All NOT in favor of Portis deal!
 

OK, seriously, let's break this down... because once you do, you realize how dumb this move is.

First, let me say Clinton Portis is young, and a great back... he'd be a great RB for us... BUT

Let's look at it from these 2 angles...

Situation A---> We get Portis at RB, get rid of posssibly the best CB in the game AND a 2nd rounder.

Problems with this are:

1) OK, this leaves us with just a 1st and 5th round pick and thats IT.
2) Portis won't come THAT much cheaper than Champ (He has been quoted as saying "I'm one of the top 5 RB's in the game and I deserved to be paid like one."
3) We have a gaping hole at CB.
4) We STILL have gaping holes on D-Line.
5) 3 & 4 combined = Our defense is actually getting WORSE!
6) Money to sign S. Springs (who were are close to signing), J. Kearse, and T. Washington? MAYBE those 3, but nothing more than that! (see #2)
6) Gibbs/Bugel O-Lines have never needed a superstar RB.

Situation B ---> We trade Champ to DET for a 1st (6th overall) and 3rd (or 4th) Rd Pick... then trade down a couple slots from #6 and take Kevin Jones.

1) Can anyone here argue that K. Jones skills do not look an awful lot like C. Portis' coming out of college? (Portis ran for 1,500 rookie yr) if not better?? (Kevin Jones runs a 4.3 - 40) ... i think they do.
2) At #5 we can take S. Taylor or trade one down, get D-Line guy, get a TE or young CB in the second (the one we AREN'T trading to DEN), and someone else in the 3rd, meaning ... lots of young affordable talent coming in.
3) We'd have PLENTY of cap space to get a S. Springs (or better), J. Kearse, T.Washington, J. Kleinsasser, and more.

My point is ... is Kevin Jones THAT much worse than Portis?

In one scenario, we'd have Portis at RB, a nice sized cap hit, limited ability to be active in free agency, and only 1st and 5th round picks to help the defense...

In the other, we'd have K. Jones at RB, a MUCH lower cap hit (rookie contract), ability to be more active in free agency, and 1st, 2nd, 3rd (or 4th), and 5th round picks to fill the hole Champ leaves and the one on the D-Line.

I mean... to me, it just makes sense... don't be wowed by a name guys... running backs are found and made EVERY year.

Is this you bowels? The fact is , I do not like parting with our second rounder, and I dont see how that wasent better negoiated, but Portis vs Jones, Portis in a heartbeat. There are lots of back that look amazing coming outta college that stink, Portis has proven what he can do on a professional level.

I agree with httr, I am also afraid SS's shadow is still empailing our team, he made player's look so useless that nobody believes any of these guy's are capable of finding the field, let alone play. to bad we will lose champ for a back we don't need, and have holes in area's that we do need, I guess we just send the rest of our back's packing at this point, if we go this route bett's was another obvious waste of a pick for us, but not for the team that will give him a chance.

I don't think the question is Portis vs Jones.....it's a matter of $$$. For what Portis will want, we could sign Jones and probably 2 or 3 more guys to help fill some needs.

Yep, it's me ... figured I needed a REAL 'skinsfans screen name ;)

I am not saying Kevin Jones is better than Portis right now... but considering all those other factors?? Cap space to signs defensive help and the 3 extra picks we'd get instead on TOP of having Jones??

I just don't think he is, or COULD be, THAT much worse.. and I am not that big a Kevin Jones fan!! hahaha

I just think this deal is stupid... just like the Brunell deal... we are spending our money at QB and RB... I know they may be the 2 most important positions... but damn, Patrick Ramsey isn't as talented as Jake Delhomme??????? I mean, we'll be running a system VERY symiliar to dan Hennings (Gibbs' old OC) offense in Carolina. And all these people think Ramsey "isn't ready" to lead a team throguh the playoffs? Delhomme was???

The idea of "Super Bowl QB's" are blown WAY out of proportion. So is the idea of bringing in Brunell with a SIGNING BONUS worth more than million dollars richer than Ramsey's whole 5 year deal!

