Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

Obviously Friday was big as we upgraded both lines immediately. After jumping out to a 6-2 start we can outline games that both lines basically cost us. We couldn't stop the run vs. Dallas, Baltimore and Cincinnati and our OL was a sieve vs. Pittsburgh and NYG. 3 more wins makes us an 11 win team and would represent our best record in over a decade. I think the Dockery signing was more important to our success next year because our greatest need was on the OL.

We've got a relatively young skill position core (Campbell, Cooley, Davis, Thomas, Kelly, Portis, Haynesworth, Landry, Rogers, Hall) that is a combination of proven and unproven players but we've got to be successful in '09 or else we're looking at another start over next offseason.

We still need a RT and SLB, do we still have cap room (Schneed thought we did last night) to address one of these needs in free agency?

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

To answer the title - No, but as you point out, our major needs are rt & slb. I think that RT was & still is the biggest priority. W/out an upgrade there, the nfc east & others will always load their best pass rushers on that side. Zorn seems dead set on running 4 wr sets & not keeping a rb in to block, so the system puts a lot of pressure on the tackles. Right now, I don't think Jansen or Heyer is starting material anywhere in the nfl.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

According to these numbers that uhhum I uh put together uh definitely will be worth 2.6 more wins or something like uh that.

[IMG]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o99/milrenkb/Hayens1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o99/milrenkb/Haynes2.jpg[/IMG]

The one thing that worries me though about just getting Dock for our O-Line is that we replace essentially our best lineman from last year (Kendal). So if we just get him then I see little change among our O-lineman unless

- Thomas can come back for one last hoorah
- Heyer can develop beyond what we thought he was
- Rabach can recover from last year.

Either way I think we need a RT bad weather it be Andre Smith, Michael Oher, Ray Willis, or one of the second tier tackles in the draft.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

I'm with you, however, I do think the moves we made makes it much easier for us to move down and draft maybe Britton and an LB in the second round.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;532023]I'm with you, however, I do think the moves we made makes it much easier for us to move down and draft maybe Britton and an LB in the second round.[/quote]

I'm with you on that..we made some excellent moves on the D now it's time for offense...I'd still Love a change of pace back , that runs with a purpose

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;532023]I'm with you, however, I do think the moves we made makes it much easier for us to move down and draft maybe Britton and an LB in the second round.[/quote]

TMC, I like your draft assessment and Dirtbag's projections with AH, but I disagree with Paintrain about CP being young, he's up there in both age and mileage for a RB. He has exceeded the avg. life of 4 yrs. as a RB in the NFL, and done it very well.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;532022]According to these numbers that uhhum I uh put together uh definitely will be worth 2.6 more wins or something like uh that.

[IMG]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o99/milrenkb/Hayens1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o99/milrenkb/Haynes2.jpg[/IMG]

The one thing that worries me though about just getting Dock for our O-Line is that we replace essentially our best lineman from last year (Kendal). So if we just get him then I see little change among our O-lineman unless

- Thomas can come back for one last hoorah
- Heyer can develop beyond what we thought he was
- Rabach can recover from last year.

Either way I think we need a RT bad weather it be Andre Smith, Michael Oher, Ray Willis, or one of the second tier tackles in the draft.[/quote]

Dirtbag, you need to sue ESPN, they stole your numbers and posted them as their own. :lol:

