RI: JZ and JC
 

Paul Tenorio reports:

Here at the start of the afternoon practice, one of Zorn's quirky quarterback drills has made its first appearance. No, not the slip n' slide, this instead is similar to a drill in the Madden video game training camp mode.

link: [URL="http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/05/jz_and_jc.html"]JZ and JC (With Afternoon Update) - Redskins Insider[/URL]

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

I just hope it don't take the offense 6 games to get on the same page.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

Good, he had a huge problem sailing balls over open receivers heads last season. Hopefully, this will fix that problem.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=skinsqc;446680]I just hope it don't take the offense 6 games to get on the same page.[/quote]

Hm I doubt it, it's not lilke Zorn is making a fat playbook, fatter than Saunders' 700 pages playbook..

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

All these drills are obviously designed to help make JC more proficient as a passer, and it will be interesting to see the finished product.

"The Knees Are The Keys" Interesting!!

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

I would rather have Todd Collins start anyways. Granted, he ran an Al Saunders offense that he knew in KC, but he has what it takes to win games and run an offense. his QB rating was about 100, and lead us to 5 straight wins. Its clear Campbell cannot run an offense. He makes too many key mistakes, like the ends of the TB and Dallas games where he threw costly picks. His TD and INT ratio is bad, and his QB rating has been low as well, in the high 70's. The upsetting thing is that his stats show no improvement year to year. We cannot win with him, just look at his record as a starter, its below 500. though collins is old, he really hasnt been banged up much in his career due to being a backup.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

Goredskins -- this is why the Redskins typically don't draft. Redskins fans are idiots. Jason Campbell is a young QB, he's going to make costly mistakes -- but if he's not in there making them he will not learn. If you want to look at his stats, and their lack of improvement -- I suggest you also look at how long he's been in a system and allowed to grow and learn the nuances of that particular offense. Every year this kid gets a playbook thrown at him, he spends all offseason studying it and working on it.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

nice article, a few years down the road JC is really going to benefit from zorns fundamentals, approach and technique.

daseal - no need to indirectly call the man in idiot. i agree with him that JC does sail the ball more than you like to see, puts the ball behind the receiver so they have to reach back and doesnt see the field well so he locks on his intended receiver the whole time or waits until the receiver is open before getting rid of it.

you cant argue with the fact that collins did show us what a knowledgable on-time good read quarterback looks like last year, granted he knows saunders system about as well as anybody. collins showed us what JC lacks before he can be an elite qb and in some ways showed us just how far he has to go in his development. JC does alot of things well like not being bothered by pressure and keeping his eyes down field and is definetly our QB this year and next year but i agree with people who think he lacks and needs to develop certain other qb intangibles before we will start winning consistently. i am a JC fan and believer, no hate.

go skins!

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447642]I would rather have Todd Collins start anyways. Granted, he ran an Al Saunders offense that he knew in KC, but he has what it takes to win games and run an offense. his QB rating was about 100, and lead us to 5 straight wins. Its clear Campbell cannot run an offense. He makes too many key mistakes, like the ends of the TB and Dallas games where he threw costly picks. His TD and INT ratio is bad, and his QB rating has been low as well, in the high 70's. The upsetting thing is that his stats show no improvement year to year. We cannot win with him, just look at his record as a starter, its below 500. though collins is old, he really hasnt been banged up much in his career due to being a backup.[/quote]

Thank goodness Collins didn't make any mistakes when he was under pressure and forced to try to win a game coming from behind. Oh by the way, I didn't catch the playoff game in Seattle, what happened in that one?

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;447644]Goredskins -- this is why the Redskins typically don't draft. Redskins fans are idiots. Jason Campbell is a young QB, he's going to make costly mistakes -- but if he's not in there making them he will not learn. If you want to look at his stats, and their lack of improvement -- I suggest you also look at how long he's been in a system and allowed to grow and learn the nuances of that particular offense. Every year this kid gets a playbook thrown at him, he spends all offseason studying it and working on it.[/QUOTE]

woah, woah there. i agree with much of what you've said here. but easy on the "redskins fans are idiots" - REDSKIN FAN.

you'd be much more accurate in concluding that many SPORTS fans, or even just people in general, are idiots. there's actually some pretty sensible, knowledgeable fans here.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

SC Skins fan - even with that shit game in Seattle, he still had a QB rating 20 points higher the Campbell when the season was over.

lets review the stats:
Collins was 5 -1 as a starter
Campbell was 4 -7 as a starter
exactly............its all about wins and losses.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

or 4-1
vs 5-7

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

todd collins has and will remain a backup....he is a backup, end of story...

