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redsk1 11-19-2008 02:12 PM

Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
I'm interested to hear what alot of you have to say about the government bailing out GM, who is basically bankrupt, for many different reasons. The reasons start long before any of this housing mess started.

There's pros and cons, like many tough decisions.

Thoughts?

Sorry for the length here but a great article from John Mauldin is below.

[B]Is GM too Big to Let Fail?[/B]

(Let me say at the outset I am truly sorry for those who have lost their jobs or are facing the possibility of a job loss, whether at GM or any other firm. I have been there, as have most people at one time or another.)
I wrote in 2004 that GM was essentially bankrupt. They owed more in pension obligations than it seemed likely they would be able to pay, without major restructuring of the union contracts. I was not alone in such an assessment, although there were not many of us. Now that assessment is common wisdom.
Bloomberg today cites sources that claim a collapse of GM would cost taxpayers $200 billion if the company were forced to liquidate. The projections also called for the loss of "millions" of auto-related jobs. GM, Ford, and Chrysler employ 240,000. They provide healthcare to 2 million, pension benefits to 775,000. Another 5 million jobs are directly related to the three auto companies. GM has 6,000 dealerships which employ 344,000 people. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research (CAR), if the domestic automakers cut output and employment by 50 percent, nearly 2.5 million jobs would be lost and governments would lose $108 billion in revenue over three years. (Edd Snyder at Roadtrip blog)
How did we get to a place where the market cap of GM is a mere $1.8 billion and its stock price has dropped from $87 in early 1999 to $3.10 today? (See chart below.) Where Rod Lache of Deutsche Bank has a "price target" of zero for GM? "Even if GM succeeds in averting a bankruptcy, we believe that the company's future path is likely to be bankruptcy-like," Lache wrote.
The litany of reasons is long. At the top of the list are union contracts which mandate high costs and pension plans which cannot be met. Then there is the problem of many years of poorly designed cars, although they are now getting their act together. We can also discuss poor management and bloated costs, like paying multiple thousands of workers who are not actually working. GM is structured for the 50% market share they used to command, whereas now they only have 20%.
Wilbur Ross, a well-known multi-billionaire investor, was on CNBC saying that allowing GM to go bankrupt would throw the country into what sounded like a depression. Of course, he does have an auto parts company which supplies GM; so he, as my Dad would say, does have a dog in that hunt.
Ross said that we as a nation are to blame for GM's problems (I am not making this up) because we do not have a national industrial policy. The US allowed other automotive companies to build plants in states that had lower labor costs, and that is the reason GM is uncompetitive. GM pays an average of $33 an hour, and those selfish other companies pay a mere $19 plus a host of benefits.
Ross evidently believes that because some states have lower taxes and right to work laws, that it is the responsibility of the taxpayer to give GM a certain type of immortality rather than suggest GM deal with its problems directly. I assume that Ross also sides with the French when they suggest that Ireland should raise taxes so they will not have to compete with Ireland for business. Such thinking is nonsense and is also unconstitutional.
Let's all acknowledge that having GM go bankrupt would not be a good thing. But it is not the end of the US automotive industry, nor even of GM. Let's think about what a GM bankruptcy might look like. In a bankruptcy, the debt holders line up to come up with a restructuring plan so that they can maximize the return of their loans or obligations. The shareholders get wiped out, but with GM down over 95%, that has largely been accomplished. That process has happened with airlines, steel companies, and tens of thousand of other companies. It is called creative destruction.
First, let's understand that the real owners of GM are the pension plans, as I wrote in 2004. They are the entities with the largest obligations and the most to lose. They are the biggest stakeholders in a successful GM. Giving them the responsibility for making a new, leaner, meaner GM with realistic union contracts would be rational; otherwise they would lose most of what they have.
Factories need to be closed. Auto sales are down to 11 million cars a year, the lowest since 1982, which was the last major recession. Automotive companies sold cars at such low prices in the last few years that sales went to 16 million a year. But the cars that have been sold will last for a long time. Few people are going to buy a new car when the old one is working fine, especially in a recession and a Muddle Through economy. Further, does GM really need eight automotive lines, some of which have been losing money for years?
A restructured GM with realistic costs could be quite competitive. They have some great cars. I drive one. It is four years old and so good I am likely to drive it for at least another four.
At some point after the restructuring, the pension plans could float the stock on the market and get some real value. If actual pensions need to be adjusted, then so be it. While that is sad for the GM pensioners, is it any sadder than for Delta or United Airlines or steel company pensioners who saw their benefits go down? For the vast majority of Americans, no one guarantees their full retirement. Why should auto trade unions be any different?
Taxpayers in one form or another are going to have to pay something. Unemployment costs, increased contributions to the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation, job training, relocation, and other costs will be borne. So, it is in our interest to get involved so as to minimize our costs, as well as help preserve as many jobs as possible.
Sadly, I think it is likely that a Democratic majority next year will quickly pass a bailout that will not solve any of the longer-term problems. Obama evidently wants to appoint an "automotive czar;" and the name being floated is the very liberal Michigan former Representative David Bonior, whose anti-trade and pro-union positions are well known. This is appointing the fox to guard the hen house. It is not a recipe for the restructuring that is needed.
The bailout for GM is a bailout for the trade unions and management (who not coincidentally both made large contributions to the Democratic Party and candidates). US consumers are simply going to buy fewer cars in the future. That is a fact. Spending $50 billion does not address that reality. That $50 billion can be better spent by helping workers who lose their jobs. Without serious reforms a bailout will simply postpone the problem, and there will be a need for more money in a few years. And do we think that the management which got GM into the current mess is the group to bring them out?
And as to the argument that "We bailed out Wall Street, so why not GM?" it doesn't hold water. What we did and are doing is to try and keep the financial system functioning, so we don't see the world economy simply shut down. But don't tell the 125,000 people who have lost jobs on Wall Street that it was a bailout. That number is likely to go to 200,000. No one thinks that a restructured GM would see anywhere close to half that number of job losses.
Do we protect Circuit City? Sun just announced plans to lay off 6,000 workers. Where is their bailout? Citibank announced 10,000 further job cuts today. This is a recession. And sadly that means a lot of jobs are going to be lost. GM workers should have no more right to their jobs than a Sun or Citibank or Circuit City worker.
Now, would I be opposed to a bridge loan to help in the transition? No, because a viable Detroit is good for the country and will cost the taxpayer less in the long run than if we have to pick up their pension benefits. But any money must come with realistic reforms that put in charge new management and a realistic cost structure so GM can compete.

