Wanted: Playmakers
 

Moss? Check.
Cooley? Check.
Randle El (now known as Santonio Holmes)? Check.
Jason Campbell? Hmmm.

I too am warming up to the idea that if we want to get to the promise land it may take drafting Sanchez or probably giving Colt Brennan a shot. Why? It's no secret that Campbell has had a lot of instablility as far a OCs go but, look at his game. Even at Auburn his impressive W-L record and national championship title was helped much by a strong defense and running game (Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown). This reveals Campbell strengths. He does a great job making safe reads and takes very few chances with the football. The Skins have had a top 5 defense for most of the years he's started and a very effective running game so, we can afford to be more risky in that regard. Also, even though we have had great defenses, we are not one that have a lot of takeaways, or points off of, as the 2000 Ravens did. And before you say the WR corps was the culprit, Moss, Randle El, and Cooley are better than Cutler's Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, and Daniel Graham/Tony Sheffler. I believe Cutler's big numbers are a result of his ability to let it fly (watch what he does in CHI under [B]his new OC[/B] and former FA bust Brandon Lloyd and REL-like Devin Hester). Something Campbell doesn't risk doing often. That's why Jay Cutler or a Brett Farve will have a eye-popping number of INTs to go with thier impressive TD stats. Who's to argue that Farve isn't a winner? A franchise QB? A team can surely win with Jason Campbell or a Trent Dilfer but, you have to make sure other attributes of the team make up for the lack of risk taking.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

Another Campbell bashing thread? :doh:

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=53Fan;547200]Another Campbell bashing thread? :doh:[/quote]

No. Campbell just doesn't fit where we are right now as a defense. If we commit to him and re-sign him for another multi-year deal we're in for more mediocrity as we'll spend more money and draft picks on FAs trying to make his production go up or get more points off TOs. That's what we've done. He's a great guy and a better QB than more than half of the leagues' starers. My question is to you is: Do you want to get to the next level or continue to be one step away?

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

You have Randle El listed as a playmaker?

I agree that JC has to go down field more often and show off that cannon arm. Nonetheless, in a new system in 2008, and behind a creaky OL, JC's qb rating was better than Favre, Flacco, Kerry Collins, and Roethlisberger. His completion percentage was better than Romo, Eli Manning, and Matt Ryan. He also threw for more yards than Eli Manning. And he threw fewer interceptions than just about everyone who starts. JC actually makes more good plays than you give him credit for.

As for bad plays, I will argue against Favre. Except when Green Bay had a solid defense and a good running game in the late '90s, Green Bay was up-and-down with Favre. So were the Jets. Cutler has a sub-.500 record as a starter.

The fact is, Super Bowls are more often won with qb's who are careful with the ball than they are with wild gunslingers. During the course of a 3 or 4 game playoff run, a wild gunslinger is going to kill you, sooner or later, with picks. On this note the 2007 Giants still owe Favre a thank-you card.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

GTripp, go easy.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

I'm not even going to respond to this. You can't have a playmakers post and not mention Anthony Mix. That's just crazy.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;547207]GTripp, go easy.[/quote]

GTripp, don't bother. How much more breath must be wasted here?

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=Lotus;547206]You have Randle El listed as a playmaker?[/quote]

Yes. REL is a playmaker. He's proved that before signing with us. Would you say Santonio Holmes or Devin Hester are play makers? The answer is, with the right QB, (Cutler, Roethlisberger) definitely yes.

[quote=Lotus;547206]
I agree that JC has to go down field more often and show off that cannon arm. Nonetheless, in a new system in 2008, and behind a creaky OL, JC's qb rating was better than Favre, Flacco, Kerry Collins, and Roethlisberger. His completion percentage was better than Romo, Eli Manning, and Matt Ryan. He also threw for more yards than Eli Manning. And he threw fewer interceptions than just about everyone who starts. JC actually makes more good plays than you give him credit for.[/quote]

I'm not taking away Campbell's QB rating or his safe decision making. Just as your posts states, QB ratings obviously don't get you into the playoffs. I'd rather have a one of those QBs you mentioned and have a shot at postseason play than have a QB with a perfect QB rating and miss the playoffs.