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447652]SC Skins fan - even with that shit game in Seattle, he still had a QB rating 20 points higher the Campbell when the season was over.

lets review the stats:
Collins was 5 -1 as a starter
Campbell was 4 -7 as a starter
exactly............its all about wins and losses.[/quote]

Collins played very well at the end of last year, and I think all Redskins fans will hold a special place for him in their hearts for that (well, as long as he doesn't play anymore and end up playing poorly - see Mark Brunell and fans booing him after he took us to the playoffs in 2005). Now, if you are going to go with your 'it's just about wins' then fine, but I'll make several points.

1) Collins also had the benefit of a healthy Santana Moss, a healthy Clinton Portis, and an O-Line that finally came together a bit. Part of the offensive success was certainly due to Collins, but there were other factors too, let's not forget that.

2) If you want to do a comparison why not look at the last 5 games Jason Campbell played (Philadelphia to Chicago) and compare those to the 5 games that Collins started. That leaves out a couple of the best games Campbell had last year too, but what you see is that Campbell was developing as the year progressed. He had two 300 yard games (Collins had zero), he had another game where he threw 3 tds (Collins never did that), he completed over 60% of his passes in all but the Buffalo game (and we all know what was going on that week), and had more TDs than INTs (albeit 6-5).

3) Even if you wanted to make the case the Collins should start (and you might be the only person on here who would do that) then you are saying you want to go with a 37 year old guy who maybe has two years left, take the team away from Campbell and basically abandon him because it would be tough to come back after that. So in one or two years you'll have to go find another QB ... and those aren't so easy to find. Just ask Chicago.

But welcome tot he board nonetheless.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[QUOTE=goredskins1983;447642]I would rather have Todd Collins start anyways. Granted, he ran an Al Saunders offense that he knew in KC, but he has what it takes to win games and run an offense. his QB rating was about 100, and lead us to 5 straight wins. Its clear Campbell cannot run an offense. He makes too many key mistakes, like the ends of the TB and Dallas games where he threw costly picks. His TD and INT ratio is bad, and his QB rating has been low as well, in the high 70's. The upsetting thing is that his stats show no improvement year to year. We cannot win with him, just look at his record as a starter, its below 500. though collins is old, he really hasnt been banged up much in his career due to being a backup.[/QUOTE]

:pffff:

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

SC Skins fan:
#1 i can agree to an extent. nonethless, collins manages the game and offense. campbell just looks uneasy.

#2 is not a good point. Joe Gibbs offenses are all about ball control. When our QB throws for 300 yards, its usually means we are losing. Its all about managing the game and not losing it (ala TB and Dallas game this year, Campbells INTs were costly)

#3 - I want a QB that gives us the best chance to win NOW. How much longer are we going to wait for this guy to lead us deep in the playoffs? 2,3,4 more years? never?
Campbell was highly sought after his 11-0 season with Auburn, mind you they had the #1 D in the nation giving up like 200 yards a game, and he basically just "didnt lose games"
His QB rating has been in the bottom tier of the league the last two years.
Believe me, I hope I am wrong and he takes us to the promise land.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447662]SC Skins fan:
#2 is not a good point. Joe Gibbs offenses are all about ball control. When our QB throws for 300 yards, its usually means we are losing. Its all about managing the game and not losing it (ala TB and Dallas game this year, Campbells INTs were costly)
[/quote]

I don't know why I allow myself to get dragged into fruitless arguments, but...

