2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

Bruce Smith
Derrick Thomas
Ralph Wilson
Rod Woodson
Bob Hayes
Randall McDaniel

[url=http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/story.jsp?story_id=3095]CLASS OF 2009 ANNOUNCED - Pro Football Hall of Fame[/url]

[URL="http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/31/hall-of-fame-open-thread/"]ProFootballTalk.com - HALL OF FAME OPEN THREAD[/URL]

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

No Shannon Sharpe huh, I'm kinda surprised about that.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=Mattyk72;524227]No Shannon Sharpe huh, I'm kinda surprised about that.[/quote]

Yeah, me too. I'm glad Chris Carter didn't make it. I really don't like that guy.

Bummer Russ Grimm didn't make it.

I was a little surprised Tagliabue wasn't even in the top 10.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

Yeah nice to see Carter shut out again. After what happened to Monk I don't feel sorry for him at all.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

Brucie going in as a Skin??

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=WaldSkins;524230]Brucie going in as a Skin??[/quote]

Umm.... no


Congrats to all though, I'm glad to see Derrick Thomas get in. I was a big fan of his growing up.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

I wanted to see Grimm get in (especially ahead of McDaniel) . A feel good moment that the late Derrick Thomas got in. Funny to see Carter not in the Hall yet.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

Bruce Smith, Rod Wooson, and Randall McDaniel are all no doubt, sure fire Hall of Famers.

And good for Ralph Wilson. You can't use stats to measure owners, but anecdotaly, I fully support his inclusion.

Derrick Thomas was borderline, but I'm really happy for him that he did get in. There were some snubs who deserved it more than him though.

The real perplexing one is 'Bullet' Bob Hayes. Really? A dynamic kick returner early in his career, his career as a pass receiver certainly doesn't suggest that he would one day be in Canton. He was a good punt returner, but only 3 career TDs. I don't know how you can justify him over Sharpe, Carter, or even Andre Reed.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

I don't think you can really argue with any of the inductees. Also surprised Shannon Sharpe didn't get in.

Disagree with Hayes, Gtripp. He changed the way the game was played, and he also has more receiving TDs than Art Monk (who also had a longer career), 20 yard AVERAGE per catch, and 0 fumbles. He was important for the game, stats don't tell the whole story -- but he arguably has the stats to be HoF worthy.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=Gmanc711;524232]Umm.... no


Congrats to all though, I'm glad to see Derrick Thomas get in. I was a big fan of his growing up.[/quote]

Just joking

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

Lineman don't get traditional stats kept for them, but here's a cursory look at Grimm's very nice career vs. McDaniels via PFR. It's clear that McDaniels case was much stronger.
[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McDaRa00.htm"]
McDaniel[/URL]

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrimRu00.htm"]Grimm[/URL]

Grimm probably needs to do something of note with his coaching career to get elected. I'd call him 'borderline', and it's great that he's come as far as he has in the process, but he's going to keep getting passed over unless he does something as a NFL head coach, unfortunately.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=Daseal;524236]I don't think you can really argue with any of the inductees. Also surprised Shannon Sharpe didn't get in.

Disagree with Hayes, Gtripp. He changed the way the game was played, and he also has more receiving TDs than Art Monk (who also had a longer career), 20 yard AVERAGE per catch, and 0 fumbles. He was important for the game, stats don't tell the whole story -- but he arguably has the stats to be HoF worthy.[/quote]Well, I can see the argument for him statistically, but I don't see how/when he did anything to change the way the game was played. He had a explosive beginning to his career, then teams adjusted, and he was never really great after that again.

According to the [URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1341"]PFR Blog[/URL] there are 12 HOF eligible receivers with a stronger case than Hayes. I'd say when a player is in the top five at his position in terms of HOF eligible (but not in yet) talent, he "deserves" to get in. Hayes, even including his wonderful 3 PR TDs, really seems like he jumped a bunch of more qualified people to get in.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

I agree with Gtripp, you're telling me Sharpe, Carter or Reed couldn't beat out Bob Hayes? Any one of those guys are equally deserving [B](if not more) [/B]to have their busts in Canton. Too bad for Carter, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Jerry Rice come on the ballot next year? If so its going to be a few years before Carter will get in

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=vallin21;524240]I agree with Gtripp, you're telling me Sharpe, Carter or Reed couldn't beat out Bob Hayes? Any one of those guys are equally deserving [B](if not more) [/B]to have their busts in Canton. Too bad for Carter, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Jerry Rice come on the ballot next year? If so its going to be a few years before Carter will get in[/quote]I don't know for sure if Rice gets on the ballot next year, but I would suspect he does.

