Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

If were going to make Zorn work this wouldn't be such a bad idea.
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re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

NOOOOO
yes
NOOOOO
maybe as GM in place of Vinny?
NOOOOO
maybe next year as GM in place of Vinny?
Ok talk about it next year.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

I would take Holmgren in a front office/ hc role if it help develop Zorn into a better couch down the road. I think Zorn can couch but actually re-build a team I rather see Holmgren do that with Zorn.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

NO!!
-Fox Mulder

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

I would like Holmgren in an advisory or FO role. He is burnt out and doesn't have the ambition to work 90 hrs/wk 46 weeks a year. He is a great evaluator though and I think it would be great to have someone on staff to help Zorn. Little things like practice times, training camp schedule, press conference etiquette, gameday protocol and such often make a difference between 8-8 and 10-6.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

I would love to have him in a Parcels type role as President but I am not on board with firing Zorn. Holmgren in charge of the whole organization and helping to mentor Zorn on the side would be a great situation.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

If Zorn tanks again next year I could see Holmgren being strongly considered. We'll see.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

I have to admit like a lot of people that I would not mind seeing Holmgren in a President/GM type role like a Parcells in Miami.

However, not as a coach. It would be nice to see the organization develop a good gameplan for getting more young, hungry, talented players rather than constantly fiddle with the coaching. I think we have competent coaching overall, Zorn is a little green but he is no Spurrier.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=Otis Wonsley;512966]I have to admit like a lot of people that I would not mind seeing Holmgren in a President/GM type role like a Parcells in Miami.

However, not as a coach. It would be nice to see the organization develop a good gameplan for getting more young, hungry, talented players rather than constantly fiddle with the coaching. I think we have competent coaching overall, Zorn is a little green but he is no Spurrier.[/quote]

As much as id like to agree, there's no way they get rid of Vinny. This guy will never lose his job.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

What would make Holmgren want to come to Washington?
He is a California boy who's farthest travels east in the coaching world have been to Wisconsin. He is pushing 60, has been in the NFL for @25 years and seems awfully burned out on coaching. One would think he has no need of $$ at this point after so many years as a successful head coach.
JLC is throwing a name out there to create discussion thread buzz. It will amount to nothing.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

Does anyone remember that when Holmgren first went to Seattle he also had GM duties and they ended up stripping him of that. So why would we want him to handle head coach and GM duties for us?? I think he already proved he wasn't a great fit for that dual role.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=WaldSkins;512969]As much as id like to agree, there's no way they get rid of Vinny. This guy will never lose his job.[/quote]

Right they won't get rid of Vinny, but no one was named President when Gibbs stepped down. Snyder could bring him in as President of the Redskins which would make Vinny report to Holmgren. The only issues would be if Holmgren would work with Vinny and accept a role that does not include coaching. Hiring Holmgren to run the franchise is a perfect fit since he is a master of the type of offense they are trying to impliment. Plus he would be an invaluable resourse for Zorn as he develops as a head coach.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=Joe Kidd;512976]Does anyone remember that when Holmgren first went to Seattle he also had GM duties and they ended up stripping him of that. So why would we want him to handle head coach and GM duties for us?? I think he already proved he wasn't a great fit for that dual role.[/quote]

I wouldn't want him as HC, but maybe as team prez/GM. Not too many HC's also make good GM's at the same time. But seperate from each other...

Zorn and Holmgren are close, Holmgren's coaching tree is impeccable, and he is the King of WCO in the current NFL (with Bill Walsh gone that is.). I would have no issue whatsoever bringing in Holmgren as the team's GM/advisor to Zorn. In fact I would welcome it.

But as JLC repeatedly points out, this is big-time speculation at this point.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

Vinny was promoted when Gibbs retired, so he is effectively the GM/Pres., it's all semantics really. Holmgren would likely only want the job if he had either 1) the head coach position, or 2) Vinny's job.

I like the sound of Holmgren maybe going to Dallas. While I like him & think he's a good head coach, I think the fact that he's been talking retirement for a while makes him not an ideal coaching candidate. Do you really want a head coach that seems so undecided on whether to coach or not? Let the cowpokes hire him, his heart won't be in it enough to deal w/JJ et al.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=freddyg12;512996]Vinny was promoted when Gibbs retired, so he is effectively the GM/Pres., it's all semantics really. Holmgren would likely only want the job if he had either 1) the head coach position, or 2) Vinny's job.

