Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

One of failure in which his lack of a Superbowl will dominate any achievement?
Moderately successful, characterized by two playoff seasons, in spite of some............substancial situations encountered along the way (ex ST's early departure form earth, etc)?
One that is still playing out as this is still basically his team, and may be molded in his image for some time to come as he tutored The Dan, and Vinny in the ways of The Force (which we are realizing today)?

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

I think it's somewhere in between the second and third one you have listed. Joe Gibbs restored stability to this franchise. I was a pretty big critic of Gibbs during his tenure, I always respected his first stint, but to me, he was a new coach when he came back. Joe may not have delivered a Super Bowl, but he did deliver a team who is poised, with a little more guidance to become a pretty good one for a long time.

I don't know whether Snyder matured as an owner because of Gibbs or not, but the approach taken this offseason was refreshing and I was glad to see it. If we credit Gibbs with that, then his second tenure was an overwhelming success. He single handedly changed the culture of the Washington Redskins.

Regardless of his W-L record, he restored order to a franchise that was becoming an embarassment.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

If Jason Campbell turns out to be our franchise quarterback, then he pretty much saved the franchise

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=steveo395;464368]If Jason Campbell turns out to be our franchise quarterback, then he pretty much saved the franchise[/QUOTE]

Too bad Gibbs never gave any of the newbie QBs (Ramsey and Campbell) any chance to start. Granted, Ramsey is probably a dud, but Gibbs should have never put his faith on #8. He should've put JC in as soon as #8 screwed up, and help him develop.

Honestly, to me Joe 2 would be "should've, could've, would've".

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=steveo395;464368]If Jason Campbell turns out to be our franchise quarterback, then he pretty much saved the franchise[/quote]

What he said. Other than that we drafted very well and had way way way too conservative of an offense.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=steveo395;464368]If Jason Campbell turns out to be our franchise quarterback, then he pretty much saved the franchise[/quote]

Even without Campbell's success, he already saved the franchise.

The years without him were PAINFUL and a little embarrassing.

Have you noticed how much smarter Snyder and his staff have become at assessing players and football decisions in general since Gibbs came back?

Snyder went from being a good businessman and horrible football owner to being one of the better all-around owners in the league.


Gibbs returned our pride in our team and brought us back to the relevancy in the NFL we've always known but temporarily lost.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;464362]I think it's somewhere in between the second and third one you have listed. Joe Gibbs restored stability to this franchise. I was a pretty big critic of Gibbs during his tenure, I always respected his first stint, but to me, he was a new coach when he came back. Joe may not have delivered a Super Bowl, but he did deliver a team who is poised, with a little more guidance to become a pretty good one for a long time.

I don't know whether Snyder matured as an owner because of Gibbs or not, but the approach taken this offseason was refreshing and I was glad to see it. If we credit Gibbs with that, then his second tenure was an overwhelming success. He single handedly changed the culture of the Washington Redskins.

Regardless of his W-L record, he restored order to a franchise that was becoming an embarassment.[/QUOTE]

What he said (except I wasn't a big critic)

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

I'd say he did moderately successful as head coach during his second tenure, but his real impact came by reshaping the roster into something formidable by getting rid of mostly everyone that Spurrier brought in. He brought us back to respectability in the NFL, and he set up Jim Zorn for future success with the roster. No we're not one of the elite teams in the league but he set us up so that in the future we can be.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

I think people may not realize just what Gibbs did for this franchise in this second tenure. I realize a lot of it didn't necessarily convert to a lot of wins on the field, but he certainly put Jim Zorn in a great position to have the best opportunity to succeed.

If anything, I think Gibbs being here in his second tenure gave Redskins fans a reason to think more optimistically about the team.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;464376]Too bad Gibbs never gave any of the newbie QBs (Ramsey and Campbell) any chance to start. Granted, Ramsey is probably a dud, but Gibbs should have never put his faith on #8. He should've put JC in as soon as #8 screwed up, and help him develop.

Honestly, to me Joe 2 would be "should've, could've, would've".[/quote]


He did give Ramsey a chance. He stunk it up. Remember that 80 yard TD pass to Moss during year one? After that, Ramsey fell apart.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=Buster;464390]Even without Campbell's success, he already saved the franchise.

The years without him were PAINFUL and a little embarrassing.