Also... Running Backs are made every year... look at Ahman Grren leaving Seattle, Priest Holmes leaving Baltimore, and Quinton Griffin filling in for CLINTON PORTIS!!! With a good offensive line... which we WILL have this year, you can MAKE a good back out of Betts, McCullough OR Greg Jones (2nd round pick) and leave those 2 first round picks for defense...

I dunno... it's just my opinion, I could be wrong ... but I think the move hurts the overall TEAM. We DO need a defense too.

Same here, I'm not the king or anything lol. I just think that Portis can give us exactly what we need for our offense, I want to agree and say we are avoiding the defnese, but really the offseason hasent even started yet. I just think its good to go with a sure thing at this point than another maybe, cause we already have ton of those on our roster. Who knows, I'm in favor, I get where eveyone is coming from though, whos not.

If we do get Portis, there is no doubt we will be a deadly offensive team. Coles, Gardner, OL, Portis, Ramsey or Brunell. It will be almost unstoppable offense. On D we will be crushed by ur div opponents in the passing game. Rumor around the league of Keshawn going to Dallas and TO going to Philly will hurt us a lot. Who will cover these guyz? I think we need champ for that reason, but I also understand that it is impossible to meet champ demands considering other wholes we have. I would say we should deal with Detroit instead of Denver and built ur team with the picks acquired from them.

I think Champ for Portis straight up is a good deal. Both want out, Both are all-pro players, both are great people.

Each team wins.

Hail to the redskins is exactly right. We would have a good offense, but defense wins championships. If you don't believe that just look at what happened to KC, Min. Both teams with great offenses, but no defense and they ended up no doing anything. I say trade bailey to Detroit.

[QUOTE=skinsfan26]If we do get Portis, there is no doubt we will be a deadly offensive team. Coles, Gardner, OL, Portis, Ramsey or Brunell. It will be almost unstoppable offense. On D we will be crushed by ur div opponents in the passing game. Rumor around the league of Keshawn going to Dallas and TO going to Philly will hurt us a lot. Who will cover these guyz? I think we need champ for that reason, but I also understand that it is impossible to meet champ demands considering other wholes we have. I would say we should deal with Detroit instead of Denver and built ur team with the picks acquired from them.[/QUOTE]

I need Sean Taylor in my life. Can he play any corner? Everyone says he cover's like a corner and hits like a LB, I mean our safteys arent terrible or anything, could we draft Taylor and make him a cornerback?

I could swallow that ... one-for-one ... but losing that 2nd round pick?? OUCH..

THAT, I couldn't take...
that's basically a 1st round talent guy there at #41 (9th pick in 2nd round) who slipped for some stupid reason (example Portis, Smoot, and Taylor Jacobs)... a possible defensive line starter!

If we pass on taylor and trade down, are there any teams in like the 7-9 range that REALLY wanna swap first round picks for their first and second. That way we really get the best of both worlds. I dont thnk any team would wanna trade down and give up a second round pick for two slots, but if the right player is there, who knows

Where did you hear that we were close to signing Shawn Springs?

I'm still in favor of the signing.

1. We're gonna pay top dollar to keep Bailey (if we don't trade him)
2. We need to consummate a deal soon to stay well beneath the cap for FA
3. I'm not so sure the Lions would give their 1st pick + another pick
4. Portis will demand a LOT less than Bailey (probably 5 million/yr. not 9 mill)
5. The 6th overall pick is going to cost a boatload to sign
6. If you trade down from #6, you're going to pay a boatload for 2 high picks
7. The draft can be risky (see Desmond Howard et al)
8. Gibbs' system requires a top notch, proven back
9. Top notch proven backs don't come cheap (unless they're old)
10. Portis is, IMHO, the best back in the league and is one of the youngest
11. Signing Kearse, Springs, & Gardener/Washington will offset Champ's loss

I would want skins to draft sean taylor as well, but I am not sure if he will be available for us. I think detroit have their eyes on him n they will trade will giant for the 4th overall. Giants will trade bc they know we won't pick OT gallery at 5th and they can get another pick by trading down 2 spots. If this happens I would trade down and get Defensive lineman.