Daseal 11-19-2008 02:30 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
I'm completely against bailing out GM. It obviously sucks for those who are employed by GM (past and present). The housing collapse I understood, although I think the government should have been a bit stricter with the banks (seizing useful assets until the banks can pay them back.) However, that meant normal Americans that did nothing wrong except getting accepted for a loan were going to lose their homes. In this case, it's a private company that has made a sub-par item for years, and they have been dominated by other companies. Is this country based on capitalism or not? GM isn't cutting the mustard. Sorry. Goodbye.

redsk1 11-19-2008 02:35 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=Daseal;502343]I'm completely against bailing out GM. It obviously sucks for those who are employed by GM (past and present). The housing collapse I understood, although I think the government should have been a bit stricter with the banks (seizing useful assets until the banks can pay them back.) However, that meant normal Americans that did nothing wrong except getting accepted for a loan were going to lose their homes. In this case, it's a private company that has made a sub-par item for years, and they have been dominated by other companies. Is this country based on capitalism or not? GM isn't cutting the mustard. Sorry. Goodbye.[/quote]

FWIW, I tend to agree. It's going to hurt, but the gov't can't bailout everyone. If GM was stroked a big check, they'd be coming back for more down the road. It's sad, but like the article sais, there are reasons GM is virtually bankrupt.

Daseal 11-19-2008 02:36 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
Yeah. It's not like our government is sporting a surplus either. Everything is rough right now. Not like this will keep Americans from buying a car.

dmek25 11-19-2008 03:27 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
roughly 3.8 million Americans will lose their jobs if the big 3 collapse. we are talking about a depression, not a recession. something has to be done. im not sure what, but something

firstdown 11-19-2008 03:50 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=dmek25;502352]roughly 3.8 million Americans will lose their jobs if the big 3 collapse. we are talking about a depression, not a recession. something has to be done. im not sure what, but something[/quote]

I agree with you and its also a matter of defense. If we had to go to war who would make our tanks, jeeps, etc... to support our troops.