[quote=Lotus;547206]
As for bad plays, I will argue against Favre. Except when Green Bay had a solid defense and a good running game in the late '90s, Green Bay was up-and-down with Favre. So were the Jets. Cutler has a sub-.500 record as a starter.[/quote]

GB had more winning seasons than losses with Farve and did they ever win the SB? You know the team that Farve is playing on always had a chance, even last years NYJ. As for DEN they were ranked near the bottom as far as defense goes.

[quote=Lotus;547206]
The fact is, Super Bowls are more often won with qb's who are careful with the ball than they are with wild gunslingers. During the course of a 3 or 4 game playoff run, a wild gunslinger is going to kill you, sooner or later, with picks. On this note the 2007 Giants still owe Favre a thank-you card. [/quote]

On the contrary. Defense wins championships. And we don't do a lot of scoring of turnovers (see James Harrison and his low rating QB Roethlsberger)

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=GTripp0012;547208]I'm not even going to respond to this. You can't have a playmakers post and not mention Anthony Mix. That's just crazy.[/quote]

:lol:

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=GTripp0012;547208]I'm not even going to respond to this. You can't have a playmakers post and not mention Anthony Mix. That's just crazy.[/quote]
What else is there to say. We'll all have to wait and see. Most of you aren't still crying over Patrick Ramsey although he wasn't given a fair chance. And Campbell was always a better prospect than Ramsey.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547198] A team can surely win with Jason Campbell or a Trent Dilfer but, you have to make sure other attributes of the team make up for the lack of risk taking.[/quote]

Hey bro, superbowls are one by a TEAM not a QB.
You can't rob Peter to pay Paul in the NFL and expect to win.
Going after a Cutler or Sanchez [I][B][U]might[/U][/B][/I] improve the QB.*
But giving up what it would take to get them would surely weaken other areas of the team.

I personally don't think Cutler would have been a sure-fire improvement over Campbell. If you project the trend of Campbell's play in his 1st year with Zorn to Cutler's 3rd year with Shanahan i think the numbers would be similiar [I]and[/I] you have to factor in the defenses in the NFC East and the AFC West.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547198]Moss? Check.
Cooley? Check.
Randle El (now known as Santonio Holmes)? Check.
Jason Campbell? Hmmm.

I too am warming up to the idea that if we want to get to the promise land it may take drafting Sanchez or probably giving Colt Brennan a shot. Why? It's no secret that Campbell has had a lot of instablility as far a OCs go but, look at his game. Even at Auburn his impressive W-L record and national championship title was helped much by a strong defense and running game (Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown). This reveals Campbell strengths. He does a great job making safe reads and takes very few chances with the football. The Skins have had a top 5 defense for most of the years he's started and a very effective running game so, we can afford to be more risky in that regard. Also, even though we have had great defenses, we are not one that have a lot of takeaways, or points off of, as the 2000 Ravens did. And before you say the WR corps was the culprit, [B]Moss, Randle El, and Cooley are better than Cutler's Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, and Daniel Graham/Tony Sheffler. [/B]I believe Cutler's big numbers are a result of his ability to let it fly (watch what he does in CHI under [B]his new OC[/B] and former FA bust Brandon Lloyd and REL-like Devin Hester). Something Campbell doesn't risk doing often. That's why Jay Cutler or a Brett Farve will have a eye-popping number of INTs to go with thier impressive TD stats. Who's to argue that Farve isn't a winner? A franchise QB? A team can surely win with Jason Campbell or a Trent Dilfer but, you have to make sure other attributes of the team make up for the lack of risk taking.[/quote]

I'd have to strongly disagree here. Marshall is better than Moss. Is there really even an argument over that? Royal is hands down already a better wr than ARE. He had some monster games as a rookie. I don't know his numbers but he was near 100 catches. ARE has never even caught 60. Cooley is better than Tony S. But TE's don't have the same impact as top flight wr's do.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=Lotus;547211]:lol:[/quote]Those three trophies as your avatar are starting to rust. I don't know about y'all but I'm tired of 'eating off' championships of yesteryear. I might as well root for DAL if I have to do that...

