The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

Are chronicled here:

[url=http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/09/jim-zorn-on-4th-down.html]Advanced NFL Stats: Jim Zorn on 4th Down[/url]

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

Putting this analysis in layman's terms: if Zorn went to an extreme and took a knee on 4th down, giving the Rams the ball at the 3 yard line and saying, "betcha can't get a FG against our defense", he's actually got a better chance to win that way than to kick the FG (80% vs. 78%). Many coaches would have kicked in that situation, but you can do the math on it ... [U]it's basically a free offensive play, and if you get a yard, the game is over[/U].

If you run a questionable play like Zorn did, you aren't any worse off with them on the 4 yard line needing a FG, then with them on the 30 yard line following a kickoff, needing a TD. And that's not even considering that they could return the kickoff for a TD, and jump ahead right there.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

Crystalized my thoughts eloquently (and backed them up statistically)

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/32029-rams-vs-redskins-gameday-thread-16.html#post592041[/URL]

Although I disagree with the thread title :)

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

Unlike some other folks, I immediately thought that going for it the second time was an excellent idea. I still think it was the right call, even though we failed to convert. Thank you for giving my thinking mathematical support.

Now, the play call itself was terrible. Everyone knew we were going to run Portis left and, even if we had run left, a power play would have been better than a stretch. We also could have thrown a fade, called a bootleg, dragged Cooley over the middle, etc. Anything but the stretch play left.

But, back to the issue at hand: despite being lambasted by many folks for not kicking a field goal, Zorn was correct in going for it the second time.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

I am really tired, but of course I still have my twocents:

I absolutely liked going for it.

How many times have people said about the hogs "they knew we were going to run, and we ran". If CP had made that yard, it would have established a presence. and I would have cheered. he didn't so it was another nerve wracking ending (at least for about 40 game seconds).

I hope Zorn looks at the redzone tape a thousand times this week, and sees how a defensive guru in Spags shuts down the run. Zorn must learn, there is no preseason, or training camp equivalent to the red zone defense of the Giants, or of Spagnoulo. It is not something book learning only can teach. He has to see the effects from a coach's viewpoint. Is he learning, let's hope we get 5+ redzone attempts next week against Jim Schwartz.

GO SKINS

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

I like the idea to go for it on 4th and 1. If we make it game over and we build confidence in the run game. If we dont make it they have no time outs and have to go the lenth of the field to get in FG range. If we kick the FG i also thought about if they get a decent return then we are screwed. I liked the chances that our defense would stop them if we don't score they are backed up. Zorn showed guts and he showed faith in our O-line. Well our O-line could not control the Rams D-line at the LOS and Portis get strung out for no gain. Our O-line has to do better than that against a suspect Rams D-line. Where is Big Mike Williams, how about putting Lorenzo Alexander in the back field or something.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

at the time I thought it was a horrible call and Zorn should be fired after the game,and i still would have thought that until reading this.So I was wrong and Zorn made the right call to go for it.I am still not happy with corny zorny,he needs to get his shit together quick

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=htownskinfan;593379]at the time I thought it was a horrible call and Zorn should be fired after the game,and i still would have thought that until reading this.So I was wrong and Zorn made the right call to go for it.I am still not happy with corny zorny,he needs to get his shit together quick[/quote]

Getting only 9 points vs a horrible Rams team is evident that he does need to get it together quick. Both Zorn and Campbell's seat are getting awfully hot!

