How Low Can It Go?
 

Updated List: Dow 7223 on 3/13/2008

jsarno: 6000
Schneed10: 6000
Mattyk72: 6000
SmootSmack: 5800
over the mountain: 5800
firstdown: 5700
djnemo65: 5500
GMScud: 5100
redskinjim: 5000
Saden1: 5000 (not out of the question)
CRedskinsRule: 4950
FRPLG: 4900
Slingin Sammy 33: 4800
GTripp0012: 4740
Miller101: 4000
Buster: 3500
70Chip: 3499
Chimpy: 1800
That Guy: < 0 (possibly)

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

and from the bastion of conservatism (sarcasm) USA Today:

[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/money/markets/2009-03-02-stocks-monday_N.htm"]Stocks fall to lowest level since 1997 as Dow drops below 6,800 - USATODAY.com[/URL]

from the article: "It's a bloodbath, pure and simple," says Scott Black, president and portfolio manager at Delphi Management. "This is a vote of no confidence in the Obama administration. It doesn't matter what you own, everything is going down. It is a total capitulation. People are just terrorized and are throwing in the towel."

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

I wish I had money to invest right now. I'd buy Ford and General Electric. GE was at 7$ bucks a share. If they do turn around some people are going to make a lot of money.

Smart people make money in a down economy. I just wish I was smarter at this type of thing.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

AIG is doing a great job at dragging the market down right now.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

5000 you heard it on bloomberg last week!!

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

How low will it go? It depends on how many more times Obama speaks in public.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;533164]and from the bastion of conservatism (sarcasm) USA Today:

[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/money/markets/2009-03-02-stocks-monday_N.htm"]Stocks fall to lowest level since 1997 as Dow drops below 6,800 - USATODAY.com[/URL]

from the article: "It's a bloodbath, pure and simple," says Scott Black, president and portfolio manager at Delphi Management. "This is a vote of no confidence in the Obama administration. It doesn't matter what you own, everything is going down. It is a total capitulation. People are just terrorized and are throwing in the towel."[/quote]

I have an asshole too and I am capable of taking a dump. The good news is Mr. Black won't pay just 15% capital gains tax on his income, and Delphi Management will be regulated and their investments portfolio will become transparent.

Haters are out in full force, Lord Obama warned us about people like Mr. Black.

[quote]I know they're gearing up for a fight as we speak. My message to them is this: So am I.[/quote]

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

I am pretty sure 0 is the lowest, but let's hope everyone/someone/anyone gets a clue before than

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

can't go past 0... or can it?

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

The real question is how low will it stay and for how long? At this point 5000 is not out of the question.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

if you look at history when the market goes up and down in wild swings they called them suckers rallys in the great depression.this is now a mini depression the stock market is like a casino it will let you win a little but take every dime you have before you know what hit you

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

i have a friend who has made a lot of money and is retired he says now is the time to invest.cause the market always comes back.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=redskinjim;533201]i have a friend who has made a lot of money and is retired he says now is the time to invest.cause the market always comes back.[/quote]

That is true but for retired people with all their savings in the market they are getting hammered. Most people do not realize that as you start to get close to retiring you should move your money to fixed products so you know its safe. Then maybe keep some made money in the market to play around with.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

I've begun to increase my monthly contributions to my retirement accounts and to my daughter's 529 (she's 2).

Now is a very smart time to steadily buy back in - [B]if you have 10 years or more before you need the money[/B].

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

where else can a person put money ? real estate is cheap again

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

Call me an optimist, but I do not see it going below 6000. This is going to rebound soon.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

i'd assume companies like GE or whatnot could be good buys.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

Microsoft is pretty low too, there's a lot of bargains out there, the question is how much lower are things going to go?

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=saden1;533192]I have an asshole too and I am capable of taking a dump.[/quote]That's good news, glad to hear it. :Flush:
[quote]The good news is Mr. Black won't pay just 15% capital gains tax on his income, and Delphi Management will be regulated and their investments portfolio will become transparent.[/quote]Increasing the capital gains tax in the middle of a severe recession isn't good news and is a factor keeping the market in its downward spiral. Over-regulation isn't a good thing, transparency is.