12thMan 11-19-2008 04:16 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
In less troubling econmic times, I think you let GM ride this one out like the airlines industry did post 9-11, and have continued to do since then.

I'm not sure we have that luxery to play hard ball with the auto industry. There is way too much at stake here. If GM fails consumer confidence will be in the toilet for a long, long time. The impact of losing nearly 4 million jobs can't even be fathomed.

Our choices are bad and worse when it comes to the big three. One thing's for sure, as a part of any potential bailout, the CEO's have to go. Period.

Slingin Sammy 33 11-19-2008 04:56 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
In the hearings today a Sen. from Tennessee asked one of the CEOs that if the Gov't gave them the money would they promise not to come back later looking for more. The CEO gave a BS answer about the economy. The Big 3 were hemorraging money before the recent downturn so that argument is pure BS.

Let them go into Chapter 11, they all have ridiculous labor costs, retirement costs, real estate costs, and other poorly structured overhead costs that $ 25B won't fix. All this needs to be restructured so the Big 3 can move forward into 2010 and compete on a level playing field with Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc. (Who BTW all have major plants throughout the SE US and are profitable).

The 3-4M jobs won't be lost, some may, and all the union jobs will either pay less or have benefit changes to be in line with autoworkers in other parts of the country. The UAW is a major part of this problem and their members have benefited in a BIG way over the last 30-40 years. The restructure will also allow limits to be set on executive compensation so the failed CEOs and other executives won't have golden parachutes.

EternalEnigma21 11-19-2008 05:06 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
the whole thing needs to be restructured. a bail out would not solve their problems. The management structure is the issue... not the labor, but they continue to attack the labor, as if they cannot pay them and still be competitive.

Also, going chapter 11 won't mean they will cease to exist. They will close a few plants, but they've been doing that for years claiming they cannot remain competitive paying american labor rates (meanwhile companies like toyota are opening new plants in the us every couple of years) Without demanding a complete revamping of management I would not give them a dime.... but then if government starts controlling businesses in exchange for tbills we have something other than capitalism don't we?

American auto manufacturers have been taking this country for a ride for years, lobbying to just keep competition out or more expensive than their cars and not paying attention to what its customers want, and that is a quality product and great customer service. I've worked for GM, Ford, and Toyota and BY FAR toyota was the most concerned with these things.

also, i thought it was funny that all 3 CEOs took private jets (separate of course) on the 45 minute flight from detroit to DC... on an average cost of over $20k/flight, to beg congress for money because they're broke.

dmek25 11-19-2008 05:09 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
that seems fair. the C.E.O' s that ran those companies into this financial mess walk away with their money, and lets penalize the every day workers. those union workers have already made a ton of concessions to try and right the ship. i think your looking at the wrong end of the issue

dmek25 11-19-2008 05:11 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=EternalEnigma21;502371]the whole thing needs to be restructured. a bail out would not solve their problems. [B]The management[/B] [B]structure is the issue[/B]... [B]not the labor[/B], [B]but they continue to attack the labor[/B], as if they cannot pay them and still be competitive.

Also, going chapter 11 won't mean they will cease to exist. They will close a few plants, but they've been doing that for years claiming they cannot remain competitive paying american labor rates (meanwhile companies like toyota are opening new plants in the us every couple of years) Without demanding a complete revamping of management I would not give them a dime.... but then if government starts controlling businesses in exchange for tbills we have something other than capitalism don't we?

American auto manufacturers have been taking this country for a ride for years, lobbying to just keep competition out or more expensive than their cars and not paying attention to what its customers want, and that is a quality product and great customer service. I've worked for GM, Ford, and Toyota and BY FAR toyota was the most concerned with these things.

also, i thought it was funny that all 3 CEOs took private jets (separate of course) on the 45 minute flight from detroit to DC... on an average cost of over $20k/flight, to beg congress for money because they're broke.[/quote]
good post

firstdown 11-19-2008 05:16 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=dmek25;502372]that seems fair. the C.E.O' s that ran those companies into this financial mess walk away with their money, and lets penalize the every day workers. those union workers have already made a ton of concessions to try and right the ship. i think your looking at the wrong end of the issue[/quote]

What concessions have the unions made?