Have you noticed how much smarter Snyder and his staff have become at assessing players and football decisions in general since Gibbs came back?

Snyder went from being a good businessman and horrible football owner to being one of the better all-around owners in the league.


Gibbs returned our pride in our team and brought us back to the relevancy in the NFL we've always known but temporarily lost.[/quote]

For me, the most noticeable achievement is the before and after JGII:

Before he came we had been in the playoffs ONCE in about 12 years, a rate of 8.125%

After he comes we are in them 2 of four years- 50%.

I agree that the biggest long term influence is on the transformation of Snyder and Cerrato into competent professionals in their NFL roles.

Snyder is a different owner than he was five years ago. For the beter.

J-Dawg

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Im a Gibbs fan, but his record speaks for itself.
1. He won less than 50% of his games in 4 years.
2. Won 1 of 3 playoff games, and you can chalk most of that up to the D.
3. He (the skins) spent a ton of money on players and coaches.
4. He couldnt drop Brunell, when he was hurting the team.
5. Couldnt put together a team that didnt have a bunch of motion penalties, false starts, and delay of games.

If this were any other coach, everyone would say that he was garbage. This is a "what have you done for me lately" league, and he didnt do much the second time around. But heck, he had a team that fought thier guts out.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=XXVI;464432]He did give Ramsey a chance. He stunk it up. Remember that 80 yard TD pass to Moss during year one? After that, Ramsey fell apart.[/quote]

I'm no Ramsey apologist, but i think Ramsey was replaced at the start of the 2nd half of the 1st game of JGll.

I think it would have been the right decision if the guy who replaced him wasn't named Mark Brunell. Neither could play so i guess it doesn't matter.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

JLC pretty much sums up my feelings. Am I really that bitter?
[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/08/framing_the_past_to_evaluate_t.html#more]Framing the Past to Evaluate the Future - Redskins Insider[/url]

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=Stacks42;464457]Im a Gibbs fan, but his record speaks for itself.
1. He won less than 50% of his games in 4 years.
2. Won 1 of 3 playoff games, and you can chalk most of that up to the D.
3. He (the skins) spent a ton of money on players and coaches.
4. He couldnt drop Brunell, when he was hurting the team.
5. Couldnt put together a team that didnt have a bunch of motion penalties, false starts, and delay of games.

If this were any other coach, everyone would say that he was garbage. This is a "what have you done for me lately" league, and he didnt do much the second time around. But heck, he had a team that fought thier guts out.[/quote]

While i agree w/ alot of what you said, IF we have a nucleus that sticks around a couple of years and is successful I think JG's term here will be viewed more positively.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42;464460]JLC pretty much sums up my feelings. Am I really that bitter?
[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/08/framing_the_past_to_evaluate_t.html#more]Framing the Past to Evaluate the Future - Redskins Insider[/url][/QUOTE]

I think J-La had some good points, but he also needlessly was beating a dead horse with some others. I was as big a critic of 2.0 as I was a fan of Gibbs first run as HC. He left the franchise better than it was when he got here, but on the field his teams were a disappointment and he made some HUGE mistakes that I think a more contemporary coach wouldn't have made.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

It's a new era, time to move forward. JLC must be bored.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Moderately Successful. I can see how some might consider the lack of a SB title to mean a failure. I wouldn't go that far. Gibbs has to be commended for:
1. Assembling a talented team around a nucleus of character guys
2. Going after some great draft choices (Vinny also deserving of credit here)
3. Keeping the team together after ST's death
4. Two playoff appearances

On the other hand, he has to be criticized for:
1. Sub-par offensive performance by the team over last 4 seasons - Gibbs was in charge of the offense.
2. Conservative playcalling during games and restraining Al Saunders' play calling freedom
3. Inconsistent team showings (we would lose regularly to bad teams, e.g. Baltimore in 04, Cleveland in 04, Oakland in 05, Tennessee in 06, etc) - players deserve blame for this too, but Gibbs should've had them ready to beat up on these types of teams.
4. Stubborn reliance on Brunell even when he was injured and/or ineffective
5. Not being a threat in the playoffs even when we made it

The sad part about that last point is few people other than skins fans will remember the 04-07 skins as a playoff team even though we made it to the post season twice - we just weren't threatening enough in the playoffs (despite beating Tampa).