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547202]No. Campbell just doesn't fit where we are right now as a [B]defense[/B]. If we commit to him and re-sign him for another multi-year deal we're in for more mediocrity as we'll spend more money and draft picks on FAs trying to make his production go up or get more points off TOs. That's what we've done. He's a great guy and a better QB than more than half of the leagues' starers. My question is to you is: Do you want to get to the next level or continue to be one step away?[/quote]


I didnt know Campbell played defense

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547212]What else is there to say. We'll all have to wait and see. Most of you aren't still crying over Patrick Ramsey although he wasn't given a fair chance. And Campbell was always a better prospect than Ramsey.[/quote]

[quote=diehard]I too am warming up to the idea that if we want to get to the promise land it may take drafting Sanchez or probably giving Colt Brennan a shot.[/quote]
Wow. Give Colt a shot AND Ramsey wasn't given a fair chance all in one thread. It's like I died and went to Redskins fan QB fantasy hell.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=skinsfan69;547214]I'd have to strongly disagree here. Marshall is better than Moss. Is there really even an argument over that? Royal is hands down already a better wr than ARE. He had some monster games as a rookie. I don't know his numbers but he was near 100 catches. ARE has never even caught 60. Cooley is better than Tony S. But TE's don't have the same impact as top flight wr's do.[/quote]Compare Devin Thomas to Eddie Royal... both were rookie WRs last year.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547218]Compare Devin Thomas to Eddie Royal... both were rookies last year.[/quote]


exception that proves the rule, Compare Ryan Leaf to Peyton Manning both were rookies at the same time.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547210]Yes. [B]REL is a playmaker. He's proved that before signing with us.[/B] Would you say Santonio Holmes or Devin Hester are play makers? The answer is, with the right QB, (Cutler, Roethlisberger) definitely yes.

I'm not taking away Campbell's QB rating or his safe decision making. Just as your posts states, QB ratings obviously don't get you into the playoffs. [B]I'd rather have a one of those QBs you mentioned and have a shot at postseason play than have a QB with a perfect QB rating and miss the playoffs.[/B]

GB had more winning seasons than losses with Farve and did they ever win the SB? [B]You know the team that Farve is playing on always had a chance[/B], even last years NYJ. As for DEN they were ranked near the bottom as far as defense goes.

On the contrary. [B]Defense wins championships[/B]. And we don't do a lot of scoring of turnovers (see James Harrison and his low rating QB Roethlsberger)[/quote]

Randle El may have been a playmaker with Pittsburgh. He has not been one with us.

As to your next point, Cutler and Favre did not make the playoffs last year. Your argument that you would rather have Cutler or Favre and make the playoffs is fallacious.

Next point: No, the team with Favre did not always have a chance, not when he threw for multiple interceptions in a game, as he often did.

Of course defense wins championships, unless a wild gunslinger quarterback screws it up by throwing interceptions. A good defense WANTS a qb who is careful with the ball, not a qb who gives the opposition points. The only time a gunslinger might be desirable is if one has a bad defense. Even then the winning percentage is not great.

Back to the basic point - history has shown that Super Bowls are more often won with qb's who are careful with the ball than those who are irresponsible with it. And I'd like to see us win another Super Bowl, not just put on a good offensive show only to have our hearts broken by a stupid interception.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547215]Those three trophies as your avatar are starting to rust. I don't know about y'all but I'm tired of 'eating off' championships of yesteryear. I might as well root for DAL if I have to do that...[/quote]

You are right, they are starting to rust.

What was Gibbs' philosophy when we won them? AVOID TURNOVERS AT ALL COST. MAKE SURE YOU WIN THE TURNOVER BATTLE.

