ATTNER: 'Skins still throwing money away
 

ATTNER: 'Skins still throwing money away

Paul Attner


At least Joe Gibbs knows first hand now what it means to work for Dan Snyder, the free spender. Give him a wish list of players, stand aside and watch Snyder unload dollars and draft picks as if both were endless. What's shocking is that Gibbs' enormous presence has not brought more sanity to what is happening in Washington.

The Redskins, notorious overpayers for talent, have done it again. The contracts for Clinton Portis and Mark Brunell are way over-market, to the point where the team seems to be bidding against itself needlessly. And to toss in a second-round draft choice to accompany Champ Bailey to the Broncos is beyond anything rational.

Cornerbacks of Bailey's talent are rare, much rarer than even a runner of Portis' qualities. This easily could have been a straight player-for-player deal. But the Broncos don't need Christmas; they've already gotten their No. 1 gift with that second-round pick.

Nor does rewarding Brunell with his impressive contract represent a wise use of the salary cap. Many league personnel directors question whether Brunell still has starting quarterback abilities. Ever since his serious knee injury, he's never regained his former quality of play, particularly his mobility. They think he is incapable of winning consistently anymore if he is limited to being a pocket passer.

Yet the Redskins rewarded him with a most generous contract, worthy of a quarterback nearing or in his prime, not on the downside of his career.

Gibbs is more secure now with a veteran quarterback on his roster as a starting alternative. But it is risky to think Brunell fulfills his needs. But Gibbs, so long absent from the NFL, can't possibly know league personnel well enough yet to make proper evaluations.

He has to rely on the Redskins' personnel department, headed by Vinny Cerrato, for significant advice, just as he once relied on Bobby Beathard and Charley Casserly. Considering Washington's mediocre talent decisions during the Snyder regime, Gibbs may regret a lot of what is happening with this latest remake of the team's roster.


Senior writer Paul Attner covers the NFL for Sporting News. Email him at [email]attner@sportingnews.com[/email].

[url]www.foxsports.com/content...Id=2201106[/url]

that has to be one of the biggest piles of crap I've heard in a long time. Gibb's not being able to scout players anymore and having to learn it again? Even when he left for nascar, he was keeping an eye on the nfl. and I'm sorry but after he's done what he was with what he had, I will not doubt his choices especially relating to QB's.

People seem to forget that Gibbs was involved with the Falcons the past two years. I'm sure he noticed what happened when they had to go to their backup last year. Two quarterbacks is key. Gibbs' track record with QBs speaks for itself

Attner also acts like Gibbs assistant coaches have been in a coma during Gibbs hiatus and have had no input in the signings.

very original take

kudos to attner for some great original thought

Wow Attner, dont hurt yourself getting on the bandwagon...

'skins Criticized (again) For Turd Haul
 

Profootballtalk editor Mike Florio

POSTED 2:21 p.m. EST, March 5, 2004

'SKINS CRITICIZED (AGAIN) FOR TURD HAUL

League insiders are engaged in their annual buzz-fest regarding the early free-agent signings made by the Redskins.

Per one source, owner Dan Snyder is "playing the system like fantasy football again, overpaying and not caring about character."

The source describes defensive end Phillip Daniels and cornerback Shawn Springs as "two turds in the locker room. They'll have [coach Joe] Gibbs wishing he was playing with a lube gun again by November."

Though no one ever will accuse us for being shills for the 'Skins, we're intrigued by the question of whether Gibbs will be able to polish these and other turds. Gibbs won in the 1980s with guys like Dexter Manley on the roster, and our guess is that John Riggins had his moments, too.

Our biggest concern for Gibbs isn't any of the new signings, but veteran linebacker LaVar Arrington. If he sets a negative tone as a result of his belief that the 'Skins shorted him by $6.5 million in his new contract, it'll be hard to get everyone on the same page.

For the same reason that the Redskins gave new running back Clinton Portis a contract extension when they didn't have to, the 'Skins need to get Arrington happy quickly -- or get rid of him.

Yup... it appears that the Cowboys are happy playing with last year's turds.

I sense alot of fear from Cowboys fans.