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

The o-line MUST be addressed! Our defense was number 4 last year with no pass rush, which makes me giddy inside thinking of this year... Even though our edge rushers are questionable, they should be freed up considerably more often than last year with the presence of big al in the middle.. That being said, our big problem last year was NOT the defense! IT WAAS and STILL is the OFFENSE! We need to score points! We need to extend drives, we need to bust holes to run through, and we need to protect the quaterback for sufficient time to deliver the ball to playmakers!!!!! Pheww... IN SHORT WE NEED TO FIX THE O-LINE.... or we will be 8-8 next year, because we will not score any points...... AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Redskin Jim;532134]The o-line MUST be addressed! Our defense was number 4 last year with no pass rush, which makes me giddy inside thinking of this year... Even though our edge rushers are questionable, they should be freed up considerably more often than last year with the presence of big al in the middle.. That being said, our big problem last year was NOT the defense! IT WAAS and STILL is the OFFENSE! We need to score points! We need to extend drives, we need to bust holes to run through, and we need to protect the quaterback for sufficient time to deliver the ball to playmakers!!!!! Pheww... IN SHORT WE NEED TO FIX THE O-LINE.... or we will be 8-8 next year, because we will not score any points...... AGAIN!!!!!!!!![/quote]

The o-line will be addressed in the draft.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

Thats what im hoping for... May be Heyer and Rinehart step up, we draft Smith or Oher, and Samuels, Thomas, Dock,Rabach, UH-HM Jansen are able to stay healthy and give the offense the push they need... LITERALLY. PLEASE.?!

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Redskin Jim;532134]The o-line MUST be addressed! Our defense was number 4 last year with no pass rush, which makes me giddy inside thinking of this year... Even though our edge rushers are questionable, they should be freed up considerably more often than last year with the presence of big al in the middle.. That being said, our big problem last year was NOT the defense! IT WAAS and STILL is the OFFENSE! We need to score points! We need to extend drives, we need to bust holes to run through, and we need to protect the quaterback for sufficient time to deliver the ball to playmakers!!!!! Pheww... IN SHORT WE NEED TO FIX THE O-LINE.... or we will be 8-8 next year, because we will not score any points...... AGAIN!!!!!!!!![/quote]

Lets not forget we have a more experienced team going into 09 with up and coming guys already on the team waiting their turn. So we have addressed some of the holes last year. we just have'nt seen them yet. with the addition of a few more guys aquired in the draft we should be getting pretty close. I think it will take 1 more season to be completly solid on both sides of the line.

But with what we have we should have at least a 10-6 season this year. If the WCO clicks and the D causes some turnovers/sacks and helps puts points on the board. we could see better than 10-6

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=44ever;532140]Lets not forget we have a more experienced team going into 09 with up and coming guys already on the team waiting their turn. So we have addressed some of the holes last year. we just have'nt seen them yet. with the addition of a few more guys aquired in the draft we should be getting pretty close. I think it will take 1 more season to be completly solid on both sides of the line.

But with what we have we should have at least a 10-6 season this year. If the WCO clicks and the D causes some turnovers/sacks and helps puts points on the board. we could see better than 10-6[/quote]
I agree that we should be improved from last year, but, to get back on track of the thread, I don't think that AH And Dock = 3 wins... My only defense of my opinion is the age and inability of the o line to stay healthy. REMEMBER Dock is replacing Kendall, who was the most consistant player on the line...

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

I think we should trade up in the draft, maybe a few spots just to ensure that we get a solid RT. There are a lot of teams that have a need at Tackle, and I don't think San Fran is gonna pass on Smith. I think we are one solid Tackle, and one linebacker away from bieng a 10-6 or better team.

I think we should lock up Angelo Crowell, if we still have room; and swap picks with Jax, maybe trade next years third or something, and were golden

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Redskin Jim;532146]I agree that we should be improved from last year, but, to get back on track of the thread, I don't think that AH And Dock = 3 wins... My only defense of my opinion is the age and inability of the o line to stay healthy. REMEMBER Dock is replacing Kendall, who was the most consistant player on the line...[/quote]

I think the one guy everyone is over looking is Portis. If we fail to go to a 2 back system this season. I think the odds are we will lose Portis to injury and it won't matter if we have AH or anyone else. But to get back on topic. I think AH = 2 more wins. For two reasons
1) field position
2) turn overs.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

Didn't HB Blades do well at SLB last year?

