McIntosh & Landry
 

I don't know if anyone else has been watching these two guys closely... but I have for the past few games and man have they been bad/nonexistent.

Yeah they get a couple of tackles... but McIntosh makes poor read after poor read and Chris Horton plays the way Landry was supposed to... and by the way I am LOVING that guy (it blows my mind how well he is playing)

Landy just tries to "blow up" guys contantly, tucking his arms in and just hitting guys instead of wrapping up... and in the pass game, constantly a step late everywhere...

Neither guy is helping us right now and the both just completely have disappeared this year as a whole... I know McIntosh is coming back from injury but so is Rogers...

Anyone else notice?

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

Good eye there. I have noticed the same thing.

Fletcher's play has covered their asses though. Landry is not having quite as good a year as he should be having.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;498189]I don't know if anyone else has been watching these two guys closely... but I have for the past few games and man have they been bad/nonexistent.

Yeah they get a couple of tackles... but McIntosh makes poor read after poor read and Chris Horton plays the way Landry was supposed to... and by the way I am LOVING that guy (it blows my mind how well he is playing)

Landy just tries to "blow up" guys contantly, tucking his arms in and just hitting guys instead of wrapping up... and in the pass game, constantly a step late everywhere...

Neither guy is helping us right now and the both just completely have disappeared this year as a whole... I know McIntosh is coming back from injury but so is Rogers...

Anyone else notice?[/quote]

Truthfully I haven't noticed McIntosh playing bad as much as I have Landry. Seriously, he was the first round pick supposed to start opposite Sean Taylor (RIP, my favorite player) but he hasn't lived up to my expectations. I can't believe he has YET to register a regular season INT halfway through his second season in the NFL. I agree, even Chris Horton has outplayed Landry this season. Hopefully he will step up his game soon though.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

Teams still fear Landry though, which is very valuable. They've just had a lot more success when throwing deep than last year. A lot of that has to do with Blache's blitz packages, which isolate Landry into stricter coverage responsibilities than Grilliams' schemes used to.

No excuses for Mac, the first four games he was an entirely different and more aggressive player than he is now.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

Yeah I have noticed McIntosh doesn't seem to be around the ball as much. He needs to study film on D-Ware and Shawn Merriman and become the next LT (Lawrence Taylor, that is).

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

I'm really finding a hard time bitching about anyone on our D right now that's not up front on the line. If our line play was better we'd probably be the top D in the league. I think Landry has been asked to guard against the deep ball in many situations and does so pretty well, as evident by the lack of big plays against our D. I think whenever our D deviates from leaving him back there in the zone, QBs notice and pick their passes accordingly. Horton plays closer to the line, so you see him more... I did see Landry make a couple of tackles where dude was flat out flying. He's not ST, but he's a good safety.

As far as McIntosh, I think he's a good starting LB, but not a pro bowler YET.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

I was actually thinking about starting a Landry thread about the same thing basically. He's not a playmaker at the FS position. I think he's better suited to be a SS where he can help in run support and get after the QB more. Having him as a FS in coverage most of the time doesn't do much for us because he's not enough of a ballhawk, and if he was, his hands are comparable to Carlos Rogers'. I'm sure someone will say he's been effective in taking away the deep ball. Yeah, maybe, but his playmaking ability is closer to the line of scrimmage where he can get a lot more tackles, force fumbles, and sack the QB. I think we need a real FS.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;498189]I don't know if anyone else has been watching these two guys closely... but I have for the past few games and man have they been bad/nonexistent.

Yeah they get a couple of tackles... but McIntosh makes poor read after poor read and Chris Horton plays the way Landry was supposed to... and by the way I am LOVING that guy (it blows my mind how well he is playing)

Landy just tries to "blow up" guys contantly, tucking his arms in and just hitting guys instead of wrapping up... and in the pass game, constantly a step late everywhere...

Neither guy is helping us right now and the both just completely have disappeared this year as a whole... I know McIntosh is coming back from injury but so is Rogers...

Anyone else notice?[/quote]

Are you kidding me?? I'm not bitching about anyone on our defense.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

See, I [B]way[/B] disagree with the analysis of Landry, I think aside from Rogers and Fletcher he's pretty much the most valuable player on our defense.

Landry is put in position deep in the middle of the field. His range alone is a major deterrent to teams throwing downfield on us. You don't see him making a ton of huge plays because QBs don't give him the opportunity, they don't often throw deep. And because his range and speed are so incredible, that's exactly why the Redskins can move Horton all over the field and put him into position to make plays. Without Landry's speed, Horton would be forced into a much more conservative role.

