Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

Everyone complains about our OL. How about our lack of a secondary receiver? I'm sorry but Randle-El just doesn't cut it, neither does James Thrash, Thomas is incosistent due to being a rookie and Kelly... well that's a different story. We need someone to step up and help Moss out.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

Might not be so bad to look into a decent receiver in the off-season. Just 1... ARE is much better as a slot. Not a number 2.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

repost

might wanna give the qb some protection so he could throw it

we could have every receiver in the NFL on the field and none of them would have a good game the way our OL is so leaky

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

I think ARE is decent, but you're right, he's probably more of a #3 than a #2 on most NFL teams. The real problem is the drop off after ARE. Thomas and Thrash are not NFL caliber receivers.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

SF, Randle El has been cutting it ALL year. Did you notice that he wasn't available for the last two drives, and that's why no one was open?

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=LMsexyAO;501550]I think ARE is decent, but you're right, he's probably more of a #3 than a #2 on most NFL teams. The real problem is the drop off after ARE. Thomas and Thrash are not NFL caliber receivers.[/quote]

ARE i thought was brought in to be the third receiver. Remember Brandon Lloyd??

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=GTripp0012;501555]SF, Randle El has been cutting it ALL year. Did you notice that he wasn't available for the last two drives, and that's why no one was open?[/quote]

I think ARE is 50/50; sometimes here's there and sometimes he's dropping the ball.

Moss is pretty much money, barring he's not dropping deep balls (granted, that's not often). But if Moss is 100% and ARE is 50%, we still need a receiver that can be that 75%.

And btw, where the hell is Fred Davis?

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

At this point, I don't want to try to address the 2nd receiver problem again. We already wasted three 2nd rounders. Let's try to revamp our O-line and hope better pass protection will help the passing game.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=WaldSkins;501563]ARE i thought was brought in to be the third receiver. Remember Brandon Lloyd??[/quote]

Haha good point

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

You're def right about a 2nd threat @ receiver S but... I think it's only one of the major problems on offense. What we're witnessing IMHO is a total offensive collapse (over the last 4 games). Dallas is not a great defense, period, and we could not do anything. Like others have said it all starts with the line and ours is evidently not an NFL caliber line. Jansen is an embarrassment to RT everywhere. Rabach looks more weak and indecisive every game. Kendall and Thomas are mediocre. Samuels is having his worst season in many years. Most plays are "busted" within a split second of the snap because of the line. Then it comes down to JC making something happen (because every d is going to key on the running back from now on and dare us to put the ball in the air). Campbell has regressed significantly over the last month, probably in part to the struggles along the line but some of the responsibility rests on his shoulders. Very bad passes to Moss and Ports two weeks ago and then several more very bad decisions tonight. It is clear watching on tv Zorn is to his limit w/ Campbell.

Finally... the receiving corp is pitiful. Absolutely pitiful. The shame here is that the same group was pitiful @ the end of last season, with Keenan and Reche making contributions. Now those guys are gone and what we have is one legit receiver who everyone keys on. Meanwhile, teams all over the NFL are getting huge production from rookie wide outs and TEs. The offense is rotten from the ground up and at some point there has to be some serious analysis (within the franchise) why year after year the production is not there.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=The Goat;501574]You're def right about a 2nd threat @ receiver S but... I think it's only one of the major problems on offense. What we're witnessing IMHO is a total offensive collapse (over the last 4 games). Dallas is not a great defense, period, and we could not do anything. Like others have said it all starts with the line and ours is evidently not an NFL caliber line. Jansen is an embarrassment to RT everywhere. Rabach looks more weak and indecisive every game. Kendall and Thomas are mediocre. Samuels is having his worst season in many years. Most plays are "busted" within a split second of the snap because of the line. Then it comes down to JC making something happen (because every d is going to key on the running back from now on and dare us to put the ball in the air). Campbell has regressed significantly over the last month, probably in part to the struggles along the line but some of the responsibility rests on his shoulders. Very bad passes to Moss and Ports two weeks ago and then several more very bad decisions tonight. [B] It is clear watching on tv Zorn is to his limit w/ Campbell. [/B]

Finally... the receiving corp is pitiful. Absolutely pitiful. The shame here is that the same group was pitiful @ the end of last season, with Keenan and Reche making contributions. Now those guys are gone and what we have is one legit receiver who everyone keys on. Meanwhile, teams all over the NFL are getting huge production from rookie wide outs and TEs. The offense is rotten from the ground up and at some point there has to be some serious analysis (within the franchise) why year after year the production is not there.[/quote]

Good post. Didn't know what you mean by this line though.. Like he's fed up with him? Or he's doing all he can to get positive production out of him and nothing's working?

