OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Bring a lunch ... :cool:

[B]Redskins OL: Tale of the Tape[/B]
[I]April 8, 2009[/I]

Continuing the offseason look into the current state of the [URL="http://www.theomfield.com/2008/12/breaking-down-lines-pt-1.html"]Redskins lines of scrimmage[/url] and how they arrived there ...

During the Pittsburgh and Baltimore games in weeks nine and ten last year, it became crystal clear to me that the Redskins were simply overmatched on the offensive line of scrimmage. As a result, I have been thinking (okay borderline obsessing) about how the Redskins stack up against the NFL in those areas ever since, and the notion I’ve had in my head is that the Redskins were not only older than most teams on the line, but smaller as well.

Taking a quick break, therefore, from pondering the combination of offensive tackles, defensive ends and linebackers the Redskins [B]will[/B] surely draft later this month, I thought I would put that unsubstantiated impression to the test.

Setting aside for today the comparative skill levels of the players involved, as well as how their skill sets might fit the schemes they are being asked to run (a factor in the transition from a Gibbs/Saunders offense to Jim Zorn's that cannot be overlooked), I started by looking at the three other NFC East teams ...

[I][URL="http://www.theomfield.com/2009/04/redskins-ol-tale-of-tape.html"][B]CLICK HERE[/B][/url] to read more[/I]

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Top notch work.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=-Om-;544205]Bring a lunch ... :cool:

[B]Redskins OL: Tale of the Tape[/B]
[I]April 8, 2009[/I]

Continuing the offseason look into the current state of the [URL="http://www.theomfield.com/2008/12/breaking-down-lines-pt-1.html"]Redskins lines of scrimmage[/url] and how they arrived there ...

During the Pittsburgh and Baltimore games in weeks nine and ten last year, it became crystal clear to me that the Redskins were simply overmatched on the offensive line of scrimmage. As a result, I have been thinking (okay borderline obsessing) about how the Redskins stack up against the NFL in those areas ever since, and the notion I’ve had in my head is that the Redskins were not only [B]older than most teams on the line, but smaller as well.[/B]

Taking a quick break, therefore, from pondering the combination of offensive tackles, defensive ends and linebackers the Redskins [B]will[/B] surely draft later this month, I thought I would put that unsubstantiated impression to the test.

Setting aside for today the comparative skill levels of the players involved, as well as how their skill sets might fit the schemes they are being asked to run (a factor in the transition from a Gibbs/Saunders offense to Jim Zorn's that cannot be overlooked), I started by looking at the three other NFC East teams ...

[I][URL="http://www.theomfield.com/2009/04/redskins-ol-tale-of-tape.html"][B]CLICK HERE[/B][/url] to read more[/I][/quote]

Great job Om! Casey Rabach - 31yo. - 6'4 - 288lbs. Alex Mack - 23yo. - 6'4 - 316lbs.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

It's amazing when you think how "small" the Hogs were compared to today's OL

Nice work

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

I disagree that we need big O-Lineman. What we need for one is guys who can protect which usually falls under the finese type. The fact of the matter is if a guy has good enough footwork he can be very effective as a run blocker even if he's a waller instead of a mauler. In fact it's even more important in our system where with Zorn at the helm we're encorporating more outside runs so guys that can run as well as get to the second level are at a premnium.

Part of the reason I love Eben Britton is his ability to recognize and pick up blitzes. That asset will be invaluable to us. Plus his style fits an outside running scheme and if we can get teams to fear the pass again then the running game will get to the point where we can average 4.5 to 5.0 ypc.

Sure it would be nice to get an Andre Smith but part of me would rather of Britton over Oher and Smith. His athletism, size (well height), and youth would give this line a huge boost as well as a nice insurance policy for Samuals. However I'll surely be fine with any of the top 5 tackles should we end up taking one (fingers crossed).

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

nice write-up

sidenote: I think that you should reduce your page margins, even on a high rest your article is very narrow, makes for a lot of scrolling and choppy delivery

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Good job, Om.

I agree with the age argument and wearing down as the season went along, but I am on the fence about the size argument though.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=warriorzpath;544244]Good job, Om.

I agree with the age argument and wearing down as the season went along, but I am on the fence about the size argument though.[/quote]

With regard to the size argument I know that the Ravens definitely have that mindset. In fact I think that's probably part of the reason they drafted Joe Flacco. He was the only QB available that could see over the giants that is the Ravens O-Line.