It's not all about who gets the tackles and makes the plays, it's also about the plays the other team doesn't even try.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=Schneed10;498217]See, I [B]way[/B] disagree with the analysis of Landry, I think aside from Rogers and Fletcher he's pretty much the most valuable player on our defense.

Landry is put in position deep in the middle of the field. His range alone is a major deterrent to teams throwing downfield on us. You don't see him making a ton of huge plays because QBs don't give him the opportunity, they don't often throw deep. And because his range and speed are so incredible, that's exactly why the Redskins can move Horton all over the field and put him into position to make plays. Without Landry's speed, Horton would be forced into a much more conservative role.

It's not all about who gets the tackles and makes the plays, it's also about the plays the other team doesn't even try.[/quote]Good post.

Teams that have tried to go vertical on us have had success against Landry. But the teams that haven't tried outnumber the ones that have 2 to 1.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

I'm with Schneed on this one.

Landry is our safety net, We don't want him to have to make every tackle.
He is going to get the majority of his picks when teams are forced to come from behind.
Unfortunately, The redskins havent had a double digit lead all year.

McIntosh has played strong side linebacker, He is often jamming the TE at the line and then dropping off in coverage or attacking the run. Either way, His first priority is the TE.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=theJBexperience;498213]I was actually thinking about starting a Landry thread about the same thing basically. He's not a playmaker at the FS position. I think he's better suited to be a SS where he can help in run support and get after the QB more. Having him as a FS in coverage most of the time doesn't do much for us because he's not enough of a ballhawk, and if he was, [B]his hands are comparable to Carlos Rogers'[/B]. I'm sure someone will say he's been effective in taking away the deep ball. Yeah, maybe, but his playmaking ability is closer to the line of scrimmage where he can get a lot more tackles, force fumbles, and sack the QB. I think we need a real FS.[/quote]
what?

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

Yeah, we need a real FS like Sean Taylor. =(

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

I dont see it. Landry isn't playing close to the line like Horton, so you are going to see horton making more plays on the RB and shorter passes. Landry is the deep safety roaming the field. He has the speed to cover so much ground it would be silly to have him play as Horton is playing. As far as Rocky goes, remember he is coming off the knee injury, so his speed and explosiveness we have seen may not quite be there. They didn't plan on him coming back until midseason anyway, so the fact that he is out contributing says alot to me. I have seen the guy make plays all season. I think what teams are doing is attacking Marcus more than Rocky. You want to talk about someone not being very productive....lets start with Marcus Washington. The last couple of years have not been very stellar...or marcus washington like. He has been injured, but honestly he is more of a liability to me. He has no speed now, no strength to rush the passer or quickness. He may give us a play or two, but overall....he just isn't all that good anymore.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=EternalEnigma21;498208]I'm really finding a hard time bitching about anyone on our D right now that's not up front on the line. If our line play was better we'd probably be the top D in the league. I think Landry has been asked to guard against the deep ball in many situations and does so pretty well, as evident by the lack of big plays against our D. I think whenever our D deviates from leaving him back there in the zone, QBs notice and pick their passes accordingly. Horton plays closer to the line, so you see him more... I did see Landry make a couple of tackles where dude was flat out flying. He's not ST, but he's a good safety.

As far as McIntosh, I think he's a good starting LB, but not a pro bowler YET.[/quote]

i'm j. spanky and i approve this message

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

I don't agree at all. Our D has been great all season. LL makes virtually every play that comes to him. RM is not a PB yet but has played solidly. Don't understand this thread.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

i hate to admit that rocky's play has left something to be desired. however, he is coming back from a major knee injury and has been playing WELL, though not great. just b/c carlos is back w/ a vengeance already, doesn't make it fair to expect that of rocky right away.

but landry. LANDRY??? our defense's stats would be VERY different if he were not there. the difference in how offenses attacked us would be CLEAR AS DAY.

the fact that you DON'T notice landry is a testament to the success he is having.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=TaylorMade21;498248]Yeah, we need a real FS like Sean Taylor. =([/quote]

Sean Taylor is [COLOR=black]irreplaceable[/COLOR], but to suggest that "we need a real FS" is just plain ignorant. Landry is a top tier free safety. He's had a few miscues, but so did Taylor, early on in his career.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=Southpaw;498274]Sean Taylor is [COLOR=black]irreplaceable[/COLOR], but to suggest that "we need a real FS" is just plain ignorant. Landry is a top tier free safety. He's had a few miscues, but so did Taylor, early on in his career.[/quote]

I wasn't trying to make an ignorant statement. I was more or less just saying how much I miss Sean Taylor. He is irreplaceable, and I think Landry is a great safety. But I think Taylor was the best safety to ever step foot on an NFL thus far.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

NFL field.**

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

The fact that we haven't seem much from landry is (in my mind) a good thing. It means he is doing his job. QBs aren't putting the ball anywhere near him because his coverage is excellent. To talk bad about landry not being seen is just stupid. I hope it stays this way for the rest of the season.