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=GTripp0012;593230]Are chronicled here:

[url=http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/09/jim-zorn-on-4th-down.html]Advanced NFL Stats: Jim Zorn on 4th Down[/url][/quote]

I'm not sure how that author gets the numbers for his 'model' so its hard for me to put much faith in his 'model' but using his own metrics:

[quote]Short yardage conversion attempts near the goal line are less successful than elsewhere on the field.
One-yard conversions are successful [B][COLOR="Red"]68%[/COLOR][/B] of the time

Where a FG:

A FG attempt from that distance is virtually automatic—[B][COLOR="Red"]99%[/COLOR][/B].[/quote]

All that matters imo are the odds for success of the play at hand and we went with the lesser option.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=GTripp0012;593232]Putting this analysis in layman's terms: if Zorn went to an extreme and took a knee on 4th down, giving the Rams the ball at the 3 yard line and saying, "betcha can't get a FG against our defense", he's actually got a better chance to win that way than to kick the FG (80% vs. 78%). Many coaches would have kicked in that situation, but you can do the math on it ... [U]it's basically a free offensive play, and if you get a yard, the game is over[/U].

If you run a questionable play like Zorn did, you aren't any worse off with them on the 4 yard line needing a FG, then with them on the 30 yard line following a kickoff, needing a TD. And that's not even considering that they could return the kickoff for a TD, and jump ahead right there.[/quote]

Going it for it was kind of stupid cause a fg could've won the game. I think you've gotta kick it there. But fine, if you want to go for it then have some damn variety in your run game. Everyone knew where the ball was going. I honestly think we need to try the wildcat w/ Betts and Portis. We need to do something, anything at this point to try and score more points.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=30gut;593398]I'm not sure how that author gets the numbers for his 'model' so its hard for me to put much faith in his 'model' but using his own metrics:



[B]All that matters imo are the odds for success of the play at hand [/B]and we went with the lesser option.[/quote]

If that were the case you would call for a one yard dive everytime on 3rd and 10. Why, because it's a 99% chance that you will succeed. You have to look at the what was left to do in order for us to win the game, and if that is your focus, you go for it, don't pass it, and give it to someone who does not fumble(lest you see a fumble return for a td like in last year's st louis game).

If we get the FG, we probably squib kick, but whatever, they have a chance for a decent return, and then they are airing it out, against 2 CBs who had less then stellar days.

I think playing the odds for winning, it was the right call, and really even the play call kept the ball from being put in a precarious situation.

the big IFs in this game if Sellers holds on or DT catches it, or JC doesn't underthrow Kelly.(that still would have been awesome to see him get his first(i believe) NFL TD on a 80ish yard pass play.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=skinsfan69;593400]Going it for it was kind of stupid cause a fg could've won the game. I think you've gotta kick it there. But fine, if you want to go for it then have some damn variety in your run game. Everyone knew where the ball was going. I honestly think we need to try the wildcat w/ Betts and Portis. We need to do something, anything at this point to try and score more points.[/quote]

really a fg there would have won the game. so did we lose because we didn't kick the fg?

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

I agree with Zorn on this one. That was a smart decison. When you take into account the feel of the game. That close to the end zone with Haynesworth on the field is dangerous.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

I'm typically all about being aggressive on the goal line. I think we made a mistake when we kicked the FG early and when we didn't late. Yes, if you get a yard, the game is over. But what gave Zorn any idea that we could get that yard? Fact is, statistics or not, it's important to look at how the game has been going. All it would have taken were 2-3 good completions to put the Rams in FG distance, which is something Bulger can do. Luckily, our D stood up. However, forcing the Rams to get a TD is another story.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=Daseal;593412]I'm typically all about being aggressive on the goal line. I think we made a mistake when we kicked the FG early and when we didn't late. Yes, if you get a yard, the game is over. But what gave Zorn any idea that we could get that yard? Fact is, statistics or not, it's important to look at how the game has been going. All it would have taken were 2-3 good completions to put the Rams in FG distance, which is something Bulger can do. Luckily, our D stood up. However, forcing the Rams to get a TD is another story.[/quote]

Did we run up the middle at all in this game? I mean it seems like all we were doing was running to the left (and we ran to the left on that 4th down).