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=GTripp0012;501555]SF, [B]Randle El has been cutting it ALL year[/B]. Did you notice that he wasn't available for the last two drives, and that's why no one was open?[/quote]


Well, that depends on how you define "cutting it." I'll give you this, Zorn is working him into the gameplan way better than Gibbs ever did.

Before tonight, we were 18th in the league in passing overall, and 25th in the league in terms of passing yardage. So if you mean that Randle El has kept us from being utterly pathetic in the passing game, then you may have a point.

But like I said at the end of last year, Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El as a tandem are not going to win this team any championships. Then again, this offensive line won't help us win [I]another game [/I]if they don't get their act together.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

No depth at WR and no depth on the OL means that you have to rely on your offensive backfield to do everything. And right now, our superstar RB is injured, and our Franchise QB isn't seeing the field as well as he should be (and I think the hits he is taking have a lot to do with how he's seeing the field).

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=Beemnseven;501576]Well, that depends on how you define "cutting it." I'll give you this, Zorn is working him into the gameplan way better that Gibbs ever did.

Before tonight, we were 18th in the league in passing overall, and 25th in the league in terms of passing yardage. So if you mean that Randle El has kept us from being utterly pathetic in the passing game, then you may have a point.

But like I said at the end of last year, Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El as a tandem are not going to win this team any championships.[/quote]Well, coming into tonight, Randle El was catching damn near 80% of what's been thrown at him, and averaging over 9 yards an attempt. His ONLY weakness is that he's not a serious deep threat. It took about 25 games for Al Saunders to figure that out, and since he has, Randle El has been money.

Moss' hands aren't as good as Randle El, but he can run every route on the field and is our only deep threat. I don't count Devin Thomas because 10 games into his career, he can't even line up right.

One thing that no one notices is that the Redskins receivers as a whole are very smart and never really line up out of place. Thomas is a rookie, yes, but you can't teach a sense of the game, which he simply isn't ever going to have.

Devin Thomas will have better games. I don't think he'll ever be dependable.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

Remember how our offense is awesome with Sellers on the field? This isn't a mistake. The only formation that works for us right now is 2 WR, 2 RB, 1 TE, or the "I formation." Sellers at FB is so much more valuable than anything Thrash or Devin Thomas can give us.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

I agree. ARE is not a #2. He's a #3.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;501575]Good post. Didn't know what you mean by this line though.. Like he's fed up with him? Or he's doing all he can to get positive production out of him and nothing's working?[/quote]

You said exactly what I meant - I think Zorn is both fed up and still racking his brain to get better execution. The real clue for me was Zorn remarks about JC after the Pitt game. Very blunt... Jason made bad throws that cost a drive and an INT. My guess is we'll hear more of the same after tonight. Zorn looked furious after our final drive tonight. On 2 plays Campbell made very lousy throws and was not under immediate pressure. In both situations he could have run for yardage or just run to by some time. I just think Zorn expects more out of JC, fairly or unfairly.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=theJBexperience;501566]We already wasted three 2nd rounders. [/quote]

Sad to say, but I agree, but only for this year. With the bad knee on Kelly, maybe we should have just put him on IR. Fred Davis..... Thomas.....

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

Last year, I said that Moss and Randle El weren't shaping up to be the #1 and #2 wideouts that were going to lead us anywhere, but that was with Campbell who hadn't progressed the way he has this year. But that was also with better pass protection up front.

Now, the pass protection has gone to shit, Campbell is progressing nicely and our passing game as a whole still is at the bottom half of the league.