Would you rather see QBs test his coverage? Throw the deep ball near him? Maybe for the fact that he has chances to get interceptions, yes. But, that doesn't happen every time.

Stupid to talk bad about Landry.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

If we saw more of Landry then that means our D-Line, linebackers, corners are not doing their jobs. The quieter he is the better the rest of the team is playing. This thread was started because Landry's been quiet...well can you say #4 ranked defense?

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

Looking though these posts, I'm glad that everyone besides about 3 people understand how the FS position is played.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

I rarely post here but I find it wild how there are so many replaceable players on this team AFTER a loss. How the "preseason star" mentality comes out. No Landry doesn't have a reel of highlights but how many times do you see passes completed and he's there slapping his hands together in disgust ? Rocky has been playing well all year too. Yes he may be caught out of position but WHO ISN'T ? Seriously, this is real life. Not Madden where you can make Demetric Evans the greatest D-Lineman to ever play the game. Guys will make mistakes, but your D isn't rated in the top 10 because it's full of bums. All these players are working and if they weren't getting the job done then the D would be rated a bit lower wouldn't it? Oh yeah, Sean Taylor is gone, STOP comparing Laron to him PLEASE!

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

lol what a stupid thread.... teams go throw near landry bc they are scared. the man is doing his job. He is lurking in the back like sean use to do and when someone does test him it will be an int or someone is getting jacked up. I really dont understand where this thread is coming from. landry is pro bowl caliber

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=TaylorMade21;498248]Yeah, we need a real FS like Sean Taylor. =([/quote]Those don't grow on trees. Taylor was a once a generation talent.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=TaylorMade21;498248]Yeah, we need a real FS like Sean Taylor. =([/quote]

We do. His name is Chris Horton.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=SUNRA;498400]We do. His name is Chris Horton.[/quote]

Lies, Chris Horton is just Sean Taylor reincarnated with dreadlocks!

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=SUNRA;498400]We do. His name is Chris Horton.[/quote]First off, Chris Horton doesn't play FS, and second, he is definitely no Sean Taylor. I love that Horton has solidified the SS position that seemed shaky with Reid Doughty, but that doesn't make him Sean Taylor's equal.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

I have Rocky in fantasy and he was a top ten LB a year ago. His numbers have fallin off. If you notice hes not as balls to the wall as he was last year. I think hes watchin the game more then hes playin it.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=JLW428;498349]Looking though these posts, I'm glad that everyone besides about 3 people understand how the FS position is played.[/quote]

Ain't that the truth! I was reading some of this BS and nearly didn't post, but I thought what the hell.

The FS is the last line of defence. That means he has to cover the deepest threat or backup a CB or cover a designated receiver depending on his responsibility for that play. As some have correctly posted, we haven't had many deep passes against us this year - because he's such a threat. If you look at the Washington catch against Smoot, Landry had man coverage responsibility because of the blitz, hence Smoot was isolated. If you watch that play again you can see how close we got to taking down Leftwich and that's the blitz in a nutshell - when it works you hit them for a big loss, but when it doesn't you run a big risk of a deep ball being completed or a short pass being broken (because you don't have deep coverage).

Landry has roamed sideline to sideline repeatedly this season and provided support to the corners while Horton primarily played run support. How many times have you seen the opposition going underneath or sticking to out patterns to avoid the middle of the field? Answer is a lot of the time. Blache is so confident of Landry, he repeatedly puts 8 in the box and that's why we are so good against the run.

Believe me if we had the Steelers or Titans Dline, we'd be the top ranked D. We have been exposed because QB's get too much time to pass on us. And if we could contain the run with just the front 7 then we'd have a lot more INT's. You think the Titans have a better secondary than us? I'll take Landry and Horton over their two safeties any day, and I'd still pick Carlos over most other CB's in the league based on his overall play this season.

We have one problem on this defence and its called the Dline. If we could fix that right now, this thread wouldn't be here.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;498418]Ain't that the truth! I was reading some of this BS and nearly didn't post, but I thought what the hell.