I think Cowboy trolls should get a special avatar:

[img]http://www.lan-i-am.org/images/head-up-ass.jpg[/img]

ROTFL!!!!!!! Good one EEIch!!!

hahaha
When cowboys fans start posting anti-skins articles we must be doing something right
You can smell the fear.

Anyone who thinks this Arrington $ is going to affect the team at all is living in Dallas and day-dreaming

and the contract that Wash "didn't have to" sign Portis to? gimme a break. The guy deserved to get paid and the skins are locking up the best RB not currently under federal indictment in the entire league.

this is going to be too fun

[QUOTE=CowboysUK]Profootballtalk editor Mike Florio

POSTED 2:21 p.m. EST, March 5, 2004

'SKINS CRITICIZED (AGAIN) FOR TURD HAUL

League insiders are engaged in their annual buzz-fest regarding the early free-agent signings made by the Redskins.

Per one source, owner Dan Snyder is "playing the system like fantasy football again, overpaying and not caring about character."

The source describes defensive end Phillip Daniels and cornerback Shawn Springs as "two turds in the locker room. They'll have [coach Joe] Gibbs wishing he was playing with a lube gun again by November."

Though no one ever will accuse us for being shills for the 'Skins, we're intrigued by the question of whether Gibbs will be able to polish these and other turds. Gibbs won in the 1980s with guys like Dexter Manley on the roster, and our guess is that John Riggins had his moments, too.

Our biggest concern for Gibbs isn't any of the new signings, but veteran linebacker LaVar Arrington. If he sets a negative tone as a result of his belief that the 'Skins shorted him by $6.5 million in his new contract, it'll be hard to get everyone on the same page.

For the same reason that the Redskins gave new running back Clinton Portis a contract extension when they didn't have to, the 'Skins need to get Arrington happy quickly -- or get rid of him.[/QUOTE]
I would like to propose a rule that states nothing from pro football talk will ever be posted on this site again. I mean c'mon, their site is retarded. A source describes Daniels and Springs as two turds in the locker room?? That's a joke, who is going to say that? These are completely made up "sources", their site is a joke.

Oh man, I just went to that site. What a joke is right! That's probably one of the most unprofessional sites I have ever seen. That site has to be ran by a couple of high schoolers.

I'd rather read commentaries by Len Pasquarelli on the Redskins than that garbage.

I must be one of the few guys who thinks this is one of the worst off seasons ever. First off we gave away a high second round pick for portis when we really should have been getting a second round pick from Denver. Then we overpayed big time for him when we had all the leverage. Then Brunnel,we REALLY overpaid for a guy who is going downhill. I wouldn't have minded signing him. But not for that kind of money. Then the Shawn Springs signing, let me let all you guys on a little secret. Springs SUCKS, and we gave him 10 mill. up front. THere is a reason that Seatle drafted Marcus Trufant last year when they had huge holes on the d-line. And do you guys think we had solved are d-line problems by solving C. Griffen. There's a nother very average player. Terrible offseason. Gibbs is gonna need a GM.

Yeah, I think its just you. Its hard to argue about us giving a second rounder away, but we defintley shouldnt have gotten one for Champ. Dont even tell me the " great CB is harder to find than great RB " comment, because Cornerbacks have about 1/24th the impact on a overall season as Running backs do. In word to his contract, we have him locked up, and happy, and the contract is proboly backloaded so we can just restructure in a few years, if he dosent wanna restructure then screw him get the scissors. We need to win now. As far as that Brunell Contract, that money will never even see Brunell, hes got three years left in him then hes going to go, the only reason he got that much $ was because its spread out over all that time, and it looks like alot more than it really is. Shawn Springs sucks? How do you know? When healthy he is awsome, and there was a reason they drafted Trufant last year... because you need two corner backs on the feild, not one. Finally, Griffen is not just a " Average " player, I'm not saying hes a unbelivable player or anything, but hes a hell of a upgrade from what we have, as is Daniels. I, too, dont think our Dline work can be done, but I think its a good start. In addition, we have resigned some of hte key guys to our special teams unit, Lennie Friedman who may prove to be vital to our Oline, like last year, Kevin Mitchell who might make a run at a starting position, and we have a new punter in Tupa, and a upgraded LB in Marcus Washington. If that sucks, I dont know whats good.

