What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

I wanted to start this thread so we could discuss the Skins' Red Zone offense and only the Skins' Red Zone offense because I think that's our primary problem right now.

I'm a fan but I'm no football expert, so I'm hoping that some of the experts here can illuminate what's really going wrong for us in the Red Zone and how it can be fixed.

Would anyone like to take the first shot at it?

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;593396]I wanted to start this thread so we could discuss the Skins' Red Zone offense and only the Skins' Red Zone offense because I think that's our primary problem right now.

I'm a fan but I'm no football expert, so I'm hoping that some of the experts here can illuminate what's really going wrong for us in the Red Zone and how it can be fixed.

Would anyone like to take the first shot at it?[/quote]


Maybe we should drect that question to the coach, and I'm not so sure even he knows. I do know it's a question he's been trying to answer since the midway point of last season, and he's been flooded with since Sunday's game.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;593396]I wanted to start this thread so we could discuss the Skins' Red Zone offense and only the Skins' Red Zone offense because I think that's our primary problem right now.

I'm a fan but I'm no football expert, so I'm hoping that some of the experts here can illuminate what's really going wrong for us in the Red Zone and how it can be fixed.

Would anyone like to take the first shot at it?[/quote]

See Boswell's article in yesterday's Wash Post. It does a pretty good job of answering your question.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

Bad play calling, bad execution. There's no simple answer.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;593405]Bad play calling, bad execution. There's no simple answer.[/quote]

I'll add bad personnel groupings. How have we gone 2 games and not once used Kelly, Thomas, Mitchell, Cooley & Davis as a RZ package? When we trot 3 TE out there that gives away that we're going to run the ball.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Paintrain;593431]I'll add bad personnel groupings. How have we gone 2 games and not once used Kelly, Thomas, Mitchell, Cooley & Davis as a RZ package? When we trot 3 TE out there that gives away that we're going to run the ball.[/quote]

Yeah no doubt. Get all those big targets on the field at once and take your best shot. We have the horses, for whatever reason they're not being used.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;593405]Bad play calling, bad execution. There's no simple answer.[/quote]

Exactly.

I felt like, despite average play calling, we still should be able to execute one of the average calls effectively enough to score.

First, we dropped two probable scores. That's a game changer right there. We're not having the same conversations if even one of those balls is caught. Maybe a little grumbling but not the onslaught of negativity.

Second, only the Portis option was what I consider a bad play call. It was a really low percentage play to begin with so it should never have been called. The other plays were "top of list" plays. Zorn's post game conference gave a small window into their thinking. He commented that the 4th and 1 play at the goal line was their #1 goal line run. Now ignoring the fact that they actually had that ridiculous play as their #1 goal line run you can tell they simply followed script. They take a gander at the list of plays and pick one near the top. What concerns me is that not all goal line situations are the same. So you can't just call your #1 play. You have to consider what the defense has been doing, what you have been doing, how much yardage you need, etc... To me the #1 run there isn't the right call even though it is your default #1 run play on your list. You need 18 inches you go up the gut or simply sneak it. You made that list in your office two days ago. Forget it. It should only be a starting point.

Zorn needs to get more in tune to the game and more reactive to what is happening rather than trying to simply hit the high notes on a checklist of "good plays". Scarp all the pre-game theoretical play calls and figure what is going to work in the situation that is playing out in front of you.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

Jim Zorn.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;593405]Bad play calling, bad execution. There's no simple answer.[/quote]

I can't help but think that there may be a simple answer. That's probably because I experienced the glory days of the Hogs and John Riggins.

I think what we need is a true power runner for goal line situations. If the opposing defense needs to sell out to stop the run, it can't help but open up other plays for the offense. In the glory days, if Riggins and the Hogs didn't run over the defense then Joey T. would kill them on a bootleg.

We all know that we're not going to get a dominant OL overnight, but shouldn't we leave no stone unturned to acquire a true power runner ASAP? That would have to help. Please don't ask me where to find that power runner; that's Vinny's job. I don't care where or how he does it - I just think he needs to get it done, [U]now[/U].

True power running and JC running bootlegs - that's my thinking. I think JC would do a darn good job running a bootleg with a run or pass option.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;593451]Jim Zorn.[/quote]

I think the point of this thread is to be a little more detailed than that.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

Jim Zorn. HB pass in the red zone! Please keep it basic run, run, run, from DIFFERENT FORMATIONS then playaction pass. Keep it simple Joe Gibbs style.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;593405]Bad play calling, bad execution. There's no simple answer.[/quote]


The 3rd down call when Zorn opted for an option pass with Portis throwing, it was interesting to note Sonny Jurgensens' take. Sonny said he would have either called an audible, or called time-out. Zorn's reply was, he would have taken him out of the game too. Sorry Sonny.......