Because I want to win the Super Bowl, a wild gunslinger is the last person that I want to see under center.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547218]Compare Devin Thomas to Eddie Royal... both were rookie WRs last year.[/quote]

In 2008 Royal caught 91 balls for 980 yards and 5 scores.

In 7 seasons Randle El has never achieved that many catches, those yards, or that many scores in one season.

Rookie or not, Royal wins hands-down.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

I don't understand the purpose of this thread.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=Lotus;547220]Randle El may have been a playmaker with Pittsburgh. He has not been one with us.

As to your next point, Cutler and Favre did not make the playoffs last year. Your argument that you would rather have Cutler or Favre and make the playoffs is fallacious.

Next point: No, the team with Favre did not always have a chance, not when he threw for multiple interceptions in a game, as he often did.

Of course defense wins championships, unless a wild gunslinger quarterback screws it up by throwing interceptions. A good defense WANTS a qb who is careful with the ball, not a qb who gives the opposition points. The only time a gunslinger might be desirable is if one has a bad defense. Even then the winning percentage is not great.

Back to the basic point - history has shown that Super Bowls are more often won with qb's who are careful with the ball than those who are irresponsible with it. And I'd like to see us win another Super Bowl, not just put on a good offensive show only to have our hearts broken by a stupid interception.[/quote]
So you believe the only way to improve this team is to spend more money and draft picks on improving the fourth ranked defense? Many did not want to draft WRs last year either.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=Lotus;547223]In 2008 Royal caught 91 balls for 980 yards and 5 scores.

In 7 seasons Randle El has never achieved that many catches, those yards, or that many scores in one season.

Rookie or not, Royal wins hands-down.[/quote]Let's see Royal's production with Orton? No defending Marshall huh? He'll have his fair share of balls behind bars sooner or later.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547225][B]So you believe the only way to improve this team is to spend more money and draft picks on improving the fourth ranked defense?[/B] Many did not want to draft WRs last year either.[/quote]

No. You are not paying attention. What I believe is that you are mistaken in the points which you have made. That is all.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=GMScud;547224]I don't understand the purpose of this thread.[/quote]

Um, hello, clearly we needed another thread about this topic because it has not been adequately covered on this site. If you were some guy who just joined the board you would understand that.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547227]Let's see Royal's production with Orton? No defending Marshall huh? He'll have his fair share of balls behind bars sooner or later.[/quote]

You argued that Randle El was more of a playmaker than Royal. You were wrong in this argument. That is all. No reason for me to mention Marshall.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=Lotus;547231]You argued that Randle El was more of a playmaker than Royal. You were wrong in this argument. That is all. No reason for me to mention Marshall.[/quote]My point was (not mentioning Royal) was that Campbell is hindering Moss, Cooley, and REls (and Devin Thomas') productivity. No?

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

diehard, a person who admits that they are wrong is worthy of respect.

Someone who cannot admit that they are wrong is neither correct nor worthy of respect.

Your choice.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;547230]Um, hello, clearly we needed another thread about this topic because it has not been adequately covered on this site. If you were some guy who just joined the board you would understand that.[/quote]
You could say the same for 9/10 of the threads on the board...

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

Here's what you said:
Moss, Randle El, and Cooley are better than Cutler's Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, and Daniel Graham/Tony Sheffler

You have been demonstrated mistaken in this statement, in which you in fact did mention Royal.

I'm not going to argue with you again until you argue with integrity.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=Lotus;547229]No. You are not paying attention. What I believe is that you are mistaken in the points which you have made. That is all.[/quote]

I don't mind taking shots for having an opinion. I was hoping someone had a clue what was needed to get this team over the hump. Jeez, what a way to treat newcomers...

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=GMScud;547224]I don't understand the purpose of this thread.[/quote]


to piss you off

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547236]I don't mind taking shots for having an opinion. I was hoping someone had a clue what was needed to get this team over the hump. Jeez, what a way to treat newcomers...[/quote]


maybe if you didnt create a thread that had been dicuseed 75 times in the last 9 days then fill it with mindless garbage then people wouldn't bee so angry. (Havent seen schneed today so I thought I would the the site asshole)

P.S. Welcome to the board

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547234]You could say the same for 9/10 of the threads on the board...[/quote]

If everybody jumped off a bridge ...