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=30gut;593398]I'm not sure how that author gets the numbers for his 'model' so its hard for me to put much faith in his 'model' but using his own metrics:



All that matters imo are the odds for success of the play at hand and we went with the lesser option.[/quote]

I think you are totally missing the point. This isn't some fancy statistical theory here. All the calculations are result based. He made the right decision. In that same situation 1000 times we win more games going for it both times than not because the outcome percentages, as long as they hold true, dictate it. All Tripp has shown is the mathematical algorithm that replicates proper human decision making in this situation. Which option gives us the best chance to WIN THE GAME? Going for it did.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

It's always the right decision when it works. This time it worked acording to script, but the fact the Rams had no time-outs left at the time played into Zorn's decision. It may have been the right decision in conjunction with math, but I believe 90% of the coaches in the league would have kcked the FG in that situation.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=skinsfan69;593400][B]Going it for it was kind of stupid cause a fg could've won the game.[/B] I think you've gotta kick it there. But fine, if you want to go for it then have some damn variety in your run game. Everyone knew where the ball was going. I honestly think we need to try the wildcat w/ Betts and Portis. We need to do something, anything at this point to try and score more points.[/quote]

Actually if we had gone for it and converted then we would have won the game, period. Nail in the coffin. Game over.

If we kick the field goal, then we give the ball to the Rams after a kickoff. The Rams could have run the kickoff back for a td. They could have thrown a td pass.

Kicking the field goal would not wrap up the game the way that going for it and getting one yard would have. I personally liked the aggressiveness of the call to just put the game away right then, right there.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

One thing I think we should acknowledge is our defense. That was a prime place for Blache to throw out some serious crap prevent defense and he didn't really. He made sure the secondary didn't let anyone behind them but he still maintained a relatively basic set. It was the right call.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

I don't recall seeing Smoot in the game. I saw Tryon though, any word on that? Anyway, I remember the Leigh Torrece/Avery bomb that beat us last year. I was scurrrrred.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

Going for it on fourth and less than one yard was a good decision. I question the play call. I would like to have seen a quick hitter, quarterback sneak, fullback dive or halfback dive, not a stretch play to the most obvious side.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;593473]I don't recall seeing Smoot in the game. I saw Tryon though, any word on that? Anyway, I remember the Leigh Torrece/Avery bomb that beat us last year. I was scurrrrred.[/quote]

Smoot was inactive...bad back I think??? It was a game time decision.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=30gut;593398]I'm not sure how that author gets the numbers for his 'model' so its hard for me to put much faith in his 'model' but using his own metrics:



All that matters imo are the odds for success of the play at hand and we went with the lesser option.[/quote]

Remedial statistics.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=Daseal;593412]I'm typically all about being aggressive on the goal line. I think we made a mistake when we kicked the FG early and when we didn't late. Yes, if you get a yard, the game is over. But what gave Zorn any idea that we could get that yard? Fact is, statistics or not, it's important to look at how the game has been going. All it would have taken were 2-3 good completions to put the Rams in FG distance, which is something Bulger can do. Luckily, our D stood up. However, forcing the Rams to get a TD is another story.[/quote]You realize that by kicking the FG and making them get a TD instead of a FG, you're giving them 25 yards in the process right? It's a "get off your own goal line free" card. That's not in dispute.

Is it really a different game if they need a TD? Lets say they complete three or four passes and are at the 15 yard line as opposed to the 40 yard line becuase of your decision to kick. Do the Redskins really have a match-up that takes away the final 15 yards on the goal line? Any offense worth it's salt (which may or may not include the Rams) is just going to pump and go Hall for an easy 6.

Your best chance to get the win is, unquestionably, to go for and get the yard. All the statistics show is that, if you happen to fail, the opponent still has a 4/5 chance of losing. It's a free play that should never be passed up.

Of course, the viability of a stretch play where you need half a yard is certainly questionable, and should be questioned. That's a nice play if you have to score, but scoring shouldn't have been the primary goal there.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;593404]really a fg there would have won the game. so did we lose because we didn't kick the fg?[/quote] LOL , nice CRR . I just heard the NFL is considering giving the Rams a (W) and the Skins a (L) , because a fg ,,,, " would " have won the game . The only thing I would have done different had I been Zorn , I would have told the guys , " we are going for it " , if we fail , you are to report to Redskins Park @ 6 am for your wind sprints . We won the game 1-1 -0 , even an ugly win is a win :)

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=Lotus;593432]Actually if we had gone for it and converted then we would have won the game, period. Nail in the coffin. Game over.