Emmitt is definately on the ballot next year. Rice had that training camp run with the Broncos back in 2005, so I'm not sure if that forces him back another year.

But if it doesn't that's two spots that absolutely are taken by sure-fire hall of famers, and Carter could get pushed back another year.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=GTripp0012;524238]Lineman don't get traditional stats kept for them, but here's a cursory look at Grimm's very nice career vs. McDaniels via PFR. It's clear that McDaniels case was much stronger.
[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McDaRa00.htm"]
McDaniel[/URL]

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrimRu00.htm"]Grimm[/URL]

Grimm probably needs to do something of note with his coaching career to get elected. I'd call him 'borderline', and it's great that he's come as far as he has in the process, but he's going to keep getting passed over unless he does something as a NFL head coach, unfortunately.[/quote]

What about his contribution to AZ if they win the SB. I'm sure that will help. With a SB as a assistant HC and Line coach might that be enough?

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=44ever;524243]What about his contribution to AZ if they win the SB. I'm sure that will help. With a SB as a assistant HC and Line coach might that be enough?[/quote]I really doubt that the voters will treat his work as an assistant coach in his hall case, but I guess you never know what they are thinking.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

you know what Gtripp it's only a matter of time for him anyway. He will be a HC someday and a winner I'm sure :)

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[URL="http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9157152/Bruce-Smith,-Woodson-highlight-new-Hall-class"][COLOR=#0066cc]Canton's calling: Bruce Smith, Woodson into Hall[/COLOR][/URL]

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

I think most predicted Bruce to be a shoe in first shot. Even though Bruce being a local boy I can't consider him anything but a bill that never won the big one with that team. He was a used up when the skins picked him up (I remember a very cheap/freebie sack...and a phone call on the side line, those are 'HIS' skin highlights). But good for him.

But really hate to see Russ bypassed again. Keep hoping his day/year will come! Hope it starts with another Superbowl ring tomorrow.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=vallin21;524240]I agree with Gtripp, you're telling me Sharpe, Carter or Reed couldn't beat out Bob Hayes? Any one of those guys are equally deserving [B](if not more) [/B]to have their busts in Canton. Too bad for Carter, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Jerry Rice come on the ballot next year? If so its going to be a few years before Carter will get in[/quote]

What you're forgetting is the game back then was nothing like it is today. Carter and Sharpe no question have the stats and both were great players. But Hayes played in an era where the forward pass isn't nearly what it is today and no question he changed the way NFL defenses played coverage because of his raw speed. Also 71 TD's from 64-74 is quite impressive. I don't have a problem with this selection.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

You're forgetting that Hayes played against guys with less speed, strength, etc. Sharpe, and Carter played against guys that were as fast and as strong as them every sunday. You can disagree, but I think the level of competion Carter and Sharpe played against was higher than what Hayes played against.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=vallin21;524256]You're forgetting that Hayes played against guys with less speed, strength, etc. Sharpe, and Carter played against guys that were as fast and as strong as them every sunday. You can disagree, but I think the level of competion Carter and Sharpe played against was higher than what Hayes played against.[/quote]

Very good point. However Hayes could not help it that he was ahead of his time. If that was the case then all the old timers would never get in the HOF. Perfect example is our own Sonny Jurgenson who was one of the best pure passers of all time. Sonny was so far ahead of his time that it's not even funny. If he played in this era his numbers would be insane. Same w/ Hayes. He'd probably have much better numbers if he played in an era where you get a penalty if you look at the wr the worng way. Get what I'm saying?

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

Kind words from Daniel Snyder, in reference to Bruce Smith getting Hall of Fame nod.

[URL="http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Smith_Earns_Induction_Into_Hall_of_Fame_31669.jsp"]Smith Earns Induction Into Hall of Fame[/URL]

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=vallin21;524256]You're forgetting that Hayes played against guys with less speed, strength, etc. Sharpe, and Carter played against guys that were as fast and as strong as them every sunday. You can disagree, but I think the level of competion Carter and Sharpe played against was higher than what Hayes played against.[/quote]

He also played in an era when the rules favored the defense. I'm surprised passes were completed in the '60's. Hayes averaged over 20 yds/catch and scored a TD every 5.22 times he caught the ball. Fred Biletnikoff (who is in the HOF and was also drafted in 1965) avgd 15.2 yds/catch and scored every 7.75 times.
For anyone who likes watching an exciting gamebreaker, watch film of Hayes this summer while we are all going through NFL withdrawel.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=rypper11;524259]He also played in an era when the rules favored the defense. [B]I'm surprised passes were completed in the '60's. Hayes averaged over 20 yds/catch and scored a TD every 5.22 times he caught the ball. [/B]Fred Biletnikoff (who is in the HOF and was also drafted in 1965) avgd 15.2 yds/catch and scored every 7.75 times.
For anyone who likes watching an exciting gamebreaker, watch film of Hayes this summer while we are all going through NFL withdrawel.[/quote]