Actually Gman, it's not just him...

[QUOTE=skins009]I must be one of the few guys who thinks this is one of the worst off seasons ever. First off we gave away a high second round pick for portis when we really should have been getting a second round pick from Denver. Then we overpayed big time for him when we had all the leverage. Then Brunnel,we REALLY overpaid for a guy who is going downhill. I wouldn't have minded signing him. But not for that kind of money. Then the Shawn Springs signing, let me let all you guys on a little secret. Springs SUCKS, and we gave him 10 mill. up front. THere is a reason that Seatle drafted Marcus Trufant last year when they had huge holes on the d-line. And do you guys think we had solved are d-line problems by solving C. Griffen. There's a nother very average player. Terrible offseason. Gibbs is gonna need a GM.[/QUOTE]

I hate to say it, Skins009, but sometimes, I think you may be exactly right. If there were no salary cap, I'd say hell yes to Brunell. But the contract he got is more than I would have paid for someone approaching the twilight of his career. I can't really say I agree with his lack of mobility and leadership presence as a QB. I don't watch much Jaguars football. I'd have to pay attention them the way I pay attention to the Skins to generate an informed position. Still, we needed a quality veteran QB, and it looks like we may have one. Buy a hefty contract plus a 3rd rounder might have been a little much.

I will [B]NEVER, EVER [/B] understand why we had to give up a second rounder IN ADDITION to Champ Bailey for Portis. Straight up would have been a little better, but really, knowing how Bailey is the corner that he is, [I]we [/I] should have gotten a draft pick plus Portis. I'd really like to know if Denver was insistent on that issue, or if Danny and Vinny were reckless about it, and added the 2nd rounder without even facing a demand for it. You know, kind of like Shanahan getting a call from Vinny and Danny that went something like this:

Snyder and Cerrato -- "Mike, this is Vinny Cerrato and Dan Snyder. Listen, we're real interested in Clinton Portis -- how about entertaining Champ Bailey for a visit so maybe we can work out some sort of deal?"

Shanahan -- "Hmm, that sounds interesting, let me talk Mr. Bowlen about..."

Snyder and Cerrato (interrupting) -- "We'll throw in a second rounder for him!"

Shanahan -- "Uhh, sure! Wow, I wasn't expecting that! Send Champ on over! In fact, WE"LL book the flight for him!"

If that's the way the conversation went, then Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum are indeed running the show, and running it into the ground I might add.

How about we wait until this time next year to judge this offseason. We haven't even played a game yet guys, let's give Gibbs some time to pull this thing together.

Thanks, Matty! Even Pasquerelli thinks these moves look good on paper. Let's give them a chance.

A chance? I agree w/ you EEich. I know we've all become cynical about flashy offseasons and DSnyder's fantasy football strategy for signing players but jebus. :rolleyes:

I'm completely impressed with the strategy behind our offseason moves (to date). Gibbs likes depth at QB (it's his m.o.), he likes Ramsey but can use Brunell as a mentor, low-turnover style passer/field general, and tackling dummy until they can get this OLine in shape. It'll challenge Ramsey, and Gmanc is 100% right about these backloaded contracts- Brunell might see 1/2 that money if he's lucky.
Champ wanted to go. It would have been nice to swap 1 for 1 but again, i gotta agree w/ gmanc that you're talking about a getting a 22 yr old superstar who'll touch the ball 30-40 times a game, and whose contract turned out to be 5 million less and 2 years longer than the offer we made to Champ.

The staff knew they could get a decent replacement for Bailey thru FA, and they did. Springs is still young, still a badass when healthy (and he was healthy most of his career until the broken shoulder blade).

Just can't understand how anyone would be disappointed in these moves. They may not pay off in our Gibbs' 1st season, but we've upgraded QB RB and DLine already, some would argue LB as well, and filled that hole at CB. Portis Coles and Ramsey are a promising core group for our future, and w/ the #5 pick we're in perfect position to trade down and pick up 2 more DLineman, or keep it and upgrade the secondary with S.Taylor, or even grab 1 of those 3 WR's.
We've been burned badly in the past. The expectations have outweighed the results every offseason for way too long, but I'm completely geeked about Gibbs' master plan so far. This team needed a massive overhaul b/c of attitude/bad chemistry if nothing else.
but yeah- we gotta long way to go.