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

The red zone offense is very problematic. We should have put 28 on the board against the Lambs.

That said, if red zone offense is our biggest problem, there is reason for optimism. This situation beats the heck out of never getting to the red zone.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Paintrain;593431]I'll add bad personnel groupings. How have we gone 2 games and not once used Kelly, Thomas, Mitchell, Cooley & Davis as a RZ package? When we trot 3 TE out there that gives away that we're going to run the ball.[/quote]

Well, we wouldn't want to go to just the shotgun... that would let them know we intended to pass. <sarcasm>

Just to be clear -I agree with your sentiment.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=FRPLG;593440]Exactly.

I felt like, despite average play calling, we still should be able to execute one of the average calls effectively enough to score.

First, we dropped two probable scores. That's a game changer right there. We're not having the same conversations if even one of those balls is caught. Maybe a little grumbling but not the onslaught of negativity.

Second, only the Portis option was what I consider a bad play call. It was a really low percentage play to begin with so it should never have been called. The other plays were "top of list" plays. Zorn's post game conference gave a small window into their thinking. He commented that the 4th and 1 play at the goal line was their #1 goal line run. Now ignoring the fact that they actually had that ridiculous play as their #1 goal line run you can tell they simply followed script. They take a gander at the list of plays and pick one near the top. What concerns me is that not all goal line situations are the same. So you can't just call your #1 play. You have to consider what the defense has been doing, what you have been doing, how much yardage you need, etc... To me the #1 run there isn't the right call even though it is your default #1 run play on your list. You need 18 inches you go up the gut or simply sneak it. You made that list in your office two days ago. Forget it. It should only be a starting point.

Zorn needs to get more in tune to the game and more reactive to what is happening rather than trying to simply hit the high notes on a checklist of "good plays". Scarp all the pre-game theoretical play calls and figure what is going to work in the situation that is playing out in front of you.[/quote]
Bam! You hit the nail right on the head!

Zorn needs to be more in tune with the game situation.

You do not call a halfback option pass on 3rd and 8 yards to go. No defense in it's right mind is looking for a run on 3rd and 8. If you are running the ball well, that play works on first down, maybe second down but not third down when you have to convert. That was a bad call, I don't care what Zorn says.

The situation is 4th and less than a yard. To me, the smart call is run a quick running play. Do not give the defense an opportunity for penetration. Any slow developing play, has a potential for negative yards, not advisable in this situation. You have a 6' 5" 230 lb quarterback, how about a quarterback sneak, that should get a 1/2 yard.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;593439]Yeah no doubt. Get all those big targets on the field at once and take your best shot. We have the horses, for whatever reason they're not being used.[/quote]

Im tired of seeing two TE's and Moss split wide at the 5 yard line. Why did we get these big receivers if we arent gonna use them? The fact that we cannot run right sure hurts when we get down there as well. Zorn is the biggest problem IMO, but he is too busy defending his calling a RB pass from the 7 yard line.....what a dumbass!

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=hail_2_da_skins;593469]Bam! You hit the nail right on the head!

Zorn needs to be more in tune with the game situation.

You do not call a halfback option pass on 3rd and 8 yards to go. No defense in it's right mind is looking for a run on 3rd and 8. If you are running the ball well, that play works on first down, maybe second down but not third down when you have to convert. That was a bad call, I don't care what Zorn says.

The situation is 4th and less than a yard. To me, the smart call is run a quick running play. Do not give the defense an opportunity for penetration. Any slow developing play, has a potential for negative yards, not advisable in this situation. You have a 6' 5" 230 lb quarterback, how about a quarterback sneak, that should get a 1/2 yard.[/quote]

My sentiments exactly....Sure you're not a football player on this team, sounds like players talking among themselves.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=roth74va;593470]Im tired of seeing two TE's and Moss split wide at the 5 yard line. Why did we get these big receivers if we arent gonna use them? The fact that we cannot run right sure hurts when we get down there as well. Zorn is the biggest problem IMO, but he is too busy defending his calling a RB pass from the 7 yard line.....what a dumbass![/quote]

He's too busy thinking...