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Duffman003;532156]Didn't HB Blades do well at SLB last year?[/quote]

He was decent but not a playmaker. We may be able to get bye w/ Blades if big Al stays healthy for a whole season but i think we need another legit starter just for depth. Very hard to pass on Rey M at 13 IMHO because of this situation; however Jason and the offense deserves a franchise tackle. This will be a the quandary going into the draft. I so wish we could free up more space to grab Willis cuz at least he's a mauler in the run game. Oh well.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=The Goat;532164]He was decent but not a playmaker. We may be able to get bye w/ Blades if big Al stays healthy for a whole season but i think we need another legit starter just for depth. Very hard to pass on Rey M at 13 IMHO because of this situation; however Jason and the offense deserves a franchise tackle. This will be a the quandary going into the draft. I so wish we could free up more space to grab Willis cuz at least he's a mauler in the run game. Oh well.[/quote]

Blades biggest problem was probably pass coverage. He's more then fine against the run but covering a Tight End on a crossing route....he's just a liability at that point.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;532166]Blades biggest problem was probably pass coverage. He's more then fine against the run but covering a Tight End on a crossing route....he's just a liability at that point.[/quote]

Yeah cuz he's 5-10 and 250 friggin lbs. He's not an OLB period but may be a decent MLB in our system eventually. I think it would be a shame for us to have spent all this dough on d in the offseason but have a gaping hole at SLB that allows teams to exploit us all season. Would also be shame to waste JT's talent @ SLB. I keep coming back to the thought that we've got a shit-ton of talent on d right now but putting the pieces together will take some work.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=44ever;532155]I think the one guy everyone is over looking is Portis. If we fail to go to a 2 back system this season. I think the odds are we will lose Portis to injury and it won't matter if we have AH or anyone else. But to get back on topic. I think AH = 2 more wins. For two reasons
1) field position
2) turn overs.[/quote]

ditto that. if you fire randle-el from return duty and have AH giving you short fields, it should make jason's job a lot easier.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

No, the o line is still weak and they are protecting a QB that cant get the job done. The O averaged 16 ppg last year and swapping out 1 lineman IMO wont increase the points scored. Its the QB holding the O back and until that position is upgraded its gonna be the same old ineffective O.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=irish;532192]No, the o line is still weak and they are protecting a QB that cant get the job done. The O averaged 16 ppg last year and swapping out 1 lineman IMO wont increase the points scored. Its the QB holding the O back and until that position is upgraded its gonna be the same old ineffective O.[/quote]

Yea, the key is still the O scoring more points. Dock will help but the O has to get more productive and effecient. No points, no wins.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

Rey M. would be nice, but Oline CANNOT be ignored in draft. OT at 13... unless the top tier is gone already.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

3 more wins? No. but I think the team is looking for more then simply 3 more wins. I like to think they were looking for someone who would be a difference maker and help us beat the Giants. Then they looked at the teams that made it to the play offs and realized that if we didn't beat them we came close. I think the FO saw the team as being very close to a SB team and wanted someone who would push the defense to the next level and that was Haynesworth.

As far as Dockery I think we got lucky. The team has not been happy about letting him go and having a hard time filling his role. The Bills screw up a trade deal and Dockery became a UFA. He kinda fell into our laps. I think the team knew we needed him and that he would enable us to pick up other spots in the draft.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

Wow, that all depends? I don't see Dockery being a huge difference. Kendall was good. I think Derrick will probably play only slightly better if anything than Pete, at best.

If he (Dockery) doesn't try to run in a recovered ball then there's one win.

Now Haynesworth is another story. Like him or love him the man is a stud DT. Since our D wasn't that bad to begin with, having him there might be the difference. Being able to stuff Jacobs and Barber will make us more competitive against the NFC East. Will that result in a win?

We play the Bucs, Panthers, and Chargers this year. With him there we can help stop their run game.

If he stays healthy and performs, he make us stronger against good teams and helps the D smother the bad ones like Oakland and Detroit. I think he'll lead more forced throws leading to interceptions.

