=irish;438801]I hear you and I see the connection is real. Since there is a connection, if something goes wrong and this team flops I will expect to see Gibbs getting his fair share of the critism. I doubt that will happen though. IMO this is Zorn's team in good & bad. He gets the praise & the blame.

Lets face it Matty, Gibbs was brought back to win a Super Bowl and the fact that we have to point to rallying a team back from 5-7 as a good ending really crystalizes how disappointing Gibbs 2.0 was.[/QUOTE]

Gibbs wasn't brought back for the sole purpose of winning a Super Bowl. He was also (perhaps more importantly) brought back to "right the ship" and restore some pride and purpose to the franchise for many years to come.

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[quote=SmootSmack;438824]Gibbs wasn't brought back for the sole purpose of winning a Super Bowl. He was also (perhaps more importantly) brought back to "right the ship" and restore some pride and purpose to the franchise for many years to come.[/quote]

Good point. Of course the ultimate goal is to win it all, but there are many more factors at play as you mention that he should be judged on.

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[QUOTE=SmootSmack;438824]Gibbs wasn't brought back for the sole purpose of winning a Super Bowl. He was also (perhaps more importantly) brought back to "right the ship" and restore some pride and purpose to the franchise for many years to come.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Matty that many other factors other than winning a SB were at play for Gibbs. It remains to be seen if he has in fact righted the ship. We will know for sure in a few years.

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[QUOTE=irish;438833]I agree with Matty that many other factors other than winning a SB were at play for Gibbs. It remains to be seen if he has in fact righted the ship. We will know for sure in a few years.[/QUOTE]

so far so good, but like you said, only time will tell. I can remember in previous years players who stood out and always had something to say (Stephen Davis, Micheal Westbrook, Albert Connell, Lavar, etc.....), but the past few years it just seems like the players werent working for Gibbs, they were working for each other. I like that and think that it is a key to winning in this league.

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He'll get some deserved credit if the Skins do well this year because he rebuilt the franchise from the shambles of the Spurrier era and was the most successful with making the playoffs twice in the past 3 years. He dramatically changed the roster and the culture at Redskins park during his 2.0 tenure.

He will also get some deserved grief if they are MORE successful than a middling near .500 team with extended losing streaks as they were under him. The telling sign will be how the offense performs. Of course Campbell is more experienced and should be making better decisions now than he was in his first 16 starts, but the playcalling under Gibbs/Saunders was very conservative for the most part and predictable/unimaginative at best. I've been re-watching some of the games from this past year (most recently the TB game) and it's shocking how basic most of the game plan was. It's no wonder we struggled to score 21 pts a game. It's funny how universally (so far) the players have said the offense will be 'more spread out and explosive' (Portis) and 'better suited to some of our strengths (Cooley) this year. If the '08 Skins turn into a scoring machine (acknowledging Campbell developing and the return of Jansen/Thomas are factors) then there is something to be said about the previous under-utilization of our talent.

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[quote=irish;438801]I hear you and I see the connection is real. Since there is a connection, if something goes wrong and this team flops I will expect to see Gibbs getting his fair share of the critism. I doubt that will happen though. IMO this is Zorn's team in good & bad. He gets the praise & the blame.

Lets face it Matty, Gibbs was brought back to win a Super Bowl and the fact that we have to point to rallying a team back from 5-7 as a good ending really crystalizes how disappointing Gibbs 2.0 was.[/quote]
Did Gibbs turn you down for an autograph or something....

I had my problems with Gibbs 2.0, but bottom line is: 2 playoff appearances in 3 years is not a bad or "disappointing" tenure considering where we were before Gibbs came back. He definitely changed the culture around Redskins Park and brought respectability back to the franchise.

And yes, he will shoulder [B]some[/B] responsibility for the roster going forward, win or lose.

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Gibbs should get MASSIVE credit.
Before he came, we had Spurrier...what a joke.
This team has pulled a Dr Jeckle and Mr Hyde.
Yes it took a complete overhaul of players and coaching staff....
If you put it in perspective, we went from a laughingstock to a playoff team in just 2 years....and playoffs 2 of the last 3 in extremely difficult circumstances....dont forget the front office issues too.

Gibbs has resurrected this franchise...he has brought back the pride in Redskins Park.
In many ways, this may have been a far greater task than winning a Superbowl.

Yes, he was conservative, but c'mon...an old Brunell taking us to the playoffs?.....Collins doing so after no starts in 10 years?.....that is the midas touch.

In some ways...Snyder has the perfect opportunity to take a chance on a rookie coach.
22 of 22 starters back?....wow...
I must say, I am a little worried..as long as we stay away from tough head coaching issues that distract from X's and O's (such as a head case player)...we should be fine.

Credit always goes to the head coach....but so does blame....no one will blame Gibbs for a bad season this year...but they may give him some credit if they make the playoffs.

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Gibbs is in the HOF for a reason. Without Gibbs this team was nothing, he held Campbell back for a reason, that being that you don't throw a young QB into the wolves and expect not lose his confidence and damage him. This to me was Joe Gibbs finest coaching performance ever, to make it to the playoffs with the number of injuries all over the roster, tragic events, etc. Yes, Joe surrounded himself with a very experienced coaching staff, but at the end of the day he called the shots, not Danny. Joe deserves most of the credit, I for one disagree with the fans and experts that criticized Joe. If Joe would have come back next year I would have seen us in the SB. We'll see what Jim Z. can do with the team he inherited.

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Well hopefully this will benefit us..look at past coachs who left and how good the team did the following year..i.e.The Cowboys,Chargers and Steelers last year..The Bucs won it the following year that Tony Dungy left.We'll be okay..

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the redskins are in better shape now than they have been in years.gibbs righted the ship and now the new captain just needs to learn how to sail.

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[QUOTE=SmootSmack;438824]Gibbs wasn't brought back for the sole purpose of winning a Super Bowl. He was also (perhaps more importantly) brought back to "right the ship" and restore some pride and purpose to the franchise for many years to come.[/QUOTE]

And with that said, Joe Gibbs was very successful in doing so in his second tenure.