If we kick the field goal, then we give the ball to the Rams after a kickoff. The Rams could have run the kickoff back for a td. They could have thrown a td pass.

Kicking the field goal would not wrap up the game the way that going for it and getting one yard would have. I personally liked the aggressiveness of the call to just put the game away right then, right there.[/quote]

I see your point. And I can understand why he went for it. The call to run to the left was pitiful. But still kicking it would've meant STL would have needed a TD w/ no TO's. Yes a run back was possible but some things are less possible.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

I found this interesting.

[url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/redskins/2009/sep/22/zorn-on-radio/]Zorn's job security questioned on his radio show - Redskins 360 - Washington Times[/url]

[quote](On second fourth-down call late in game): "I had three timeouts so I wanted to use one there and take a breath and think about the situation. We felt like we could get the first down and picked out what I felt was the best play, running right behind Chris Samuels. [B]What happened on the line of scrimmage, our offensive line decided to block it out a little more instead of more downhill and it strung the play out. It was a very frustrating play to watch because had we blocked it differently – and it’s their choice – it might have been a different outcome.[/B] If I was to look back on that call, I would call the same play."[/quote]

And then there's this.

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/jason-reid/what-i-think-the-zorn-installm.html]Redskins Insider - What I Think: The Zorn Installment[/url]

[quote]Here's what happened: On fourth and less than one at the 2-yard line late in the fourth quarter, Zorn called a run to the left side. Portis lost two yards, stirring boos in the crowd, and the Rams took over at the 4-yard line trailing, 9-7, with 1 minute 55 seconds remaining in the game.

After four passes fell incomplete, the Redskins regained the ball and ran out the clock for their first victory. Again, though, Zorn's play and Campbell's decision to stick with the call despite the Rams having overloaded that side on defense, appeared to be another example of Zorn's lack of trust in Campbell in the red zone.

Here's what I think: I spoke with several people in the organization about this, because I was perplexed about the decision to stick with that play when I noticed what the Rams were doing defensively.

On that play, Zorn instructed Campbell to run the play he called, several sources said. Despite what some people believe, Campbell does have the authority to change plays, even in the red zone, and he does at times. The deep pass down the right sideline to Malcolm Kelly to open the game stemmed from a call Campbell adjusted at the line of scrimmage.

But there are times Zorn wants to run the play he calls -- and that was one such occasion. Now, here's the rest of the story:[B] the blocking assignments were messed up on the play. Center Casey Rabach made the correct call based on what the Redskins practiced that week, sources said, but someone else made an incorrect call after Rabach. The result was that the play was stretched, which was not Zorn's intention.[/B][/quote]

So who messed up? Upon quick glance it looks like both Dockery and Davis could have been the culprits

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

Nice find SS. There's always more to the story then people think. I think people are jumping the gun on thinking Zorns in over his head.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=GTripp0012;593232]Putting this analysis in layman's terms: if Zorn went to an extreme and took a knee on 4th down, giving the Rams the ball at the 3 yard line and saying, "betcha can't get a FG against our defense", he's actually got a better chance to win that way than to kick the FG (80% vs. 78%). Many coaches would have kicked in that situation, but you can do the math on it ... [U]it's basically a free offensive play, and if you get a yard, the game is over[/U].