I'm glad Joe stepped down because we never had a chance of being a championship team under him during his second stint. He knew it too. Zorn might not get us there either, but at least its looking good so far and the players seem to have a degree of enthusiasm markedly higher than in previous years and are looking like they've bought into his scheme and coaching style.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

If you measure "Gibbs 2.0" by the standards of "Gibbs 1.0", then the second coming was pretty much a failure. If "Gibbs 1.0" had not gotten him voted into the HoF, then "Gibbs 2.0" would not have polished his resume in any way; he'd be on the outside looking in for the rest of eternity.

If you measure Gibbs 2.0 by the standard of Steve Spurrier/Norv Turner performances, then "Gibbs 2.0" is a roaring success.

Is the glass half-full? Is the glass half-empty?

Or is the glass twice as big as it needs to be???

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=hurrykaine;464479]Moderately Successful. I can see how some might consider the lack of a SB title to mean a failure. I wouldn't go that far. Gibbs has to be commended for:
1. Assembling a talented team around a nucleus of character guys
2. Going after some great draft choices (Vinny also deserving of credit here)
3. Keeping the team together after ST's death
4. Two playoff appearances

On the other hand, he has to be criticized for:
1. Sub-par offensive performance by the team over last 4 seasons - Gibbs was in charge of the offense.
2. Conservative playcalling during games and restraining Al Saunders' play calling freedom
3. Inconsistent team showings (we would lose regularly to bad teams, e.g. Baltimore in 04, Cleveland in 04, Oakland in 05, Tennessee in 06, etc) - players deserve blame for this too, but Gibbs should've had them ready to beat up on these types of teams.
4. Stubborn reliance on Brunell even when he was injured and/or ineffective
5. Not being a threat in the playoffs even when we made it

The sad part about that last point is few people other than skins fans will remember the 04-07 skins as a playoff team even though we made it to the post season twice - we just weren't threatening enough in the playoffs (despite beating Tampa).

I'm glad Joe stepped down because we never had a chance of being a championship team under him during his second stint. He knew it too. Zorn might not get us there either, but at least its looking good so far and the players seem to have a degree of enthusiasm markedly higher than in previous years and are looking like they've bought into his scheme and coaching style.[/QUOTE]

I would also criticize JG bringing in Saunders and installing a brand new complex offense the year after we made our first run to the playoffs. I believe that was the year that we were hyped up by the media and ended up 5-11.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=Stacks42;464457]Im a Gibbs fan, but his record speaks for itself.
1. He won less than 50% of his games in 4 years.
2. Won 1 of 3 playoff games, and you can chalk most of that up to the D.
3. He (the skins) spent a ton of money on players and coaches.
4. He couldnt drop Brunell, when he was hurting the team.
5. Couldnt put together a team that didnt have a bunch of motion penalties, false starts, and delay of games.

If this were any other coach, everyone would say that he was garbage. This is a "what have you done for me lately" league, and he didnt do much the second time around. But heck, he had a team that fought thier guts out.[/QUOTE]

This is an honest and accurate assessment of Gibbs 2.0. Like someone in another post said, in comparison to Norv and OBC Gibbs 2 looked pretty good but in comparison to Gibbs 1 it didnt look so hot. Gibbs was not brought back to out do Norv & OBC, he was brought back to repeat Gibbs 1 and he didnt come close.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;464478]It's a new era, time to move forward. JLC must be bored.[/quote]

Thank you! I sure didn't agree with a lot of what Gibbs 2 did. But he sure did bring us back to respectability. Anyone remember games in 03 when Dallas shut us out at home? We were a 2nd rate team back then. But it's time to move on now. Joe is gone now and I really like what Zorn is doing now. Time to turn the page!

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon;464480]If you measure "Gibbs 2.0" by the standards of "Gibbs 1.0", then the second coming was pretty much a failure. If "Gibbs 1.0" had not gotten him voted into the HoF, then "Gibbs 2.0" would not have polished his resume in any way; he'd be on the outside looking in for the rest of eternity.

If you measure Gibbs 2.0 by the standard of Steve Spurrier/Norv Turner performances, then "Gibbs 2.0" is a roaring success.

Is the glass half-full? Is the glass half-empty?

Or is the glass twice as big as it needs to be???[/QUOTE]

I agree with the notion of just moving on. But one final question. At the end of the day should Gibbs be measured as Joe Gibbs, or Gibbs 1.0 and Gibbs 2.0?