It seems we also call a lot of plays, on both sides of the ball, that require far too much exact execution, to succeed. Maybe it isn't reasonable to expect 100% proper technique and execution play after play. Maybe working some plays/schemes in there that allow a little more wiggle room could help. Like I don't know, roll the f*cking QB out once in a while to give the play time to develop. Stop being a slave to the WC theory...or whatever theory.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

Redskins are 19th in total offense right in front of the Bears. Skins are 18th in the run and 18th in the pass. Jim Zorn needs to figure if he wants to be a running team or a passing team. I suggest Run that how we were 6-2 last running. Running less that 30 times a game is not going to get it.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Green1;593476]Redskins are 19th in total offense right in front of the Bears. Skins are 18th in the run and 18th in the pass. Jim Zorn needs to figure if he wants to be a running team or a passing team. I suggest Run that how we were 6-2 last running. Running less that 30 times a game is not going to get it.[/quote]

We haven't been able to consistently run the ball all pre-season or in the first two games.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Green1;593476]Redskins are 19th in total offense right in front of the Bears. Skins are 18th in the run and 18th in the pass. Jim Zorn needs to figure if he wants to be a running team or a passing team. I suggest Run that how we were 6-2 last running. Running less that 30 times a game is not going to get it.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree, we are built to be a passing team right now. The O-line opened 1 run for CP against the Giants, but did much better against a pathetic Rams team. If we wanted to run the ball, we draft 3 lineman in the 2nd round two years ago. Where is this dynamic, high-scoring offense they talked about when Zorn was hired? Its a passing league, running the ball and good defense isnt gonna cut it, not if we want to be a real contender.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

Is this a rhetorical question? We can't get TDs. This isn't rocket science. For all of these fancy shmancy schemes and what not, at the end of the day a guy runs or catches a ball in the end zone.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;593531]Is this a rhetorical question? We can't get TDs. This isn't rocket science. For all of these fancy shmancy schemes and what not, at the end of the day a guy runs or catches a ball in the end zone.[/quote]

Yes but "why isn't it happening" is the point of the thread.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

Teams stop us from scoring. It is as simple as that. Whether it's talent, mental toughness, play-calling, we'll never know. We're not on the sideline and don't know what's going on within the orginization. I know that we deal in a lot of speculation on the board sometimes but I'm pissed that we're not scoring.

People ask why JR doesn't win races. I say it's simple, it's JR. Does he have a coke problem? Would he rather be fishing? What's the price of rice in China?

I don't know, don't care, couldn't give a eff. Put up or shut up! This isn't aimed at any poster on the board. This is just where I'm at as a fan. I'm not the only one either.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;593396]I wanted to start this thread so we could discuss the Skins' Red Zone offense and only the Skins' Red Zone offense because I think that's our primary problem right now.

I'm a fan but I'm no football expert, so I'm hoping that some of the experts here can illuminate what's really going wrong for us in the Red Zone and how it can be fixed.

Would anyone like to take the first shot at it?[/quote]
Many have already brought this up....Simplify.

-Often the most boring playcall is the most effective, B-gap ISO between Samuels & Dock. It's pretty easy to call a formation that makes the D give you the look you want. If they cheat to that gap, they've left the strong-side open, take it. You have a 280lb. Pro Bowl FB, let him clear the way. Folks see this once or twice and you've got a nice play-action set up.

- I don't think a Power back would've made any difference. Zone Blocking should not be called on the GL IMO. It requires a lateral step rather than "firing out". The D is bringing it down there and taking a lateral step will often cause the OL to get pushed into the backfield. On the last 4th down play this is exactly what happened to Dock. If you let Samuels & Dock fire out, they'll get a push, or at worst a stalemate, 9 times out of 10.

- Fade??? Why isn't it being called. In training camp I watched at least a 15 minute period where they ran nothing but fades. You're paying these big WRs to make plays, give them the shot. If they don't get it done, at least you know you need to find other WRs.

- QB sneak, if the C & Gs can't get a 1/2 yd, you don't deserve to win.

- Playcalling sequence. Play-action has to come on first down,or short yardage.

- Kelly & DT or Mitchell need to be on the outside in any GL package. The threat of a fade spreads the D, even if just a little and creates extra space.

- I don't know if Zorn allows JC to audible in the +10 or JC's just not doing it. Whatever the case, JC must have the ability to audible down there, and must do it.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;593540]Many have already brought this up....Simplify.