[quote]Haters are out in full force, Lord Obama warned us about people like Mr. Black.[/quote]Mr. Black's response was no shock, as I'm sure most folks on Wall Street and those who understand the economy and invesments feel the same way. However the fact that USA Today quoted him and printed it on the front page is surprising.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=saden1;533192]I have an asshole too and I am capable of taking a dump. The good news is Mr. Black won't pay just 15% capital gains tax on his income, and Delphi Management will be regulated and their investments portfolio will become transparent.

Haters are out in full force, Lord Obama warned us about people like Mr. Black.[/quote]

What I don't understand is why Mr. Black is saying that this tanking is Obama's fault...............this market has been tanking for a year now. Obama just got here. If anything its Black's fault! He's been working there this whole time!

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;533274]That's good news, glad to hear it. :Flush:
Increasing the capital gains tax in the middle of a severe recession isn't good news and is a factor keeping the market in its downward spiral. Over-regulation isn't a good thing, transparency is.

Mr. Black's response was no shock, as I'm sure most folks on Wall Street and those who understand the economy and invesments feel the same way. However the fact that USA Today quoted him and printed it on the front page is surprising.[/quote]

I believe the capital gains tax will go up from 15% to 20% two years from now, which isn't going to break backs. Top income earners won't escape being taxed at 39% by taking all their incomes in the form of capital gains, everyone should want the closure of this loophole.

As for Mr. Black, he's another Santelli, a little bitch by all account. These folks haven't yet figured out that the tea party has already been had and was lead by Obama.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=Miller101;533303]What I don't understand is why Mr. Black is saying that this tanking is Obama's fault...............this market has been tanking for a year now. Obama just got here. If anything its Black's fault! He's been working there this whole time![/quote]


I think the fighting has begun, fortunately these people are not very bright.

I mean seriously, the guy wants more respect and understanding all the while advocating for a tea party? He thinks the press secretary is threatening him? Wat a f'ing retard.

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Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

I really didn't want to have a debate about whose fault it is, as that debate will be ongoing for many months in many forums. I was more interested in getting folks on the record as to where they think the bottom is, kind of like an office pool.

Having said that, I sense a defensive tone from the Democrats on the stock market. Of course Obama cannot yet be held responsible for the bulk of the nasty economic indicators we see, but the stock market is a little different. It tends to react more to events in real time - Fed action, earnings reports, wars and natural disasters, etc. That is not to say that the underlying fundamentals are not shit, but I do think the feckless response of Geithner for example, has not been helpful. It's also why all the Democrats are talking about Rush Limbaugh right now. They would prefer to wait for some sign of recovery and THEN talk about the economy. That's the way it goes.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

3500.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=saden1;533322]I believe the capital gains tax will go up from 15% to 20% two years from now, which isn't going to break backs. Top income earners won't escape being taxed at 39% by taking all their incomes in the form of capital gains, everyone should want the closure of this loophole.[/quote]The top income earners are the ones for the most part who create jobs and run businesses, if their effective tax rate will more than double, it will negatively affect a market that's already weak. Obama's policies and economic plan are not sound for putting the economy on track. He's directly attacking the folks that pay over 1/3 of federal taxes in the U.S. and indirectly hurting a far greater percentage with the capital gains increase. A capital gains increase will cause stocks to drop. It doesn't matter if he's delaying it two years, it's coming and people know it. The market is struggling and the solution appears to be increase taxes and spend on programs that are additional benefit programs, pork, or won't create jobs in the near term.

It doesn't matter at this point who put us in this situation because arguing that point fixes nothing. The plan he's putting forth is bad and the market is reacting appropriately. Unfortunately the majority of the American people don't understand the situation.

[quote]As for Mr. Black, he's another Santelli, a little bitch by all account. These folks haven't yet figured out that the tea party has already been had and was lead by Obama.[/quote]You're missing or ignoring my point, I couldn't care less about Black (IMO he's right) or Santelli (yes, he does sound like a soft, little bitch putting his accusations off on his wife and friends). USA Today leans pretty hard to the left and was a big Obama supporter in the election. Now they're running charts diagraming the deficit under Obama and how it's going to get drastically worse, and printing the quote from Black on the front page. It appears the folks who had the tea party are finally realizing when you dump the tea you've got nothing left to have with your crumpets.