So every year there is a new reason that we cannot mount a decent aerial attack. Maybe it's not the receiver's fault. Either way, Moss and Randle El aren't going anywhere (I don't think), so they'll have another crack at it in 2009.

And man, I hope you're mistaken about Devin Thomas -- though he done absolutely NOTHING to prove you wrong so far.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=The Goat;501584]You said exactly what I meant - I think Zorn is both fed up and still racking his brain to get better execution. The real clue for me was Zorn remarks about JC after the Pitt game. Very blunt... Jason made bad throws that cost a drive and an INT. My guess is we'll hear more of the same after tonight. [B]Zorn looked furious after our final drive tonight. On 2 plays Campbell made very lousy throws and was not under immediate pressure. [/B]In both situations he could have run for yardage or just run to by some time. I just think Zorn expects more out of JC, fairly or unfairly.[/quote]

On the fourth down play to Moss, Portis was wide open underneath, but Campbell was focused on Moss -- who wouldn't have made the 1st down even if he caught it.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=GTripp0012;501579]Well, coming into tonight, Randle El was catching damn near 80% of what's been thrown at him, and averaging over 9 yards an attempt. His ONLY weakness is that he's not a serious deep threat. It took about 25 games for Al Saunders to figure that out, and since he has, Randle El has been money.

Moss' hands aren't as good as Randle El, but he can run every route on the field and is our only deep threat. I don't count Devin Thomas because 10 games into his career, he can't even line up right.

One thing that no one notices is that the Redskins receivers as a whole are very smart and never really line up out of place. Thomas is a rookie, yes, but you can't teach a sense of the game, which he simply isn't ever going to have.

Devin Thomas will have better games. I don't think he'll ever be dependable.[/quote]

Would u go so far to say Thomas is officially a bust or will he make a contribution @ some point?

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

It starts at the line of scrimmage. Our 2nd and 3rd WR's may look better if we could protect Jason. We can't block anybody, and we can't rush the passer. It's so damn annoying.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=GMScud;501592]It starts at the line of scrimmage. Our 2nd and 3rd WR's may look better if we could protect Jason. We can't block anybody, and we can't rush the passer. It's so damn annoying.[/quote]

Yeah, that's the bottom line. Rice and Taylor, Irvin and Harper -- none of those guys in their prime would matter if Campbell has a DLineman in his face before he takes three steps back.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=Beemnseven;501596]Yeah, that's the bottom line. Rice and Taylor, Irvin and Harper -- none of those guys in their prime would matter if Campbell has a DLineman in his face before he takes three steps back.[/quote]

Don't forget JJ Stokes and Tai Streets.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

I couldnt agree more. If JC isnt throwing to Moss then there's nobody else. ARE doesnt do anything. I dont know if he cant get open or JC cant look off Moss to find him when he is open. All I know is that I think teams have discovered that the Skins cant beat them deep often enough to be a threat so they just let the skins play sink & dunk football that may or may not result in a FG.

After all this WR drafting and signing, it amazes me that the skins still only have 1 WR.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

can't see blaming it on not having a number 2 reciever when the qb is running for his life and taking a beating every passing play!

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

ARE and Thrash are good as the #3 WR. Moss should be a shifty border line #1/#2 WR. We need the big wide out. but it does not matter who you put out their if the pass blocking does not give the QB time to get the ball where it needs to be.

Funny I was thinking about Thomas when I woke up today. He's good if he is in a route where he can watch the ball into his hands. He's good on screens, curls, and slants, but if he has a stop and go or just a go route he has trouble locating the ball in the air.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=GMScud;501592]It starts at the line of scrimmage. Our 2nd and 3rd WR's may look better if we could protect Jason. We can't block anybody, and we can't rush the passer. It's so damn annoying.[/quote]
this is a winner. other then that first drive, Campbell pretty much was running for his life. cant throw it, if you cant block it( stealing from Mike Singletary:))

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

People who expect a 2nd WR to solve all our problems are like the people who think an new president suddenly changes everything. One guy doesn't usually make that big of a difference.