I like the sound of Holmgren maybe going to Dallas. While I like him & think he's a good head coach, I think the fact that he's been talking retirement for a while makes him not an ideal coaching candidate. Do you really want a head coach that seems so undecided on whether to coach or not? Let the cowpokes hire him, his heart won't be in it enough to deal w/JJ et al.[/quote]

Vinny got the GM title but he didn't get the President title that Gibbs had. They could give Holmgren the same job Parcels has in Miami without demoting Vinny at all. I don't know that he wants that but there is an opening in the skins current front office structure for a new President.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

I wouldn't mind this scenario, and it would most likely mean that Cerrato is gone.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=celts32;512958]I would love to have him in a Parcels type role as President but I am not on board with firing Zorn. Holmgren in charge of the whole organization and helping to mentor Zorn on the side would be a great situation.[/quote]


Zorn is toast, unless he can perform miracles against the Eagles and 49ers. Why the hell do folks want to keep Zorn so bad? Continuity for continuity's sake has been done before. That is why we got stuck with Norv for 10 years. Do you fools want to get stuck with going 7-9 to 8-8 every year? His system is passe, and it has been figured out as a result of the WCO being featured by too many teams in the last 20 years. Also, what guy comes out in front of the press and tells them he must be the worst HC in the NFL? Stick a fork in the poor bastard. And why do you want Holmgren to come here to mentor Zorn(assuming Zorn somehow stays)? He had a short, but very sweet run with Brett and the Pack and a few good years with Seattle when Alexander was worth something as a RB. After that the Seahawks have sucked. Only thing that has kept them afloat is they are in the crappiest division in the NFL. According to ESPN a couple nights ago talking about coaches on the hot seat with the info they talked about with regards to Zorn, he looks like he is going to be in the unemployment line soon. Can't believe folks want to keep Zorn if Cowher looks like he is the heir apparent.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

"Can't believe folks want to keep Zorn if Cowher looks like he is the heir apparent"

Good Call Gus. I dont know either.

If anything lets hold Zorn as QB Coach to develop Campbell...because thats the only positive things hes done.
Is it possible for Zorn to JUST be QB Coach? ah.. probally not.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;513042]Zorn is toast, unless he can perform miracles against the Eagles and 49ers. Why the hell do folks want to keep Zorn so bad? Continuity for continuity's sake has been done before. That is why we got stuck with Norv for 10 years. Do you fools want to get stuck with going 7-9 to 8-8 every year? His system is passe, and it has been figured out as a result of the WCO being featured by too many teams in the last 20 years. Also, what guy comes out in front of the press and tells them he must be the worst HC in the NFL? Stick a fork in the poor bastard. And why do you want Holmgren to come here to mentor Zorn(assuming Zorn somehow stays)? He had a short, but very sweet run with Brett and the Pack and a few good years with Seattle when Alexander was worth something as a RB. After that the Seahawks have sucked. Only thing that has kept them afloat is they are in the crappiest division in the NFL. According to ESPN a couple nights ago talking about coaches on the hot seat with the info they talked about with regards to Zorn, he looks like he is going to be in the unemployment line soon. Can't believe folks want to keep Zorn if Cowher looks like he is the heir apparent.[/quote]

We have no idea what Zorn can do because he has only had 1 year. Thinking like that you would have fired Joe Gibbs in 1981...not that i am saying Zorn will ever be Gibbs. I think the Redskins biggest problems are in the front office and having an experienced guy like Holmgren there would help.

And what makes everyone think Cohwer will be so great with his next team? Is he going to bring the whole Pittsburgh front office with him? And Cowher is a pipe dream anyway because he will never work with Vinny as his personel man. Besides if Cohwer wanted the Redskins coaching job he would have taken it last year.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=celts32;513050]We have no idea what Zorn can do because he has only had 1 year. Thinking like that you would have fired Joe Gibbs in 1981...not that i am saying Zorn will ever be Gibbs. I think the Redskins biggest problems are in the front office and having an experienced guy like Holmgren there would help.