If you run a questionable play like Zorn did, you aren't any worse off with them on the 4 yard line needing a FG, then with them on the 30 yard line following a kickoff, needing a TD. And that's not even considering that they could return the kickoff for a TD, and jump ahead right there.[/quote]

Now I know why I saw Zorn with a calculator before deciding to go for it on 4th down he was figuring out the odds on the sidelines. Good job.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=GTripp0012;593232]Putting this analysis in layman's terms: if Zorn went to an extreme and took a knee on 4th down, giving the Rams the ball at the 3 yard line and saying, "betcha can't get a FG against our defense", he's actually got a better chance to win that way than to kick the FG (80% vs. 78%). Many coaches would have kicked in that situation, but you can do the math on it ... [U]it's basically a free offensive play, and if you get a yard, the game is over[/U].

If you run a questionable play like Zorn did, you aren't any worse off with them on the 4 yard line needing a FG, then with them on the 30 yard line following a kickoff, needing a TD. And that's not even considering that they could return the kickoff for a TD, and jump ahead right there.[/quote]

I don't fault Zorn for going for it for that simple reason though I was concerned about the play selection. I much prefer we let them drive 60 yards for a field goal instead of giving them a chance to return the kick for a decent return and have a chance to score a TD from our 50 yrd line.

I mean look at the Dolphins last night...they got a field goal and gave the ball to Manning with time left (not that Mark B. is P. Manning but still wouldn't want to take that chance).

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=SmootSmack;593747]And then there's this.

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/jason-reid/what-i-think-the-zorn-installm.html"]Redskins Insider - What I Think: The Zorn Installment[/URL]

[/quote]This is the biggest problem I have in the article, "Several people have told me Snyder was prepared to fire Zorn if the Redskins had lost to the Philadelphia Eagles in Week 16 at FedEx last season. They won."

If this is true, then LDS shoulders a significant portion of blame here. This is absurd! If I'm Zorn, I'm saying F it. I'm opening up the offense and letting the players either sink-or-swim. If I'm potentially getting axed, I'm going down swinging, while also auditioning for an OC job somewhere else.

I hope this is BS, because if not, Snyder learned nothing from Gibbs and my many defenses of Snyder & the FO have been in vain.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;593770]This is the biggest problem I have in the article, "Several people have told me Snyder was prepared to fire Zorn if the Redskins had lost to the Philadelphia Eagles in Week 16 at FedEx last season. They won."

If this is true, then LDS shoulders a significant portion of blame here. This is absurd! If I'm Zorn, I'm saying F it. I'm opening up the offense and letting the players either sink-or-swim. If I'm potentially getting axed, I'm going down swinging, while also auditioning for an OC job somewhere else.

I hope this is BS, because if not, Snyder learned nothing from Gibbs and my many defenses of Snyder & the FO have been in vain.[/quote]

What's the issue here? That Snyder would have fired Zorn at the end of the year had they lost to the Eagles?

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=SmootSmack;593747]



And then there's this.

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/jason-reid/what-i-think-the-zorn-installm.html"]Redskins Insider - What I Think: The Zorn Installment[/URL]


[/quote]

The bit about Danny Smith having to physically stop Z from calling a timeout is just laughable, and Z's excuse is even worse. His view of the 25 second clock was obscured by a pile of players?? Please.

I agree with SS33. Let it all hang out. Just say "eff it" Zorn. Let 'er rip so to speak. Our defense is damn good, and they've proven it time and again. You've got to average more than 16 points a game to keep your job, and the current playcalling isn't going to get us there offensively.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

It didnt happen so why are we dwelling on it? Now if we lose to the d@mn Lions ill fly to D.C and pack his bags. NO EXCUSE to let a 0-16+ team beat you. We have a good team, let them show it. As a HC its your job to put your players in a position to play to their strengths so the team can be successful.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=DBUCHANON101;593785]It didnt happen so why are we dwelling on it? Now if we lose to the d@mn Lions ill fly to D.C and pack his bags. NO EXCUSE to let a 0-16+ team beat you. We have a good team, let them show it. As a HC its your job to put your players in a position to play to their strengths so the team can be successful.[/quote]

What if we play poorly again, but barely beat the lions by a fg or so?