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Its kinda like when michael jordan came back from retirement to bring the wizards to glory. The game passed him by, all the innovations that he brought to the game had been further innovated, the game had passed him by. It was time for him to step away.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

This is a disturbing, scary thought, but the washpost guys brought it up on comcast a couple weeks back; what is the team gonna be like if Zorn is 1-4 after 5 games? Will they rally behind him or will it be like pettibon's lone season?

The reason I pose the question is that Gibbs may be viewed as a success based on how Zorn does. If Zorn loses badly, it will make Gibbs look good. If Zorn wins a lot, you can point to Gibbs' roster moves, e.g. Campbell. If we don't make the playoffs for a few years, people will look back at Gibbs' years as the last time we made it.

Bottom line, Zorn will have to stay here & win a while to diminish what Gibbs did and make people forget those years.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

I personally believe he left us the legacy JZ, and the fan base is currently enjoying, and is reponsible for the about face, and maturation of Danny, and the VIN

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;464494]I agree with the notion of just moving on. But one final question. At the end of the day should Gibbs be measured as Joe Gibbs, or Gibbs 1.0 and Gibbs 2.0?[/QUOTE]


Good question. He should be measured only as Gibbs 1.0 for the football history books. That his bust sits in Canton is testament enough. However, he should only be measured as Gibbs 2.0 if you're considering how to make this current team a championship caliber team.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Trading up for Jason Campbell will be the centerpiece of the Gibbs 2.0 legacy, and I'm convinced that Campbell will develop into the franchise QB that Gibbs envisioned. While I was critical of Gibbs and conservative playcalling during the 2nd run, he brought stability and maturity to the organization, as reflected by Snyder's more prudent approach during the past two offseasons.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

The fact that JLC saw fit to write what is basically an article on what the old coach did before the new coach has done anything shows to me how much of a hardon he has for poopooing Gibbs. I don't think he is totally wrong is some respects but I think his general attitude towards Gibbs 2.0 is simply skewed far to negatively. He says the team was in the dumps last year and then when Collins comes in and get the offense going and we win 4 straight it is only because of the Defense.

I do wonder where this blog posting came from. It seems to have come out of nowhere for no reason.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

I agree that Gibbs 2.0 was moderate in success. I think people underestimated how far the franchise and roster had fallen before he returned. Expecting Gibbs as great as he was in 1.0 to immediately produce a Super Bowl champion in three years with what he inherited would be like turning Fat Albert into Carl Lewis in three years, a bit too much to expect. I think in trying too hard to do this, Gibbs may have made some big mistakes, Sticking with Brunnell too long, Arch, LLoyd, Ultra-Conservative Offense that neutralized good moves, Campbell, Cooley, the 04 FA class, Taylor and Landry.

The one positive that I think people overlook in Gibbs 2.0 was that he also got us back to playing tough within the division. During Norv, Shotty and Spurrier we let division opponents smack us silly on the road and at home. Gibbs got us playing better within the division both on the road and at home. This is the first key in becoming an elite team.

I think Gibbs 2.0 may parallel what happened with Parcells at Dallas, he may indeed enable the next coach to excel and succeed in what he created as a foundation and left behind.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Now, I love Gibbs--the 3 Superbowls while I was growing up will forever make him one of my all time football heroes. But I think JLac is correct: if it was ANYONE but Gibbs coaching for the last four years, we would not be having this debate. And that indicates that we are not judging Gibbs 2 by football standards; that is, we are not considering how the football team actually played during the last 4 years. We are thinking of RFK rocking, Riggins running, Monk and Clark catching, etc. But that is not the right way to evaluate the last 4 years. Look at what happened on the football field. The team, particularly on offense, was just not that good. And there were too many penalties, turnovers, 3 and outs, failures to protect the lead (how many games did we lose after leading at halftime? Think about it.), failures to manage the clock, failure to get 7 in the red zone, failure to stretch the field reliably, etc. That's not to say it never happened, but not enough to make the teams of the last 4 years good teams. And given that we won lots of our games because of stout D, and that Williams basically had free reign over there, it's hard to look objectively at Gibbs 2 and say it was a success, even a moderate one. And all this is not even taking into account the massive amount of money spent.