It's like Adam Terry - 6'8, Chad Slaughter 6'8, Jared Gaither 6'9, and before that John Ogden at 6'9.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

As far as weight goes, I can defininitely see the argument for wanting bigger guys in the middle. There are a lot of 300lb. plus DT's in this league. A 288lb lineman taking on increasingly bigger DT's is not a pretty sight. Especially when trying to get a "PUSH" up the middle. Since DE's are not as "weighty" it might not be as important for an OT.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;544246]With regard to the size argument I know that the Ravens definitely have that mindset. In fact I think that's probably part of the reason they drafted Joe Flacco. He was the only QB available that could see over the giants that is the Ravens O-Line.

It's like Adam Terry - 6'8, Chad Slaughter 6'8, Jared Gaither 6'9, and before that John Ogden at 6'9.[/quote]


But I think that there's an argument that can be made that size can be a hindrance to an offensive lineman if you are looking for a more athletic line that can do more than the regular power running game, which I think the ravens seem to be built for.

And that all depends on what kind of identity you want for your team.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=warriorzpath;544250]But I think that there's an argument that can be made that size can be a hindrance to an offensive lineman if you are looking for a more athletic line that can do more than the regular power running game, which I think the ravens seem to be built for.

And that all depends on what kind of identity you want for your team.[/quote]

The Hogs were synonymous with power running and, of course, Joe Bugel was their coach. I think that may be relevant to today's team because I read a recent interview with Joe Bugel where he said (to paraphrase) that he just asks the FO to give him big linemen and he can take it from there. So I don't don't think that Joe's approach has changed any.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544249]As far as weight goes, I can defininitely see the argument for wanting bigger guys in the middle. There are a lot of 300lb. plus DT's in this league. A 288lb lineman taking on increasing bigger DT's is not a pretty sight. Especially when trying to get a "PUSH" up the middle. Since DE's are not as "weighty" it might not be as important for an OT.[/quote]

I think you make a valid point. The good news is that the top 5 centers in this year's draft are all over 6-3 and 300 lbs. There are also some monster guards who I think can play, such as Duke Robinson (6-5 329), Kraig Urbik (6-5 328), and Luis Vasquez (6-5 333). There is also the humongeous Herman Johnson who goes 6-7 356.

We need more draft picks!

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

I think that with the prevalence of the 3-4 on many capable teams that they should emphasize more on size with the middle linemen(G and C), provided that they are comptent linemen, of course.
Steve Young wanted one the Cowboys o-lines when Norv was there in some article he wrote on ESPN way back in 2002, and that line was made for Norv's Coryell(link: [url=http://assets.espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/popularity.html]ESPN.com: NFL - Young: Scheme can be QB's best friend[/url]).

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;544268]I think that with the prevalence of the 3-4 on many capable teams that they should emphasize more on size with the middle linemen(G and C), provided that they are comptent linemen, of course.
Steve Young wanted one the Cowboys o-lines when Norv was there in some article he wrote on ESPN way back in 2002, and that line was made for Norv's Coryell(link: [url=http://assets.espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/popularity.html]ESPN.com: NFL - Young: Scheme can be QB's best friend[/url]).[/quote]

Thats a really good article!

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Good analysis. I was thinking the same thing (see #2) :food-smil

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/27766-more-portis.html#post519113[/URL]

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544249]As far as weight goes, I can defininitely see the argument for wanting bigger guys in the middle. There are a lot of 300lb. plus DT's in this league. [B]A 288lb lineman taking on increasingly bigger DT's is not a pretty sight. [/B]Especially when trying to get a "PUSH" up the middle. Since DE's are not as "weighty" it might not be as important for an OT.[/quote]

Word...I mean there's been some debate whether Rabach's size is a factor in his paltry performance. I tend to think it makes a difference. He's 6-4 and under 290 making him almost "lanky" for an interior lineman. If he was 6-1 and the same weight, w/ a lower center of gravity, he'd probably get pushed around far less than he currently does. I'm on board w/ the Mack movement 53...just don't know how likely it is w/ our stupid draft situation.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[QUOTE=The Goat;544289]Word...I mean there's been some debate whether Rabach's size is a factor in his paltry performance. I tend to think it makes a difference. He's 6-4 and under 290 making him almost "lanky" for an interior lineman. If he was 6-1 and the same weight, w/ a lower center of gravity, he'd probably get pushed around far less than he currently does. I'm on board w/ the Mack movement 53..[B].just don't know how likely it is w/ our stupid draft situation.[/[/B]QUOTE]

How important is that 2nd rounder for JT now? :doh:

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544292]

How important is that 2nd rounder for JT now? :doh:[/quote]

No doubt...such a disappointing outcome. Lesson to be learned: don't f w/ the Tuna cuz he'll eat u for lunch :)