Will he and Dockery lead to three games? At the most, maybe two. Those two will be the easier teams that we should beat anyway. Wins will be on the O not the D.

Then again if we make teams one dimensional we should be able to win three more games maybe more. (Low 9-7 Mid 10-6 High 11-5)

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

No, definitely not worth 3 wins. Our big issue last year was our offense, namely our scoring offense. In order to be successful I think we need to:
1. Have a much better offense inside the red zone.
2. Spell Portis. It happens every year, we beat the hell out of Portis, then late in the year he's dead. Split carries early and often.
3. AH staying healthy. He will not play 16 games. Get that out of your mind now, but hopefully he can play his 14. Here are AH's numbers for his entire career (most recent first)(14, 13, 11, 14, 10, 12, 16. Those are games played, too. Not games started.)

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

I think last season AH(assuming he was not hurt in these games) alone would have been worth 3 wins:
the St. Louis game - because there is no way the last hail mary that set up the field goal gets thrown
the 2nd Dallas game- where they ran it down our throat in the fourth qtr.
apply the above rational to the SF game.

As for next year. only time will tell.
(I think Dockery only keeps us at a level, assuming Kendall would decline with age this year)

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Daseal;533580]No, definitely not worth 3 wins. Our big issue last year was our offense, namely our scoring offense. In order to be successful I think we need to:
1. Have a much better offense inside the red zone.
2. Spell Portis. It happens every year, we beat the hell out of Portis, then late in the year he's dead. Split carries early and often.
3. AH staying healthy. He will not play 16 games. Get that out of your mind now, but hopefully he can play his 14. Here are AH's numbers for his entire career (most recent first)(14, 13, 11, 14, 10, 12, 16. Those are games played, too. Not games started.)[/quote]

well, on AH - if the team doubles its sack count and get a few more ints, you'll have shorter fields to help the offensive scoring...

not saying the O can just show up and win without some work, but it should be easier.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

When you figure we (shamefully) lost to Cincinnati, St. Louis, and San Francisco, I'd say, yes, Haynesworth and Dockery are worth three wins. Both players are big maulers that will limit and prolong offensive drives respectively. I do think Betts or someone else needs to step up (10-15 carries at 4 yds/rush) to take some of the load off CP. And Kelly and Thomas need to become reliable wr's. Santana can be explosive but teams figured out how to shut him down and the passing game suffered for it.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

If our two young WR end up being busts it won't matter much how Dockery performs. Haynesworth is good for a win or two by himself if he indeed gives us what he gave the Titans. Still, outside of Moss, our WR corp is rather pathetic. The one guy in the TO thread threw out how Holt wants out of St Louis. Holt might be worth pursuing. Thrash sucks, ARE is overrated, and the youngsters just might end up being busts. I would consider trading ARE to St. Louis for Holt.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;534922][B]If our two young WR end up being busts[/B] it won't matter much how Dockery performs. Haynesworth is good for a win or two by himself if he indeed gives us what he gave the Titans. Still, outside of Moss, our WR corp is rather pathetic. The one guy in the TO thread threw out how Holt wants out of St Louis. Holt might be worth pursuing. Thrash sucks, ARE is overrated, [B]and the youngsters just might end up being busts.[/B] I would consider trading ARE to St. Louis for Holt.[/quote]

I think you're being too pessimistic about the rookies and too premature to predict that they are going to be busts.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;534922]If our two young WR end up being busts it won't matter much how Dockery performs. Haynesworth is good for a win or two by himself if he indeed gives us what he gave the Titans. Still, outside of Moss, our WR corp is rather pathetic. The one guy in the TO thread threw out how Holt wants out of St Louis. Holt might be worth pursuing. Thrash sucks, ARE is overrated, and the youngsters just might end up being busts. I would consider trading ARE to St. Louis for Holt.[/quote]

Trading ARL ain't happening (look at the cap spreadsheet).