And what makes everyone think Cohwer will be so great with his next team? Is he going to bring the whole Pittsburgh front office with him? And Cowher is a pipe dream anyway because he will never work with Vinny as his personel man. Besides if Cohwer wanted the Redskins coaching job he would have taken it last year.[/quote]

gibbs went 8-8 his first year but finished strong winning 8 out of 11 zorn has done the opposite and i think the strong start was due to there being no film on him no the book is out

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

How is it all of a sudden now we hear that Holmgren is Snyders boy? Snyder wanted Gibbs when he bought the team and Gibbs said no. Gibbs comes back and Cowher retires. Snyder tries for Cowher because supposedly Snyder likes him and respects him and is..."his boy." Now we hear rumblings about Holmgren?
Wasn't Cowher a defensive coach? or am I wrong. We could keep Zorn if he chooses to stay by simply making Cowher HC and keeping Zorn for OC and QB and runing the offensive side of the ball. The big question is would Zorn step back and say I'd rather just be a OC all the other stuff was to much? and even saying, I was impressed with Zorn for 8 games of the season, I am not impressed with the latter 8 games of the season and how he can't adjust his offense to create wins. I'm not impressed with how he can't adjust his offense during half time in order to pull out a win. Hell at this point I'm more impressed with the fact that Spurrier was able to do more of these things and lose then Zorn. So unless he lights it up the last two games and shows he can make adjustments and make this system work somehow.....I can see him being let go or someone being hired to tutor him....perhaps it's Holmgren, but Holmgren is not Snyders boy....we all know that's Cowher. If he can get him he will get him. No matter the cost.
As someone else pointed out. This team is probubly the best team for him to want to come to. He would not coach a team that is a rival to Pitt. It would make him look bad. So Cincy's out as well as the Browns. He would be stupid to work for the Raiders which he's not. As long as I've lived I can't remember Detroit ever having a winning record. lol. So Detroits out. I'm not sure of any other teams who would be looking. Keep in mind his daughter supposedly went to a school near by. This would enable him to see more of her games and be more active in her life. Something stated before also.

and Celts, as for the "Snyder tried to get Cowher and Cowher said no" ....Cowher was sticking to his time limit he claimed he would take as well as his other responsibilities to networks. He said something like I'm taking 2-3 yrs off. This would be the year he would be coming back according to his original wording. I believe because he probably made a promise to his wife or something and second kid not to move them out of the schools they were in. I thought he had a younger daughter who would be graduating HS. about now. could be wrong.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

I've asked this before, maybe someone can help me out. Has a HC ever lost his job and stayed on as OC somewhere? People drop that idea like it's a common thing in the NFL. I've just never heard of such a thing being a reality.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=SBXVII;513060]How is it all of a sudden now we hear that Holmgren is Snyders boy? Snyder wanted Gibbs when he bought the team and Gibbs said no. Gibbs comes back and Cowher retires. [B]Snyder tries for Cowher because supposedly Snyder likes him and respects him and is..."his boy." Now we hear rumblings about Holmgren?[/B]
Wasn't Cowher a defensive coach? or am I wrong. [B]We could keep Zorn if he chooses to stay by simply making Cowher HC and keeping Zorn for OC and QB and runing the offensive side of the ball. [/B]The big question is would Zorn step back and say I'd rather just be a OC all the other stuff was to much? and even saying, I was impressed with Zorn for 8 games of the season, I am not impressed with the latter 8 games of the season and how he can't adjust his offense to create wins. I'm not impressed with how he can't adjust his offense during half time in order to pull out a win. Hell at this point I'm more impressed with the fact that Spurrier was able to do more of these things and lose then Zorn. So unless he lights it up the last two games and shows he can make adjustments and make this system work somehow.....I can see him being let go or someone being hired to tutor him....perhaps it's Holmgren, but Holmgren is not Snyders boy....we all know that's Cowher. If he can get him he will get him. No matter the cost.
As someone else pointed out. This team is probubly the best team for him to want to come to. [B]He would not coach a team that is a rival to Pitt. It would make him look bad. So Cincy's out as well as the Browns.[/B] He would be stupid to work for the Raiders which he's not. As long as I've lived I can't remember Detroit ever having a winning record. lol. So Detroits out. I'm not sure of any other teams who would be looking. Keep in mind his daughter supposedly went to a school near by. This would enable him to see more of her games and be more active in her life. Something stated before also.[/quote]

Danny went for Cowher last year becuase he was the biggest name with the biggest list of accomplishments. Cowher wanted control, Snyder said no (because he's a control freak and attached to Vinny), so Cowher said see ya.