-Often the most boring playcall is the most effective, B-gap ISO between Samuels & Dock. It's pretty easy to call a formation that makes the D give you the look you want. If they cheat to that gap, they've left the strong-side open, take it. You have a 280lb. Pro Bowl FB, let him clear the way. Folks see this once or twice and you've got a nice play-action set up.

- I don't think a Power back would've made any difference. Zone Blocking should not be called on the GL IMO. It requires a lateral step rather than "firing out". The D is bringing it down there and taking a lateral step will often cause the OL to get pushed into the backfield. On the last 4th down play this is exactly what happened to Dock. If you let Samuels & Dock fire out, they'll get a push, or at worst a stalemate, 9 times out of 10.

- Fade??? Why isn't it being called. In training camp I watched at least a 15 minute period where they ran nothing but fades. You're paying these big WRs to make plays, give them the shot. If they don't get it done, at least you know you need to find other WRs.

- QB sneak, if the C & Gs can't get a 1/2 yd, you don't deserve to win.

- Playcalling sequence. Play-action has to come on first down,or short yardage.

- Kelly & DT or Mitchell need to be on the outside in any GL package. The threat of a fade spreads the D, even if just a little and creates extra space.

- I don't know if Zorn allows JC to audible in the +10 or JC's just not doing it. Whatever the case, JC must have the ability to audible down there, and must do it.[/quote]

Great post!

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

almost seems like Zorn was trying to get CP involved at all cost. How many games have you ever seen in which the team is in the red zone 4 times w/no TDs yet you can't blame the QB? (rationally, anyway)

Not just the option call, but in general, give JC a chance to get it in the end zone. Throwing on 1st down was a big part of the drives, keep it up in the r. zone. Even the most powerful running teams can't power it in w/a 2 TE set from 7 to 8 yrds. out.

Of course, Sellers & Dt could've made those plays. And if Orakpo didn't get that p. foul call, we might've taken it in for 6 & changed the game to a blowout.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=irish;593402]See Boswell's article in yesterday's Wash Post. It does a pretty good job of answering your question.[/quote]Boswells' article doesn't answer anything, it's simply a summation of what's happened. No suggestions, no solutions, generalizations. He's a writer, writers write. I'd rather have someone providing suggestions/solutions rather than equating the Skins to the mule vs. a thoroughbred. As a fan of the Skins it's pretty insulting, but that's standard WP fare.

A couple of thoughts on the article:
- As a player who really gives a flying "F" what the fans or media think. All that matters is getting wins and what the coaches & owner thinks.

-From the article: "Get better again?
Actually, the Redskins -- especially Zorn's offense -- haven't improved at all, instead falling backwards since midseason last year. Once again, just as in '08, Zorn's biggest problem is the inability of his offensive coordinator to design plays, then call them appropriately, to score inside the 20-yard line. But Zorn is essentially his own final word on all offensive matters. So why yell at his team until he finishes berating himself?"

This is why the players, coaches and owner shouldn't give a flying "F" what the media thinks, because outside of the better analysts, they know next to nothing about what it takes to execute in a football game and they only speak/write in general terms and make assumptions that are often wrong. The Skins' biggest problem on offense in the second half of 2008 was injuries on the OL (which we only found out the true extent of after the season) not RZ playcalling.

- From the article: "In the most vivid symbol of his frustration, Zorn made as dubious a decision as you'll see, going for it on fourth and one at the Rams 2 with two minutes remaining. The conventional -- some would say "sane" -- reasoning is that you take the easy field goal for a five-point lead and force your foe to go all the way for a touchdown to win. Why get stopped, surrender the ball and risk losing the game on a long field goal -- which statistically is far easier to get than a touchdown in a short amount of time."

Maybe Boswell should read Warpath and get some real statistical analysis on that playcall, which was correct.

- Boswell putting the blame on JC for this???? Yes I understand the % of TD passes stat, but it's not like JC is missing throws consistently. The coaches calling the plays down there have a lot more to do with this stat than any inefficiencies by JC.

- No tall, talented WR. Kelly, Thomas, Mitchell come to mind as being big enough, Zorn needs to find out if they're "talented" enough. Give them a shot at the fades.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

My feelings on whats wrong with the red zone offense are summed up nicely here:

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/21/AR2009092103450.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

[quote]For Jim Zorn, there is [I]always an explanation [/I]for why a specific play didn't work, and each day that follows a game during the Redskins' season, he spends time investigating the particulars on every snap...