I think trade with Denver will make more sense to me if Portis and DT Gardner are traded for Bailey and 2rd pick.

Yeah, Denver is probobly going to cut him anyways

Portis
 

We are giving up too many draft picks and too much$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ We are win now--shaft later. :mad:

I wouldn't want Gardener traded to us--we'd take a giant cap hit for it (I'd prefer to sign him after he's been cut).

A question ... why does anyone think a trade with Detroit is still a possibility? Am I missing something? Last I heard there was NO WAY the Lions were trading their #6. Portis is the best we're going to get, folks. At this point, it's either that or the Jets' deal of Shaun Ellis, Lamont Jordan, and Anthony Becht. I'll take Portis and give up the second rounder, thanks. He will be the focal point of a rejuvenated offense. That's worth more than a second rounder, and it's worth more than Champ Bailey by himself. Losing him won't kill us.

Historically, it appears that a Gregg Williams defense in all likelihood will not suck. He and Marvin Lewis and Ray Rhodes have that in common. Even with average players, they'll build a good system around the guys they have and get the job done. The Redskins will get the FAs they need and the D will be fine minus Champ, average at worst. Priority #1 for Gibbs is running the ball on offense ... with Portis problem solved.

If Taylor's gone at #5, we'll take the DE from USC and be happy. No franchise tag for Kearse, so he could be coming our way. The D will be fine.

where I saw us close to signing Springs....

[URL]http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20040224-120527-2442r.htm[/URL]

What it says ...

"The Redskins appear to be so confident they will deal Bailey in the coming week that they already are searching for his replacement. NFL sources said Washington is seriously interested in acquiring Seattle veteran Shawn Springs as an unrestricted free agent. Springs, a seven-year veteran who went to Springbrook High School in Silver Spring, would team with Fred Smoot as the Redskins' starting cornerback tandem."

I'll take Shawn Springs, any idea on his $$ amount though, or if Winfeild ( who I think is the best fit if cheapest ) is cheaper? Defintley makes me happy that we could have a good replacement, I just hope its not too much dough.

You know... I dunno how the money will break down... I'm just more suprised that he has been in the league only 7 years... it seems he's been around longer.

Maybe because it seems like he has lost a step the past couple of years. That's OK, he'd be a relaible stop-gap until we draft a REAL Champ replacement.

But see... my whole point to NOT trading Champ to DEN, but to DET... we could have Springs, but trade the Lions pick down and grab Deangelo Hall (Champ Bailey athleticism and potential game breaker like Deion) who could learn from Springs and Smoot, be a nickel back and take over in 2 years for Shawn.

And by the way ... the Lions backed out when we wouldn't back down from wanting a 1st AND 2nd rounder.

If we came back and said we'd accept a 3rd or 4th, Champ might even help us by begging the Lions (perhaps giving them a better deal on his contract??) to take the deal so he could play with his brother (whish he wants VERY badly). So yes, I think Detroit LOVES Bailey, covets him... and Champ covets them... so never say never with the trade to Detroit.

I had originally heard of a straight-up trade with Seattle, Champ Bailey for Shaun Alexander and I was really excited. I had then heard about the Clinton Portis deal and I was estatic, though after thinking about it, I really wish we would have taken the Shaun Alexander deal, since I think he is about as good as Portis, but the fact we wouldn't be losing our Round 2 Draft Pick!

With the number of holes there is, and the big names that Snyder is going to be targeting (Kearse and Springs), is there going to be enough to strengthen our defense? Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Kearse and Springs (Especially now with Bailey leaving) in a Redskins uniform, but the Redskins had the 25th overall Defense last year, so they need to look at the entire Defense not just two spots. Oh, this might sound ignorant, but couldn't the Redskins trade Trung Candidate for a Pick or a Defensive player, since it looks like our Fullback (Rock Cartwright) could run better than him?

Thanks!

Were gonna have about 17 million dollars to work with, I think once Bailey is traded (obviously not counting Portis's contract).

someone who backs my thinking...