Daseal 11-19-2008 06:33 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote]I agree with you and its also a matter of defense. If we had to go to war who would make our tanks, jeeps, etc... to support our troops.[/quote]

Boeing, Lockheed, Rolls Royce, etc. There are tons of companies that could take over those duties. Boeing and Rolls Royce already make huge amounts of vehicles for the government. I know it's shocking, but we could also stop sticking our nose in everyone elses business until we get our own country straight.

saden1 11-19-2008 06:43 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
Blame everything on the unions...I have never bought an American car, if you're going to blame the unions might as well blame me as well. People act like the unions want to see these companies go out of business...like they're not willing to concede perks such as having union members flown on [URL="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=6285739&page=1"]private jets[/URL].

Certainly the unions can do things better but lets not act like they're to blame for all that is ill in Detroit. When they're selling cars and making money everything is great, when they're not it's blame the union time. What's really killing these companies are 1) bad product, 2) health care costs, 3) the completion.

saden1 11-19-2008 06:43 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=firstdown;502375]What concessions have the unions made?[/quote]


This [URL="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14715890"]one[/URL].

Slingin Sammy 33 11-19-2008 09:25 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=saden1;502384]Blame everything on the unions...I have never bought an American car, if you're going to blame the unions might as well blame me as well. People act like the unions want to see these companies go out of business...like they're not willing to concede perks such as having union members flown on [URL="http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=6285739&page=1"]private jets[/URL].

Certainly the unions can do things better but lets not act like they're to blame for all that is ill in Detroit. When they're selling cars and making money everything is great, when they're not it's blame the union time. What's really killing these companies are 1) bad product, 2) health care costs, 3) the completion.[/quote]
Certainly the unions are not the only ones to blame, but they have played a major part in this problem. A $ 25 per hour disparity from Detroit to competitors in labor costs are largely the unions doing. If you read the very bottom of the article you linked to one of the last paragraphs sums up the union's blame pretty good.

Health care costs outside of things negotiated by the union are not an issue, as Toyota, Honda etc. have the same health care overhead with their US plants. Product and competition play a large role, as well as incredible mismanagement and executive compensation that is way out of line. If I was in Congress and found out these CEOs came to beg for $ 25B but were stupid enough to fly in on $ 20K per flight private jets, I would pull the rug on any bail-out on that principle alone.

Restructure under bankruptcy and independent oversight (negotiated hopefully, if not court-appointed) seems like the best way out. $25B is just a band-aid on a severed artery IMO.

firstdown 11-19-2008 10:05 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
I've never said the unions where the total blame but they have driven the cost of American cars way up. Here is a quote from your link "That could be a big help for a company that spends upwards of $70 an hour on wages and benefits for janitors." Janitors making $70.00 an hour PLUS benifits. Thats just one example. Yes, the CEO's need to go if the federal gov gives them thes loan but that will not happen.

JoeRedskin 11-19-2008 10:46 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=firstdown;502406]I've never said the unions where the total blame but they have driven the cost of American cars way up. Here is a quote from your link "That could be a big help for a company that spends upwards of $70 an hour on wages and benefits for janitors." [B]Janitors making $70.00 an hour PLUS benifits. Thats just one example.[/B] Yes, the CEO's need to go if the federal gov gives them thes loan but that will not happen.[/quote]

The way I read it - The janitors don't make 70.00/hour plus benefits - the cost to the company of salary, benefits, and taxes for a janitor is 70.00/hour. A 70/hour wage works out to roughly 140k a year salary. Pretty sure that's not the case.

Still, you figure that the actual wage is somewhere in the 30 - 40 bucks an hour. Damn good pay for a janitor.