All these people who automatically think Zorn would accept a demotion after one season are crazy. Why is this being suggested so much around here? It simply doesn't happen in the NFL. No one expected much more than a 7-9 or 8-8 record out of Zorn in year 1. That's what he's going to deliver, despite having to implement a brand new offense and work with many coaches with whom he had no previous experience. He had never even been a coordinator, did anyone really think there wouldn't be road bumps??

I wouldn't say the Browns are out for The Chin. Cowher played for, then coached for the Browns long before he had any affiliation to Pittsburgh. Marty Schottenheimer coached the Cheifs for a long time, then went to divsion-rival San Deigo. There's a long list of stuff like this. It wouldn't make Cowher look bad at all to go back to his roots. The only bitter people would be Steelers fans, however the Steelers may be better off now than they were with Cowher. Mike Tomlin is doing a fantastic job (albeit with Dick LeBeau's help) in Pitt.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;513063]I've asked this before, maybe someone can help me out. Has a HC ever lost his job and stayed on as OC somewhere? People drop that idea like it's a common thing in the NFL. I've just never heard of such a thing being a reality.[/quote]

Closest example of that is Dave Campo. Head Coach until Parcels arrived after 2002 then took a position as secondary coach this year.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

Matty, I'm only suggesting cause I'm looking for your exact question to be answered. I don't think it's ever happened. I also don't think Zorn would take being demoted. or would the league allow a demotion.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

GM, I had no idea of the whole control thing. I understood it to be Snyder asked if he would take the job and Cowher said no he wanted to sit out one more year plus he had commitments to the networks.

I have to be honest. I can't imagine any coach taking a job he is not going to have 100% control, other then a new coach looking for a promotion. I think it's ok for Snyder to want to have input as to who should be hired or let go or how much money to spend on any given player but other wise allow the coach to assemble his team. Allow the coach to evaluate the players. Allow the coach to pick the players he needs in the draft. All his input should be is a bonified suggestion. I know , I know its his business , his toy, his play thing, but if he wants a winning team he has to let go of the passifier.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=SBXVII;513072]GM, I had no idea of the whole control thing. I understood it to be Snyder asked if he would take the job and Cowher said no he wanted to sit out one more year plus he had commitments to the networks.

I have to be honest. [B]I can't imagine any coach taking a job he is not going to have 100% control, other then a new coach looking for a promotion. I[/B] think it's ok for Snyder to want to have input as to who should be hired or let go or how much money to spend on any given player but other wise allow the coach to assemble his team. Allow the coach to evaluate the players. Allow the coach to pick the players he needs in the draft. All his input should be is a bonified suggestion. I know , I know its his business , his toy, his play thing, but if he wants a winning team he has to let go of the passifier.[/quote]

Well, Parcells did it in Dallas. I remember him being interviewed while he was still with ESPN right before he took the Dallas job. When asked how he'd like not having full control of personnel, Parcells said, "I don't need that."

I think there are more coaches than we think who are willing to cede personnel decisions to someone else. Whether they'd want to work here is another matter.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=SBXVII;513072][B]GM, I had no idea of the whole control thing. I understood it to be Snyder asked if he would take the job and Cowher said no he wanted to sit out one more year plus he had commitments to the networks. [/B]

I have to be honest. I can't imagine any coach taking a job he is not going to have 100% control, other then a new coach looking for a promotion. I think it's ok for Snyder to want to have input as to who should be hired or let go or how much money to spend on any given player but other wise allow the coach to assemble his team. Allow the coach to evaluate the players. Allow the coach to pick the players he needs in the draft. All his input should be is a bonified suggestion. I know , I know its his business , his toy, his play thing, but if he wants a winning team he has to let go of the passifier.[/quote]

SB- I don't know if it went down the exact way I said it, however I do know that Snyder apparently reached out to him, and from what I understand Cowher's lack of interest stemmed from two things: he wanted more time away from the game, and if he was to return he wanted full control.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

To suggest Cowher you have to first believe that Snyder will fire VC...one can't happen without the other.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;513063]I've asked this before, maybe someone can help me out. Has a HC ever lost his job and stayed on as OC somewhere? People drop that idea like it's a common thing in the NFL. I've just never heard of such a thing being a reality.[/quote]Gunther Cunningham, but it wasn't like a demotion. It was a firing, then a re-hiring like three years later.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

Yeah I'm not talking about rejoining a team a few years later.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

Snyder is just going to do what he wanted to do last year, hire Jimmie Johnson to run the franchise...I'm kidding....or am I? ;)

In all seriousness though, Holmgren I suppose is a remote possibility (though I think he's more likely to go to San Francisco in a Bill Parcells type of role), but I don't see what the benefit of having him here is. I especially don't understand the whole "mentor Zorn while serving as President/GM" idea. He couldn't handle running the front office and being a head coach before, I can't see him being able to do something similar-if not more difficult-now. Plus, I think Snyder's love of Holmgren is really more about Snyder's admiration for Ron Wolf.