And while we're using that analogy, if I remember my U.S. history courses, the Boston Tea Party was over taxation without representation. I would argue that the high income earners are in almost the same situation as the American revolutionaries in that the Dems have succeeded in their class warfare arguments and convinced a majority of folks that it's OK to put a far greater tax percentage on those who are successful and when things go south just tax those folks more. The high income earners are so far outnumbered they have little to no chance to win at the ballot box.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=70Chip;533338][B]Of course Obama cannot yet be held responsible for the bulk of the nasty economic indicators we see,[/B] but the stock market is a little different. It tends to react more to events in real time - Fed action, earnings reports, wars and natural disasters, etc. [B]That is not to say that the underlying fundamentals are not shit[/B], but I do think the feckless response of Geithner for example, has not been helpful. It's also why all the Democrats are talking about Rush Limbaugh right now. They would prefer to wait for some sign of recovery and THEN talk about the economy. That's the way it goes.[/quote]But the Democratic controlled Congress (that approves all spending) sure can.

The basic fundamentals of the economy (productivity per worker, etc) are still sound. The mortage/housing crisis was the cause of the mess up until the election. The market appeared stabilized even after Obama's election at about 9K. After he began announcing his economic policies is when the market tanked to under 7K.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=saden1;533322]I believe the capital gains tax will go up from 15% to 20% two years from now, which isn't going to break backs. Top income earners won't escape being taxed at 39% by taking all their incomes in the form of capital gains, everyone should want the closure of this loophole.

As for Mr. Black, he's another Santelli, a little bitch by all account. These folks haven't yet figured out that the tea party has already been had and was lead by Obama.[/quote]

Good idea make people less rich. Retarded.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=70Chip;533338]I really didn't want to have a debate about whose fault it is, as that debate will be ongoing for many months in many forums. I was more interested in getting folks on the record as to where they think the bottom is, kind of like an office pool.

Having said that, I sense a defensive tone from the Democrats on the stock market. Of course Obama cannot yet be held responsible for the bulk of the nasty economic indicators we see, but the stock market is a little different. It tends to react more to events in real time - Fed action, earnings reports, wars and natural disasters, etc. That is not to say that the underlying fundamentals are not shit, but I do think the feckless response of Geithner for example, has not been helpful. It's also why all the Democrats are talking about Rush Limbaugh right now. They would prefer to wait for some sign of recovery and THEN talk about the economy. That's the way it goes.[/quote]

Thank you.

I love it. Obama can do no wrong for all the cult followers. I gave this dope Obama a chance but his policies have investors scared shitless and he is killing the market. That will contnue to degrade consumer confidence. Rinse/repeat. Simple idiocy.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=saden1;533322]I believe the capital gains tax will go up from 15% to 20% two years from now, which isn't going to break backs. Top income earners won't escape being taxed at 39% by taking all their incomes in the form of capital gains, everyone should want the closure of this loophole.

As for Mr. Black, he's another Santelli, a little bitch by all account. These folks haven't yet figured out that the tea party has already been had and was lead by Obama.[/quote]

Please explain how top income earners escape higher taxes by taking all their income as capital gains?

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=FRPLG;533364]Thank you.

I love it. Obama can do no wrong for all the cult followers. I gave this dope Obama a chance but his policies have investors scared shitless and he is killing the market. That will contnue to degrade consumer confidence. Rinse/repeat. Simple idiocy.[/quote]

A wise edit.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;533372]A wise edit.[/quote]
For sure.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

Seriously, that's the best you guys got? The rich "create jobs" and "make people less rich?" I guess returning the capital gains tax to the same level as Reagan and restoring the tax bracket to the same state as Clinton is a bad idea. If the economy recovers in two years will you be for these tax hikes?

I am not ignoring your point SS33, I see your hand and I believe it's being played two years too soon. Your take is wanting and your cards leave much to be desired my friend, it's time to fold and watch the game.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=saden1;533383]Seriously, that's the best you guys got? The rich "create jobs" and "make people less rich?" I guess returning the capital gains tax to the same level as Reagan and restoring the tax bracket to the same state as Clinton is a bad idea.