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=SmootSmack;593781]What's the issue here? That Snyder would have fired Zorn at the end of the year had they lost to the Eagles?[/quote]Yes. I don't think you fire Zorn based on the outcome of one game, that's "rediculous". If you've seen enough and your football people, (hopefully not just Cerrato) are saying this guys not gonna cut it, a W or L in a meaningless game shouldn't make the difference.

That being said, what a horrible message this sends to coaches around the league. DS already bagged Shotty for Spurrier (and we saw how that worked out). Everyone knew he worshipped Gibbs and wouldn't fire him if he was 0-16 in consecutive years. But Gibbs aside, the buzz would be that he's back to the coaching carousel. Less than 12 months prior to the Eagles game Snyder & Cerrato were saying Zorn was going to be a "great coach in this league". Now after a great start and then some OL injuries tank the second half of the season, you're ready to can the guy. This either says the Skins FO has absolutely ZERO football knowledge and should've never hired Zorn or they're just as fickle as a majority of "die hard Skins fans". Either way, it's not a way to run a successful franchise.

For the record, my opinion is Zorn should have at least all of this year before a determination is made on his status in the off-season (or right after the last game if the team completely collapses and he's a primary culprit).

We are going into the third game of the season 1-1, which is exactly where most expected us to be.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=GMScud;593783]The bit about Danny Smith having to physically stop Z from calling a timeout is just laughable, and Z's excuse is even worse. His view of the 25 second clock was obscured by a pile of players?? Please.

I agree with SS33. Let it all hang out. Just say "eff it" Zorn. Let 'er rip so to speak. Our defense is damn good, and they've proven it time and again. You've got to average more than 16 points a game to keep your job, and the current playcalling isn't going to get us there offensively.[/quote]Here's something else that just popped into my head. Who's up in the box on the headset with Zorn? Why is the Special Teams coach needing to tell Zorn to not call the TO. One of the guys up top should've been in his ear way before Smith had to restrain him. Still his mistake, but help from the eye-in-the-sky never hurt.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

Funny. We won the game yet the discussion on every thread is about Zorn's getting fired.

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=jsarno;593800]What if we play poorly again, but barely beat the lions by a fg or so?[/quote]

what if we put up 45 pts.

Jsarno come on stop with the what ifs. please

Re: The only two Good Decisions Jim Zorn Made vs St. Louis
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;593809]Yes. I don't think you fire Zorn based on the outcome of one game, that's "rediculous". If you've seen enough and your football people, (hopefully not just Cerrato) are saying this guys not gonna cut it, a W or L in a meaningless game shouldn't make the difference.

That being said, what a horrible message this sends to coaches around the league. DS already bagged Shotty for Spurrier (and we saw how that worked out). Everyone knew he worshipped Gibbs and wouldn't fire him if he was 0-16 in consecutive years. But Gibbs aside, the buzz would be that he's back to the coaching carousel. Less than 12 months prior to the Eagles game Snyder & Cerrato were saying Zorn was going to be a "great coach in this league". Now after a great start and then some OL injuries tank the second half of the season, you're ready to can the guy. This either says the Skins FO has absolutely ZERO football knowledge and should've never hired Zorn or they're just as fickle as a majority of "die hard Skins fans". Either way, it's not a way to run a successful franchise.

For the record, my opinion is Zorn should have at least all of this year before a determination is made on his status in the off-season (or right after the last game if the team completely collapses and he's a primary culprit).

We are going into the third game of the season 1-1, which is exactly where most expected us to be.[/quote]

Great post Sammy! Can anyone imagine Pittsburgh acting this way? Why can't we be like Pitt and some of the other successful franchises? Here's your answer. I agree, Zorn should be given the whole year and to not do so would just show that DS is just as much a knee-jerk owner as he was when he first bought this team. I can't believe we even talk about this after the 2nd game of the season and a 1-1 record. Would he be fired because we lost to the Giants or because the victory over the Rams wasn't pretty enough? There is a saying, don't quit before the miracle happens, it seems like we always do. I hope we have a big win in Detroit and can put it to rest for awhile at least.