You are running around in circles with your points. Campbell throws for 300 yards only because the Redskins are losing ... fair point, but were the Redskins losing to Dallas because of Campbell? Perhaps you remember the Sean Taylor-less defensive backfield that allowed T.O. to score FOUR TDs? How about in Tampa where Santana Moss fumbled inside the 30, Clinton Portis fumbled inside the 30, and then (admittedly) Campbell fumbled inside the 30 (something he certainly did too much of last season). But the point is, the fact that Campbell was playing from behind or forced to pass is not in itself an indictment of Campbell. I think you really ought to go back and watch some of those games again because I think you are looking back through Todd Collins tinted glasses. You say Campbell looked 'uneasy' and yet at the time many commentators and many here were describing him as 'poised' (go watch the Detroit game or the first Philly game - if you can make it past the endless Charles Barkley commentary - or any number of other games) - my point is you are making up your own history to suit your own purposes.

The larger point here (which I tried to make earlier with sarcasm) is that Todd Collins made those exact same kinds of mistakes that you indict Campbell for during the Seattle game when he was forced to play from behind and the Skins could not mix in a healthy dose of the run game. He was under heavy pressure (as Campbell often was), he was playing from behind, and he turned the ball over too. As I said, luckily you are the only one calling for Todd Collins to start because it is the height of absurdity.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

^ agreed.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

i agree two or is that three

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

oh the commentators said he looked poised. then its bible. please....

we can round and round about specific games. look at the arizona game this year the redskins won and amassed 178 yards or so of total offense. campbell was awful. most of the points were setup off of Skins picks - taylor (RIP) and Fletcher.

Sure the Skins were behind in both those games against TB and Dallas - but good QBs finish those drives with game winning TD's, not Ints. both those picks were not even close to the receiver. I understand collins threw cost picks in the Seattle game, thats why looking at an overall QB rating takes into consideration the average entire season, and Campbell continues to be in the high 70's, which is in the bottom third of the league. its kind of hard to argue stats. 4-6 as a starter wont cut it in DC. Cambpell is lucky there was a coaching change, because Gibbs would have stuck with Collins.


you know, this is the same argument I had with people when they were high on Ramsey.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447668]
we can round and round about specific games. look at the arizona game this year the redskins won and amassed 178 yards or so of total offense. campbell was awful. most of the points were setup off of Skins picks - taylor (RIP) and Fletcher.
[/quote]

Jason also led the drive that won the game and made a huge play when he held the ball instead of executing the shovel pass that was called to Clinton Portis. Calvin Pace had the play diagnosed and was ready to blow up Portis or intercept the ball. Seeing that Campbell decided to keep the ball and ran something like 14 yards for a 1st down. Watch the games ...

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

well, even rex grossman and trent edwards have thrown a game winning TD. would you say they are good?

again, look at the overall record as a starter and his QB rating......
4-6 and 78%....not even average

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447676]well, even rex grossman and trent edwards have thrown a game winning TD. would you say they are good?

again, look at the overall record as a starter and his QB rating......
4-6 and 78%....not even average[/quote]

Grossman, no; Trent Edwards, I don't know because he hasn't started enough games, which is the same thing I'd say about Campbell (I'd rather judge a QB after 30 starts). Also, I don't even know where you are getting your numbers from. I mean, the actually numbers might actually support your case more, but where are you getting 4-6 as a starter? It is like 7-12 actually. Just sloppy on your part since the real numbers would actually lend to your argument.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

It seems that if there isn't a real QB controversy some of us create on ourselves lol. It's really as simple as Campbell is much younger then Collins and he's the QB that Zorn wants running (and learning) his offense.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

was referring to this year. actually it was 5-6. either way its below average.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

what exactly is the "average" that he is below. Can you find that for me.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

well lets see smart guy, normally you need a winning record to make the playoffs

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

You win, I think Zorn should spend the offseason tearing apart Collins mechanics and rebuilding them so he can put together 1-2 seasons of quality game managment for us until he starts drawing Social Security. That would have worked great in Seattle too. Zorn could have spent his time with Trent Dilfer and not wasted any time on that Matt Hasselbeck kid (3 probowls) who was below average. Lord knows developing a probowler for the next decade or so is not near as important as what happens games 1-6 this season.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

Must be the offseason... :sleep:

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

Hey, I'm still pissed that Kent Graham never got the chance to be our starter after the 2001 season!! Seriously though, Collins/Campbell is a tough call, but Campbell is our future. I think SC Skins Fan has already cleared it up for those who don't think Campbell has the skills to take us all the way. Just be glad we have a very competent backup in Todd Collins and let Jason Campbell lead the way.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447685]well lets see smart guy, normally you need a winning record to make the playoffs[/quote]

Normally you also need to play the whole season to be judged by that. He only got to play 12 full games, who's to say how the next 4 would go?