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544292][quote=The Goat;544289]Word...I mean there's been some debate whether Rabach's size is a factor in his paltry performance. I tend to think it makes a difference. He's 6-4 and under 290 making him almost "lanky" for an interior lineman. If he was 6-1 and the same weight, w/ a lower center of gravity, he'd probably get pushed around far less than he currently does. I'm on board w/ the Mack movement 53..[B].just don't know how likely it is w/ our stupid draft situation.[/[/B]QUOTE]

How important is that 2nd rounder for JT now? :doh:[/quote]
Solution: AQ Shipley with our 3rd rounder

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544249]As far as weight goes, I can defininitely see the argument for wanting bigger guys in the middle. There are a lot of 300lb. plus DT's in this league. A 288lb lineman taking on increasingly bigger DT's is not a pretty sight. Especially when trying to get a "PUSH" up the middle. Since DE's are not as "weighty" it might not be as important for an OT.[/quote]
Yeah, we got I think 2 of the 3 smallest guys out of starters AND backups in the division. Our guys start, theirs don't.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Anyone who says size doesn't matter must be listening to a consoling girlfriend.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=tryfuhl;544318]Yeah, we got I think 2 of the 3 smallest guys out of starters AND backups in the division. Our guys start, theirs don't.[/quote]

Well Doc certainly is a big upgrade on that regard...about 35 pounds worth. Rabach and Jansen, if he starts, are the only sub300 guys left; however I don't think weight is an issue w/ Jansen, he must be very strong/tough, it's just a matter of his age/movement. We'll see...

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=The Goat;544322]Well Doc certainly is a big upgrade on that regard...about 35 pounds worth. Rabach and Jansen, if he starts, are the only sub300 guys left; however I don't think weight is an issue w/ Jansen, he must be very strong/tough, it's just a matter of his age/movement. We'll see...[/quote]

I mostly hope that Dock can pick up where he left off here, more so than where he did in Buffalo. I've got a couple of Bills fan friends and they said he was nothing to talk about and that if they were Skins fans they'd say it would've been a "Snyder signing" (aka way overpaying).

Plus mark to him for WANTING to play for us, him and Samuels' friendship, etc.. I think that chemistry alone will help us, on top of the other things

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

It's not all about how big you are, even at center - New England's center is only 8 pounds heavier than Rabach.

There's an even article that was written by a former NFL offensive linemen (i forget his name right now) that played all 5 positions. He said playing center was the physically easiest position to play for him.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=warriorzpath;544413]It's not all about how big you are, even at center - New England's center is only 8 pounds heavier than Rabach.

There's an even article that was written by a former NFL offensive linemen (i forget his name right now) that played all 5 positions. He said playing center was the physically easiest position to play for him.[/quote]

It's a Ross Tucker article on SI.com. Thing is height/weight ratio comes into play. Sure there are centers about the same weight as Rabach but to a man they're shorter w/ a lower center of gravity and probably stronger. Rabach is almost lanky at his height and weight...just gets pushed over by larger, stronger DTs.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Rabach got pwned by Shaun Rogers once, and he isn't even the best NT in the league. Rabach alone vs. Ngata would spell death for ANY QB behind Rabach.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=The Goat;544414]It's a Ross Tucker article on SI.com. Thing is height/weight ratio comes into play. Sure there are centers about the same weight as Rabach but to a man they're shorter w/ a lower center of gravity and probably stronger. Rabach is almost lanky at his height and weight...just gets pushed over by larger, stronger DTs.[/quote]

I agree that it comes into play, but that's what I'm trying to say - is it is just one thing among others that affects the way a lineman plays or how they should play. But when it's all said and done - it's about how they play not how big they are.

You can't make a broad generalization that the bigger man will do better than a smaller man at the same position. This is most effective when you are playing the game on paper. On paper, the bigger you are the better you are.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Linemen in the nfl are kinda like the frontcourt of an nba team. You've GOT to have a certain level of size to start with, then other variables come into play. Sure, NBA teams have started 6'9 centers, but they had to be that much more athletic to make up for it, e.g. Alonzo Mouring. That's the exception, most teams have a 7 footer even if he's just there to alter shots.

If your O line is smaller they'd better be fundamentally sound & relatively athletic & very strong. I think OM makes a great point. The division is really tough in the trenches. Of course you want guys that can block, but other teams have guys that can block & are bigger. Leonard Davis, e.g., is quite athletic & he's 6'5, 350 or so.