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;547239]If everybody jumped off a bridge ...[/quote]


The world would have less serial killers

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=Lotus;547233]diehard, a person who admits that they are wrong is worthy of respect.

Someone who cannot admit that they are wrong is neither correct nor worthy of respect.

Your choice.[/quote]
I'm wrong for doing a lot of things and thinking this site is free of snipers was one of them. My opinion that Moss is a better WR than Marshall, Cooley is a better TE than Sheffler, or that there is a reason REL played a integral part in PIT winning SB XL is can be debated. A WR is only good as his QB. But maybe I'm way off base about that. Hats off to you and your mods. :benched:

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=diehard;547242]I'm wrong for doing a lot of things and thinking this site is free of snipers was one of them. My opinion that Moss is a better WR than Marshall, Cooley is a better TE than Sheffler, or that there is a reason REL played a integral part in PIT winning SB XL is can be debated. A WR is only good as his QB. But maybe I'm way off base about that. Hats off to you and your mods. :benched:[/quote]

Diehard - obviously the issue of Jason Campbell is a polarizing one, especially on this website. I think the point the other posters are making is this topic is being discussed ad nausem in numerous other threads.

Sometimes people like to play thread police. Hell I'm guilty of it on occasion. Ultimately the mods are the only people who matter as far as thread-worthiness, and so far none of them have weighed in. So don't sweat it. Yet. ;)

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

On this board you're pretty much treated by the way you present yourself. New or old. If you're opinion is unpopular and the subject has been beaten to death, what kind of response would you expect? It's nothing personal, welcome to the board. From what I've seen, the merits of JC being our QB have been intelligently discussed numerous times. The problem is, one side decides to ignore facts instead of incorperating them into their argument to futher their opinion. Apparently the facts restrict the validity of their argument. I'll let you decide for yourself which side that is. Hopefully you're someone who is more interested in learning, than proving you're right, and is openminded enough to do so. Once again, welcome to the board and to answer your question, there are many things needed to get us over the hump but I don't believe changing QB's is one of them. One of these things would be to have enough patience for this offense which was just installed last year, to jell before making changes. Especially at a position as important as the QB.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

[quote=Lotus;547220]Randle El may have been a playmaker with Pittsburgh. He has not been one with us.

As to your next point, Cutler and Favre did not make the playoffs last year. Your argument that you would rather have Cutler or Favre and make the playoffs is fallacious.

Next point: No, the team with Favre did not always have a chance, not when he threw for multiple interceptions in a game, as he often did.

Of course defense wins championships, unless a wild gunslinger quarterback screws it up by throwing interceptions. A good defense WANTS a qb who is careful with the ball, not a qb who gives the opposition points. The only time a gunslinger might be desirable is if one has a bad defense. Even then the winning percentage is not great.

[b]Back to the basic point - history has shown that Super Bowls are more often won with qb's who are careful with the ball than those who are irresponsible with it. And I'd like to see us win another Super Bowl, not just put on a good offensive show only to have our hearts broken by a stupid interception.[/b][/quote]
You're right. Even great QB like Manning didn't find success in the post season until they stopped turning the ball over as much. There's a reason Favre hadn't gone back to a Super Bowl in his last 10 years, he believed too many of his own press clippings about being a 'gunslinger' and lived down to his reputation.
Someone smarter than me can probably find this on the interweb, but I don't think a QB who led the league in TD passes has ever won the Super Bowl.

Re: Wanted: Playmakers
 

Hmm i have yet to make a thread, but don't worry it will somehow involve Sanchez, Booing Campbell, Calling ARE a playmaker. Gimme a sec still laughing bout calling ARE a playmaker. Will be a poll too, with vague answers, still working on it.