EternalEnigma21 11-20-2008 06:51 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
The labor rates given to the UAW workers directly reflect the problem. If you think for one minute that the management is going to negotiate to overpay the grunts and take home only a fair amount of earnings for themselves you're crazy... And half those guys don't do anything to help the company.

redsk1 11-20-2008 09:14 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=JoeRedskin;502417]The way I read it - The janitors don't make 70.00/hour plus benefits - the cost to the company of salary, benefits, and taxes for a janitor is 70.00/hour. A 70/hour wage works out to roughly 140k a year salary. Pretty sure that's not the case.

Still, you figure that the actual wage is somewhere in the 30 - 40 bucks an hour. Damn good pay for a janitor.[/quote]

GM pays an average of $33 an hour, and those selfish other companies pay a mere $19 plus a host of benefits.

From the beginning article. That's $14 more an hour vs their competition per employee on average. That's one of the reasons.

Monkeydad 11-20-2008 09:43 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
No.

Bankruptcy will actually benefit the companies because they can restructure everything and if they have brains, eliminate the Union(s).

Unions are the problem. They are no longer necessary because the Government has put so many regulations about working conditions, fair hiring and even a minimum wage (although auto workers will be making far more than that).

They're turned into a way to fight for fairness for employees to a political machine that in itself is a business trying to get rich for themselves. They protect bad workers and prevent companies from hiring or even affording good workers.

cpayne5 11-20-2008 09:51 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
Angus MacKenzie, editor of Motor Trend, had a wonderful editorial in the December issue articulating the case for bailing out the big three. I don't think there is an electronic version, so you should check out the print version if the opportunity presents itself. [URL="http://blogs.motortrend.com/6350673/editorial/fixing-detroit-of-course-its-easy/index.html"]Here[/URL] is a blog entry of his that touches on some of the same points, but is not as polished as the one appearing in the magazine.

firstdown 11-20-2008 10:04 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=Buster;502472]No.

Bankruptcy will actually benefit the companies because they can restructure everything and if they have brains, eliminate the Union(s).

Unions are the problem. They are no longer necessary because the Government has put so many regulations about working conditions, fair hiring and even a minimum wage (although auto workers will be making far more than that).

They're turned into a way to fight for fairness for employees to a political machine that in itself is a business trying to get rich for themselves. They protect bad workers and prevent companies from hiring or even affording good workers.[/quote]
I had a budy who worked for Ford and there was a running joke that if you need a two week paid vacation fail a drug test. If you failed they sent Fl. for two weeks to rehab.

firstdown 11-20-2008 10:12 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
Ok, I read that again and a janitor cost them $70 an hour total cost but thats still around $150,000 just for a janitor. I'm not knocking the job or that a person is making that much but those kind of cost are going to drain any company. I also do not give the CEO's any slack either and even though they are way over paid alot of that comp. comes in a form of a stock bonus which is not looking to goo right now.

FRPLG 11-20-2008 10:41 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=cpayne5;502473]Angus MacKenzie, editor of Motor Trend, had a wonderful editorial in the December issue articulating the case for bailing out the big three. I don't think there is an electronic version, so you should check out the print version if the opportunity presents itself. [URL="http://blogs.motortrend.com/6350673/editorial/fixing-detroit-of-course-its-easy/index.html"]Here[/URL] is a blog entry of his that touches on some of the same points, but is not as polished as the one appearing in the magazine.[/quote]

Wow, someone who actually knows what he is talking about. I don't know enough to argue with anything he said at all. But it all sounds pretty reasonable to me.

dmek25 11-20-2008 11:17 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=Buster;502472]No.

Bankruptcy will actually benefit the companies because they can restructure everything and if they have brains, eliminate the Union(s).

[B]Unions are the problem[/B]. [B]They are no longer necessary[/B] because the Government has put so many regulations about working conditions, fair hiring and even a minimum wage (although auto workers will be making far more than that).