That's truly an amazing stat. The rules really didn't start to change until the late 70's and that was because of Mel Blount.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=skinsfan69;524257]Very good point. However Hayes could not help it that he was ahead of his time. If that was the case then all the old timers would never get in the HOF. Perfect example is our own Sonny Jurgenson who was one of the best pure passers of all time. Sonny was so far ahead of his time that it's not even funny. [B]If he played in this era his numbers would be insane. Same w/ Hayes. He'd probably have much better numbers if he played in an era where you get a penalty if you look at the wr the worng way.[/B] Get what I'm saying?[/quote]

I see your point. :food-smil

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

It's odd that aside from Gibbs the Redskins OL gets the most credit for the 3 Super Bowls yet none of them are considered slam dunk HOFers. OL have no stats so what makes this OL not worthy while OL from other great teams are represented. I am not one to really gripe about this sort of thing but it is odd.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

Solid HoF class. Sorry to see Grimm get left out. Extremely happy Carter didn't get in, I hope he never gets in.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=celts32;524267]It's odd that aside from Gibbs the Redskins OL gets the most credit for the 3 Super Bowls yet none of them are considered slam dunk HOFers. OL have no stats so what makes this OL not worthy while OL from other great teams are represented. I am not one to really gripe about this sort of thing but it is odd.[/quote]

Well the guys that were here the longest were Bostic, Grimm and Jacoby. Grimm was injured during the 87 season and 88- 91 he was only used in short yardage. I'm not sure Grimm had enough years starting. Bostic was a good center but not great. He was benched during the 87 year and only got his job back cause Grimm got hurt. But he did start on 3 SB winning teams. Good player but not great. That leaves Jacoby. I think Jacoby has a strong case but he moved to guard when Lachey came on so what position does he go in as? Guard or tackle? I personally think Jacoby was the best out of the group and played/started for a long time.

All the other guys like RC Thielmann, Lachey, Mackenzie, Stink and May were all good players that started on SB teams. But I wouldn't consider any of them great players. Lachey might have had a chance but injuries did him in.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

Randall McDaniel was an animal, he ate-up defenders for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Well deserved HoF bust, certainly more so than Grimm.

Glad Chris "Hatter" Carter didn't make it. Every year he doesn't make it lends credibility to the "theory of Karma."

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=skinsfan69;524282]Well the guys that were here the longest were Bostic, Grimm and Jacoby. Grimm was injured during the 87 season and 88- 91 he was only used in short yardage. I'm not sure Grimm had enough years starting. Bostic was a good center but not great. He was benched during the 87 year and only got his job back cause Grimm got hurt. But he did start on 3 SB winning teams. Good player but not great. That leaves Jacoby. I think Jacoby has a strong case but he moved to guard when Lachey came on so what position does he go in as? Guard or tackle? I personally think Jacoby was the best out of the group and played/started for a long time.

All the other guys like RC Thielmann, Lachey, Mackenzie, Stink and May were all good players that started on SB teams. But I wouldn't consider any of them great players. Lachey might have had a chance but injuries did him in.[/quote]

I agree that I thought Jacoby was probably the best of them. But if what your saying is that the Redskins assembled one of the best OL in history with a bunch of pretty good players then it would seem that Joe Bugel should have his own wing constructed in the HOF.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

All are deserving but I lived in Pgh when Woodson was in his prime and I always thought he was over-rated. All people talked about was his speed but he never seemed to run anyone down from behind. Also, Bruce Smith is and forever will be a Bill.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=irish;524294]All are deserving but I lived in Pgh when Woodson was in his prime and I always thought he was over-rated. All people talked about was his speed but he never seemed to run anyone down from behind. Also, [COLOR=SandyBrown]Bruce Smith is and forever will be a Bill[/COLOR].[/quote]

Absolutely. Just like Monk is a Skin regardless of the Jets and Eagles. However, 29 sacks in 4 years here. Wouldn't we all like to see that from Jason Taylor, even if he is remembered as a Fin.

BTW, if (and I hope not but the media thinks he's a god) Deion Sanders goes into the HOF, what team claims him?