[URL]http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/7115889[/URL]

[B]Part that I like...[/B]

"As for which team wins, it's debatable. But here are factors to consider:

Shutdown corners are far more valuable than a good running back. In a league moving toward more wide-open football, a good corner is nearly as valuable as a good pass-rushing end. Backs can be found. Heck, Portis is a second-round pick, Terrell Davis came in the sixth round, Priest Holmes came in as an undrafted free agent. Edge: [B]Broncos[/B].

Portis is younger by two years, but the life expectancy of a running back is significantly shorter than a cover corner. Hits begin to take their toll on backs, which is why they usually fall off as they get close to 30. Good corners, see Troy Vincent, can play into their mid-30s. Edge: [B]Broncos[/B].

The Broncos will get an additional second-round pick, which could be used on a back such as Greg Jones of Florida State or Julius Jones of Notre Dame. If anybody can run it in their system -- their thinking remember, not mine -- maybe that player can get time as a rookie and have success. After giving up a third to get Brunell, Washington will be left with just three (actually two) draft picks in the April draft. That's future franchise suicide. Edge: [B]Broncos[/B].

Add it all up, and Denver seemingly gets the best of this deal."

All I can say is.... "Ditto. I completely agree"

Well, it's not as if we'll have many rookies to sign, so 17 mil for our 1st round pick, and a few good Free Agents may not be out of the question. Should our 5th rounder make the team, he'd definitely come at a cheap price. If you're right about that 17 mil, we're in better shape than I thought (even with big $$$ going to Portis).

He's saying we'd have 17 MIL if we gave up Champ,WITHOUT getting Portis, a la getting all draft picks for him. Portis has said... and this is a direct quote from a reporter who has spoken with him...

"Portis believes he is the is the best running back in football and wants to be paid as such."

Yeah... sounds an awful lot like Champ to me... meaning... he is a contract issue waiting to happen... and a HUGE cap hit coming SOMETIME soon...

again, "Franchise Suicide."

Still , even after we sign Portis, were gonna have alot more $$ to work with than I was ever expecting. Oh well, people disagree, I think overall, were gonna be fine, If Detroit just wants to offer us a first and that Jets deal is the only ohter offer, Denver is our best option by leaps and bounds.

[QUOTE=Hail to the Redskins]where I saw us close to signing Springs....

[URL]http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20040224-120527-2442r.htm[/URL]

What it says ...

"The Redskins appear to be so confident they will deal Bailey in the coming week that they already are searching for his replacement. NFL sources said Washington is seriously interested in acquiring Seattle veteran Shawn Springs as an unrestricted free agent. Springs, a seven-year veteran who went to Springbrook High School in Silver Spring, would team with Fred Smoot as the Redskins' starting cornerback tandem."[/QUOTE]

Springs would be cool with me.
The best news about this news is that the staff realizes that they've got to move quickly on those good FA CB's once the Bailey deal is done.
Signing a good CB immediately should quiet some critics about the Portis trade too.

If this works out, and the skins can add a Springs (or similar/better CB) then use the 5 pick on STaylor- in my opinion the secondary would be upgraded from last year on top of the obvious RB upgrade Portis gives us. I'm enjoying this radical rebuilding. I think, ultimately the staff is going to praised for the bold moves they've made. It looks like the player cuts and Bailey's exit will leave us room to grab some talented Dlinemen in FA too (in a perfect world: Wistrom D.Howard and C.Griffin but i'm dreamin).

I just want to see what they pull off next. Couple RB's, and Gardner could get us picks.
Tune in tomorrow

We were going to lose Champ, no two ways about it. Other teams knew it and weren't going to bend over backward to help us. Portis was going to hold out, so it was a mutual thing.

If Portis has a thousand yard season and catches and blocks well, he's worth it. He's 23.

THe second rounder only hurts if we don't get decent cap relief in the deal. BUt we should, given what we would have had to pay Champ. So the main question is how Portis's contract is structured. Good contract=good deal. If we free up money, we can free agent our way to defense. Champ's contract was blocking that.

Trade down for an extra pick, work the FA's on defense, and we'll have it.

But the long-term may be trouble! (Still, rookies need to get paid when their first contracts end, so that's not fool proof for building longterm either!)