They're turned into a way to fight for fairness for employees to a political machine that in itself is a business trying to get rich for themselves. They protect bad workers and prevent companies from hiring or even affording good workers.[/quote]
this is as about an uneducated post that i have ever read around here. your saying that the government will take care of these auto workers? the place i work at could definitely use a union. they make millions upon millions, cut jobs, add more and more responsibility to the remaining work force. they raise our health care co payments every year. meanwhile, the C.E.O's still receive their multi million dollar bonuses. on top of that, their stock options. does this seem fair to you buster? my average raise has been about 2% over the last 5 years. with my benefits costing me more, its like no raise at all

70Chip 11-20-2008 01:54 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
The bailout isn't for the companies. Companies can go into bankruptcy and come out the other side in much better shape. The bailout is for the Union. That's why a better strategy for the CEOs would be to say, "We don't need your money". [I]They should be threatening to file bankruptcy. [/I] Call the Democratic bluff. Pelosi and Reid will still be desperate to give them a fat pile of cash anyways because the UAW needs it far worse than the executives do. I'm forever amazed at how politically hopeless these CEOs are, though. It's not surprising that we are in the shape we are.

firstdown 11-20-2008 04:18 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=dmek25;502488]this is as about an uneducated post that i have ever read around here. your saying that the government will take care of these auto workers? the place i work at could definitely use a union. they make millions upon millions, cut jobs, add more and more responsibility to the remaining work force. they raise our health care co payments every year. meanwhile, the C.E.O's still receive their multi million dollar bonuses. on top of that, their stock options. does this seem fair to you buster? my average raise has been about 2% over the last 5 years. with my benefits costing me more, its like no raise at all[/quote]
Sounds like your lucky to have an employer who pays your health ins. I pay $7,968 a year for health insurance and that does not include deductables or co-pays. I'm not complaining but I think people do not realize the cost to business to provide this coverage.

dmek25 11-20-2008 04:38 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
i understand this completely. but my company set an unrealistic goal of 13% return on capital. 4 years in a row we exceeded it. this year, to date, we are at 11%. in today's turmoil, this is outstanding. we have proved we can flourish in today's market, but my raises are always 2%. how fair is this?

firstdown 11-20-2008 04:46 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=dmek25;502552]i understand this completely. but my company set an unrealistic goal of 13% return on capital. 4 years in a row we exceeded it. this year, to date, we are at 11%. in today's turmoil, this is outstanding. we have proved we can flourish in today's market, but my raises are always 2%. how fair is this?[/quote]
Well first off if they set a goal and you guys reached the goal then it was not unrealistic. LOL I don't have time to reply because I have a meeting but will. Take care.

Dirtbag59 11-20-2008 05:23 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
I notice a lot of people on this thread are defending the unions in Detroit and complaining about how the blame should rest on management. Being the centerist I am I think it's fair to say that management has dropped the ball and is in part to blame, I mean hell, one of the Big 3 employed Matt Millen for how many years? However that doesn't expalin the fact that automakers with plants in the south are doing very well for themselves in terms of providing jobs as well as effective management.

The south is a lot of things that I despise, but in retrospect two things they seem to have right are warm weather and non-unionized auto plants, oh and affordable housing (for example a $300,000 house in Georgia cost over a $1,000,000 in California). Obviously now the southern auto plants aren't immune to the recession but last I checked companies like Toyota and BMW aren't flying to Washington in private jets begging for $25 billion from the federal government. Then again does anyone know whats going on in Japan and Germany?

Honestly though six figures for working on an assembly line is madness. Unions already have crippled the airline industry and I'll be damned if they get a hold of the auto industry as well. Plus now they're (unions) hoping to get a petition like ballot where they can send in votes for a certain politician which pretty much goes against everything America is suppose to stand for. I mean imagine if you don't sign the petition and you're part of a union?

We're past the days were companies would pay 5 cents a day to overworked employees. The government has regulations in place to protect workers. People frequently complain about companies outsourcing but the truth is the unions in respective industries made the cost of hiring people in America to much to be competitive. As a result the companies that could, choose to outsource (obvisouly airlines can't outsource) and now those jobs are never coming back.