I am not ignoring your point SS33, I see your hand and I believe it's being played two years too soon. Your take is wanting and your cards leave much to be desired my friend, it's time to fold and watch the game.[/quote]

How does making people less rich help our economy. At any level. Taking money from consumers, be they rich or poor is bad for our econmoy. And anyways we're talking about the stock market here. People are crapping themselves right now over the market. People are pulling out, driving prices down, killing wealth because they fear what is going down in DC. Is it rational? I don't know but it is what is happening.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=firstdown;533370]Please explain how top income earners escape higher taxes by taking all their income as capital gains?[/quote]

Saden I'd still like you to explain this.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=FRPLG;533386][B]How does making people less rich help our economy. At any level. Taking money from consumers, be they rich or poor is bad for our econmoy.[/B] And anyways we're talking about the stock market here. People are crapping themselves right now over the market. People are pulling out, driving prices down, killing wealth because they fear what is going down in DC. Is it rational? I don't know but it is what is happening.[/quote]

The premise of your argument is that taxes make people less rich which is bad for our economy. My question is at what threshold of taxation do we reach an equilibrium? Not too much taxes to be harmful to our economy and not too little to be beneficial to our economy?

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=firstdown;533393]Saden I'd still like you to explain this.[/quote]

He's a liberal working for a liberal paper but he explains [URL="http://select.nytimes.com/2007/07/13/opinion/13krugman.html?_r=1"]the game[/URL] very well. BTW the game isn't limited to just hedge fund managers either. Those CEOs paying themselves $1 a year mostly pay 15% tax rate.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=saden1;533398]He's a liberal working for a liberal paper but he explains [URL="http://select.nytimes.com/2007/07/13/opinion/13krugman.html?_r=1"]the game[/URL] very well. BTW the game isn't limited to just hedge fund managers either. Those CEOs paying themselves $1 a year mostly pay 15% tax rate.[/quote]

His article never mentioned CEO's and paying them self a $1 and where is that now coming from because last time it was they are paid too much. The article pointed to hedge fund mgrs. who use a loopole (spelling?) to get around paying taxes as ordinary income. Why not just close the loopole to stop that and leave the capital gains tax alone. That way both sides get what they want.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=saden1;533383]Seriously, that's the best you guys got? The rich "create jobs" and "make people less rich?" [B]I guess returning the capital gains tax to the same level as Reagan and restoring the tax bracket to the same state as Clinton is a bad idea.[/B] If the economy recovers in two years will you be for these tax hikes?[/quote]Right now it's definitely a bad idea. I've got no problem to return the tax code to the 1986 Tax Reform Act once the economy is stabilized and the markets rebound. I think President Obama should look back at Reagan's strategies and policies and how he pulled us out of the Carter debacle in the 70s. If he wants to be successful, he must buck his party line and be fiscally conservative. If he wants to be socially liberal, I couldn't care less, we must put the country back on solid financial ground not more than double the national debt in ten years.

[quote]I am not ignoring your point SS33, I see your hand and I believe it's being played two years too soon. Your take is wanting and your cards leave much to be desired my friend, it's time to fold and watch the game.[/quote]I pray you're right, but historical evidence shows my cards to be a bit stronger than you believe. I know we are polar opposites politically, however I can't see how you can support budget projections from the Obama administration that will double the national debt. How, four or eight years from now, will this have a positive outcome? I can't see it.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

Haha, yeah this is Obama's fault. Nevermind the fact the entire global economy is in a tailspin and every country's stock market is bottoming out. I guess that's Obama's fault too.

Interesting to see that those who bristled when the left blamed Bush for everything are turning around and doing the same thing to our current president.

Re: How Low Can It Go?
 

[quote=firstdown;533405]His article never mentioned CEO's and paying them self a $1 and where is that now coming from because last time it was they are paid too much. The article pointed to hedge fund mgrs. who use a loopole (spelling?) to get around paying taxes as ordinary income. Why not just close the loopole to stop that and leave the capital gains tax alone. That way both sides get what they want.[/quote]

He doesn't mention it but people are playing games like that. Typically CEOs pay themselves a decent salary but they turn around and get good chunk of pay via [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incentive_stock_option"]incentive based stock options[/URL] to pay less effective tax rate. Fortunately these cheats are impeded by [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Minimum_Tax"]AMT[/URL].