But Holmgren is probably one of those names you'll inevitably hear along with other names. Some of which are actually probably more likely to come in. Just to name a couple, apart from the oft-rumored Bill Cowher: Pete Carroll-He'd want to run everything and the only person I think Snyder is going to allow to do that is Cowher; Dennis Green-He could be an option, he's always near the top of the list as a proven veteran coach who ownership could cede full control to; Dan Reeves-Highly unlikely, but never say never I suppose. Marty Schottenheimer-Would surprise me less than Gregg Williams coming back. Schott supposedly only wants to come back to the NFL in a front office position and he and Cowher have, again supposedly, spoken about "how cool would it be if we worked together." Cowher has the utmost respect for Schottenheimer as he's one person he may be willing to cede front office control to. Granted, this is a bit of an extreme long shot because Cowher is probably going to command way too much money to only be head coach. As for Snyder and Schott's relationship, a) it's fine and b) the biggest issue with them in the past is that Snyder wanted to bring in a "GM" and have Schott focus strictly on coaching, he thought one reason for the slow start in 2001 was that Marty had focused too much time and energy in the off-season on personnel decisisons rather than on-field activities, but Schott didn't want to give up oversight of the salary cap, college scouting, etc. so nobody wanted to come in as GM. It wasn't really so much that Snyder thought Schottenheimer couldn't handle the job. Again, a long shot but not impossible.

But if I were a betting man and, assuming Zorn is indeed let go or resigns or whatever, had to pick who I think the top candidates are to be the next head coach then I would probably say that it's likely to be Cowher or Brian Billick, with Mariucci a possibility. Green is less likely and Carroll probably even less likely. I personally happen to like Mike Sherman and would love to see him here, if we made a change. But I doubt he's being considered.

As for Cerrato, I really doubt he's going to get fired. But I can see him being removed gradually from the football operations to focus much more on the business side. He could be like Rich McKay in Atlanta.

The thing with Cerrato is that he and Zorn are somewhat inevitably attached. Zorn is after all "Cerrato's Guy." Of course, we all know that's less true than the fact that no one else (Fassel, etc.) wanted to be associated with VC. Snyder committed to Cerrato and let other, perhaps better, options walk away to appease Cerrato. So if you get rid of Zorn, then you would think that some blame needs to be placed on Cerrato. If you commit to zorn, then you'd assume that it's also a validation of Cerrato.

Also, I should add that when I said I thought Zorn is probably 80% likely to be gone, that may have been a bit hyperbolic. I should just say he's likely gone.

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

Looks like Holmgren will be somewhere other than Seattle doing something football related next year:

[B][URL="http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/18/holmgren-still-has-the-itch-to-coach/"][COLOR=#0000ff]HOLMGREN STILL HAS THE ITCH TO COACH[/COLOR][/URL][/B]

Posted by Michael David Smith on December 18, 2008, 3:57 p.m.

Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren has just two more games left in Seattle. But all indications are that he’s not done in the NFL.
Holmgren said he still has the desire to coach, even though he decided long before this season started that he would walk away from Seattle.
“Right in the back of my (mind), [URL="http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/seahawks/story/571052.html"][COLOR=#0000ff]that little itch I can’t scratch, it’s still there[/COLOR][/URL],” Holmgren said, per the News Tribune. “Maybe someday.”
But beyond that, Holmgren wouldn’t say where he might wind up, or even whether a future NFL job would be on the sidelines or in the front office.
“I’m not getting into specifics,” he said. “We’re just talking about itches here.”

Re: Could Holmgren Be the End Game?
 

How about we do something sensible like raid the Seahawks coaching staff once Holmgren leaves.

Hil Haskell-Offensive Coordinator of the passing game
Mike DeBord- Assistant Offensive Line coach
Keith Gilbertson- WR Coach
Jim Lind- TE Coach