EternalEnigma21 11-20-2008 06:04 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=Dirtbag359;502557]
We're past the days were companies would pay 5 cents a day to overworked employees. The government has regulations in place to protect workers. People frequently complain about companies outsourcing but the truth is the unions in respective industries made the cost of hiring people in America to much to be competitive. As a result the companies that could, choose to outsource (obvisouly airlines can't outsource) and now those jobs are never coming back.[/quote]


not all unions are the same. Minimum wage hasn't changed much in the last 10-15 years... or since I've been in the workforce. A strong middle class is the backbone of a strong economy. Every day companies underpay for labor. We have a huge problem with wages paid out for labor not being re circulated within our country. Legal and illegal immigrants who are only here to make a wage are sending their pay overseas where the money they earn is very strong in a weak economy. There has been a lot of talk about doing something, but I can't even go to certain gas stations in my town without "day laborers" jumping in the back of my goddamn pickup truck. They live 30 deep in motel rooms and cheap housing, not worrying about buying cars here or otherwise stimulating our economy, and they don't worry about the quality of life they have here because their families are doing well in their homeland. I cannot blame these people, but if they arent moving their families here and staying here, they shouldn't be allowed to come here to work. These people are glad to take the labor jobs that don't require formal education, and employers are glad to get skilled labor dirt cheap and pay NO benefits.

On the other end of the spectrum you have unions who abuse the legal power they have over the companies they supply labor for. Fundamentally unions are both a good idea and neccessary, but unrealistic on their demands. They are bureaucratic entities whose only responsibility is to themselves. Both sides are guilty of taking all that they can, and the Govt. is guilty of not reasonably stepping in and mediating fair labor laws that support an economy set in a direction of growth. These problems have been a long time coming, and this did not start with the housing market crashing, or even the dotcom crash.... The housing market boom was a farce from the get-go, and the govt allowed that to happen as well. They could have raised the fed and capital gains as housing prices spun out of control and they would have curtailed much of the problem and made money in the process. I can only speculate as to why this didn't happen... but it doesn't matter.

Our economic governmental tweaks need to be re-tweaked. Nothing really overhauled, just a few adjustents and some time.

FRPLG 11-20-2008 09:17 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=EternalEnigma21;502561]Our economic governmental tweaks need to be re-tweaked. Nothing really overhauled, just a few adjustents and some time.[/quote]

or maybe they need to start tweaking less. Seems to me a lot of our problems are born out of gov't trying to affect markets. It isn't all THAT simple but it is hard to argue the gov't has done a good job of ever positively affecting the economy with policies meant to make things better. Usually the policies cost us in the long run. There is always a trade-off and often it is a big bad one coming down the tracks that we can't quite see.

EternalEnigma21 12-03-2008 07:44 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
So the Big 3 execs are back. This time they're asking for 34B instead of 25B. This time they drove in and are saying they'll work for a buck next year.

This is getting sad. There are many industries that have had to go through what they are headed for. The airline industry, for a recent example. The bail-out is only a band-aid solution. Its funny that 2 weeks later they come in asking for $11B more.

JoeRedskin 12-03-2008 09:14 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
I hope to God everyone is seeing through this "Work for a buck" thing - "Okay, I will work for a buck, keep all my company perks, receive stock payments and a bonus based on undefined terms paid at my board's discretion."

Make no mistake about it, they will still be paid like kings only this time the money will come from you and me.

Sorry, if these guys want my tax money, I want it to go to R&D, restoring profitability and saving jobs. Before they get my money, their boards should be required to inform us [I]exactly[/I] how these failed executives will be compensated including: 1) all company funds spent on providing them transportation, junkets, etc. (essentially anything the company pays for that they use or gain the benefit from, or is ostensibly intended to increase their profitablity to the company); 2) any bonuses for which they may be eligible, the cap on the bonuses and the specific standards that must be achieved to attain those bonuses; 3) Any stock or other ownership interest being transferred to the executive.

To me, this is the bare minimum these execs and their boards must do [I]before[/I] they start telling me how they will change their company's structure to increase profitablity.

JoeRedskin 12-03-2008 09:14 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
Dear God, I am becoming a socialist.

saden1 12-03-2008 11:51 AM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
[quote=JoeRedskin;506857]Dear God, I am becoming a socialist.[/quote]

Progress is a good thing :cool-smil

dmek25 12-03-2008 03:47 PM

Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?
 
these guys are morons. the first plan i looked at said that with part of the turn around, they would have to cut around 20,000 jobs. in my eyes, the only reason to help them at all is to keep Americans working. i say bail them out, and get rid of all 3 C.E.O's


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