I can see us taking taylor/winslow or trading down, but a WR would be crazy.

Everyone wants the skins to fail, because they just can't stand Snyder. He's viewed (not without some reason) as an arrogant, spoiled rich kid who wants to buy his way to success instead of earning his keep in the good-old American tradition of blue-collar hard work. And here comes another off-season, and Danny-boy is at it again. What, sportswriters are going to change their tune now? Why, when they sell papers by following this line. It's a good story for the otherwise hum-drum offseason.

The real question is, did the skins get quality, and did they pay the right price. Here's what they needed to upgrade, going into the offseason: Vet QB, RB, CB to replace Champ, TE, LB to replace Armstead and free up Lavar, D-linemen, saftey, center, punter.

QB: Brunell
RB: Portis
CB: Springs
TE: Rasby? Winslow?
LB: Washington
D-line: Giffen, Daniels, Udeze?, etc?
Safety: Grant? Taylor?
Center: Friedman, Beverly?
Punter: Tupa?

SO, did Danny pay too much so far? He shells out the bonus money, but some of that is just out of pocket, and he's a billionaire. If that's how he wants to spend his cash, more power to him. Brunell's deal is backloaded, and he won't get the last years of it. PLus, look at the Jets and Falcons when they lost their young QBs: disaster. That won't happen here.

Protis's deal is backloaded as well, but if he is as good as he's been so far, he'll be a great deal. Imagine if he has another 1,500 yeard season next year. What will he be worth then? More than the skins are paying him, I figure. If he's a bust, release him before the later years of the contract.

Daniels is a turd? Well, his d coach of several years in Chicago didn't think so. A versitile role player on the d-line, and an upgrade for the skins. Griffen is a bit of a gamble. BUt he's young, coachable, and ready to prove himself, I think. Once again, Danny-boy was ready to drop a fat bonus where others weren't: Griffen has potential, but he'll need good coaching to reach it. Under Fox, great, under Fasell, so-so. Oh right, we've got great coaches.

We'll see about the TE. Here they seem to be after a blocker first, hence Rasby. Is this a mistake? Winslow is a potential gamebreaker, and Gibbs and Zampesi coached his dad.

Anyone complaining AT ALL about Washington. I haven't heard it, not even Pastabelly or the cowpunks.

Saftey, Center, and Punter (and additional D-line help) are still up in the air. But despite all the whining in the press, they've [B]STILL GOT CAP ROOM LEFT [/B] to sign quality players. Anything wrong here?

Finally (and I know, this is an endless friggin post!), Gibbs has stated that it's a priority that all his players are in MINICAMP (not just training camp!). Thus, a quick deal with Brunell and Portis (who may well have held out without a deal, creating a new controversy).

PS The second rounder for Portis was because of the cap space created/lost. Picks=cap space. We picked up space, we deal a pick. Question: were there any other BETTER deals out there for Mr. I-do-no-want-to-be-here (aka "show me the money") Bailey? The Lions wouldn't give picks, and the jets were packaging crap. This is a good deal.

Oh, and [B]FUC* THE COWBOYS! HOW'S THAT GALLOWAY TRADE GOING, YOU COWTIPPING INBRED MORONS.[/B]

great points JW

and your hatred for Dallas warms my heart.
:D

Yeah that's what they needed. Keyshawn.
I love that Parcells wanted Brunell too. Gibbs moved so fast no one else had a chance.

And yeah, Daseal- I'd be surprised if we grabbed a WR too. Just listing all the scenarios b/c I think the staff's put themselves in a great position before the draft.