I know the Spurrier era is over and not to bring him up again but I wonder what the feeling would be if he were still head coach and the first moves of the season were to add two offensive players (granted one is PORTIS!!!!), including adding another quarterback and we were going to give up Champ, Armstead and two draft picks

All that being said, like others have mentioned Champ didn't seem to want to be here. At the very least he was going to lead the Skins through a protracted holdout. Plus, it's early. We can still add draft picks plus there's free agency. Let's see what the Skins do over the next couple of months

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]I'm still in favor of the signing.

1. We're gonna pay top dollar to keep Bailey (if we don't trade him)
2. We need to consummate a deal soon to stay well beneath the cap for FA
3. I'm not so sure the Lions would give their 1st pick + another pick
4. Portis will demand a LOT less than Bailey (probably 5 million/yr. not 9 mill)
5. The 6th overall pick is going to cost a boatload to sign
6. If you trade down from #6, you're going to pay a boatload for 2 high picks
7. The draft can be risky (see Desmond Howard et al)
8. Gibbs' system requires a top notch, proven back
9. Top notch proven backs don't come cheap (unless they're old)
10. Portis is, IMHO, the best back in the league and is one of the youngest
11. Signing Kearse, Springs, & Gardener/Washington will offset Champ's loss[/QUOTE]


as much as I hate to disagree with a fellow skins fan, How could anyone not think the best complete back in the NFL right now is LaDainian Tomlinson of the SD Chargers? Granted Portis is up there but atleast a big portion of his yardage comes from his o-line while LT got all of his #'s with a terrible line of young players and a pathetic passing game(other than the 100 catches he pulled in.)

now what the skins should do is forget the Portis deal as much as I would love to have a young RB on the possible cusp of being in the upper ranks of the all time RBs, the deal is too costly to us. We don't know for sure if we can give him the contract he's gonna be looking for and not only are we giving up one of possibly the top 15 players in the league, we have to give up a very high 2nd round pick?!?! so here we go and this is gonna involve quite a few trades so it probably isn't all that feasible but it would work(but thats the fun part before the draft isn't it?):
1.)trade champ to Atlanta for their 1st(#8) and 2nd round picks which they seem ready to give up
2.)draft taylor with the #5 if he's still there but if not there isn't anyone who fills a need that is worth that high of a pick and huge signing bonus so trade that pick down in the 10-15 range for a team's 1st, possible 2nd or atleast 3rd, and a 5th or 6th rounder if possible
3.)with the 8th pick trade down to a team in the 20-25 range and their 2nd round pick
4.) with the 10-15 pick we take stephen jackson or Kevin Jones and we have ourselves a stud running at atleast a 1/3 or 1/4 the price Portis is going to want
5.)with the 20-25 pick take the de from USC or chris gamble if he's somehow available
6.) use the 2nd round picks to get a cb like D. Hall if gamble wasn't available earlier, an offensive linemen you can groom if samuels has to go this year or next, a wide reciever which there are a vast amount to choose from cuz I don't know about u but I'm tired of Gardner having the dropsies, and a yound d-linemen to be a back up atleast in his first year or a olb like boulware to replace armstead
7.)the rest of the picks should be used for solid back ups and a late round pick for a new punter
8.) use free agency to get someone at CB like Troy Vincent best case scenario or someone like b.taylor, a. plummer, or winfield who did pretty well under Greg williams(spring's has been hurt a lot with lingering injuries)/ DT: R. Coleman or R. Smith/DE: Kearse who is free of a franch. tag or grant winstrom

The contracts shouldn't be all that high for the first rounders, the really bad contracts are usually the top 5 or so. the draft I propose would provide a vast group of young players w/o very costly contracts which would all be about 4-5 years in length. The free agents listed might be a bit pricey but nothing snyder and cerrato can't work with.

plus is anyone else as scared about what might come out from this problem w/arrington's contract? this doesn't sound good but it also sounds a bit fishy from the agents side too since he first reported the contract being around 80 million even though it was 74.5 and now he's saying the contract turned in was for 6.5 million less than what was signed and agreed too. This would be the third suspicious business transaction being investigated invovling the skins in less than a year(tampering with Milloy and recently sam adams.) I hope this is all just some big mistake but it feels like something bads about to happen.