It's damn near the entire offensive line, with the exception of Samuels. JC can't hit his 2nd WR if he's got guys in his face all night long.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=Beemnseven;501590]On the fourth down play to Moss, Portis was wide open underneath, but Campbell was focused on Moss -- who wouldn't have made the 1st down even if he caught it.[/quote]

You're exactly right. Campbell needed to look off Moss and find a hot read. It happened a couple times last night. Romo schooled our QB on this front.
Of course, it helped that Romo had a good running game in the second half, too.

Bottom line is our offense is pretty bad at this pont.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=mheisig;501717]People who expect a 2nd WR to solve all our problems are like the people who think an new president suddenly changes everything. One guy doesn't usually make that big of a difference.

It's damn near the entire offensive line, with the exception of Samuels. JC can't hit his 2nd WR if he's got guys in his face all night long.[/quote]

That's pretty much it. Blaming JC and the WRs is just looking at the symptoms of the bigger problem.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

we may have the 4th best defense in the league,but on that final drive last night,it looked like the 32nd best.but when you only give up 14 points,the game should'nt have been this close.

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Did everyone forget that theis is a New Coach, New Sytem, and the team is still learning the system.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

Many of us said in this forum last season that the Skins HAD to upgrade the WR corps. It didn't take much insight to realize that; all it took was watching the games.

That's why many of us were intrigued when the Skins drafted three receivers with their first three picks.

Then Kelly and Thomas showed up for minicamp/OTA/whatever and Zorn promptly tore them a new one because they were not in shape and he did not think they had taken conditioning and learning seriously enough. In training camp, injuries and other things slowed their development. Neither has contributed a pinch of pigeon poop this year. [Before anyone talks about how WRs need time to mature and develop, pls check out Eddie Royal (Broncos) and DeSean Jackson (Eagles)]

Davis - as discussed on another thread - might as well be auditioning for the part of "The Invisible Man". His contributions during practices and meetings may be huge; his contributions during games have been nil.

The Skins' WRs are the same three guys that everyone realized were not good enough last year. Same guys; same results. We should not be surprised about that.

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im not going to pretend to know what the solution to our problems are and dont blame JC but im curious as to if JC is allowed to audible off a play when he sees a blitz is coming?

just seemed like last night, the boys showed blitz a bunch and we never audibled or correctly audibled (except when JC audibled for a 22 yard QB keeper up the middle but that wasnt a blitz audible).

Is part of the problem not having enough blitz read audibles in our work in progress offense? i know they are slow in developing a 2 min offense, are they also slow in installing blitz audibles as well? but i do know that other nfl teams have to take notice that we cant handle the blitz and will continue to do so until we can show that we can pick up the blitz and make them pay for bringing the house.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

It is amazing how good our recieving corps looks when Campbell throws while on his feet rather than laying on his back. Our recievers will probably be ok, and our newbies will acclimate, but no blocking?
NO MATTER

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[quote=firstdown;501794]Did everyone forget that theis is a New Coach, New Sytem, and the team is still learning the system.[/quote]

This is becoming a lame excuse. One of the big reasons we are struggling is because our oline can't pass protect. Everything being 'new' doesn't affect this. We have ignored the oline for years and are paying for in now.

Our dline also needs to be addressed. We need a dominant pass rusher. Someone who commands help and still beats the double team. Our dline doesn't have that. Our blitzs suck because of this.

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=Jake2008;501845]This is becoming a lame excuse. One of the big reasons we are struggling is because our oline can't pass protect. Everything being 'new' doesn't affect this. We have ignored the oline for years and are paying for in now.

Our dline also needs to be addressed. We need a dominant pass rusher. Someone who commands help and still beats the double team. Our dline doesn't have that. Our blitzs suck because of this.[/quote]
It is the same O, and D line that dominated Dallas and Philly a few weeks ago........

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

I didn't see too much of London Fletcher in the Cowboys game. Does anybody know his stats?

Re: Our lack of a secondary receiver is killing us
 

[quote=firstdown;501794]Did everyone forget that theis is a New Coach, New Sytem, and the team is still learning the system.[/quote]

the problem is it,s yet another new coach,new system etc and everyones just tired of the yearly turnover this organization has to deal with now...


yes everything is still new so there,s hope afteral i,m still feelin a bit zorny ..