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Paintrain;532019]Obviously Friday was big as we upgraded both lines immediately. After jumping out to a 6-2 start we can outline games that both lines basically cost us. We couldn't stop the run vs. Dallas, Baltimore and Cincinnati and our OL was a sieve vs. Pittsburgh and NYG. 3 more wins makes us an 11 win team and would represent our best record in over a decade. I think the Dockery signing was more important to our success next year because our greatest need was on the OL.

We've got a relatively young skill position core (Campbell, Cooley, Davis, Thomas, Kelly, Portis, Haynesworth, Landry, Rogers, Hall) that is a combination of proven and unproven players but we've got to be successful in '09 or else we're looking at another start over next offseason.

We still need a RT and SLB, do we still have cap room (Schneed thought we did last night) to address one of these needs in free agency?[/quote]

didn't read post, only title

hard to say, how can anyone guess that?

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

You have to remember the fact we now have an expierenced coach equals one more win.
The whole team running the same system one more win.
AH, Dockery, and second year receivers equal 1 more win.

It is not just one thing it is a multiple of things.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=skinsfan242;535012]You have to remember the fact we now have an expierenced coach equals one more win.
The whole team running the same system one more win.
AH, Dockery, and second year receivers equal 1 more win.

It is not just one thing it is a multiple of things.[/quote]Well, two of those things aren't reasons that the team would win more.

In the NFL, coaches represent a neutral entity. You can make the argument that we'll win one more game this year because of improved coaching, but you also have to be out on the limb that Zorn and Co. made so many terrible decisions last year that they were [U]chiefly responsible for 1.0 losses in 2008.[/U] That would be a really, historically bad season, maybe up there with 2001 Morningweg, or an average season from Bruce Coslet.

Basically, I'm saying there's no reason to expect noticeable improvement due to Zorn, because Zorn's inexperience wasn't a reason we lost last year. It just sort of was.

BTW, even given the above, you can't say that the familiarity with the system equals another win. 1) Same issue as above. Did we make so many mistakes by not knowing the plays that we lost a game solely because of it? Doubt it. 2) If you weren't trying to point out that the lack of familiarity with the system was a result of Zorn's inexperience, what exactly were you saying in the first point.

I think you argued that Zorn's experience with the players should be worth a win, and then the players expereince with Zorn is worth another win. Um, what?

The rest of your post I agree with. The current Washington Redskins are about one win better than they were in 2008 thanks to Haynesworth and Dockery AND the expected development of the receivers, minus no Jason Taylor, no Marcus Washington, and no Shawn Springs.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

Hell, if Zorn just learns to manage the clock, we'd win two or three more games.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=Redskin Jim;532146]I agree that we should be improved from last year, but, to get back on track of the thread, I don't think that AH And Dock = 3 wins... My only defense of my opinion is the age and inability of the o line to stay healthy. REMEMBER Dock is replacing Kendall, who was the most consistant player on the line...[/quote]

"Seeing the ball loose, Kendall grabbed it. Then, instead of playing it safe, he inexplicably tried to run with it. Tinoisamoa hit him, forcing a fumble that Oshiomogho Atogwe scooped up and raced 75 yards to the end zone to send St. Louis into halftime with the lead en route to the stunning 19-17 victory."

With this one and another game or two where the Offense provided nothing but 3 and outs we would have made the playoffs and done well.

I'm still pissed about that loss and Kendal.

Re: Will Haynesworth and Dockery be worth 3 wins?
 

[quote=skinsfan242;535012]You have to remember the fact we now have an expierenced coach equals one more win.
The whole team running the same system one more win.
AH, Dockery, and second year receivers equal 1 more win.

It is not just one thing it is a multiple of things.[/quote]

The Def wasn't bad and now it's better. Won't miss Springs one bit.

The OL OL OL OL OL OL OL OL OL OL OL OL needs work. Blocking for Campbell is the key improvement area.