I was a stalwart supporter throughout Gibbs 2--I much prefer to accentuate the positive while the season is on (It just makes things feel worse, IMO, if we all start ragging on the team we love). But looking back, it's the memory of Gibbs 1 that comes to mind, and that distorts my view of Gibbs 2. Realistically, it was a failure.

Now, he did get us some good players. But he had some terrible ones in there as well. AA, B Lloyd, the trade for the RB who never played (what was his name again?), and he traded away tons of draft picks. He explicitly said he was going to build in free agency and not the draft. I'm not sure that was good strategy. We can debate this, of course, and there were some great moves, no doubt (Cooley, for example). But was it really so great? Again, if it wasn't Gibbs, what would you think?

I am NOT a Gibbs hater--go back and check my posts, if you want. But I can admit it now in retrospect: Gibbs 2 was a failure.

PS I don't think this is a dead issue. One, JG is done, and we're considering the legacy. When are we supposed to that, during his tenure? Two, we want to have a reasonable yardstick for Zorn. If we hold him to JG 1 standards, he's not long for this team, most likely. If we give him some slack now and build with him (and that means dealing with 6-10 or worse, perhaps), then things look different. So it's a live issue.

(Wow. Long post. Sorry!)

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Smootsmack poses a most interesting question here. I think that Joe Gibbs was deservedly inducted into the Pro Football HoF for what I call "Gibbs 1.0". And Joe Gibbs should be honored for the accomplishments that earned him that place in the HoF.

At the same time, I think fans need to remember Joe Gibbs as an amalgam of "Gibbs 1.0" and "Gibbs 2.0" because of the historical perspective that it puts on the game of pro football. When he brought back many of his former assistants, he and they could not work the same magic. It's not because they somehow turned into a bunch of dunderheads in the intervening years; it's because the game changed and they didn't because most were out of the game for a while.

This is important when you think about the NFL in historical terms and try to evaluate and compare "the way things are now" with "the way things used to be".

I think that an objective view of "Gibbs 1.0" as compared to "Gibbs 2.0" has some important lessons that people ought to think upon.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

As a coach he was relatively bad in his second stint. When we did well, it certainly wasn't his offense that did it. The defense completely run by G Will is what took us places. The defense kept the score low enough that we could win games even with our anemic offense. The clock management skills were just bad -- Christ, he didn't even know the rules of the game. Calling two time outs in his 4th year back? He also stuck with players that didn't give us the best chance to win. Brunell was more or less terrible while in Washington. However, he was a great leader. He's always been a good leader and that's something you don't lose. I couldn't think of a better figure to lead the skins through the Sean Taylor tragedy. I liked Joe Gibbs as a coach every day but Sunday. He was just too conservative for todays NFL.

Now, if we look at him in the team president role, he was very, very good. Spurriers teams were awful from a talent standpoint. Trung Candidate, Shane Matthews, etc. Gibbs came in and made some excellent draft picks and FA signings. I think Gibbs set this team up in a nice position via his player acquisitions, but we need a more adept coach to take us anywhere deep in the playoffs.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;464600]As a coach he was relatively bad in his second stint. When we did well, it certainly wasn't his offense that did it. The defense completely run by G Will is what took us places. The defense kept the score low enough that we could win games even with our anemic offense. The clock management skills were just bad -- Christ, he didn't even know the rules of the game. Calling two time outs in his 4th year back? He also stuck with players that didn't give us the best chance to win. Brunell was more or less terrible while in Washington. However, he was a great leader. He's always been a good leader and that's something you don't lose. I couldn't think of a better figure to lead the skins through the Sean Taylor tragedy. I liked Joe Gibbs as a coach every day but Sunday. He was just too conservative for todays NFL.

Now, if we look at him in the team president role, he was very, very good. Spurriers teams were awful from a talent standpoint. Trung Candidate, Shane Matthews, etc. Gibbs came in and made some excellent draft picks and FA signings. I think Gibbs set this team up in a nice position via his player acquisitions, but we need a more adept coach to take us anywhere deep in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

Was Gibbs involved in the Lloyd/Archuleta signings? If so I think that tarnishes his role as team president.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