I had posted this on the old warpath site, but I'll post it again:

I have no beef with Snyder. There is no limit to what he will do to acquire talent for his team. Imagine if he just pocketed all the money he makes off the Redskins instead of reinvesting it in the team. I think the Redskins new strategy of poaching free agents entering their prime is a sound one. We see the Redskins as a football team, but they are first and foremost a businessl. In fact, the formal name of the Redskins as an organization is actually, "Washington Football, Inc." And as a business, they have zeroed in on the competitive advantage they have over every single other team in the NFL, which is that they are the most profitable cash-generating franchise. Because all teams share TV revenue, the only way to get a "leg up" on competing teams is to generat revenue from luxury boxes, which is unshared. And the Skins have the most of those. Because all teams have to equally comply with the salary cap for contracts, the only way to get an advantage over competing teams is to offer signing bonuses, which can be prorated over the term of a contract even if they are paid out as upfront lump sum. So it's not that Snyder and the Redskins FO think they're smarter than everyone else; it's a fact that this is an advantage the Redskins have. If they have money to use, why not use it?

The criticism of Snyder is particularly interesting in 20/20 hindsight. In Snyder's first year as owner, 1999, the Redskins made the playoffs and, in fact, were a point away from the NFC Championship. But keep in mind the Redskins finished that season 10-6 after barely beating a hapless 49ers team in overtime. Had we lost, we would have been 9-7 and hoping to catch a break. Instead, it was the first and last season under Norv that we made the playoffs and the first and last time since the magical '91 season. And that year, because the Redskins made it "over the hump" and the only thing new was Snyder, all the revisionist history was about how the success was thanks to the owner. Unlike Cooke (particulary John), the fable went, Snyder did not "tolerate mediocrity." No, unlike the stodgy and "patient" Cookes of the old money of real estate, Snyder was a product of the Internet age, so he demanded results "now". And so the story went that that "pressure" that he put on Norv and the team, is what put them over the top.

Of course, now that the Redskins are mired in a string of losing seasons (instead of squeaking into the playoffs by one game by beating the hapless 49ers in OT) all that has been turned upside down because now Snyder is a "meddler" who "interferes" and lacks a "plan". Interesting

Snyder will do everything in his power to help Gibbs win, and that's all any coach, player or fan could ask for

[COLOR=DarkRed]if i were god for one day i would turn cowboys stadium in texas into the world's largest open air piss hole.i can't help but think that god looks down from heaven and thinks of that stadium as the world's largest latrine.[/COLOR]I HATE ALL COWBOYS(excepywayne,eastwood,and matt dillion)by the way,who the hell is this attner guy?

I had no idea that there were Cowboy fans on this side of the pond.

I can only offer my sincere apologies for this embaressing oversight. We will try to round them up and put them in small dark rooms so that they can reflect on their choices.

Perhaps make them watch that godawful soap opera about oil barons on a repeated loop.

:D

Interesting Debate
 

Hey guys,

I posted those two articles because I had to wonder how you guys viewed Snyder's offseason strategy now we're seeing the same kind of behaviour for the second year straight. Some of your points were really interesting and I thank those who responded with serious and considered points for taking my posts in they way they were intended, i.e. as the start of an interesting debate.

Those who felt compelled to respond with childish anti-Cowboys rhetoric let your forum down in my opinion.

Personally, I go along with those who find Snyder's strategy as slightly irresponsible and I can't help feeling that the Broncos took advantage of him in the Portis-Bailey trade. The same might be said for Brunnel's agent. Still the LB Washington and the CB Butler from the Rams (if you get him) would be nice pickups.

[I]Edit: Might have to take back what I said about Butler above, I've just seen the details of his contract offer. More than he's worth again guys.[/I]

As for those taking the, "let's wait and see" approach to the offseason signings - how do you feel Snyder did last season now that you have a chance to judge?

Regards.

It's a whole new deal with Gibbs at the helm ... Snyder is only getting the players that Gibbs wants and this will likely be the last major FA signing frenzy while JG is in charge. He's building the foundation for his team. I laugh when people say the Skins got fleeced in the Bailey/Portis deal. Watch Portis tear up the NFC for the next few years ... is there a better RB in the NFC East right now? Who do the Cowboys have? No one's going to remember the extra second rounder in a few years. Good trade for the Redskins.