...During his tenure overseeing the Redskins' offense, [I]Zorn has professed confidence in his ability as a play-caller[/I], even though he had never held the job in the NFL before Washington hired him from the Seattle Seahawks, where he had served as quarterbacks coach under offensive whiz Mike Holmgren.[/quote]

Zorn's dellusional. He thinks he's a good play-caller, when he's not.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;593439]Yeah no doubt. Get all those big targets on the field at once and take your best shot. We have the horses, for whatever reason they're not being used.[/quote]

I agree. We were longing for some tall receivers for the redzone for years. Now that we have them we dont use them. Doesn't make any sense. We have 3 receivers over 6'2. 2 Good tight ends. I just dont get it. But I am not a coach. Hopefully Zorn figures it out. But Gibbs couldn't even figure it out. But we do need our O-line to make some holes down there.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

poor execution, lack of creativity, a coach that is scared of turnovers, a QB that is terrified to make his coaches' turnover nightmare's come true, a lack of a dominant line, etc.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;593566]My feelings on whats wrong with the red zone offense are summed up nicely here:

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/21/AR2009092103450.html"]washingtonpost.com[/URL]



Zorn's dellusional. He thinks he's a good play-caller, when he's not.[/quote]You don't have four drives of 13+ plays and one of 9 plays and convert 46% of 3rd downs by being a bad playcaller.

This quote in the article is the most important, "
"We have to pay attention to the detail of the work," Zorn said. "That is what it's going to take for us to continue to improve."

Zorn must look at his calls in the RZ and make the adjustments. Zorn must do his part to put the players in the right position to be successful and not be afraid to let them be successful...or fail.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;593566]My feelings on whats wrong with the red zone offense are summed up nicely here:

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/21/AR2009092103450.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]



Zorn's dellusional. He thinks he's a good play-caller, when he's not.[/quote]

If Sellers could catch the damn ball, Zorn looks like a much better play caller.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

My short list of red zone things we never try:

1. QB roll out.

2. Quick Slant where the receiver catches the ball right at the goaline.

3. Any patterns where the receivers route ends at the BACK OF THE GOAL LINE!(this is the most telling one IMO it's a very effective play that we see happen all over the league on Sundays. Either you find the man or the ball goes out the other side end of story it's low risk and very hard to defend when done right. We never never never try it)

4. THE FADE!

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[QUOTE=Lotus;593587]If Sellers could catch the damn ball, Zorn looks like a much better play caller.[/QUOTE]

Sellers [I]or[/I] Thomas

but still, I have heard of this thing called a "Fade Route". I am unsure it is known in these parts.... but I hear tell of its success on other fields.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Lotus;593587]If Sellers could catch the damn ball, Zorn looks like a much better play caller.[/quote]

By how much though? If you take away one field goal and replace with a TD and extra point we score 13 points. If I remember correctly we had 5 red zone trips. At the very least we should have had 27 points.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;593540]I don't think a Power back would've made any difference.[/quote]

Maybe not, if Zorn continues to run the wrong type of plays, but what if Zorn were to run better plays [U]and[/U] we had a big back? It would have to help us.

I just don't understand why we have four RB's with basically the same skill set, none of whom is a short yardage maven. I'm convinced that we need a big back and better play-calling in the Red Zone.

Wouldn't be nice to see a big back on our team run somebody over at the goal line? Touchdown, Washington Redskins!

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;593595]By how much though? If you take away one field goal and replace with a TD and extra point we score 13 points. If I remember correctly we had 5 red zone trips. At the very least we should have had 27 points.[/quote]

5 was counting the kneel-down possession at the end correct? So it was really 4?

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

[quote=roth74va;593601]5 was counting the kneel-down possession at the end correct? So it was really 4?[/quote]

If that's the case then I lower my minimum acceptable score to 24 points.

Re: What's wrong with our Red Zone offense?
 

I think the answer keeps hitting us in the face. When the Giants played us they kept all their defensive lineman and LB lined up between the tackles prior to ball snap. When we played the Rams they did the same thing. Why? cause everyone knows 90% of our runs go between the tackles. All they have to do is load up the middle and stuff the lanes. When the Giants played against Dallas they only kept 3 D-lineman between the tackles. They usually had one DE at each tackle position and one DL floating between them lining up. I believe it was to contain the outside run, but due to this Dallas ran all day up the middle even walked in for a TD. Even Romo ran one up the middle.

Zorn either figures out a way to stretch the other teams defense out or we will see more games like these last two. Hell put 4 WR's in spread them out and run the ball. Even it it's a QB run.