His legacy will be drafting Jason Campbell.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[quote=JWsleep;464562]Now, I love Gibbs--the 3 Superbowls while I was growing up will forever make him one of my all time football heroes. But I think JLac is correct: if it was ANYONE but Gibbs coaching for the last four years, we would not be having this debate. And that indicates that we are not judging Gibbs 2 by football standards; that is, we are not considering how the football team actually played during the last 4 years. We are thinking of RFK rocking, Riggins running, Monk and Clark catching, etc. But that is not the right way to evaluate the last 4 years. Look at what happened on the football field. The team, particularly on offense, was just not that good. And there were too many penalties, turnovers, 3 and outs, failures to protect the lead (how many games did we lose after leading at halftime? Think about it.), failures to manage the clock, failure to get 7 in the red zone, failure to stretch the field reliably, etc. That's not to say it never happened, but not enough to make the teams of the last 4 years good teams. And given that we won lots of our games because of stout D, and that Williams basically had free reign over there, it's hard to look objectively at Gibbs 2 and say it was a success, even a moderate one. And all this is not even taking into account the massive amount of money spent.

I was a stalwart supporter throughout Gibbs 2--I much prefer to accentuate the positive while the season is on (It just makes things feel worse, IMO, if we all start ragging on the team we love). But looking back, it's the memory of Gibbs 1 that comes to mind, and that distorts my view of Gibbs 2. [B]Realistically, it was a failure[/B].

Now, he did get us some good players. But he had some terrible ones in there as well. AA, B Lloyd, the trade for the RB who never played (what was his name again?), and he traded away tons of draft picks. He explicitly said he was going to build in free agency and not the draft. I'm not sure that was good strategy. We can debate this, of course, and there were some great moves, no doubt (Cooley, for example). But was it really so great? Again, if it wasn't Gibbs, what would you think?

I am NOT a Gibbs hater--go back and check my posts, if you want. But I can admit it now in retrospect: Gibbs 2 was a failure.

PS I don't think this is a dead issue. One, JG is done, and we're considering the legacy. When are we supposed to that, during his tenure? Two, we want to have a reasonable yardstick for Zorn. If we hold him to JG 1 standards, he's not long for this team, most likely. If we give him some slack now and build with him (and that means dealing with 6-10 or worse, perhaps), then things look different. So it's a live issue.

(Wow. Long post. Sorry!)[/quote]

I don't think people appreciate how disfunctional the redskins had gotten by the end of Spurrier. I was at the last Dallas game in which they were shutout and they literally couldn't get the various personell in and lined up before the playclock expired. They were dreadful.

Also, in the eleven seasons that Gibbs was gone the Redskins went to the playoffs once. Gibbs improved on that by 100% in the four years that followed. In addition think he gave the front office a better perspective on how to run an organization. Lastly, Gibbs brought physicality back to the team. Gibbs didn't win every game but I can't think of a single one in which they were out-hit. Teams around the league thought of the Redskins as soft during his absence - 2001 with Marty being the one exception.

I also think that Greg Williams deserves a lot of credit for the restoration of the defensive culture that some now seem to take for granted. I guess I've been watching long enough to still be a little bit surprised when four or five defenders swarm the ball and actually tackle as oppossed to what was routine in the past - broken tackle after broken tackle.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

How can people talk about Gibbs 2 being a failure? That makes NO sense whatsoever!!!

When Gibbs 1 left he left behind hall of famers Green and Monk. The Hogs, and Clarke should be in too. Hey, possibly Brian Mitchell, who is something like 3rd all time in yardage in the NFL! Not to mention Charles Mann was a damn good pass rusher too! When Gibbs 1 left we were a team. We were a team that no matter if we were getting beat badly by the 49er's in the play offs or getting owned by the Giants in the Championship Game during 1986 or losing our first game to the Cowboys................we were a team that never quit. That never gave up. We were a team that took shit like Buddy Ryan's bodybag comments VERY SERIOUSLY and went back to kick the crap out of them later. We were a team that took care of each other.

When Gibbs came back he got a team that didn't care. Did everyone here forget about Dallas running up the score on us in 2003? Troy Hambrick had 200 yards on the ground against us! Troy Hambrick for Pete's Sake!!! How in the hell do you let someone as bad as him rack up 200 yards! THAT IS BULLSHIT!!! You know our players didn't give a crap about that game. You know they didn't care that we were playing Dallas. For Hambrick to get those yards and for our quarterback to have a zero passer rating; our guys quit. They quit on us and on each other. Smoot said it best when he said, "Half the team didn't show up to play today".

The team also set a franchise record for penalties in one year too!