Of course we all agree that the line is old & needs some new blood.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Of course it's not ALL about size. But all things being EQUAL, the big man wins every time IMO. If I have a choice between 2 guys with the same skill set at C, G or T but ones 288 lbs. and the other is 315 lbs., I'm taking the 315 lb. guy every time.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=freddyg12;544422]Linemen in the nfl are kinda like the frontcourt of an nba team. You've GOT to have a certain level of size to start with, then other variables come into play. Sure, NBA teams have started 6'9 centers, but they had to be that much more athletic to make up for it, e.g. Alonzo Mouring. That's the exception, most teams have a 7 footer even if he's just there to alter shots.

If your O line is smaller they'd better be fundamentally sound & relatively athletic & very strong. I think OM makes a great point. The division is really tough in the trenches. Of course you want guys that can block, but other teams have guys that can block & are bigger. Leonard Davis, e.g., is quite athletic & he's 6'5, 350 or so.

Of course we all agree that the line is old & needs some new blood.[/quote]

The redskins offensive line seemed to play well enough to win in the first half of the season, but were not as effective as in the second half. Part of it was the way they played, but most of it was do to injuries and wearing down as the season went along. I think this has more to do with their age than it has their size.

And I agree that the tradeoff with size is technique and athleticism and it all depends on what kind of identity (particularly offensive) you want with your team.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544424]Of course it's not ALL about size. But all things being EQUAL, the big man wins every time IMO. If I have a choice between 2 guys with the same skill set at C, G or T but ones 288 lbs. and the other is 315 lbs., I'm taking the 315 lb. guy every time.[/quote]

Tell that to New England with their center at 296. And that's the problem - you aren't really going to have that decision.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=warriorzpath;544426]Tell that to New England with their center at 296. [B]And that's the problem - you aren't really going to have that decision[/B].[/quote]

What???

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544430]What???[/quote]
Like I said, if you have a "problem", where deciding between one good lineman and another - then you don't choose, you play both.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=warriorzpath;544431]Like I said, if you have a "problem", where deciding between one good lineman and another - then you don't choose, [B]you play both[/B].[/quote]

So if you have to decide between 2 good centers with the same skill set but one is 27 lbs. bigger than the other, you play both? How do you do that? I think somehow you misread my post. I'm not going to play 2 RT's either just because they have the same skill set. Neither one is going to be as good as my LT.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544456]So if you have to decide between 2 good centers with the same skill set but one is 27 lbs. bigger than the other, you play both? How do you do that? I think somehow you misread my post. I'm not going to play 2 RT's either just because they have the same skill set. Neither one is going to be as good as my LT.[/quote]

This would be a rare situation, but I would rotate them. This would lend to the idea of them not wearing out at year's end. And like I said, this is the problem - you will not have this decision.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=warriorzpath;544458]This would be a rare situation, but[B] I would rotate them[/B]. This would lend to the idea of them not wearing out at year's end. And like I said, this is the problem - [B]you will not have this decision[/B].[/quote]

You will never have 2 guys similar in talent fighting for the same position? And you would rotate your Centers? Wow. It's pretty much a given that if you have 2 good LT's of a similar skill set you put one at RT. But for the purpose of this thread, if you have a surperior LG and a surperior Center, what becomes of the RG position if the 2 who are battling for that spot are much the same as far as talent but one is 30 lb's heavier? Are you saying to rotate them? Or switch one to Center even though you have a surperior center? To say you will not have this decision seems a little odd to me. I believe these kind of decisions are made all the time. Guys are fighting for starting positions all through Training camp and Preseason and it is not always a clear cut choice who should start.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=53Fan;544512]You will never have 2 guys similar in talent fighting for the same position? And you would rotate your Centers? Wow.[/quote]

No, if you had to decide between 2 good centers, it would be better off rotating them or playing one at guard. This isn't about just 2 similiar guys. You have 2 guys at center that's not worth playing - you go get another guy.

What is it that you don't understand with that logic? What has gotten you so baffled?

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=warriorzpath;544458]This would be a rare situation, but I would [B]rotate [/B]them. This would lend to the idea of them not wearing out at year's end. And like I said, this is the problem - you will not have this decision.[/quote]

Offensive Lineman are not familiar with this word.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

[quote=warriorzpath;544514]No, if you had to decide between 2 good centers, it would be better off rotating them or playing one at guard. This isn't about just 2 similiar guys. You have 2 guys at center that's not worth playing - you go get another guy.

What is it that you don't understand with that logic? What has gotten you so baffled?[/quote]

Oh, so you just go get a better one? Well heck let's go do that at all the positions. I kinda think you're a little baffled about what this thread is all about.

Re: OM FIELD: Redskins OL - Tale of the Tape
 

Look, if you have one center that is effective in playing well as another, then their weight and height don't really matter does it.

[U]It only matters if the bigger guy plays better.[/U]