First of all, keeping Bailey is not a serious option. He has to go. To have kept him would mean a miserable disruption and holdout.

Portis is not merely a good running back - he is a great running back who could realistically gain 2,000 yards in a season. Bailey is possibly the best cornerback - but again, he cannot play for us this year without creating a huge problem. Are we a stronger team with Portis being a dominant game breaker that teams have to account for on every play, or are we stronger say taking the Lions deal and their first round draft pick in exchange for Bailey? Or picking up Greg Ellis from the Jets? Portis is a known quantity, and a draft pick is always a gamble. Portis looks very much like a player that could be beginning a hall of fame career.

Good Deal!
 

Undoubtedly a great deal! Value for Value! High $$$ for fewer $$$, and a top tier RB! Doesn't everyone realize that only E. Dickerson, Edgerin, and Portis are the only three guys to pick up over 1500 yards in each of their first two years? And he has a higher YPC(yards per carry) than the Legendary Jim Brown! That is some pretty good company! No, great company! Discount the 2nd rounder for one moment please! Drumroll here........ LDS and cousinvinnie are already salivating over the FA market! We did quite well with our FAs last year, and this is the time of year for LDS and his fantasy wishes to come true! He passes out $$$ like it's paper! On the other hand, all any of us can do here is work for a living, and only a very few of us (less than 1%) can actually afford to play his game! The other side of this great deal is of course, HOF Coach Gibbs and his ability to bring an O line together in order to run that ball! Leave the D to Coach Williams and Coach Blache, please! Once LDS gets "his guys", the D will come together as well. I suspicion that "his guys" this year will be on the D side!!! FA is only a few days away! Look up! Isn't that LDS's private plane??? Maybe this year LDS has a secret weapon like maybe a couple of personal private planes!

I like this deal because we already have a good secondary, just need another good/average CB role player to compliment that unit.

Portis is probably the best RB in football today..!

How can the Skins pass on a talent that Portis...? I think now!

If it was just a straight swap, I agree go for it. But giving up a 2nd orunder too? Expensive no matter which way you cut it.

People say that while good RB's can be found all over, a shut-down corner is very rare. Okay, I understand that....BUT...which position wins games??? Yep...RUNNING BACK!!! We have the opportunity to get one of the best young RB's in the league, so I say do it. A top RB will get you at least a couple more wins than an average one. [I]We have been 8-8 or worse with the best corner in the league!!! [/I]

I'm still not thrilled with the 2nd rounder, but this is a deal that has to be done. I'm still hoping that Denver throws in a pick as well, even if it is a lower 3rd or 4th rounder, so we at least still have 3 draft picks to work with (for now).

Is he a product of their system? Maybe to an extent, but look at our system now. Our linemen LOVE to run block, and with Gibbs & Bugel in charge, they will be the line they should be...or better. No worries there.

As for the Defense, we have Williams running it now, so that will make it better anyway. Plus, we WILL improve the D-line, and word is that we will go after Springs or Winfield to replace Champ, so we will be fine.

Get this done!!!

Great point Skins Rock. Running back is a very important position in the NFL today. If you don't believe me, look at the Green Bay Packers. Look at the Carolina Panthers. They have no great corners to speak of, but they have great runners. Granted, Green Bay has Favre, but he's not the same guy he was so many years ago. It's Ahman Green now. For the Panthers it was all about Stephen Davis. I don't wanna hear Ricky Manning, he was no one when the season started and they were fine.

Running back is much more important than Corner. As much as I would love to see Champ stay, this was the best thing that could have happened. Shaun Alexander is nowhere near the back Portis is, Alexander will rush for 80, 75, 62 then one game have 212 and four TD's, I'd rather have Portis. Portis is much more consistent and he's just all around better than Shaun Alexander.

With the cap space they have the Skins are going to be fine this year. They'll add another corner and improve the D-Line. 2 draft picks or not, they're going to win.

Yeah. I thought I was the only one who considered changing screen names... Welcome back!?