When Gibbs got back here thats what he had to work with. I won't forget the first thing Gibbs did when he got here. He cut Jeremiah Trotter. He cut him just a few weeks after he got here too. Jeremiah then got picked back up by the Eagles and he immediately said, "I've always bled green". He Got rid of someone that didn't care to be here.

Next up was Champ Bailey. I was at the last game of the 2003 season. My seats are at the Redskins Tunnel and in the second quarter, on the other side of the field, I saw something that nearly made me puke. McNabb threw one of his infamous screens to a running back and then Champ Bailey came up...................and escorted the guy into the end zone. Touchdown Philly! I thought no way! I saw that wrong! They were far away! I missed that play! When I saw the replays later, I knew I had seen it right. Gibbs got rid of his ass! And got someone that is a staple in our offense! GREAT MOVE GIBBS!

Gibbs did a massive overhaul on our roster for the first two years. He was just trying to fix what WAS a very tough and elite franchise in the NFL. He was just trying to get the Redskins back to where they were when he left the first time. He cut Jesse Armstead and brought in Marcus Washington. Cut Iffy Ohalete and brought in Sean Taylor (RIP Sean). Traded Champ Bailey and brought Portis and Shawn Springs. Added Cornelius Griffen to the D-line. It goes on and on. It took him two years to over haul this team.

In his third year here. He had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with. And.............that sucked! He finally gets his team built, but they all get hurt. His last year. He again had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with and then his best player gets murdered. Gibbs wasn't going to lose like that again! He got this team to the play offs.

For those of you that think Gibbs 2 was a failure tell me one other team IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME that lost their starting linebacker, starting cornerback, starting quarterback, two starting offensive lineman and their starting Safety (Gone but not forgotten). Tell me one other team that made the play offs with all of that crap happening to them! Just one!

Gibbs wasn't a failure. He did something that seemed impossible. His team did it. His team never quit. They never gave up. They took care of each other. He's got this team playing hard against Dallas again. Heck, He embarrassed Dallas during their 'Ring of Shame' game. Embarrassed them again last year by holding them to only one rushing yard. This team went down to Minnesota, who was number one in the league against the run, and with back up lineman in there ran the ball effectively. He had this team, who had just come back from burying their friend and teammate beat the crap out of the Bears. Landry jacked up Muhammed too! He must have been angry about something...............And before it was over he went back to the Meadowlands and beat the superbowl champs in their own house. What else can you ask for? What!? A Superbowl? Maybe this year. Lets see if we can stay healthy and see what this team can do. And see what Zorn can do with it. Just don't call Gibbs 2 a failure.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

[QUOTE=Miller101;464636]How can people talk about Gibbs 2 being a failure? That makes NO sense whatsoever!!! They took care of each other. He's got this team playing hard against Dallas again. Heck, He embarrassed Dallas during their 'Ring of Shame' game. Embarrassed them again last year by holding them to only one rushing yard. This team went down to Minnesota, who was number one in the league against the run, and with back up lineman in there ran the ball effectively. [/QUOTE]

Amen to this whole post. I dont care about wins and losses as much as I do about having a hard nosed tough team that has earned respect. That is what Gibbs 2 did for me. He brought back respect to DC.

The worst day for me as a redskin fan was playing at Dallass our Qb got sacked and then dragged by his jersy as the DE strutted to the crowd - and the OL did NOTHING to stop it!!!!. I almost threw up. I was disgusted and pissed.... for years.

No way on earth that happens now. Gibbs for all his faults is one tough SOB who holds himself accountable - that reflected in his team and why I am so happy w/ the Skins again. If you worry about wins and losses then IMHO you are close to a fair weather fan (I am not calling anyone out - do not take offense). As a fan I am much more concerned about the personna of our team: Are we tough, do other teams loath to play us regardless of record? are we classy? Is our house a hard place to play? Answer yes to those 3 questions and I will be happy regardless of record.

That is was LaCalifornia just doesnt get. We arent NY fans or Philthadelphia fans - we are skins fans, stout in the foulest of weather, and populators of the loudest stadium in the NFC East.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

Nice work Miller, and Kope!
I think that if you could get JZ alone, he would echo many of these same sentiments. That he has inherited a "work in progress", unfinished by his predecessor. That he has inherited the building blocks of greatness.

Re: Joe2 Legacy2 will be?
 

2nd stint a bust.