The FS is the last line of defence. That means he has to cover the deepest threat or backup a CB or cover a designated receiver depending on his responsibility for that play. As some have correctly posted, we haven't had many deep passes against us this year - because he's such a threat. If you look at the Washington catch against Smoot, Landry had man coverage responsibility because of the blitz, hence Smoot was isolated. If you watch that play again you can see how close we got to taking down Leftwich and that's the blitz in a nutshell - when it works you hit them for a big loss, but when it doesn't you run a big risk of a deep ball being completed or a short pass being broken (because you don't have deep coverage).

Landry has roamed sideline to sideline repeatedly this season and provided support to the corners while Horton primarily played run support. How many times have you seen the opposition going underneath or sticking to out patterns to avoid the middle of the field? Answer is a lot of the time. Blache is so confident of Landry, he repeatedly puts 8 in the box and that's why we are so good against the run.

Believe me if we had the Steelers or Titans Dline, we'd be the top ranked D. We have been exposed because QB's get too much time to pass on us. And if we could contain the run with just the front 7 then we'd have a lot more INT's. You think the Titans have a better secondary than us? I'll take Landry and Horton over their two safeties any day, and I'd still pick Carlos over most other CB's in the league based on his overall play this season.

We have one problem on this defence and its called the Dline. If we could fix that right now, this thread wouldn't be here.[/quote]

Well put. Thank you.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

Agree w/ Schneed especially and others that Landry invaluable even though we don't see him on many plays. I'm wondering how many don't follow college ball because Landry was the FS @ LSU and by his senior years offenses were so intimidated there was rarely a long pass thrown against the LSU defense. His being a "step behind" on some plays this year is a result of the nagging injury but... Zorn commented that Landry showed more burst on Monday night than all year. And w/ the extra rest I think LL will be dominant in the last 7 games - probably take some teams by surprise and snatch an INT or two. Only concern w/ him is the injury - was it a 2nd year fluke or is this kid gonna have muscle issues? (The preseason race probably wasn't the best idea)

Rocky concerns me because of Zorn's comments this season. When he feels confident in his body he flies around and makes plays, which we saw pretty consistently in the 1st qtr of the season. Since then he's been less effective, which by Zorn's judgment means Rocky could be a little nicked up or just worried about another catastrophic injury. Like someone else said London has covered Rocky's ass (along w/ 3 or 4 other guys IMO). Anyway, I never figured Rocky would have a long NFL career so if we get another couple years of consistent play from him it's enough for me.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

To all of those who want to speak so thoroughly about their plethora of defensive coordinating and true judge of how well a player plays and speak about how ignorant it is to criticize Landry...

Watch him attempt tackles and tell me it textbook... those of you who can't agree with criticism of him in this area never played football....

Secondly... use arguments backed by facts if you are going to tell other people how stupid they are... Share with us the matrix that says we give up fewer pass plays of 20+ yards than anyone else in football... I checked and we are tied for 7th in the NFL in giving up pass plays of 20+ and tied for 14th in giving up plays of 40+ .... good enough, but definitely not suggesting NO ONE is going for big passing plays against us... if you look at ALL passing matrix, you would be gushing about our CORNERS moreso than Landry...

If teams are throwing underneath like you all say because they are so terrified of Laron Landry, then their completion pcts should be avg/above avg, but we are 4th in this area (only 55%! awesome!)

Look... I'm not a Landry hater. Do I like how he acted this offseason? No. But I am just talking about his play thus far this season... Do I think he a great athlete who has tremendous potential? Yes. I am just not sold on his work ethic (and, therefore results) to this point.

Also... McIntosh is on pace for 80 tackles, 1 sack, and ZERO ints... AND FOUR PASSES DEFENDED. Check for SLBs around the league playing this same position in the 4-3 and tell me he is above average....

I posted because I HAVE been watching them both show up LATE to plays, make misreads, and try and tackle with shoulders and forearms instead of wrapping up.

I just thought it was worth validly discussing... not being lectured on how Laron Landry is better than Ed Reed... lol

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

I have no issues with Landry or McIntosh. The Redskins are a competitive, top ten team.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

Our D is fine guys. Rocky has proven his worth already and knee injuries are the most serious a football player can have, behind concussions. Only weakness to me is theCB depth. Springs is a walking injury, and Carlos isn't that far behind in that department.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=The Goat;498479]Agree w/ Schneed especially and others that Landry invaluable even though we don't see him on many plays. I'm wondering how many don't follow college ball because Landry was the FS @ LSU and by his senior years offenses were so intimidated there was rarely a long pass thrown against the LSU defense. His being a "step behind" on some plays this year is a result of the nagging injury but... Zorn commented that Landry showed more burst on Monday night than all year. And w/ the extra rest I think LL will be dominant in the last 7 games - probably take some teams by surprise and snatch an INT or two. Only concern w/ him is the injury - was it a 2nd year fluke or is this kid gonna have muscle issues? (The preseason race probably wasn't the best idea)