[QUOTE=CowboysUK]
Personally, I go along with those who find Snyder's strategy as slightly irresponsible and I can't help feeling that the Broncos took advantage of him in the Portis-Bailey trade. The same might be said for Brunnel's agent.
[/QUOTE]

Snyder, in the past, just didn't know how to run a sports franchise. He saw big names, or household names, and figured the more of them on our team, the better. He's learned through his mistakes I believe. This year, we had definite holes on offense and defense that had to be filled. Also, with Joe Gibbs returning, Gibbs wants players that are going to be "Gibbs players." Bailey didn't want to return as a Redskin, no matter the coach next year. The first excuse was, I don't want to be on a losing team, the next is, I don't want to have to play for yet another defensive coordinator. As much as I liked Bailey, and as much as I respect his playing ability, Bailey had to go, because he was not happy in Washington. I don't feel Washington got shafted in the trade for Portis though. He was clearly the best RB on the free agency market -- and that is what the Redskins needed.

As far as Mark Brunnel goes, as Gibbs himself stated; Joe likes to have the veteren presence at the QB position, whether the vet starts or not. Make no mistake about it, as long as Ramsey stays paitent, he'll remain the future of the Washington Redskins, but Ramsey is got to realize that if he's going to be brought up right and be sucessful in the NFL, then he needs to listen to Gibbs and follow what he tells him to do. Ramsey will be a better QB for it, and even if he does have to sit out a season or two, he'll be the top QB when his time comes.

As far as the comment on people here making "childish" comments here..dude what do you expect? You are a Cowboys fan. When deciding to join this Redskins forum board, you should have realized that you are not going to be positively accepted here. Especially posting negative comments about the team.

[QUOTE=CowboysUK]Hey guys,

Those who felt compelled to respond with childish anti-Cowboys rhetoric let your forum down in my opinion.

[/QUOTE]So CowboysUK... what forum website do you call home?
We'll all come over and post worthless crap about the Cowboys' do-nothing off season and see what kind responses we get.

People continue to forget that this is not 2000 all over again. Take a look at the Redskins roster, there are only 6-7 players over the age of 30 as of opening day, some like Mitchell and Noble and Tupa aren't key players.. Let's allow this to play out before we start jumping to conclusions about 'here we go again'.. With the exception of CB, I think each move has represented an upgrade from the player that finished the season at that position..

Brunell is better right now than Ramsey simply based on experience
Portis is a no brainer over Candidate/Betts/Rock
Rasby is a much better blocker than Chamberlain
Dainels is an upgrade over Bruce Smith
Griffin is an upgrade over anyone who played DT last year
Washington is faster, more athletic and younger than Armstead
Springs from Bailey is a downgrade, but better safety play can offset that
Tupa is an upgrade from Barker
oh yeah, that Gibbs guy is a little better than the Ole Ball-less Coach

I definately do not think that the 'Skins got shafted in the trade. I think Portis put it best when he said that Bailey could only control one player, while he controls where the ball is going.
Brunell is probably going to retire before the entire contract has been finished so he won't be seeing all of that money.
Wrong forum to join if you don't want to hear criticism about your team, man. That's just the way it is.

I think Brunnel will start for maybe two seasons and then Ramsey will take over. By then, Ramsey should be at the fullest of his potential. As paintrain stated, this isn't 2000 over again. The choices were are making in the free agent market are good choices based on the players' ability, strengths, and age as well. Most of the ones we've gotten so far are fairly young players, except for Brunnell, but he is still considered in his prime at the age of 33?

Geesh. Morons.

can somebody plese let me know just who the hell this attner or aptner guy is?i have never heard of him/her/it before.

[QUOTE=CowboysUK]Geesh. Morons.[/QUOTE]

*poke* Hhhmmmm, Cowboys fan posting on a Redskins forum board. I'm sure if you try hard enough, you can be more moronic than that, right?

Must be really bored since there's no action in their offseason, other then Parcells eating habits, to read up on articles on their arch-rivals from obscure amateur websites and post it on here. He probably was so upset that the Meshawn deal fell through that he had to try to stir things up here to make himself feel better. Misery loves company.

Hey Jeeves, blow it out your arse ye bloody wanker.

So, really, how's that Galloway trade going?

Portis or Hambrick?
Coles or Glenn?
Brunell/Ramsey or Carter/Hutchinson?

Yeah, I can see why a Cowboys fan would want to be part of a Redskins discussion board. ;)

by the way, bigredskinfan, email paul attner at [email]attner@sportingnews.com[/email]