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

Good to see the communication between Coach Zorn and Jason working well. Hopefully, it will translate into a productive season for Campbell and the Redskins.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

GhostSkin - look at Hasselbacks stats his 2nd year - they were alot better then Campbells. Campbell has show no improvement from one year to the next. I want a guy who can do better then 7 - 12 as a starter.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[QUOTE=goredskins1983;447717]GhostSkin - look at Hasselbacks stats his 2nd year - they were alot better then Campbells. Campbell has show no improvement from one year to the next. I want a guy who can do better then 7 - 12 as a starter.[/QUOTE]

Hasselbeck's second year of his career when he was in Green Bay? Or his second year in Seattle? Didn't Hasselbeck have Zorn his whole time in Seattle? Call me crazy on this one, but that was Hasselbeck's second year with Zorn as his QB coach. So, lets just see what Zorn can do with JC in two years...

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447652]SC Skins fan - even with that shit game in Seattle, he still had a QB rating 20 points higher the Campbell when the season was over.

lets review the stats:
Collins was 5 -1 as a starter
Campbell was 4 -7 as a starter
exactly............its all about wins and losses.[/quote]

stats are important to a point. they never ever tell the whole story. one thing i can't stand is when people use the qb W/L record. totally useless.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447685]well lets see smart guy, normally you need a winning record to make the playoffs[/quote]Hey, you know who posted a measly 12-20 record from 2005-2006?

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FavrBr00.htm"]This guy[/URL].

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

The Z man is going to help JC beyond any of our wildest dreams, I bet you see JC have a break out year with a healthy line, new weapons, and an offensive system that he had great sucess with at Auburn. Todd Collins is the man, but the future is JC.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[quote=goredskins1983;447717]GhostSkin - look at Hasselbacks stats his 2nd year - they were alot better then Campbells. Campbell has show no improvement from one year to the next. I want a guy who can do better then 7 - 12 as a starter.[/quote]

So you want us to look at Hasselbeck's 4th year and compare it to Campbell's 3rd year (which was also cut short by injury)? Ok, I'll take the arbitrary numbers and compile them right now.

Hasselbeck had 375 more yards passing (3,075-2,700), completed 3.7% more passes (63.7%-60%), threw 3 more touchdowns (15-12) and one less interception (10-11). Oh, and Hasselbeck was 5-5 as a starter (10-12 through his first 22 starts). It was also, what, his 4th year in the same offense? But, hell, by your logic the Seahawks should have gone with Trent Dilfer and dumped Hasselbeck.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

unfortunately it looks like we have to give this guy another year, but im guessing it wont be the entire year......

the only point you guys can potentially make is that its early on in his career, and HOPE for better things to come. but as of now, he has done nothing in terms of showing he could become a solid starter. he makes plays here and there, but so does any QB. his QB rating has been in the bottom third the last two years.....but based on what you write, stats dont matter. how do you answer the low QB rating? injuries on the O-Line? lack of receivers? skins difficult schedule? please, ever team deals with that.

Re: RI: JZ and JC
 

[QUOTE=goredskins1983;447740]unfortunately it looks like we have to give this guy another year, but im guessing it wont be the entire year......

the only point you guys can potentially make is that its early on in his career, and HOPE for better things to come. but as of now, he has done nothing in terms of showing he could become a solid starter. he makes plays here and there, but so does any QB. his QB rating has been in the bottom third the last two years.....but based on what you write, stats dont matter. how do you answer the low QB rating? injuries on the O-Line? lack of receivers? skins difficult schedule? please, ever team deals with that.[/QUOTE]

So besides blindly ripping Campbell in every thread, do you plan to ever post something of value on this board?