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

No disrespect to McDaniel but how many SB rings does he have? None? How a bout Grimm? 4, possibly 5 today. Grimm was a beast just like McDaniel and as an interior lineman created huge holes for Riggo and was part of one of the most domineering OL's of all time if not the most. Grimm and Jacoby should both be in the HOF and I would have picked Grimm over McDaniel just because of what his team accomplished in that era (4 SB appearances, 3 championships). I hate all those writers that vote on the election starting with Peter "Fat****" King.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;524299]No disrespect to McDaniel but how many SB rings does he have? None? How a bout Grimm? 4, possibly 5 today. Grimm was a beast just like McDaniel and as an interior lineman created huge holes for Riggo and was part of one of the most domineering OL's of all time if not the most. Grimm and Jacoby should both be in the HOF and I would have picked Grimm over McDaniel just because of what his team accomplished in that era (4 SB appearances, 3 championships). I hate all those writers that vote on the election starting with Peter "Fat****" King.[/quote]

Thank you very much. Agree 100%

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=44ever;524300]Thank you very much. Agree 100%[/quote]

It's the truth!! I'm sick of all these writers who are enamored with the 49ers and Cowboys. The Redskins team of the 80's was as good as the 49ers if not, better, the one thing we lacked was franchise QB. If the Skins could have had a QB like Montana they would have won 6 to 7 SB in that era. Don't laugh, it's true.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;524301]It's the truth!! I'm sick of all these writers who are enamored with the 49ers and Cowboys. The Redskins team of the 80's was as good as the 49ers if not, better, the one thing we lacked was franchise QB. If the Skins could have had a QB like Montana they would have won 6 to 7 SB in that era. Don't laugh, it's true.[/quote]

I'm not laughing. The 80's Skins IMO was "The Best" The Hogs should all be HOF We were not a glamour team. I remember everytime we were in a Super Bowl my friends could not believe it. I would say don't you watch the Skins play. Most of them didn't. The media seemed to treat them the same way. Nobody ever picked them to win. They had short highlights. It's like you had to be a Skins fan to truly appretiate what they were doing.

It was all about the Cowboys and 49s

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;524299]No disrespect to McDaniel but how many SB rings does he have? None? How a bout Grimm? 4, possibly 5 today. Grimm was a beast just like McDaniel and as an interior lineman created huge holes for Riggo and was part of one of the most domineering OL's of all time if not the most. Grimm and Jacoby should both be in the HOF and I would have picked Grimm over McDaniel just because of what his team accomplished in that era (4 SB appearances, 3 championships). I hate all those writers that vote on the election starting with Peter "Fat****" King.[/quote]Well, that's also why you aren't voting on the hall of fame committee.

I don't think we really need to make self-serving arguments like this when TWO players from this era just went in for us last year, but that's just my opinion I guess.

On the field, McDaniel was way, way better than Grimm, and that's all the voters are supposed to judge on.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=GTripp0012;524309]Well, that's also why you aren't voting on the hall of fame committee.

I don't think we really need to make self-serving arguments like this when TWO players from this era just went in for us last year, but that's just my opinion I guess.

On the field, McDaniel was way, way better than Grimm, and that's all the voters are supposed to judge on.[/quote]

McDaniel was no better than Grimm, they were both as good. Show me his rings, the writers of the HOF are enamored with stats, perfect example Monk. Grimm should have been elected like Monk years ago. Don't forget Jacoby either and to show you that i'm not a homer, Derrick Thomas ahead of Charles Haley who has 5 SB and was a much better player, C'mon.

Re: 2009 Pro-Football Hall of Fame Inductees
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;524311]McDaniel was no better than Grimm, they were both as good. Show me his rings, the writers of the HOF are enamored with stats, perfect example Monk. Grimm should have been elected like Monk years ago. Don't forget Jacoby either.[/quote]I do think it's a crime that Jacoby isn't a finalist either, but at Grimms super bowl winning peak, he was a first team all pro Guard. He was a perennial pro bowler for 4 seasons and a 3 time all pro.

McDaniel was a pro bowler for 12 straight seasons, and a 7 time all pro. If Grimm wasn't injured in what should have been his prime (ages 28-31), he could have been a sure-fire hall of famer. Instead, what we are left with is a HOF finalist whose strongest argument is that he embodies the spirit of the great offensive line he played on.

I think entire units should be eligible for hall of fame inclusion. There's no doubt the "Hogs" from 1982-1992 deserve to be in the Hall. But when you start comparing individuals to individuals, we just get weak arguments like Grimm>McDaniel, which just isn't true.

Again, I think the injustice here is that the Hogs can't all go in together, after all, the strength of the unit was in numbers, not in individual greatness.