Rocky concerns me because of Zorn's comments this season. When he feels confident in his body he flies around and makes plays, which we saw pretty consistently in the 1st qtr of the season. Since then he's been less effective, which by Zorn's judgment means Rocky could be a little nicked up or just worried about another catastrophic injury. Like someone else said London has covered Rocky's ass (along w/ 3 or 4 other guys IMO). Anyway, I never figured Rocky would have a long NFL career so if we get another couple years of consistent play from him it's enough for me.[/quote]If you are Vinny Cerrato, do you consider not extending McIntosh past his rookie deal because of his knee?

On one hand, we're a youth-starved team that invested a lot to draft Rocky only three years ago. On the other, most of our draft picks in the last few years have been wildly successful, and most of those guys are already going to garner huge deals around the same time: Campbell, Rogers, Cooley (already got his), Landry, Horton, Golston, and maybe Blades.

I'd say, right now, I would give McIntosh the Dockery treatment. Keep him and play him as long as he's under his rookie deal/RFA years, but once he hits UFA, I'd let him walk.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;498189]I don't know if anyone else has been watching these two guys closely... but I have for the past few games and man have they been bad/nonexistent.

Yeah they get a couple of tackles... but McIntosh makes poor read after poor read and Chris Horton plays the way Landry was supposed to... and by the way I am LOVING that guy (it blows my mind how well he is playing)

Landy just tries to "blow up" guys contantly, tucking his arms in and just hitting guys instead of wrapping up... and in the pass game, constantly a step late everywhere...

Neither guy is helping us right now and the both just completely have disappeared this year as a whole... I know McIntosh is coming back from injury but so is Rogers...

Anyone else notice?[/quote]

I've noticed the same thing from Landry. At the end of last season he was on fire during our run. He was making picks and basically causing havoc. This season only thing I remember is him getting trucked by Brandon Jacobs. But the defense overall is playing good.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;498783]To all of those who want to speak so thoroughly about their plethora of defensive coordinating and true judge of how well a player plays and speak about how ignorant it is to criticize Landry...

Watch him attempt tackles and tell me it textbook... those of you who can't agree with criticism of him in this area never played football....

Secondly... use arguments backed by facts if you are going to tell other people how stupid they are... Share with us the matrix that says we give up fewer pass plays of 20+ yards than anyone else in football... I checked and we are tied for 7th in the NFL in giving up pass plays of 20+ and tied for 14th in giving up plays of 40+ .... good enough, but definitely not suggesting NO ONE is going for big passing plays against us... if you look at ALL passing matrix, you would be gushing about our CORNERS moreso than Landry...

If teams are throwing underneath like you all say because they are so terrified of Laron Landry, then their completion pcts should be avg/above avg, but we are 4th in this area (only 55%! awesome!)

Look... I'm not a Landry hater. Do I like how he acted this offseason? No. But I am just talking about his play thus far this season... Do I think he a great athlete who has tremendous potential? Yes. I am just not sold on his work ethic (and, therefore results) to this point.

Also... McIntosh is on pace for 80 tackles, 1 sack, and ZERO ints... AND FOUR PASSES DEFENDED. Check for SLBs around the league playing this same position in the 4-3 and tell me he is above average....

I posted because I HAVE been watching them both show up LATE to plays, make misreads, and try and tackle with shoulders and forearms instead of wrapping up.

I just thought it was worth validly discussing... not being lectured on how Laron Landry is better than Ed Reed... lol[/quote]

First of all - Chill.

If you wanted to creat a great discussion thread, that got alot of people voicing their opinions, you have succeeded.

That said, I'll give it to you that some of Landry's tackles are not fundamental tackles (and I have played football, since you threw that in there too). You are right, statistics should have been brought up before the word stupid was used. Now that you have put the facts up, whats wrong with 7th for 20+? Hell, even 14th for 40+? And, this DOES fall back on the corners more that it does on Landry.

As far as I'm concerned, the only valid argument towards Landry's play thus far is his tackling. He tackles high, and he doesn't wrap up all the time. He is big, but not big enough to drop a shoulder above the waiste on RBs and expect them to drop.

Thats it.

Re: McIntosh & Landry
 

Landry hasn't had a Pro Bowl season, but he is in year 2 of his pro career and year 1 of being a Free Safety. The season is only half over, so he'll have plenty of time to earn his money.

McIntosh is coming off major reconstructive surgery, which may explain why he's a step slow at times. The way he and Carlos Rogers have performed this year is a testament to our training staff.